Glassdoor Statistics for Physicians Assistant

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BioDoc

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Hi I was checking out Glassdoor and recognized something interesting when comparing the job statistics for PA's for 2016 and 2015.

In 2015:
PA's were Ranked #1 for the Best Jobs in America

https://www.glassdoor.com/Best-Jobs-in-America-2015-LST_KQ0,25.htm

Job Openings 45,484
Median Base Salary $111,376
Career Opportunity 3.5
Job Score 4.8

In 2016:
PA's Ranked #7 for Best Jobs in America

https://www.glassdoor.com/Best-Jobs-in-America-LST_KQ0,20.htm

Job Openings 3,364
Median Base Salary $97,000
Career Opportunity 3.3
Job Score 4.5

I am just curious how the Job Openings could decrease from 45,484 to 3,364 in one year. Is the field getting saturated that fast? Or is the statistics just BS?

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This scares me...I hope someone can explain it for us.


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Hi I was checking out Glassdoor and recognized something interesting when comparing the job statistics for PA's for 2016 and 2015.

In 2015:
PA's were Ranked #1 for the Best Jobs in America

https://www.glassdoor.com/Best-Jobs-in-America-2015-LST_KQ0,25.htm

Job Openings 45,484
Median Base Salary $111,376
Career Opportunity 3.5
Job Score 4.8

In 2016:
PA's Ranked #7 for Best Jobs in America

https://www.glassdoor.com/Best-Jobs-in-America-LST_KQ0,20.htm

Job Openings 3,364
Median Base Salary $97,000
Career Opportunity 3.3
Job Score 4.5

I am just curious how the Job Openings could decrease from 45,484 to 3,364 in one year. Is the field getting saturated that fast? Or is the statistics just BS?

Sounds like BS. If you click the PA link, it lists like 11,000 jobs. I wouldn't be worried.
 
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The reason for the decline in PA job openings is that Nurse Practitioners are now the most highly favored choice by Hospitals and clinics. PAs are too expensive in terms of cost per order dollar. The reason is that PAs are tied at the waist to their Physician Supervisors in a one to one ratio. So the overhead of the Physician is applied to the PA when calculating cost per order dollar. The nurse practitioner is independent in the Federal Government (DOC and VA) and independent in 23 of 50 states (the ones that matter). In less than three years, Nurse Practitioners will be independent in all 50 states. In some states now, the Doctor of Nurse Practitioner supervises the PA so not only are the number of jobs decrease but salaries of falling dramatically. There are still a lot of people on forums (especially Physician Assistant Forum) pumping the stock of the PA but these are mostly insiders who are benefiting by new entrants into the field. It is sort of like a Ponzi scheme. The ones at the top keep hyping the message so unwitting souls enter at the bottom and spend 200K on a career that will evaporate in ten years. The only real winners over the next decade are the NCCPA, AAPA and the PA programs that are growing unbounded by any regulations. Today, a community college in Podunk USA can hang a sign that says "PA Program" and hire a part time faculty member to 30K. They charge 40 students 50K for two years. Revenues bump by four million dollars annually and the costs are virtually nil. There is a real scam in the PA profession but the voices of caution are being drowned out by the frenzy. Remember the meaning and significance of "irrational exuberance." Student in college should be going to get the RN, then NP, then DNP. Save money by getting state school tuition, be able to keep your job and study and never reboard after passing the exams and enjoy 50 state independence. If you don't see who the winners are here, you are not looking.
 
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OP: garbage data in, garbage data out. I've never heard of "glassdoor", and I'm guessing they simply pull a few metrics from other data sources and publish them as clickbait.

Meanwhile, Overthehorizen jumps on this to underscore his doom & gloom, "the sky is falling", mantra.

These stats are BS.

The PA profession faces challenges, but is growing steadily and still struggles to fill the need.
 
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Glassdoor is a jobs website. It's actually pretty well known. I've found a lot of its info on nursing wages and other info pretty accurate. That said, it's not come up n conversation that anyone I know has used it, but that doesn't mean much because n=1 there. That said, you have to understand that the person or people running the site aren't PA-centric, they are "show up to work and compile massive amounts of information-centric". It's probably even more accurate to say that glassdoor employees are "figure out a one sized fits all algorithm for all occupations that automatically utilizes BLS labor data so it's cheap-centric". I initially thought that from the looks of the it, the 3,500 job openings seemed like the number of PAs that graduate per year, but there are actually about twice as many. I don't know if there are 45,000 job openings for PAs, or instead are 45,000 positions that a PA would be suited for, but whatever is happening at glassdoor probably is a glitch, or like boatswain said ... Bad data. Most likely a combination of lazy analysis by someone who probably gets paid by the edit.
 
As bullish as I am about the NP field, I'm still not nearly as bearish as overthehorizon is on the future of PAs, but I agree with almost all of his points, albeit with dialed down intensity. He's a PA, and I'm just an NP student, so maybe he sees some things I don't. I changed course from Pre PA to Nursing based on a lot of the kinds of issues he highlights.... periodic retesting, dependence on supervising physicians, and other things he mentions on the PA forums that generally go unheeded by many of his peers. He speaks to things that I was uncomfortable with about the PA profession's status that stuck in my mind as I was preparing to go that route. I still very much respect the excellent training that most PAs have and feel like it's a shame that they don't have the professional role that they deserve.

Nursing manages to add on average two states to the independant practice column per year, so that puts them on course for all 50 states in about 12 years or so, which is impressive considering PAs enjoy the kind of independence that NPs have in a grand total of zero states. However, I think that some states will have to wait a long time to get NP independence due to resistance from entrenched physician interests.

