Go with the money or the potentially better residencies?

[paranoid_eyes]

go to penn

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[Law2Doc]

School name makes a difference.

Who you know makes a big difference.

These are often connected.

In my experience, I'd say they are actually often inversely correlated. You will not get to know the Nobel prize winners who work at Penn, even though you may be on the same campus. But you will frequently get a better chance to work along side clinicians with solid reputations at the more middle of the road schools, where access to the local bigshots may be better. And faculty at EVERY school know faculty at many other schools, so you can in fact have better connections, albeit one step removed, with important folks at the top schools coming from a middle ranked school than you might if you were actually at that school. It all depends on how much contact you have with faculty in your desired field, not where they currently are. Having someone willing to pick up the phone on your behalf can be key, and the schools further down the food chain may actually encourage this of their faculty more.

IMHO, school prestige seems to matter a lot on the pre-allo board, but becomes progressively less important the further down this road you go. (See Goose's posts above to this effect which I think should be reiterated). Board scores and evals count a lot more than school name, (yes, even for those in the middle of the class) and because there really aren't all that many US allo schools, they are all reasonably decent launching pads for any specialty -- the rest is up to you. But I'd say that from the OP's first post, s/he thinks s/he would be happier at Penn. In my mind that means a situation that would be more conducive to doing well, which in turn is worth taking out some more loans. Because while the brand name probably isn't worth the money, having a better time for 4 years, and doing better in school and on the boards probably is. So if it's your favorite and gives you a good vibe, it is better for you, notwithstanding the rank/prestige. If OP had talked about Wisconsin being the favorite and giving good vibes, I would have suggested that choice.

 

[Gut Shot]

And faculty at EVERY school know faculty at many other schools, so you can in fact have better connections, albeit one step removed, with important folks at the top schools coming from a middle ranked school than you might if you were actually at that school.

True dat. Also disturbing is this notion that top schools have wall-to-wall awesome faculty who are both international experts and happy to write you a glowing rec letter, while state schools are dumping grounds for no-names. The simple fact is that there are big names at every institution, and there are renown departments at mid- and low-tier schools just as there are disaster-zone departments at "top schools."

 

[45408]

Just another thought. Give Penn a call and tell them your situation. Say that you love their school, but you have a much more competitive financial aid package elsewhere. Is there anything that they might be willing to offer you that would lure you to Penn? That would be a win-win situation for you.


Like Law2doc said, it would be best if you go to a school where you'll be happy. If you're going to be miserable at UW, that will be reflected in your performance.

 

[172858]

screw prestige and name. don't obsess about the money.

follow your bliss, and go where you'll be happiest.

because at the end of the day, life's just too damn short...

 

[myKuduSlewaZulu]

OP, check out the regression analysis done by the nrmp. Adobe pages 20-24. Attending a top 40 NIH grant school was not a predictor for getting into a competitive specialty (here defined as Rad onc, ortho, plastics, derm, and ent). It was a predictor for entry into other specialties. Maybe it helps you get into certain top programs within a competitive specialty, but not necessarily into the competitve specialty itself???

http://http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

 

[talooklatrek]

you guys are awesome, thanks so much for all the input. i'm going to wait until i hear back from penn's financial aid office before deciding, and we'll see if 2nd look changes anything in a few weeks.

 

[fisko82]

Attending a top 40 NIH grant school was not a predictor for getting into a competitive specialty (here defined as Rad onc, ortho, plastics, derm, and ent).

http://http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

I was looking that over and noticed some interesting stepI/match data from it. Notably, that step 1 doesn't seem to be quite the deal breaker it's made to be on SDN. I've read on here for awhile now that if you get a low step I score you haven't a prayer at matching in competitive specialties. According to those charting outcomes, that isn't the case at all; I'm seeing lots of people with match success in competitive specialties with not-so-competitive step I scores. Interesting...

