Go with the money or the potentially better residencies?

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talooklatrek

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Hi guys, i don't mean to inundate this place with any more "help me choose a school" threads, but i have some concerns...

I've been accepted at U of Wisconsin (IS) with a 10K/year scholarship. I love Madison and the people there (family and friends in the area) and while UW is not the most highly regarded school in the world, it is a solid school and i feel that it would certainly give me a great education.

The problem is that I was recently accepted to Penn, which was my favorite school after interviews. i got a great vibe from the place, and just had that gut feeling of it being a good match. Do the better academics and my gut feeling outweigh the huge price tag (more than twice what i would pay at wisconsin)? I don't know--i need to do some soul searching in the next few weeks.

What i would really like to know is how much difference in residency placements the name of the individual school makes. I was looking at last year's match list from Wisconsin, and was underwhelmed. I realize that i am completely uninformed with regard to the quality of different residency programs and such, but they haven't put anyone into neurosurgery or plastics in the past few years. On the other hand, Penn is, well, Penn--great residencies for most. I am just wondering how much of a disadvantage i would be at for obtaining a competitive residency placement if i choose wisconsin over Penn, assuming equal academic performance and board scores at both schools....thoughts?

Any thoughts on Wisconsin vs. Penn in general?

Thanks!

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What would be the 4-year cost of attending Wisconsin vs Penn?

Do you know what field(s) of medicine you are interested in?

Do you know where you want to live when you grow up?

# matching in Neurosurg and Plastics is misleading because you don't know how many were interested in these fields. However, I think that the influence of school prestige in the match is underappreciated on SDN.
 
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With the scholarship and lower cost of living in madison, i could probably make it out of there with under 100K of debt, whereas at Penn i think it would be 200K+

specialty wise, i want to keep as much of an open mind as possible before getting into clinical rotations, but surgical fields interest me the most, potentially ortho

and i know that the neuro and plastics numbers can be misleading, but between 2002 and 2007, only 5 people total matched into both of those specialties combined--surely more must have been interested over a 6 year span, right?
 
"University of Pennsylvania - "got a great feeling at penn, but will i be twice as good a doctor for paying twice as much as at wisconsin?" "

to answer your MDApp question..........no.
 
Simple fact: You do well on your clinical evaluations and Step 1 of the boards= where you went to school is not going to hold your residency selection back. You have major control over your performance in school (then again, clinical evals can be a crapshoot). If you end up with average scores and grades, don't think you didn't get a "better residency" simply because you chose a school with a perceived "lower prestige." What you put in is largely what you get out. If you really want those "better residencies" take responsibility, do your best, work your butt off and be a better student and doctor... where you went to school will hardly matter at that point.

And for further analysis about Madison's match list, I suggest you look beyond neurosurg and plastics. Look at Radiation Oncology. In 2005, they got 4 people into that specialty, out of a total ~120 some odd spots. For the class of 2007, 10 people matched into Ortho. Those are some strong matches into highly competitive residencies.

How many people matched into plastics in 2007? A total of 85 people IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY. https://services.aamc.org/Publicati...version95.pdf&prd_id=197&prv_id=238&pdf_id=95
How many people match into Neurosurg each year? ~170 IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY. Basing residency match success on those two residencies is hardly representative of quality or perceived lack there of. If there is one thing med school applicants should barely put any consideration in is match lists. Your performance in school will trump many of the faults a school may have. Worry about that first. Worry about Step 1 before you even think about what residencies are within grasp. If somebody only scores a 200 and expects to match into plastics or neurosurg simply because of their school's reputation... his/her expectations may be downright absurd, even if they are at the Harvards of the world.
 
close your eyes and imagine penn just rescinded their acceptance...hurts doesn't it?
 
With rapidly declining reimbursements and the threat of universal healthcare on the horizon, I think its quite wise to consider how much debt you will be graduating with when you are done. Once you consider that, remember that a high Step 1 score at the lowest tiered medical school will make you stand out to residencies. Don't count on a school to get you a high step 1 score...that is completely dependent on you and how hard you work. So I my advice (since you don't hate either school) would be to go with what will financially make sense, and then work hard...whereever that school is.
 
Simple fact: You do well on your clinical evaluations and Step 1 of the boards= where you went to school is not going to hold your residency selection back. You have major control over your performance in school (then again, clinical evals can be a crapshoot). If you end up with average scores and grades, don't think you didn't get a "better residency" simply because you chose a school with a perceived "lower prestige." What you put in is largely what you get out. If you really want those "better residencies" take responsibility, do your best, work your butt off and be a better student and doctor... where you went to school will hardly matter at that point.