Another reason I'm a little short on the notion of NPs having runaway success is that the same people that brought the profession to the place it is today (intense, ideology driven advocates in the nursing world) have other goals in mind than just advancing the profession for the individual nurses' sake, and I think those goals will inevitably interfere with my hopes for the field. Many of them see progress as a multi pronged approach to advance social justice, which I think is a recipe for problems down the road if we want to be paid well. Yes, I would like to see NP's be independent in all states and institutions. Yes I want good wages. But no, I don't want nursing unions to dominate the healthcare workforce. No, I don't want nationalized healthcare. But the political beasts among nursing advocates want nursing to have a powerful voice, so they can sneak in all the other goodies that align with their world view. I'm not sure that they are interested in nurses and NPs maintaining a high wage unless it comes as a result of unions granting that instead of the market. I also feel like flooding the market with nurses might be something that they approve of to get numbers for their armies of advocates, wages be damned.

As a PA, I would be really concerned with the new breed of PA hitting the professional job market for the first time. For many among the current flock, it's the first job they will have that pays more than minimum wage. The average demographic niche that current graduates exist as are young, intelligent females with little life experience to speak of outside of their life as a college student. I heard a physician say that he thought in 10 years PAs will be all over the place and will work for the equivalent of $65,000 a year in today's dollars. That's a guy who hires PAs (and reportedly pays them poorly. But I don't really see that happening either, but it's telling that the new crop of PAs are well known to be green as far as I wing their value and insisting on it. But that goes back to dependence. I'm not even swayed by those that say that the new practice dynamics emerging (where physicians are more frequently becoming employees of bigger systems instead of owners of practice groups) will benefit PAs and lead to advancement. In that scenario, hospital owned groups aren't going to be interested in promoting any approach where PAs come away with more than what they have right now. I actually see the new environment as worse for them.

None of that has to do with glassdoor, but was sparked by overthehorizon's statement. I think that there are plenty of good jobs out there right now, and I don't see that changing any time soon, at least not in a way that is immediately apparent. And my apocalyptic view of the situation for PAs may never come to pass, but I share a lot of overthehorizon's concerns to the point that I changed course. I want to be my own man.
 
The reason for the decline in PA job openings is that Nurse Practitioners are now the most highly favored choice by Hospitals and clinics. PAs are too expensive in terms of cost per order dollar. The reason is that PAs are tied at the waist to their Physician Supervisors in a one to one ratio. So the overhead of the Physician is applied to the PA when calculating cost per order dollar. The nurse practitioner is independent in the Federal Government (DOC and VA) and independent in 23 of 50 states (the ones that matter). In less than three years, Nurse Practitioners will be independent in all 50 states. In some states now, the Doctor of Nurse Practitioner supervises the PA so not only are the number of jobs decrease but salaries of falling dramatically. There are still a lot of people on forums (especially Physician Assistant Forum) pumping the stock of the PA but these are mostly insiders who are benefiting by new entrants into the field. It is sort of like a Ponzi scheme. The ones at the top keep hyping the message so unwitting souls enter at the bottom and spend 200K on a career that will evaporate in ten years. The only real winners over the next decade are the NCCPA, AAPA and the PA programs that are growing unbounded by any regulations. Today, a community college in Podunk USA can hang a sign that says "PA Program" and hire a part time faculty member to 30K. They charge 40 students 50K for two years. Revenues bump by four million dollars annually and the costs are virtually nil. There is a real scam in the PA profession but the voices of caution are being drowned out by the frenzy. Remember the meaning and significance of "irrational exuberance." Student in college should be going to get the RN, then NP, then DNP. Save money by getting state school tuition, be able to keep your job and study and never reboard after passing the exams and enjoy 50 state independence. If you don't see who the winners are here, you are not looking.

Part of me wonders are you truly a PA. I've never seen a PA so out of touch with reality.

I do agree about some issues with PA education as well as price but your other points seem pretty outlandish....

Also I think providers need to take recertification exams to make sure they remain competent. Let me ask did you pass your most recent PANRE on the 1st attempt.


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Part of me wonders are you truly a PA. I've never seen a PA so out of touch with reality.

I do agree about some issues with PA education as well as price but your other points seem pretty outlandish....

Also I think providers need to take recertification exams to make sure they remain competent. Let me ask did you pass your most recent PANRE on the 1st attempt.


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When the person in a debate is unable to address the arguments put forth by the opposing side, the only thing left to do is discredit the speaker. Did I pass my boards? Yes to the PANCE on first try. No difficulty. Yes to the PANRE on first try with no dificulty (in three hours; four hours allowed). The argument is not whether I passed. It is whether the preparation and writing of the board exam benefits the patient or the profession. NPs are regarded by legislators and the public as highly prized and competent provider yet they never reboard. The PA profession keeps trying to sell something that doesn't sell.

I have asked the contributors to the PA forum to disclose if they have any relationships (paid or unpaid) with the NCCPA, AAPA or a PA Program when they post their comments. The moderators refuse to enforce this policy. They do ban PAs who criticize the profession. By inference, one can conclude the moderators and contributors are largely beneficiaries of pumping the stock of the PA.
 
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When the person in a debate is unable to address the arguments put forth by the opposing side, the only thing left to do is discredit the speaker. Did I pass my boards? Yes to the PANCE on first try. No difficulty. Yes to the PANRE on first try with no dificulty (in three hours; four hours allowed). The argument is not whether I passed. It is whether the preparation and writing of the board exam benefits the patient or the profession. NPs are regarded by legislators and the public as highly prized and competent provider yet they never reboard. The PA profession keeps trying to sell something that doesn't sell.

I have asked the contributors to the PA forum to disclose if they have any relationships (paid or unpaid) with the NCCPA, AAPA or a PA Program when they post their comments. The moderators refuse to enforce this policy. They do ban PAs who criticize the profession. By inference, one can conclude the moderators and contributors are largely beneficiaries of pumping the stock of the PA.

There is a pro medicine, anti nurse agenda in these forums. I'm glad you're pointing out the hypocracy.