 

[Long Dong]

If you're single, ask yourself which school has the hottest undergrads or has the finest women in the area. This well determine how happy you'll be during med school. Like others have said the happier you are during med school the better your perfomance academically. For me I was able to lock myself in a room studying 4-6 hours a day on weekdays and 8-10 hours on saturday knowing that Sat night and sunday I'd have a hot date (mainly with my GF) to go on as a reward. And if you have more money the more fun/happiness to be had, so again take the money and go for the hottness.

 

[Long Dong]

I was looking that over and noticed some interesting stepI/match data from it. Notably, that step 1 doesn't seem to be quite the deal breaker it's made to be on SDN. I've read on here for awhile now that if you get a low step I score you haven't a pray at matching in competitive specialties. According to those charting outcomes, that isn't the case at all; I'm seeing lots of people with match success in competitive specialties with not-so-competitive step I scores. Interesting...

The thing with this data is that it doesn't say what hook ups they have. Trust me I've seen peeps with average stats match because family gave large $$$ to department, married/engaged to faculty, son of attending, PhD, Gold medal list, wrote some books, publish >10 first auther in their field, done research in that field since undergrad, etc. But say you don't have any of these things then boards, at least for me, is the deal maker.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

I was looking that over and noticed some interesting stepI/match data from it. Notably, that step 1 doesn't seem to be quite the deal breaker it's made to be on SDN. I've read on here for awhile now that if you get a low step I score you haven't a pray at matching in competitive specialties. According to those charting outcomes, that isn't the case at all; I'm seeing lots of people with match success in competitive specialties with not-so-competitive step I scores. Interesting...

Wut it tells me if that if you're a US senior with 260 or greater on step 1 you pretty much have a 100% match rate in every specialty besides derm. And you don't even bother applying to specialties like PM&R.

 

[fisko82]

The thing with this data is that it doesn't say what hook ups they have. Trust me I've seen peeps with average stats match because family gave large $$$ to department, married/engaged to faculty, son of attending, PhD, Gold medal list, wrote some books, publish >10 first auther in their field, done research in that field since undergrad, etc. But say you don't have any of these things then boards, at least for me, is the deal maker.

Good point. Yeah, there's probably a lot more to those numbers than what meets the eye, but I was surprised by it nonetheless.

Wut it tells me if that if you're a US senior with 260 or greater on step I you pretty have a 100% match rate in every specialty besides derm. And you don't even bother applying to specialties like PM&R.

lol, so I take it you're liking your odds and will not be going into PM&R?

 

[talooklatrek]

I really liked Penn at 2nd look weekend, and they ended up giving me $15,000 (after some hassling). I think it's going to be Wisconsin when I make my final choice later today--going home is too tempting, and I thought Philly was OK, but I don't know if I want to be there for 4 years. Maybe for residency.

For now, I'm going to Spain for my deferral year and will then come back and work my *** off in Wisconsin in a place i know and love. thank you all for your advice.

 

[flip26]

I really liked Penn at 2nd look weekend, and they ended up giving me $15,000 (after some hassling). I think it's going to be Wisconsin when I make my final choice later today--going home is too tempting, and I thought Philly was OK, but I don't know if I want to be there for 4 years. Maybe for residency.

For now, I'm going to Spain for my deferral year and will then come back and work my *** off in Wisconsin in a place i know and love. thank you all for your advice.

Well done and congrats.

Have you already arranged a deferred year with Wisconsin (and Penn, too)? What were your reasons, and did they give you a hard time?

 

[talooklatrek]

Well done and congrats.

Have you already arranged a deferred year with Wisconsin (and Penn, too)? What were your reasons, and did they give you a hard time?