And for further analysis about Madison's match list, I suggest you look beyond neurosurg and plastics. Look at Radiation Oncology. In 2005, they got 4 people into that specialty, out of a total ~120 some odd spots. For the class of 2007, 10 people matched into Ortho. Those are some strong matches into highly competitive residencies.

How many people matched into plastics in 2007? A total of 85 people IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY. https://services.aamc.org/Publicati...version95.pdf&prd_id=197&prv_id=238&pdf_id=95
How many people match into Neurosurg each year? ~170 IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY. Basing residency match success on those two residencies is hardly representative of quality or perceived lack there of. If there is one thing med school applicants should barely put any consideration in is match lists. Your performance in school will trump many of the faults a school may have. Worry about that first. Worry about Step 1 before you even think about what residencies are within grasp. If somebody only scores a 200 and expects to match into plastics or neurosurg simply because of their school's reputation... his/her expectations may be downright absurd, even if they are at the Harvards of the world.


abj, i am admittedly uninformed about residencies--hence the thread. by no means have i gotten ahead of myself and assumed that i'll get good boards and grades. it's just that i may be interested in competitive residencies and wanted to know how much of a difference my school choice would make, assuming my grades and scores are up to snuff, which remains to be seen.

how much effect does the geographic location of you med school have on the geographic location of your residency? for example, do kids from eastern schools match mainly into easter residencies, or is there no connection?
 
A comment or two on the power of Step 1 and grades.

First, I think that people are going to get similar scores no matter where they go because so much of the score has to do with your work ethic and baseline smarts. The choices aren't 200 at UPenn vs. 250 at Wisconsin, but similar scores at each.

Second, I think I trusted the power of Step 1 and grades a bit too much. I had the highest Step I in my class and the second highest available MSPE "adjective" which is basically a summary of your academic performance (ie. "excellent" on an outstanding/excellent/very good/good/adequate scale). I applied to anesthesiology which is moderately competitive but not that bad.

I was denied interviews at numerous programs including UCSF, Brigham&Womens, U Washington, and Penn. Of the "top tier" programs I did get to interview at, there was a predominance of people from "top 10" schools. Much of the remainder had PhDs or personal connections with big names in the field. I also observed that interviewers at several places had to score the prestige of my school on their evaluation forms.

Could I have gotten those interviews if I had the highest grades in my class? Probably. But although it's easy to say "rock your classes and get lots of clinical honors," it's tough to do when half your class is shooting for something that is only allowed to a small fraction.

My perception is that if you are a total all-star or bottom-of-the-class, prestige doesn't matter much, but if you are like most people in the middle, it matters a great deal. Look at the Penn matchlist. Mathematically not all of those people matching at top tier programs in every field are in the top 10-15% of their class, which is what you'd need to be at Wisconsin to hope for a similar outcome.

But what matters most is who you know. I attempted to make connections on away rotations but it was nearly impossible because the big names know that the visiting students are trying to get an "in" and they had no interest in meeting or working with me instead of their own students. So if you know what you are going to go into I would figure out where the big names are -- then you can go anywhere. I met someone with below-average scores from a school of insignificant USNews rank who got interviews almost everywhere (and matched at her #1) because of a LOR from a big wig who happened to be at her school.

Of course there is a huge difference in cost. You should probably take the money. But if you know you are interested in a highly competitive field or in being an academic leader in any field, the big name may not be as bad of a choice as some would argue.
 
A comment or two on the power of Step 1 and grades.

First, I think that people are going to get similar schools no matter where they go because so much of the score has to do with your work ethic and baseline smarts. The choices aren't 200 at UPenn vs. 250 at Wisconsin, but similar scores at each.

Second, I think I trusted the power of Step 1 and grades a bit too much. I had the highest Step I in my class and the second highest available MSPE "adjective" which is basically a summary of your academic performance (ie. "excellent" on an outstanding/excellent/very good/good/adequate scale). I applied to anesthesiology which is moderately competitive but not that bad.

I was denied interviews at numerous programs including UCSF, Brigham&Womens, U Washington, and Penn. Of the "top tier" programs I did get to interview at, there was a predominance of people from "top 10" schools. Much of the remainder had PhDs or personal connections with big names in the field. I also observed that interviewers at several places had to score the prestige of my school on their evaluation forms.

Could I have gotten those interviews if I had the highest grades in my class? Probably. But although it's easy to say "rock your classes and get lots of clinical honors," it's tough to do when half your class is shooting for something that is only allowed to a small fraction.