My personal opinion is some physicians will always hire PAs even if it makes their lives slightly harder due to their dislike of NP encroachment. That's their right. Many, many physicians understand that they are and will always be the pinnacle of medicine, and choose to embrace and improve the NPs they work with.

In a year when I graduate NP school I care much less about what speciality I work in then having a positive and supportive physician who embraces how I can help him/her and is motivated to teach and invest in me.
 
Interestingly in the 2017 glassdoor survey PA is no longer in the top 50 while NP has risen to 15...


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That is for "Highest Paying Jobs" ranking list. In this thread we were talking about the "Best job in America List". Glassdoor really like their ranking lists.

https://www.glassdoor.com/List/Best-Jobs-in-America-LST_KQ0,20.htm

The methodology that Glassdoor uses for this list uses a score based on three factors: Earning potential; Job satisfaction; Number of job openings.

Checking the last three years you can see PA fell down the ranks and in 2017 was not listed at all. Meanwhile NP has risen each year.

So what does this mean? Not sure it means anything on its own just another data point. Add it to the pile along with other data points such as anecdotes of PAs not being hired due to system preference for NPs, The VA system separating NPs from PAs, State legislatures granting NPs more freedoms in the workplace.

Long term does the healthcare landscape need two competing advanced practice practitioner (or whatever label you prefer) professions? Will both NP and PA survive? Or will market forces push one into obsolescence?
 
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Its hard to draw conclusions from all the lists out there on their own, but I am sensing that there is a change taking place in the midlevel market in favor of NP's, albeit subtle. If either PA or NP were to be thrown into obsolescence, I'd have to say the easier one for the industry to shed would be PA, but to me that is a huge stretch. I think NPs are positioning themselves as the first midlevel that one thinks of when imagining a midlevel. Unfortunately, NP's are providing a bit of an unforced error by trying to transition NP education to be exclusively DNP and forgoing the masters degree. That's mostly a problem if the masters degree goes away altogether (I don't think its a good idea to make it take 3 or more years of education to be the threshold for entry into the non-physician provider market... because then you might as well do medical school). But I also feel like the DNP itself is one of the reasons NP's are going to have a leg up over PA's. It won't be because every NP is a DNP, it will be because the folks who pursue DNP vs masters level will be the ones doing the most promotion of the NP realm. They will be the folks showing up to lobby, getting into positions of influence in industry that are reserved exclusively for "nurses", etc. If the nursing education industry is wise, they will keep avenues open to get NPs through the pipeline fairly easy with the masters degree option, and have the DNP available for the movers and shakers who will be seen in the corporate boardrooms.

There are a lot of PA schools, and plenty of PA's, so I don't see them disappearing like I think AA's will. PAs will certainly proliferate. What I do see is that physicians, groups, and facilities will ask themselves why they don't have more control over a dependent provider in their early 20's with no work experience, and pay them less and less over time. Why not for NP's too? Independence and the fact that they are plugged in to policy by virtue of their direct lineage to nursing... the largest single workforce group in healthcare.
 
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A few other things to consider:
there are a huge # of PA residencies in almost every field with more opening every year. docs and folks who hire like this. there are 30 in EM alone, many in surgery, etc
2 new postgraduate programs are opening this year that will grant PAs a DMSc degree. this is on top of the many PAs pursuing other doctorates like DHSc, EdD, DrPH, PhD, etc. As a profession I think PAs will come around to the doctorate standard within a decade. I think within 20 years the standard will be an entry level doctorate followed by a required 1 year postgrad residency in a specialty. I think the model of pa as generalist will go away.
This year the AAPA will officially support a resolution for full practice authority and responsibility at their annual meeting in May. Michigan has already adopted a law stating physicians are not responsible for the PAs they work with. this will will be popular and will spread.
I think both careers have a bright future. when folks ask me which to pursue I generally advise them based on the field they see themselves going into as each profession has a lock on certain specialties. sure an NP can work in surgery or a PA can work in the nicu, but it's easier if you go into a field recognized for filling that niche.
 
A few other things to consider:
there are a huge # of PA residencies in almost every field with more opening every year. docs and folks who hire like this. there are 30 in EM alone, many in surgery, etc
2 new postgraduate programs are opening this year that will grant PAs a DMSc degree. this is on top of the many PAs pursuing other doctorates like DHSc, EdD, DrPH, PhD, etc. As a profession I think PAs will come around to the doctorate standard within a decade. I think within 20 years the standard will be an entry level doctorate followed by a required 1 year postgrad residency in a specialty. I think the model of pa as generalist will go away.
This year the AAPA will officially support a resolution for full practice authority and responsibility at their annual meeting in May. Michigan has already adopted a law stating physicians are not responsible for the PAs they work with. this will will be popular and will spread.
I think both careers have a bright future. when folks ask me which to pursue I generally advise them based on the field they see themselves going into as each profession has a lock on certain specialties. sure an NP can work in surgery or a PA can work in the nicu, but it's easier if you go into a field recognized for filling that niche.

If PAs are getting doctorates, why are they not going to medical school?
 
you could ask the DNPs the same question....every other profession that do something similar to what we do is going to the doctoral standard. yes, it's degree creep, but we have to do it. It will also produce better faculty in the long run and more respect from patients and other staff.
I have a doctorate, but don't introduce myself as Dr Emedpa. I have PA, DHSc on my lab coat. when folks ask I explain that I have an academic doctorate in global health and created a system for managing hypertension in a rural area in Haiti.
Most patients don't even bother to ask , so they don't know. Most of the professional staff I work with knows about my doctorate because they were aware as I was going through classes or have followed my medical missions work over the last 8 years. It has definitely helped with the respect issue on the professional front. I think the days of PAs being generalists and having lateral mobility are going away. The NPs do a lot of things well. among those things are sticking to a single area of specialization and advancing their academic standards. PAs are just starting to take a lesson from them with positive results.
 
you could ask the DNPs the same question....every other profession that do something similar to what we do is going to the doctoral standard. yes, it's degree creep, but we have to do it. It will also produce better faculty in the long run and more respect from patients and other staff.
I have a doctorate, but don't introduce myself as Dr Emedpa. I have PA, DHSc on my lab coat. when folks ask I explain that I have an academic doctorate in global health and created a system for managing hypertension in a rural area in Haiti.
Most patients don't even bother to ask , so they don't know. Most of the professional staff I work with knows about my doctorate because they were aware as I was going through classes or have followed my medical missions work over the last 8 years. It has definitely helped with the respect issue on the professional front. I think the days of PAs being generalists and having lateral mobility are going away. The NPs do a lot of things well. among those things are sticking to a single area of specialization and advancing their academic standards. PAs are just starting to take a lesson from them with positive results.