Thanks flip. yes, i got deferrals from both schools. i found a program through the spanish government where they place you in a public school as a "language and culture assistant." it's pretty light work and should give me ample opportunity to perfect my spanish and travel. Pay is low, but so is my spending--i'm spending every extra penny on bus fares to exotic and isolated parts of spain. i wrote the schools and told them about how i would really like to perfect my spanish before beginning med school, as i hope to work with migrant patients in some capacity. i majored in spanish and have done quite a bit of translating in a local clinic, so i wrote about how these experiences have made me want to get as close to native-level proficiency as i can, as i would really like to work with migrant patients in this country as a doctor. both schools were very accommodating and approved my plan with no hesitation. penn actually approved it even before i asked for it--i sent the admissions people an email asking the exact procedure to ask for a deferral to go to spain, and they emailed me back saying my deferral request was approved. anyway, i'm really looking forward to a little break from academics to relax, refocus, and learn a little bit more about who i am.

 

[BurnEmUpBears]

Really now?

Go to Penn

 

[TheRealMD]

You are missing the point - where you go to medical school, assuming you do well, is not going to limit or preordain your residency options.

Hence, making something that really doesn't matter the key decision point on choosing where to go to medical school is dumb. It is the OP who asked the question if Penn is worth the $100k, so clearly cost is one of the OP's criteria, too. Wherever "residency placement" should be, I think it is silly to place it on a par with cost...

Are you purposely ignoring what lord_jeebus just said in this thread? He said that even when he had the highest Step 1 score of his class, he was denied interviews at certain places.

The problem I see with your arguments is that it assumes that what you want will NOT change, and that usually only happens if you have something tying you down to the area. The other reason your argument fails is because it assumes you are the top student, in which money may make more of a difference. However, statstically most people are in the middle, and that's where a "big name" will help you the most.

Everyone wants to be that top student, not everyone can be.

 

[flip26]

Are you purposely ignoring what lord_jeebus just said in this thread? He said that even when he had the highest Step 1 score of his class, he was denied interviews at certain places.

The problem I see with your arguments is that it assumes that what you want will NOT change, and that usually only happens if you have something tying you down to the area. The other reason your argument fails is because it assumes you are the top student, in which money may make more of a difference. However, statstically most people are in the middle, and that's where a "big name" will help you the most.

Everyone wants to be that top student, not everyone can be.

Being "denied interviews" at the top schools is not the same as getting shut out of the residency altogether. Besides, IIRC, didn't he land a desired residency at his home school which is evidently pretty desirable? And isn't there more to residency placement than Step I scores?

Dude, there is no problem with any of my arguments. My argument is against paying an extra $100k (or more) to attend the higher ranked school in the hopes that it will land a "better" residency...the same "rankings" obsession grips med students in looking at residencies, I guess, the same way it drove them crazy applying to med school and undoubtedly to college, too (and for many of them prep school and kindergarten before that)...I just think it is nuts to come out of the back end of this process with an unnecessary mountain of debt, that's all...

 

[dragonfly99]

Wow!
This is a great post. I didn't even read it all, because it is soooo long.
To the poster: these are great questions to be asking.

No, I don't think it's too early to be thinking about residency placement. Second, I don't think it's too early for you to be thinking about how to repay loans. You realize there is a difference between the two schools of at least 100k. What you don't realize is that the 100k, when factored over the lifetime of the loan, will probably morph into 300k. To take my own example, I paid 32k/year tuition, borrowing a total of 132k to go to med school, graduating in 2004 with 2.9% interest. I'm currently paying $540/month in loan payments, for 30 years total (if I'd kept the loan at 10 year repayment plan, that would have been 1300k/month plus, which would not have been doable on a resident or fellow salary that started at 38k).

This question of what will get you into a competitive residency is tricky. I think a top 30% of his class guy at Penn will get more offers from "competitive" plastics or ortho programs than a top 30% of his class guy at Wisconsin. However, a guy in the top 30% of his class at Wisconsin, and who has above average USMLE step I score, WHO HAS GOOD LETTERS OF RECOMMENDATION will likely match into any specialty he wants to. He just may match for residency at Wisconsin or Iowa, and not at Harvard? Does it really matter? Only probably if you want to live on the East/West coast and/or be an academic basic/bench research person in the future. The residency education you get won't necessarily be better or worse at a "famous" place vs. a nonfamous one - at a tiny hospital in the boondocks it wouldn't be as good, but at Wisconsin or Michigan vs. UC San Francisco or Harvard I don't think there would be a difference. I 100% agree with some of the posters above that the actual clinical education you get (hands on training with patients) may be superior at Wisconsin vs. Penn, and that where you went to medical school will not matter at all if you go into private practice later. The patients won't care and neither will the other doctors.