My perception is that if you are a total all-star or bottom-of-the-class, prestige doesn't matter much, but if you are like most people in the middle, it matters a great deal. Look at the Penn matchlist. Mathematically not all of those people matching at top tier programs in every field are in the top 10-15% of their class, which is what you'd need to be at Wisconsin to hope for a similar outcome.

But what matters most is who you know. I attempted to make connections on away rotations but it was nearly impossible because the big names know that the visiting students are trying to get an "in" and they had no interest in meeting or working with me instead of their own students. So if you know what you are going to go into I would figure out where the big names are -- then you can go anywhere. I met someone with below-average scores from a school of insignificant USNews rank who got interviews almost everywhere (and matched at her #1) because of a LOR from a big wig who happened to be at her school.

Of course there is a huge difference in cost. You should probably take the money. But if you know you are interested in a highly competitive field or in being an academic leader in any field, the big name may not be as bad of a choice as some would argue.

I have to COMPLETELY agree with this. I matched in radiation oncology, which I think had fewer than 150 positions this year. Let me tell you that your school's reputation and name IS a factor, no matter how many people tell you otherwise. This is particularly true for the most competitive specialties.

The question you pose is a difficult one to answer because there are so many factors. I'd say that if you are interested in something competitive, such as ortho, going to Penn might not be such a bad idea. Realize that the connections you make, as was said above, are HUGE. I'm convinced that's how I matched in rad onc since I was not the competitive applicant just based on my Step scores and class rank. You potentially have more high profile faculty at the bigger name places like Penn. That translates into potentially awesome letters of rec from well-known people, which in small competitive fields will help you A LOT.

I should also say that going to somewhere less prestigious won't prevent you from going into a certain field. You might have to do a little bit more on your own to get where you want to go, but it's totally doable.
 
hey guys, thanks so much for the responses. so school name does make a difference in residency placement...i wish that weren't the case and that i could pick just based on the merits of each school. anyone else have any experience with the match at prestigious vs mid-tier schools?

i wish the match stats would say how many people try to match into certain specialties vs how many actually match--i think that would be a telling statistic at both schools.
 
hey guys, thanks so much for the responses. so school name does make a difference in residency placement...i wish that weren't the case and that i could pick just based on the merits of each school. anyone else have any experience with the match at prestigious vs mid-tier schools?

i wish the match stats would say how many people try to match into certain specialties vs how many actually match--i think that would be a telling statistic at both schools.

You are making quite a leap here based on 2 posts, and I think you are coming away with the incorrect conclusion - and note that both of them actually placed in their competitive residencies despite attending something less than the big name school...

And back to your original question - is it worth the additional $100k+ to attend the name brand school for residency placement purposes? I think not, and if you carefully read the two posters who are saying school matters, they have qualified their responses with respect to your question.

It is not so black and white...
 
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so school name does make a difference in residency placement
They weren't actually saying that so much as they were saying FACULTY name makes a big difference, if I understand their posts correctly. They're two years ahead of me, so their advice should carry some more weight, but if I were you, I would follow the money (and go to UWisc). In my opinion, the limiting factor for you to get a good residency will most likely be YOU and not your school.

Also, people want to go to a great med school so that they can get into the residency program of their choice, but why do you need a prestigious residency program? Provided that I like the program I eventually get into, its prestige isn't that important to me. A neurosurgeon is a neurosurgeon, regardless of where he went to residency.
 
They weren't actually saying that so much as they were saying FACULTY name makes a big difference, if I understand their posts correctly. They're two years ahead of me, so their advice should carry some more weight, but if I were you, I would follow the money (and go to UWisc). In my opinion, the limiting factor for you to get a good residency will most likely be YOU and not your school.

Also, people want to go to a great med school so that they can get into the residency program of their choice, but why do you need a prestigious residency program? Provided that I like the program I eventually get into, its prestige isn't that important to me. A neurosurgeon is a neurosurgeon, regardless of where he went to residency.

Well of course to get placement in a prestigious fellowship...like a hamster wheel, it never ends...

I agree with you that what matters most is the individual, his motivation, his moxie, his seeking contacts and mentors, etc. I shadowed a radiologist who went to a no name med school and a no name residency and he needs a wheel barrow to carry his money to the bank...
 