I agree that having doctoral preparation will improve the PA profession. I'm mostly making a not so subtle point about all the DNP hate that's spread all over this forum.
 
I agree that having doctoral preparation will improve the PA profession. I'm mostly making a not so subtle point about all the DNP hate that's spread all over this forum.
Well, you see, when NPs get doctorates it is because they are evil. When PAs do it, it's simply to keep up with everyone else., I mean thy basically have to do it. Get it?

/s
 
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I agree that specialization seems to be the going trend among PA practice, but I'm not convinced it will be good for the profession at all. If that becomes the prevailing condition along with doctorates as ticket to entry, it will hasten its end significantly. I'm on the fence about where the PA profession is headed as it is, but if specialization is hard wired into it, then kiss it goodbye because it won’t be around in 20 years, let alone in a decade.

Specialization and doctorates don't play well to the strengths of PA's. Having excellent generalist education, and stepping away from that ability to move within the profession among specialties offers much less flexibility. Why would you want to give that up? Its ok for physicians, because they are at the top of the game. Even among those folks, having to relocate for any reason can be a huge setback. I'd never welcome giving up that freedom if I were a PA. The cardinal rule of "pick two of three ideals you want in your job (location, salary, and specialty) and you will get it" will be upended even worse than it is today. When you are locked into specialty, you won't even get a good shot of picking any other ideal, because you will be typecast. You choose a specialty, and location and salary will be largely decided for you. Not a plus. Throw that in with a residency AND a doctorate? Nobody will want to do that job. The barrier for entry will be too steep, and a two year degree will become a four year degree paying less than the two year degree did before it was monkeyed with beyond recognition.

If anyone things that the DNP is a cash grab, then a doctorate for PA's is exponentially more blatant. DNP works for nurses because nurses obtain it over the course of 3-5 years while they work in a decent paying industry with lots of employment, tons of flexibility with hours and job locations to choose from, and majority (or occasionally exclusively) online delivery. And that's if you opt for the DNP vs the more lucrative Masters NP, which can be obtained in 2 years. My peers and I are working 3 days a week, making $80k to $100k per year, while going to school, networking with potential employers, and having a decent amount of time for family and other interests. Another plus is that the DNP is by no means the ticket to ride. The master’s degree is as common to obtain at this point, and I feel like there will always be schools that will see the financial value in keeping that option open. There will always be a market for folks like myself who have no desire to get a DNP, but will shell out cash to anyone offering a masters NP. Folks like me and my friends also are more likely to come back in a few years to crank out a post masters certificate in another specialty like FNP to broaden horizons. But your typical PA candidate is no longer an experienced health care professional who has the luxury of time to sit and rack up a doctorate while they ride in the back of an ambulance or work as a CNA while they plug away at school to get a doctorate (not to mention a year-long residency!). Then, to step out into a market in four years where you are forced to go where the jobs are and get paid the wage that prevails in those locales? Then, when the going gets tough and you want to pick up work in another specialty... you can't, because either you don't meet criteria, or else another specialist PA looks better on paper. You end up getting screwed by your own.

And as far as specialty goes for NP's, most of the areas where their specialties are separated into are strategically delineated... psyche, women's health, FNP, adult gerontology/acute care. The NP world is also consolidating many of those that can be combined...for instance, psyche is transitioning to one specialty from where it was previously two... pediatric and adult. Those specialties are formed around natural landscape features.

All of those things that are nudging PA's into specialization are indeed happening (residencies, CAQ's, creeping specialization and lack of lateral movement), but its more organic than regulated. And one state changing the practice arrangement means the profession is still 23 states behind NP's, who have taken decades to get where they are. If I understand it correctly, its far more nuanced than simply being independent, like NP's have become. There will be no jumping to the head of the line based on merit, although I've said before that I feel like PA's are qualified to join NP's in that regard.
 
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I agree that specialization seems to be the going trend among PA practice, but I'm not convinced it will be good for the profession at all. If that becomes the prevailing condition along with doctorates as ticket to entry, it will hasten its end significantly. I'm on the fence about where the PA profession is headed as it is, but if specialization is hard wired into it, then kiss it goodbye because it won’t be around in 20 years, let alone in a decade.

Specialization and doctorates don't play well to the strengths of PA's. Having excellent generalist education, and stepping away from that ability to move within the profession among specialties offers much less flexibility. Why would you want to give that up? Its ok for physicians, because they are at the top of the game. Even among those folks, having to relocate for any reason can be a huge setback. I'd never welcome giving up that freedom if I were a PA. The cardinal rule of "pick two of three ideals you want in your job (location, salary, and specialty) and you will get it" will be upended even worse than it is today. When you are locked into specialty, you won't even get a good shot of picking any other ideal, because you will be typecast. You choose a specialty, and location and salary will be largely decided for you. Not a plus. Throw that in with a residency AND a doctorate? Nobody will want to do that job. The barrier for entry will be too steep, and a two year degree will become a four year degree paying less than the two year degree did before it was monkeyed with beyond recognition.