There is no easy answer to your question. I can tell you that I don't feel my "top 5" medical school was worth the money I paid for it. The teaching was mostly terrible. I did fine/ranked fine, though not in the top of my class I certainly had no problems matching (internal med though). I don't know how a person would cope with having 200,000 in debt and then wanting to go into internal medicine, pediatrics, psychiatry, family practice, and perhaps some other specialties I'm not thinking of that aren't so high paying. Also, remember things won't be over in 3 years. You may end up doing research or a fellowship, so expect income in the 40,000 range for several years after med school. The 200k debt is not trivial. Don't think that it is because it isn't. You need to think about it.

Nobody can make this decision but you. However, remember that you only have good choices - Wisconsin and Penn, from what I know of them, will both be solid schools for you. Don't pick Penn just because it is "top tier" and don't pick Wisconsin if you don't really like it - unless they are giving you free tuition, in which case I'd jump at it. The thing that strikes me about this all is you keep saying how much you loved Penn. I'm torn because I know (personally) that sometimes the top tier schools don't provide good teaching. Be aware they are good at "wowing" applicants on the interview day; it's what they do. However, if Penn truly is a dream for you, you may want to go there at all costs, but I would suggest picking a higher paying specialty AND GET TO KNOW THE CLINICAL/HOSPITAL FACULTY EVEN BEFORE YOUR 3RD YEAR OF MED SCHOOL, AT LEAST TRY TO MEET WITH THEM A FEW TIMES. If I were in your shoes, I'd talk with my family/parents, also call up financial aid office at Penn and tell them "You are my dream school, but I have to see what I can do to pay for this". See if they will offer you some aid that is a grant, NOT a loan. Explore other scholarships that might be available.

 

[dragonfly99]

Also,
I think sometimes those in the top of their classes at some of the "less famous" schools match into competitive programs while those in the
"middle of the pack" at a famous institution don't match into things like derm and plastics at times. The "top tier" schools will tell you that all their students who want to get into the picky specialties, but I personally observed folks in my class who were nice folks with good board scores get denied interviews and not match into things like plastics and derm. Perhaps if they had gone to a slightly less competitive school, and were AOA, they would have gotten in. I know, I know, all med schools are competitive and have smart students, but some of the ones with the crazy high MCAT scores and GPA's have even more hard driving students who will do ANYTHING for the grades. It's true, NOT ALL med students can or will end up being the top ones. You think you will be, because you were in undergrad. But remember, only 1/3 of you will be in the top 1/3 of your classes

There's no real answer to the question you are asking in this thread. The real main pearls of wisdom I have are
-consider your future debt. Actually do the calculations, and ask a banker or your parents (who probably own a house and have a mortgage, etc.) what the 200k debt, vs. a 100k debt,will really mean to you in the future.
-start early in med school with career exploration. Try to narrow it down to 3 specialties or so that are your top choices even before 3rd year of med school. Try and get to know the faculty who are full professors in those departments. I kid you not, it matters. It really is who you know, vs. what you know and what you do. It's just how the world works.
-medicine is still a great field. Don't forget it's about your patients and you. Don't let the others (moneygrubbers, cynical, some powerhungry faculty and nurses, competitive other med students) suck out your passion for medicine.

 

[talooklatrek]

Thanks for your insight Dragonfly. I have already decided, Wisconsin it is. I did work out the finances at both schools, and I will be saving myself an absolute boatload of money at Wisconsin. That said, Penn was very generous--during second look weekend, I spoke with the financial aid people and told them of my scholarship at Wisconsin, and shortly later they offered me $15,000/year, far more than i was expecting.