Obviously the answer for you is penn. Not that penn is worth more money or afford you more opportunities, but that fact that youre asking the question demonstrates that brand name and prestige means something you (there is nothing wrong with this). If you don’t go to penn, youre going to end up regretting it for a long time. Youll be one of those guys who remind everyone that they “got in but decided to go elsewhere.” For many doctors, prestige plays a huge factor into why they went into the profession in the first place. No reason why it shouldn’t factor into which school you choose.


Its quite normal for people to want their achievements to be rewarded and noticed. If someone scores a 1600 on his SATs and gets into Harvard college, but decides to go to the less expensive state school, that person essentially “lost” this accomplishment. The same with acing your MCAT and premed courses. If you get 99% on the MCAT and a 3.9 GPA, but go to a lower ranked school, you have completely lost those achievements. This may sound very arrogant, but you shouldn’t judge until you achieved a 38/3.9. Its not that easy to let go of. Remember, many people in top 10 med schools could have gone to lower ranked schools for less money but chose not to. Its easy to advise someone to turn down a top school when you yourself don’t have that option.
 
School name makes a difference.

Who you know makes a big difference.

These are often connected.

I tend to agree with you, but I think location probably factors into it as well. If you know you want to match in Wisconsin, why go to a school in Pennsylvania?

I'll use my case as an example. I know I want to stay in Michigan (or at least the Midwest) for residency. Now, I've been admitted to some top OOS programs, but I'm going to attend UMich because I see no advantage going to an even more prestigious (and costly) school. How does HMS help me anymore than UMich, at matching in Michigan? My guess is it wouldn't.

Jeebus, I think you're right stating who you know will likely make a difference. However, I don't think useful connections are restricted to big whigs from prestigious schools; I think they can also include people with ties to states and hospitals which you're applying to. I could be wrong, but I doubt someone from UCLA has much of an edge over someone from Wayne State, at matching in Michigan (assuming credentials are similar).

I would go to UW and save the money.
 
I'm in a similar situation as you. deciding between a 10k scholarship/year at umiami or mt sinai. look at what other costs you'd save/incur at each school. for me, miami would mean buying a car and paying all its costs, which would offset the scholarship. in nyc I'd just use public transport.
 
If your final goal is to match in Wisconsin, you can go anywhere for med school.

I agree that if your goal is to stay at Michigan, you should go to Michigan.

I would guess that someone from UCLA would have a significant edge over someone from Wayne State in matching a University of Michigan program. I can't imagine many UCLA students wanting to move to Ann Arbor though. Depends on the department too, accessibility of big names, et cetera et cetera.

But your point is well taken. My goal is to practice in southern CA. I chose UCSD with scholarship over some "top 10" schools. Four years later I have matched at UCSD for residency. Going to one of those expensive schools would not have been helpful towards my overall goal.

I bring this stuff up because I think the OP's goals are more open-ended. I think that if there is a lot of uncertainty in your plans, you should keep options open. Certainly if the OP wishes to settle down in Wisconsin, that would be a perfect choice. Another consideration is that an expensive school closes options as well in low-paying fields.
 
Perhaps your decision might be made easier if you wait and see what Penn offers you in terms of financial aid. Even more subsidized loans can make enough of a difference.

Also, if I am lucky to find myself in your shoes this time next year, I would probably choose Penn. Networking is HUGE to get far in life. That's why, despite the annual overrating of Ivy League and other top schools, it's still important to at least consider prestige/reputation in the equation.
 
I'm in a similar situation as you. deciding between a 10k scholarship/year at umiami or mt sinai. look at what other costs you'd save/incur at each school. for me, miami would mean buying a car and paying all its costs, which would offset the scholarship. in nyc I'd just use public transport.

You make a great point here - it is not just tuition and fees and offsetting scholarships that determine the total cost (and indebtedness) when comparing schools...also - with subsidized med school housing in NYC, all else being equal (tuition, fees, transportation costs) it is arguably cheaper to go to a NYC medical school than one in Boston, DC, Los Angeles, or San Francisco...
 
When making these types of decisions you've got to consider where medicine in general is right now and where it is heading.

If salaries continue to drop (and who can honestly say how much further they will) being saddled with an extra 100k+ worth of debt (before interest accumulation) is going to be very significant.

A couple of years ago, I chose my state school over a more highly ranked (although not as high as Penn) because of fear of debt and the general sentiment that I got from practicing physicians that it matters very little where you went to school. At the time, I was not interested in academics (now I am - go figure) so I chose the state school.

The only way I would choose Penn over Wisconsin, if I were you, would be if I knew I wanted to go into academics. Plenty of state-school grads get into Neurosurgery, Ortho, Derm, Rads, and Plastics. I think its more about what you do in school (grades, scores, research, ECs) than where you did it.
 