If anyone things that the DNP is a cash grab, then a doctorate for PA's is exponentially more blatant. DNP works for nurses because nurses obtain it over the course of 3-5 years while they work in a decent paying industry with lots of employment, tons of flexibility with hours and job locations to choose from, and majority (or occasionally exclusively) online delivery. And that's if you opt for the DNP vs the more lucrative Masters NP, which can be obtained in 2 years. My peers and I are working 3 days a week, making $80k to $100k per year, while going to school, networking with potential employers, and having a decent amount of time for family and other interests. Another plus is that the DNP is by no means the ticket to ride. The master’s degree is as common to obtain at this point, and I feel like there will always be schools that will see the financial value in keeping that option open. There will always be a market for folks like myself who have no desire to get a DNP, but will shell out cash to anyone offering a masters NP. Folks like me and my friends also are more likely to come back in a few years to crank out a post masters certificate in another specialty like FNP to broaden horizons. But your typical PA candidate is no longer an experienced health care professional who has the luxury of time to sit and rack up a doctorate while they ride in the back of an ambulance or work as a CNA while they plug away at school to get a doctorate (not to mention a year-long residency!). Then, to step out into a market in four years where you are forced to go where the jobs are and get paid the wage that prevails in those locales? Then, when the going gets tough and you want to pick up work in another specialty... you can't, because either you don't meet criteria, or else another specialist PA looks better on paper. You end up getting screwed by your own.

And as far as specialty goes for NP's, most of the areas where their specialties are separated into are strategically delineated... psyche, women's health, FNP, adult gerontology/acute care. The NP world is also consolidating many of those that can be combined...for instance, psyche is transitioning to one specialty from where it was previously two... pediatric and adult. Those specialties are formed around natural landscape features.

All of those things that are nudging PA's into specialization are indeed happening (residencies, CAQ's, creeping specialization and lack of lateral movement), but its more organic than regulated. And one state changing the practice arrangement means the profession is still 23 states behind NP's, who have taken decades to get where they are. If I understand it correctly, its far more nuanced than simply being independent, like NP's have become. There will be no jumping to the head of the line based on merit, although I've said before that I feel like PA's are qualified to join NP's in that regard.

I was just discussing with my preceptor his thoughts on the DNP. If you look for precedent, it must be the ADN vs BSN debate. For decades BSN was advocated for as entry level, but little progress was made until the magnet programs recognized, through research, that the BSN was their gold standard based on objective outcomes. Today ADNs have a role in nursing, but it's getting harder and harder every day for an ADN to get hired in a hospital, and very difficult indeed if that hospital is an academic medical center.

This move in effect tiers the RN degree. I predict in 10 years the same process will happen with the DNP vs MSN. The DNP program (which I am in) prepares you for navigating the complex political landscape of inpatient medicine. Eventually I see the DNP becoming the supervisory/inpatient APRN degree in the same way that the BSN has.

The future of the PA programs may be in that ballpark. The doctoral prepared PAs are more suited for inpatient medicine while the traditional PA programs remain but train outpatient clinicians.
 
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Well, you see, when NPs get doctorates it is because they are evil. When PAs do it, it's simply to keep up with everyone else., I mean thy basically have to do it. Get it?

/s

I don't think either party needs them. Just more debt for students as well confusion for the public.


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I don't think either party needs them. Just more debt for students as well confusion for the public.


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PTs were some of the first to get doctorates and started the degree creep. I don't see a ton of PT hate, just DNP.
 
PTs were some of the first to get doctorates and started the degree creep. I don't see a ton of PT hate, just DNP.

I'll say it once again I don't think that PAs or NPs need doctorates(especially one were folks use it to introduce themselves as doctor in a clinical setting).

We (APPs) are as close to a Physician as you can be without actually holding that title. If you say your Dr. Z and pts see you writing them rx, doing a physical exam(in-depth) it leads to unnecessary confusion.


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I'll say it once again I don't think that PAs or NPs need doctorates(especially one were folks use it to introduce themselves as doctor in a clinical setting).

We (APPs) are as close to a Physician as you can be without actually holding that title. If you say your Dr. Z and pts see you writing them rx, doing a physical exam(in-depth) it leads to unnecessary confusion.


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I completely agree with your opinion there.

I am however pointing out the viciousness towards the DNP in these forums that doesn't seem to translate when we are discussing other professings making the tragic sin of advancing their professions.
 
The truth is there are multifactoral social, cultural, political and fiscal reasons for why the DNP is hated with a tenacity that doesn't extend to other professions.

Usually it's fear masked as (unfounded in research) concerns about patient care. PAs are no threat to the MD, even when the PA has a doctorate because PAs have become so accustomed to sitting at the kids table.

The reasons for the plummet of the PA statistics are the same reasons for the hate of the DNP.
 
a big part of the animosity towards DNPs is that they insist on introducing themselves as "doctors" in a clinical setting. this causes confusion all around.
PAs with doctorates don't have Dr John Smith, PA on their name tags while some NPs do have Dr John Smith, NP on theirs.
The only place I pull the Dr Emedpa card is when I lecture or write articles, never at work.
 
a big part of the animosity towards DNPs is that they insist on introducing themselves as "doctors" in a clinical setting. this causes confusion all around.
PAs with doctorates don't have Dr John Smith, PA on their name tags while some NPs do have Dr John Smith, NP on theirs.
The only place I pull the Dr Emedpa card is when I lecture or write articles, never at work.

I agree that's a point of contention. I don't agree with that practice and won't do it myself.

However, that's a mask of all the other social, cultural, political and economic reasons for the DNP hostility. If we are going to have the discussion, let's have an intellectually honest discussion. This is what PAs are going to need to do if they want to keep their positions, and what nurses have done well.
 