Nevertheless, in the end, I'm going to be close to home in Madison and saving myself a large debt burden. I also think that when it really comes down to it, would I be any better of a doctor for having gone to Penn as opposed to Wisconsin? That seems to be the vibe I'm getting from the vehement Penn supporters on this thread, that I would somehow be an inferior physician for attending a mid-tier school. I think that's ridiculous. I'm going to be learning the same essentials--many of which don't even matter when you're a practicing physician--and I'll be getting more than adequate clinical training. When you really think about it anyway, what does it matter if your clinical is from a leader in the field? It's not like a third year medical student who doesn't know jack is going to be able to tap into the wealth of knowledge that makes that person a leader. Maybe you could get a better rec letter out of it, I don't know.

I'm not bashing Penn at all. I loved the place, and turning it and its scholarship down was probably the hardest choice I've ever made. I know I would have been happy and thrived there, but I will at Wisconsin too, for so much less money. And in the end, I'm going to be essentially the same physician graduating from either, because you really get out what you put in, and that is not school dependent.

 

[Excelsius]

Some great information in this thread. Once again, the importance of the school name is being emphasized by those who have first hand experience. I think unless one is trying to be in denial, it should be clear that school name/rank do affect residency placement. It seems to be a vicious circle:

Great high school = higher chance of great undergrad
Great undergrad = higher chances of great med school
Great med school = almost a guarantee of great residency
Great residency + great med school = placement in top jobs.

And sure, an underachiever at a low tier place is pretty much the same everywhere. This logic applies to leaders. If one is thinking of just becoming a doctor and does not intend to lead any major efforts (changing the way anesthesia is administered, fighting against insurance companies), then the brand name of the school won't be utilized fully.

It is usually unusual for top schools to promulgate the advantages associated with their prestige, but you might be interested to read this:

Q: In The End, Will It Really Matter Where You Go To Med School?

We think the answer is yes if you care about things like placements in top residency programs and a network of life-long contacts. The fact is, The Johns Hopkins School of Medicine can remain your professional anchor for decades after graduation, opening doors to fascinating opportunities and rewarding friendships.

Consider
As you apply for residencies, you'll be confident that directors of programs at top hospitals around the country know from experience that Hopkins graduates are superbly trained. Every spring on Match Day when our seniors learn of their placements, there's a lot to celebrate: More than 90 percent land one of their first three choices.

Consider
As you continue to chart your professional course, you'll encounter fellow Johns Hopkins alumni setting examples and occupying leading positions in whatever specialty you choose. "I can't think of a single field or special interest any student has left here wanting to pursue where there isn't a Hopkins name you can drop or connection you can make," marvels Kevin Johnson, a pediatrician on our faculty.

Consider
Hopkins alumni tend to be close-knit and supportive, just like our medical school classes. The institution engenders a lifelong loyalty that's about shared history, values and experiences. Or as gastroenterologist Mary Harris, a faculty member, puts it: "Hopkins has this innate capacity to crawl into your heart and your mind. It's just such an exhilarating, stimulating, compassionate, intellectual experience."

(http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/admissions/matter.html)

Some simple math here. It is not a stretch to assume lord_jeebus probably got a score higher than maybe 40% of students at Hopkins. If he and no one else in his school (with lower scores) got into the top residency programs whereas Hopkins has 90% success rate in top three residency choices, it is not too difficult to assume that top residencies (jobs?) outsource the crop from them first, even with much lower scores.

My observation is not an advice or an attempt to dissuade anybody from choosing one type of school or another. A top school might be worth the extra money if one has ambitions to "change the world." That can be done from any other school as well, but the name will be very helpful. Most doctors choose the regular path and by that I mean helping patients on a day-to-day basis. For such cases a higher cost for brand name school likely matters not. I think it is important that when someone asks for an opinion, the complexities of the issue are explained because there are rarely any choices that are quantized. Brand name schools do have their own advantages and choice will be different for every student based on his/her goals.