I'm not really sure what my final goal is yet--while i like the idea of living in wisconsin, i'm certainly open to being elsewhere. basically, i want to keep as many doors open as i can for my future with this decision.

financially, i'm waiting to hear back from penn, which should be the end of the month or so, though i am not expecting much from them. when factoring everything in cost-of-living wise in both cities, madison is by far the cheaper of the two--low transportation costs (don't have to fly to school), cheaper housing, etc. not to mention a 23K break in tuition...

logically, this decision screams wisconsin. It's cheaper, i know i love the location, and it's a decent school. i guess what's holding me back is first, i don't want to preclude myself from competitive residencies (don't care about their perceived prestige, just getting accepted to a program i like--after seeing previous posts it seems that going to UW won't put me at a big disadvantage, making the huge assumption that my grades/scores put me in a place to compete for these residencies 4 years from now) and second, i had a great day at penn--prestige aside--and got that intuition that it was a good fit for me--we'll see if that holds true after 2nd look. i had the same feeling for my undergrad school and went with it, and it was the best decision of my life. i just don't feel comfortable ignoring that gut feeling
 
I'm not really sure what my final goal is yet--while i like the idea of living in wisconsin, i'm certainly open to being elsewhere. basically, i want to keep as many doors open as i can for my future with this decision.

financially, i'm waiting to hear back from penn, which should be the end of the month or so, though i am not expecting much from them. when factoring everything in cost-of-living wise in both cities, madison is by far the cheaper of the two--low transportation costs (don't have to fly to school), cheaper housing, etc. not to mention a 23K break in tuition...

logically, this decision screams wisconsin. It's cheaper, i know i love the location, and it's a decent school. i guess what's holding me back is first, i don't want to preclude myself from competitive residencies (don't care about their perceived prestige, just getting accepted to a program i like--after seeing previous posts it seems that going to UW won't put me at a big disadvantage, making the huge assumption that my grades/scores put me in a place to compete for these residencies 4 years from now) and second, i had a great day at penn--prestige aside--and got that intuition that it was a good fit for me--we'll see if that holds true after 2nd look. i had the same feeling for my undergrad school and went with it, and it was the best decision of my life. i just don't feel comfortable ignoring that gut feeling

Did your intuition perceive Wisconsin as NOT being a good fit for you? The only reason I would take on the additional debt would be if I had bad vibes from Wisconsin - if my intuition said "no." But for improved residency? No way I would pay $100k+ extra for that, because it simply is not that straight forward an equation...
 
Any thoughts on Wisconsin vs. Penn in general?

Essentially you want to know if your decision between Penn and Wisconsin will be the deciding factor between career success or career failure. The answer is probably no. If your goal is to be the youngest chair of cardiothoracic surgery on the Eastern Seaboard then Penn would be the obvious choice. If your goal is to reap a definite, tangible benefit (significantly less debt, and therefore more professional freedom) then take Wisconsin.

I'm personally very wary of residency programs at big name institutions. Sometimes they deserve the accolades, but sometimes they don't. Only too late do you discover that the chair is a detached egotist a-hole, most of the faculty care only about their research, and your colleagues are a bunch of freaks. This isn't my experience, but I've seen it happen time and again. Often the best actual, honest-to-God training you will find is at mid-tier programs, where the volume is reasonable and the faculty actually give a rat's *** about you.

Good luck with your decision.
 
What if you want to specialize in something like pediatric cardiology? I've heard that to get into some fellowships that are as competitive as cardiology, you practically have to be from certain (i.e. top) med schools/residencies.
 
logically, this decision screams wisconsin. It's cheaper, i know i love the location, and it's a decent school. i guess what's holding me back is first, i don't want to preclude myself from competitive residencies

Make whatever decision you want to, if wearing that "Penn Med" t-shirt for the rest of your life is worth an extra 100K+, then do it. BUT, realize that going to Wisconsin (or any other solid state medical school) WILL MOST CERTAINLY NOT "preclude [yourself] from competitive residencies."
 
What if you want to specialize in something like pediatric cardiology? I've heard that to get into some fellowships that are as competitive as cardiology, you practically have to be from certain (i.e. top) med schools/residencies.

Fellowships could care less where you went to med school. Doing your peds residency at a top institution will help you when applying for peds cardiology fellowships (which I don't believe is honestly that competitive). Peds isn't that competitive and where you go to medical school won't preclude you from matching at [insert top pediatric residency here].