I don't see the doom and gloom many posters here foresee. I think both professions have a bright future and think our path towards specialization will follow the one taken by the docs over the last 125 years. it used to be that a family doc could do anything. not so much anymore. it will be the same for us. it still is easier to do 4 years of undergrad plus 3 years of a pa/np program plus a 1 yr paid residency than the minimum 11 years required to be a physician. Yes, many folks will argue that if you have to do 8, why not do 11. that is a valid point, but people like the path of least resistance and 8 years with 100k debt with the potential to make 150k+ still looks better to many than 11 years with 200k debt.
 
I don't see the doom and gloom many posters here foresee. I think both professions have a bright future and think our path towards specialization will follow the one taken by the docs over the last 125 years. it used to be that a family doc could do anything. not so much anymore. it will be the same for us. it still is easier to do 4 years of undergrad plus 3 years of a pa/np program plus a 1 yr paid residency than the minimum 11 years required to be a physician. Yes, many folks will argue that if you have to do 8, why not do 11. that is a valid point, but people like the path of least resistance and 8 years with 100k debt with the potential to make 150k+ still looks better to many than 11 years with 200k debt.

From a sheer numbers aspect how would all PAs go through a "residency"? I don't foresee the federal government giving money for a 1yr fellowship. I think it will be a big turn off for a lot of candidates to do 8 years to be a PA. If someone told me that I would have went straight to Med school and not looked back.


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most of these postgrad fellowships/residencies/whatever you want to call them would likely be in underserved areas: VA medical ctrs, rural health ctrs, indian health, alaska native clinics, prisons, inner city, etc It wouldn't surprise me if they developed a competitive match process for placement in these, just like for the docs.
 
most of these postgrad fellowships/residencies/whatever you want to call them would likely be in underserved areas: VA medical ctrs, rural health ctrs, indian health, alaska native clinics, prisons, inner city, etc It wouldn't surprise me if they developed a competitive match process for placement in these, just like for the docs.

If becoming an APP requires you to spend a year working somewhere no one wants to work it's going to make PA a harder sell than it already is.
 
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If becoming an APP requires you to spend a year working somewhere no one wants to work it's going to make PA a harder sell than it already is.
docs already do this and run the risk of ending up at their last choice for 3-5+ years. you can do anything for a year if you want it bad enough.
I really think PAs and likely NPs as well are going to jump through every hoop the docs did eventually: undergrad, professional program, licensing exam, specialty training, specialty exam.
15 years ago or so I wrote one of the first(if not the first) article in one of the pa journals predicting the rise of doctorate pa programs. A few of the powerhouse names in pa education answered me in print to say it would never happen. well, it has. PAs have been doing doctorates forever in random fields and since 2003 in programs that cater heavily to PA applicants (DHSc), although they do take folks from other backgrounds as well. . now with 2 new PA-specific DMSc programs this year and several more in the works(not to mention a few residencies granting doctorates), the path seems clear. we are going there. doctorates+ name change+ full practice authority and responsibility for PAs will happen. it's just a question of when at this point.
 
docs already do this and run the risk of ending up at their last choice for 3-5+ years. you can do anything for a year if you want it bad enough.
I really think PAs and likely NPs as well are going to jump through every hoop the docs did eventually: undergrad, professional program, licensing exam, specialty training, specialty exam.
15 years ago or so I wrote one of the first(if not the first) article in one of the pa journals predicting the rise of doctorate pa programs. A few of the powerhouse names in pa education answered me in print to say it would never happen. well, it has. PAs have been doing doctorates forever in random fields and since 2003 in programs that cater heavily to PA applicants (DHSc), although they do take folks from other backgrounds as well. . now with 2 new PA-specific DMSc programs this year and several more in the works(not to mention a few residencies granting doctorates), the path seems clear. we are going there. doctorates+ name change+ full practice authority and responsibility for PAs will happen. it's just a question of when at this point.

I think you are right on the name change as well as the doctorate( as much as I hate it). I don't foresee PAs getting widespread full practice authority like our NP counterparts (maybe a few places here and there such as the VA). The basis of our existence is tethered to being associated with a physician and unfortunately you would have not only the NPs against this but physicians as well.




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If becoming an APP requires you to spend a year working somewhere no one wants to work it's going to make PA a harder sell than it already is.

I think it would push more of the better applicants to medical school. Older applicants with families wouldn't want to go through the hassle for the payoff.


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I was just discussing with my preceptor his thoughts on the DNP. If you look for precedent, it must be the ADN vs BSN debate. For decades BSN was advocated for as entry level, but little progress was made until the magnet programs recognized, through research, that the BSN was their gold standard based on objective outcomes. Today ADNs have a role in nursing, but it's getting harder and harder every day for an ADN to get hired in a hospital, and very difficult indeed if that hospital is an academic medical center.

This move in effect tiers the RN degree. I predict in 10 years the same process will happen with the DNP vs MSN. The DNP program (which I am in) prepares you for navigating the complex political landscape of inpatient medicine. Eventually I see the DNP becoming the supervisory/inpatient APRN degree in the same way that the BSN has.

The future of the PA programs may be in that ballpark. The doctoral prepared PAs are more suited for inpatient medicine while the traditional PA programs remain but train outpatient clinicians.