 

[flip26]

Some great information in this thread. Once again, the importance of the school name is being emphasized by those who have first hand experience. I think unless one is trying to be in denial, it should be clear that school name/rank do affect residency placement. It seems to be a vicious circle:

Great high school = higher chance of great undergrad
Great undergrad = higher chances of great med school
Great med school = almost a guarantee of great residency
Great residency + great med school = placement in top jobs.

And sure, an underachiever at a low tier place is pretty much the same everywhere. This logic applies to leaders. If one is thinking of just becoming a doctor and does not intend to lead any major efforts (changing the way anesthesia is administered, fighting against insurance companies), then the brand name of the school won't be utilized fully.

It is usually unusual for top schools to promulgate the advantages associated with their prestige, but you might be interested to read this:


(http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/admissions/matter.html)

Some simple math here. It is not a stretch to assume lord_jeebus probably got a score higher than maybe 40% of students at Hopkins. If he and no one else in his school (with lower scores) got into the top residency programs whereas Hopkins has 90% success rate in top three residency choices, it is not too difficult to assume that top residencies (jobs?) outsource the crop from them first, even with much lower scores.

My observation is not an advice or an attempt to dissuade anybody from choosing one type of school or another. A top school might be worth the extra money if one has ambitions to "change the world." That can be done from any other school as well, but the name will be very helpful. Most doctors choose the regular path and by that I mean helping patients on a day-to-day basis. For such cases a higher cost for brand name school likely matters not. I think it is important that when someone asks for an opinion, the complexities of the issue are explained because there are rarely any choices that are quantized. Brand name schools do have their own advantages and choice will be different for every student based on his/her goals.

What exactly do you mean by a "great residency" and by "placement in top jobs?" Are "great" residencies only defined by "where" one does them? Are "top jobs" defined by location or by how much they pay, or both?

Your "observation" (what observation?) and "simple math" and "logic" are deeply flawed. Your bolded, 4 line "vicious circle" reasoning is silly and useless.

 

[Excelsius]

Subjective questions. Everyone has his own answers. I can't define for you what a good job or residency is. The best way to say it is probably: the ability and ease to get into any residency one desires.

The circle is "vicious" as far as ambiguous admissions practices are concerned. Note the phrase "higher chances." It implies admissions or success arising from the lower ranking schools is not mutually exclusive.

Observation is based on data. Not easy to think about a flawed datum (maybe unless people are lying). Interpretation can vary and is relative. We could both have flawed logic relative to someone else's logic, however, data usually don't lie.

 

[Doublecortin]

Some great information in this thread. Once again, the importance of the school name is being emphasized by those who have first hand experience. I think unless one is trying to be in denial, it should be clear that school name/rank do affect residency placement. It seems to be a vicious circle:

Great high school = higher chance of great undergrad
Great undergrad = higher chances of great med school
Great med school = almost a guarantee of great residency
Great residency + great med school = placement in top jobs.

yet another clueless pre-med who's probably not worked a day in his life, dishing out advise

 

[Excelsius]

yet another clueless pre-med who's probably not worked a day in his life, dishing out advise

Read critically:

More than 90 percent land one of their first three choices.

You also missed "almost." Anyway...

 

[ninjapenguin]

And if you have more money the more fun/happiness to be had, so again take the money and go for the hottness.

This is exactly what I did - forget about prestige. With less money to spend on tuition in a more desirable city, I'll have more money to party and spend on the nice pretty ladies!

 

[DadofDr2B]

"University of Pennsylvania - "got a great feeling at penn, but will i be twice as good a doctor for paying twice as much as at wisconsin?" "

to answer your MDApp question..........no.

I don't believe in atheists.

 

[flip26]

Subjective questions. Everyone has his own answers. I can't define for you what a good job or residency is. The best way to say it is probably: the ability and ease to get into any residency one desires.

The circle is "vicious" as far as ambiguous admissions practices are concerned. Note the phrase "higher chances." It implies admissions or success arising from the lower ranking schools is not mutually exclusive.