Example: http://pediatrics.duke.edu/modules/dept_peds_eductn/index.php?id=23

Duke's pediatric residency program. Plenty of residents from state schools (MUSC, Tennessee, UNC, UMDNJ, SUNY, etc), mid-tiered private schools, lower-tiered private schools, and DOs/IMGs.

Graduate placement shows many peds cardiology fellowships.
 
Fellowships could care less where you went to med school. Doing your peds residency at a top institution will help you when applying for peds cardiology fellowships (which I don't believe is honestly that competitive). Peds isn't that competitive and where you go to medical school won't preclude you from matching at [insert top pediatric residency here].


Example: http://pediatrics.duke.edu/modules/dept_peds_eductn/index.php?id=23

Duke's pediatric residency program. Plenty of residents from state schools (MUSC, Tennessee, UNC, UMDNJ, SUNY, etc), mid-tiered private schools, lower-tiered private schools, and DOs/IMGs.

Graduate placement shows many peds cardiology fellowships.

Hmm very interesting. thanks for your answer.
 
hey guys, thanks so much for the responses. so school name does make a difference in residency placement...i wish that weren't the case and that i could pick just based on the merits of each school. anyone else have any experience with the match at prestigious vs mid-tier schools?

i wish the match stats would say how many people try to match into certain specialties vs how many actually match--i think that would be a telling statistic at both schools.
even if the match stats said that, it would be meaningless since you wouldn't know how competitive the applicants were in terms of grades, boards, papers, etc.
 
even if the match stats said that, it would be meaningless since you wouldn't know how competitive the applicants were in terms of grades, boards, papers, etc.

very true, but it might give you a basic idea.

Goose, this decision has nothing to do with whatever t-shirt i might be able to wear, or how smart i can tell everyone i am for having gone to a good school--if that were the case, this wouldn't even be a decision, it would be hands-down Penn. i also realize it's a bit premature to be thinking about whether i'll be able to place into tough, competitive programs at this point, before i've even taken my first anatomy exam. i just want to have all my bases covered when i'm making this decision--thank you all for your awesome help and insight.

Somebody made a good point above about Penn being worth the cost if i were interested in academics. as of today, i think i would rather be practicing than researching, which tips the scale in UW's favor.:thumbup:
 
School name makes a difference.

Who you know makes a big difference.

These are often connected.
Obviously, but there are so many more variables involved than just that. Some program directors might think your Bigwig is a genius in his field, and some others might think he's an arrogant jerk. As much as pre-meds think that the med school application process has many intangible factors, it seems like the residency application process has the potential to be much worse.
 
i don't want to preclude myself from competitive residencies (don't care about their perceived prestige, just getting accepted to a program i like
There aren't many residencies that would toss your application because it says UW instead of Penn. There may be a boost from going to Penn, but UW definitely has a good name as well. Likewise, if you stay in the region, I highly doubt UW would hurt you in hardly any way.
 
Names seem to matter for the super-competitive residencies, but working hard and getting a good step 1 score is far more important. Would you be more comfortable at a school where you're the only one aiming for plastics/neurosurgery/urology/whatever? Does U Wisconsin have enough elective time for you to do a subspecialty rotation/away rotation? Would you rather be surrounded by people who are from all over the country, or would you feel more comfortable by people who have a more similar background to yours? Are you going to feel happier in a big city, or would you miss home?

You'll have lots of chances to make money and spend money, but you only get one shot at life. People go to U Penn, pay for U Penn, and manage to get out of debt. If you're looking into a competitive specialty, you'll probably be able to make enough money to get by (if you want to be a family practitioner in a small town somewhere, it'd be harder to pay off the loans- not impossible, just more difficult).
 
Jesus...I just now took a look at the OP's mdapps profile - he has something 8 freaking acceptances, including Dartmouth...

Holy crap, man, why are you wasting our time? You have a ton of options that most people can only dream about, and you are hung up on Penn and worrying about residency placement?

Better question - why am I wasting my time?

I find it hard to believe that someone with your obvious intelligence is really struggling with this, looking at it so simplistically...
 
Jesus...I just now took a look at the OP's mdapps profile - he has something 8 freaking acceptances, including Dartmouth...

Holy crap, man, why are you wasting our time? You have a ton of options that most people can only dream about, and you are hung up on Penn and worrying about residency placement?

Better question - why am I wasting my time?

I find it hard to believe that someone with your obvious intelligence is really struggling with this, looking at it so simplistically...