A big part of the push for the ADN to BSN was to bring nursing from a trade to a profession, and thats where most of the mileage came from in terms of research outcomes. Any of the studies showing the superiority of BSN to ADN were probably due to the additional BSN coursework providing an appreciation for an academic approach to a trade that didn't really have that kind of viewpoint before the BSN brought that about. But if we follow that logic, does that mean nursing will be now looking to MSN prepared nurses for bedside vs BSN? No. The threshold was reached and from there I think you would see diminishing returns. The value of the DNP lay in getting NPs into board rooms, and on tenure, and not leaving it to PhD nurses to advocate for them in a way that they would be unfamiliar with as merely highly educated RN's. It gives NPs a louder voice. As far as on the floor, it almost runs the risk of taking providers attention away from excelling in patient care. Are the best providers the ones that are out honing their craft, or the ones that leave bedside on a sabbatical and sit in meetings? Midlevel work is more cutthroat, and focused on billing and results. Improvement is measured there in terms of time and skill, not with a quality improvement project run by a DNP. And that's why some of the biggest DNP critics are other NP's. The DNP isn't going to come in and be department head just because of the title, and the facility isn't going to push for that kind of culture change for the midlevel. They want midlevels to show up, work, and be a lower cost alternative to the expensive physician. That's why a PA doctorate wont catch fire to the point where it is the standard. 8 years of prep to become a PA is close enough to 11 years that it you are in for a penny, you are in for a pound. Its not just 8 years of work towards a good paying field, it will be that many more years of lost income to enter a field that (with getting locked into residency and possibly lower wages due to specialization) will offer you around the same amount of money that you could make working in a lot of other careers.
 
PA name change is another thing I just don't see happening because of what it would take on the state level to accomplish. Physicians won't stand for it, because that's an obvious opening salvo towards unchaining PA's from them, as well as board of medicine supervision. Even if the entire landscape transforms, and there are no more physicians in private practice as the primary employer of PA's, they will still demand the profession be inextricably linked to them. They will not allow a spinoff group, and they will use the gap in education and training to drive that point home. Changing that status quo is something they will see coming from a mile away.

Doctorates for PA's solves a problem that doesn't exist, and its a luxury. If there ever is some kind of significant move towards a PA bridge (I know there's that one LECOM one that simply cuts a year off of medical school), then that would be the deathblow to doctorates specifically for the profession because it would highlight that absurdity.
 
most of these postgrad fellowships/residencies/whatever you want to call them would likely be in underserved areas: VA medical ctrs, rural health ctrs, indian health, alaska native clinics, prisons, inner city, etc It wouldn't surprise me if they developed a competitive match process for placement in these, just like for the docs.

National Health Service Corps is already there, and everyone wants in on it. They aren't going to be able to cannibalize those programs and offer them just to PA's. Plenty of PAs want to get into those spots without them even being set aside as residency positions. There would have to be a compelling case made to change what already is happening there and disrupt the status quo.
 
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I honestly think the biggest threat to NP and PA professions are from folks trying to remake them into something that they aren't. Raising barriers to entry and coming up with ways to divert the field into narrow specialties is going to lead to decreased influence and contraction of wages. Directing providers into specialties divides up the pie in ways that make it hard each prospective entity to advocate for each other.
 
All these things that people say will never happen ARE happening now:
Full practice authority and responsibility for PAs will be approved as a goal of our national organization this year. MI has already passed a law stating docs don't supervise PAs. Many states require zero chart review. the collaborating physician is just a name on a piece of paper in a file somewhere. It's only a small step from there to where MI is.
Several states already have either independent PA medical boards or sub-boards of medicine with majority PA seats.
Name/title change will happen. The momentum has been growing for > 20 years and is now being discussed at the highest levels of the profession.
Yes, the transition to the doctorate is mostly about degree creep. With all else being equal, a PA competing for a job with a DNP might need to also say "yes, I also have a doctorate in clinical medicine".
PAs are coming out of the shadows, running foundations, working at high profile jobs, becoming deans and provosts at major academic centers, etc.
It's a good time to be a PA, much better than at any other time in my 30 year career in medicine.
 
coming up with ways to divert the field into narrow specialties is going to lead to decreased influence and contraction of wages. Directing providers into specialties divides up the pie in ways that make it hard each prospective entity to advocate for each other.
seems to be working pretty well for the NPs. how many different NP program options are there now? 10+ ?
family, psych, nicu, women's health, acute care, adult, peds, EM NP.....and that doesn't include the nurse midwives, CRNAs, etc who are defined in some states as NPs/APRNs
 
All these things that people say will never happen ARE happening now:
Full practice authority and responsibility for PAs will be approved as a goal of our national organization this year. MI has already passed a law stating docs don't supervise PAs. Many states require zero chart review. the collaborating physician is just a name on a piece of paper in a file somewhere. It's only a small step from there to where MI is.
Several states already have either independent PA medical boards or sub-boards of medicine with majority PA seats.
Name/title change will happen. The momentum has been growing for > 20 years and is now being discussed at the highest levels of the profession.
Yes, the transition to the doctorate is mostly about degree creep. With all else being equal, a PA competing for a job with a DNP might need to also say "yes, I also have a doctorate in clinical medicine".
PAs are coming out of the shadows, running foundations, working at high profile jobs, becoming deans and provosts at major academic centers, etc.
It's a good time to be a PA, much better than at any other time in my 30 year career in medicine.

I agree with you that the PA profession has gotten much better in both our careers. Salary as well as practice wise. Unfortunately although Michigan may have made some changes they still have the one issue that the NPs are slowly eroding and it's the requirement of a physician to practice medicine.

Although NPs might have some states where they require a physician, there are many they can move to and be "independent". Unfortunately we are linked to a physician and without them PAs can't exist. That mistake falls on the founder of our profession and I don't foresee that being corrected in either one of our careers.

FYI correction to me would be the requirement for PAs to complete 24months of a bridge to become an MD/DO instead of the current 36 month one. I am against PA independence in any other form due to the same reasons I'm not a fan of the NP independent practice.


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seems to be working pretty well for the NPs. how many different NP program options are there now? 10+ ?
family, psych, nicu, women's health, acute care, adult, peds, EM NP.....and that doesn't include the nurse midwives, CRNAs, etc who are defined in some states as NPs/APRNs

Nursing is in the process of culling the herd, so to speak. "Adult and peds", whatever you are referring to is being rolled into FNP. Adult gerontology is taking over as the over 16 to geriatric acute care. EMNP (which is generally an FNP with EM focus... Or in the case of some schools and FNP/adult gerontology combo program), isn't anything in its own right. Psyche NP used to be divided into Peds and Adult... Now it's combined to one. So there is consolidation going on that will actually result in less of a spread of specialties going forward for NPs, which I think will be a good thing.
 