Because Penn is ranked top 5 in medical research schools, and UW Madison is offering him a scholarship. That's why. And why do you think it is so simplistic? If you were in that position perhaps you'd have trouble turning down a top-5 school too.
 
Because Penn is ranked top 5 in medical research schools, and UW Madison is offering him a scholarship. That's why. And why do you think it is so simplistic? If you were in that position perhaps you'd have trouble turning down a top-5 school too.

Nope...for me it comes down to cost, curriculum, and location.

Reading match lists is ridiculous.

Worrying about residency placement as a pre-med is ridiculous.

Not being able to comprehend the truth about residency placement - puzzling...

Worrying about having an additional $100k in debt in a time of falling physician salaries, rising interest rates and decreasing terms (on student loans at least) - this is what I am concerned about more than any of the other stuff.
 
Nope...for me it comes down to cost, curriculum, and location.

Reading match lists is ridiculous.

Worrying about residency placement as a pre-med is ridiculous.

Not being able to comprehend the truth about residency placement - puzzling...

Worrying about having an additional $100k in debt in a time of falling physician salaries, rising interest rates and decreasing terms (on student loans at least) - this is what I am concerned about more than any of the other stuff.

Not in my opinion. It makes sense to try to reach as high as you can in your career, and the earlier you begin to prepare, the better.
 
Not in my opinion. It makes sense to try to reach as high as you can in your career, and the earlier you begin to prepare, the better.

You are missing the point - where you go to medical school, assuming you do well, is not going to limit or preordain your residency options.

Hence, making something that really doesn't matter the key decision point on choosing where to go to medical school is dumb. It is the OP who asked the question if Penn is worth the $100k, so clearly cost is one of the OP's criteria, too. Wherever "residency placement" should be, I think it is silly to place it on a par with cost...
 

It is not so black and white...


In your own words, flip, it's not that black and white. this choice has to do with more than just money. i find it ridiculous that you accuse me for planning too far ahead with regard to residency when you seem very worried about planning ahead monetarily.

as you said,
Not being able to comprehend the truth about residency placement - puzzling...
forgive me for being an ignorant premed who has yet to fully grasp the intricacies of the ridiculously complex system that is the match. that's the whole point of the thread: to get some advice about this stuff.

Basically, flip, if you had to choose between your absolute dream school, which was more expensive, and your 2nd favorite school, which was much more reasonably priced, would it be an easy decision for you?
 
In your own words, flip, it's not that black and white. this choice has to do with more than just money. i find it ridiculous that you accuse me for planning too far ahead with regard to residency when you seem very worried about planning ahead monetarily.

as you said,
forgive me for being an ignorant premed who has yet to fully grasp the intricacies of the ridiculously complex system that is the match. that's the whole point of the thread: to get some advice about this stuff.

Basically, flip, if you had to choose between your absolute dream school, which was more expensive, and your 2nd favorite school, which was much more reasonably priced, would it be an easy decision for you?

Depends on how much more expensive...but I can tell you that the prospect of taking on an additional $100k of debt for any school over any of my state schools (or any other school I am accepted to) will be an easy call for me.

Your problem is that you are trying to justify the added cost (which evidently matters to you) with a factor that is not really determined by which school you attend - yes, residency placement is important, but the real question is how important is it when choosing where to attend medical school. The answer - not very. Is it worth $100k for "not very?" Maybe it is for you, but definitely not for me.
 
OP, I am in a similar situation right now. Since I haven't received any actual written financial aid offers, I will wait for those to come in before deciding. Because I have significant financial need, I may be able to get a significant need-based scholarship from one school that will nearly match the merit based scholarship from another. You never know what the cost difference will be until you see it in writing. (I should also mention that all of my schools are private, so the cost of attendance of the schools are similar).

Before I started applying, I would have said "you should definitely take the money and run," but now that I am actually IN this situation, it's different. It's hard to shake your gut feeling. (Sorry I don't have great advice. Just wanted to say you're not the only one in this situation).
 
How important is being rich/upper-middle class/comfortable to you?

I'm making a similar decision-- Penn vs. Baylor. I think I'm actually leaning towards Penn because I think the class style will prepare me better, it's close to my family, and it can give me an edge into getting a residency in the North. So some of my reasons are different than yours, but money also plays a role.

A lot of people here seem to think that school name doesn't matter at all in residency decisions. I just don't think that's possible. In general, a better ranked school will be a (small or large) plus in your favor. This may help you get into the specialty you want in the *location* that you want it.