All these things that people say will never happen ARE happening now:
Full practice authority and responsibility for PAs will be approved as a goal of our national organization this year. MI has already passed a law stating docs don't supervise PAs. Many states require zero chart review. the collaborating physician is just a name on a piece of paper in a file somewhere. It's only a small step from there to where MI is.
Several states already have either independent PA medical boards or sub-boards of medicine with majority PA seats.
Name/title change will happen. The momentum has been growing for > 20 years and is now being discussed at the highest levels of the profession.
Yes, the transition to the doctorate is mostly about degree creep. With all else being equal, a PA competing for a job with a DNP might need to also say "yes, I also have a doctorate in clinical medicine".
PAs are coming out of the shadows, running foundations, working at high profile jobs, becoming deans and provosts at major academic centers, etc.
It's a good time to be a PA, much better than at any other time in my 30 year career in medicine.

A lot of those things towards the beginning of your post you cited are structural elements that were the lay of the land in those specific locales for quite a while, which is good, but it's just part of a patchwork of inconsistency in PA practice regs. Independence is a catch all that beats anything PAs have across the board, and I don't think there is any adequate substitute, certainly not simply physicians in Michigan allowing PAs to be in the hook for any screwups, but yet not independent, which is what that bill really feels like to me. But it is a step in the right direction, and up to now the best that I think PAs have been able to achieve. That's probably the model to follow to move forward. If PA advocates are smart, they will cite NP success when pushing for more independence instead of wasting time disparaging them.

As for name change? Herding all the cats into the corral behind an appropriate name will be next to impossible. Physician Associate is out, because that will be about as popular with doctors as NPs showing up with "Dr. Nurse" embroidered on their white coats. But from there, you are looking at another name that adds to the confusion you guys have been dealing with for decades among patients. Then to have to rebrand. I don't think I'd hope for that one to roll through. But as far as new names go, I think you folks would be best served by "practitioner associate". Keeps the "PA" initials, doesn't suggest you folks are physicians, doesn't define your profession in by relation to another profession (severs the link, in fact), still sounds good to hear. Of course, PAs with a chip on their shoulder towards NPs will hate it because of the "practitioner" part, but I really think that it wouldn't take long for it to be a word people saw as belonging to your profession as much as it does to nurses. Then "practitioner" would be a handy catch all for non physician providers, AKA the pajorative "midlevel". I think it's a slick title myself, and one I wouldn't mind having. But physician associate will never be the official title.
 
Is a PA gets a doctorate and independence, are they still a physician assistant? That seems to be a fundamental change in their role.
 
Is a PA gets a doctorate and independence, are they still a physician assistant? That seems to be a fundamental change in their role.
Yes, they will still be PAs. It doesn't change their role, it recognizes the reality of what we are already doing. As I type, this I am sitting in the ER of a rural hospital that has no physician on site. I see every walk in and ambulance patient, do every procedure, deal with every middle of the night disaster among admitted pts, etc. none of the docs who work here would ever call me an assistant.
 
Yes, they will still be PAs. It doesn't change their role, it recognizes the reality of what we are already doing. As I type, this I am sitting in the ER of a rural hospital that has no physician on site. I see every walk in and ambulance patient, do every procedure, deal with every middle of the night disaster among admitted pts, etc. none of the docs who work here would ever call me an assistant.

How does a doctorate address that though? To our attendings, we are still physician assistants nothing more, nothing less. Think about it, if they considered us peers why do they have doctors lounges that we aren't allowed in? If you have a bad outcome, I would bet the listed SP would a.) let you drown b.) pull the he is just a PA card. I've seen this done to colleagues who are better clinically than I will ever be.


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a doctorate and name change do not address this. They help with our PR. we have to get rid of "assistant". I personally like "Clinical Associate" , but the UK PAs are now Physician Associates and that seems to be working fine there.
full practice authority fixes the problems you mention. under the new MI law, a "Participating physician" has explicitly no responsibility for a PA working with them. The law basically says PAs work for physicians with oversight decided at the practice level. that could be 100% chart review. it could be 0%. they never have to be present on site for a pa to practice. They do not have to be available by phone for consults. If the practice so desires, they could hire a PA and stick them at a rural clinic and never talk to them again, just like an NP.
 
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a doctorate and name change do not address this. They help with our PR. we have to get rid of "assistant". I personally like "Clinical Associate" , but the UK PAs are now Physician Associates and that seems to be working fine there.
full practice authority fixes the problems you mention. under the new MI law, a "Participating physician" has explicitly no responsibility for a PA working with them. The law basically says PAs work for physicians with oversight decided at the practice level. that could be 100% chart review. it could be 0%. they never have to be present on site for a pa to practice. They do not have to be available by phone for consults. If the practice so desires, they could hire a PA and stick them at a rural clinic and never talk to them again, just like an NP.

I find it hard to believe that complete independence won't change the role of the physician assistant. To be clear I think it's the right move and PAs are fully qualified to be independent, but the drastic change should be acknowledged.
 
I find it hard to believe that complete independence won't change the role of the physician assistant. To be clear I think it's the right move and PAs are fully qualified to be independent, but the drastic change should be acknowledged.
it would make it easier to hire us and make us competitive with NPs in this regard, but wouldn't change what we do on a day to day basis very much , except in settings that are currently very restrictive(require doc to see every pt, etc)..
At 2 of my 3 jobs there would be no functional change at all. I already have 0% chart review. my collaborating md of record is a name on a piece of paper somewhere. we never work together and only rarely even see each other at shift change, etc. He treats me exactly like the docs who work the days I am not here.
 
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