Do you want to be the big fish in the small pond? High school was like that for me, and while my ego flourished, I think that going to a university where everyone was really smart and driven has helped me stay motivated. Of course students at Wisconsin are smart. But there's a reason that they get in there and not Penn, right? Maybe you prefer an environment where it's not extremely hard to stand out, though. Some people get really upset when they realize they are "average" in their class.

Good luck, I know it's not easy!
 
It seems that you are looking for the response that validates your desire to go to Penn. There are no guarantees, so you are going to have to be willing to go for it and suck up the tuition. However, Penn is a truck load of money and you have a great state school ... work hard and you will be fine!


hey guys, thanks so much for the responses. so school name does make a difference in residency placement...i wish that weren't the case and that i could pick just based on the merits of each school. anyone else have any experience with the match at prestigious vs mid-tier schools?

i wish the match stats would say how many people try to match into certain specialties vs how many actually match--i think that would be a telling statistic at both schools.
 
It seems that you are looking for the response that validates your desire to go to Penn.

I guess what it comes down to is you are going to be there for 4 years, and will forever be an alum with that degree hanging on your wall. If Penn is your dream school, then maybe it's worth the extra money.
 
How important is being rich/upper-middle class/comfortable to you?

I'm making a similar decision-- Penn vs. Baylor. I think I'm actually leaning towards Penn because I think the class style will prepare me better, it's close to my family, and it can give me an edge into getting a residency in the North. So some of my reasons are different than yours, but money also plays a role.

A lot of people here seem to think that school name doesn't matter at all in residency decisions. I just don't think that's possible. In general, a better ranked school will be a (small or large) plus in your favor. This may help you get into the specialty you want in the *location* that you want it.

Do you want to be the big fish in the small pond? High school was like that for me, and while my ego flourished, I think that going to a university where everyone was really smart and driven has helped me stay motivated. Of course students at Wisconsin are smart. But there's a reason that they get in there and not Penn, right? Maybe you prefer an environment where it's not extremely hard to stand out, though. Some people get really upset when they realize they are "average" in their class.

Good luck, I know it's not easy!

Yep, I'm in a similar situation, too - WashU vs. Baylor vs. my state school (with full tuition scholarship). I went to a public university, and so I see med school as my opportunity to go somewhere where the students are really motivated, hopefully at a private school; I'd like to see how far I can go, and this is easier to do if those around you have the same mentality. And since I want to go into a specialty later on, I think that going to a top-tier school will pay off.

Also, perhaps going to a state vs. private school would make a difference as to the number of opportunities one has for research, etc. And I think that it would affect one's chances of getting into a competitive residency/fellowship, in the same way that coming from a private undergrad Ivy gives you more chances to get into a better medical school (because a student had to work hard to get there in the first place).

For example, if a student comes from an Ivy league with a 3.8 and a 35 MCAT, s/he will probably get more interview invites than one with the same scores from a public, lesser-known university (this probably doesn't translate into number of acceptances, though.)

Not only may the reputation of the school come into play, but being at a top-tier school may bring more opportunities for research, funding for study-abroad, and networking. Exposure to people that are leaders in their field of medicine gives a student many advantages, whether through guidance or encouragement. Thus, students exposed to these leaders have more opportunities to become leaders in medicine themselves.
 
A lot of people here seem to think that school name doesn't matter at all in residency decisions. I just don't think that's possible. In general, a better ranked school will be a (small or large) plus in your favor.

No one is saying it doesn't matter AT ALL; however, it matters very little. There was a report published in JBJS (journal of bone and joint surgery) that ranked how PD selected applicants. Bottom line?


1. Rotation at the director's institution.
2. USMLE Part I score
3. Rank in medical school
4. Formality / Politeness at the interview
5. Personal Appearance of the candidate
6. Performance on ethical questions at the interview
7. Letters of Recommendation from an orthopaedic surgeon
8. Candidate is an Alpha Omega Alpha member
9. Medical school reputation
10. Dean's Letter
11. Personal Statement
12. Failed first attempt at matching in orthopaedic surgery.


So, it looks like you might be better off spending that 100k on cosmetic surgery and a nice italian suit than on the school with a better reputation.

Orthopaedic Resident-Selection Criteria Bernstein et al. JBJS-A 2002; 84: 2090-2096
 
So, you can see that what the individual has done (step 1 score, rank, interview performance, aoa) rank above what school you go to.



Honestly, at the end of the day, pre-meds are always going to grovel over USNWR rankings and perceived prestige no matter what. But chances are you'll feel differently after you've matched and you're making socialized-healthcare wages with 200k worth of debt at a high interest rate.
 
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