Observation is based on data. Not easy to think about a flawed datum (maybe unless people are lying). Interpretation can vary and is relative. We could both have flawed logic relative to someone else's logic, however, data usually don't lie.

This is a total cop out answer. You are the one mentioning "great" residencies and "top jobs" and the special formula for obtaining them...I asked for your definitions, but it is pretty obvious you don't even know what you are talking about...which makes your first post, combined with this sophistry, doubly worthless.

 

[LovelyMD]

Read critically:



You also missed "almost." Anyway...

Quite a few schools say that a high percentage of their students get one of their top 3 choices, but it's a little misleading. You can only rank the residency programs that interview you. If, for example, the residency program at MGH was your true first choice, but MGH chose not to interview you, you cannot rank MGH when it is time to rank your residency programs.

 

[Excelsius]

This is a total cop out answer. You are the one mentioning "great" residencies and "top jobs" and the special formula for obtaining them...I asked for your definitions, but it is pretty obvious you don't even know what you are talking about...which makes your first post, combined with this sophistry, doubly worthless.

A broad definition was already provided. Not that it is important, but you may re-read it. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough for you and maybe some others too. Let's say grad A wants to start a residency at a program that is well respected/known by the medical community. As explained by Hopkins U, she will have about 90% chance of getting into that residency program if she is from Hopkins. After she finishes residency, she decides to start working at a facility A in D.C. area which has a low acceptance rate. Her goal is to become involved in politics to take on some of the healthcare issues. The director of facility A will look at her record and likely accept her - not just because of brand names, but the connections associated with brand names. So ultimately her medical school enabled her to achieve her goals, at least thus far. Now let's look at grad B. His goals are very different from grad A. He just loves to work in underserved locales where there is a strong demand for doctors - he is doing a great job helping people more directly and does not want the headache of politics or other leadership burdens. So he applies to facility B where there is a lot of demand for doctors and not much competition to get accepted. Grad B does not really need a brand name school simply because his goals are different while grad A needs every advantage she can get because of her choices. I hope that makes it clear what I mean.

Note that grad A can succeed even without a brand name school, but it may be more difficult or take more time (especially if her numbers are not superlative). This is why the correct answer to "what school should I go to" must be "what are your goals?"

I had been in a CC for a long time and I am not praising brand names at all, but I have first hand experiences in both worlds. After I stopped taking courses at CC I took a few classes at a top 5 five school while deciding where to transfer (I was able to do that because of certain privileges at work). Some people (not very smart ones) treated me as if I knew everything. Even my doctor who graduated from Duke said "you must be very smart" after inquiring about me. He wasn't sarcastic - we had a good conversation unrelated to my office visit. Other people seemed to be jealous because of prejudices they had and I learned to come up with a false answer when people ask about my education because it makes some react in a negative way just based on the school name. Anyway, this goes on and on.

I'll finish with an anecdote: a coworker from the aerospace company has a wife (he's like 30). His wife finished her advanced degree from some university and wasn't able to get a job as a teacher for some time. So he took a day off from work one day and went with his wife to an interview to support her. Somehow he got engaged in a conversation with the interviewer about what he does and where he works. The next day they were notified that his wife got the job. He was pretty sure about why his wife got the job and so was his wife. I don't think this is right, but you must realize that in the end you can't change what some layperson on the street thinks about brand names. Some aren't bright enough and judge you by your school but others might have a personal interest for themselves or their company maybe to get a connection with your prestigious facility. If you think there aren't a lot of people out there who are not that bright, you may be naive. You may want to look at the past presidential elections to get some idea.

I don't think I can clarify this any further. Thanks for the input/opinion.

 

[flip26]

A broad definition was already provided. Not that it is important, but you may re-read it. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough for you and maybe some others too. Let's say grad A wants to start a residency at a program that is well respected/known by the medical community. As explained by Hopkins U, she will have about 90% chance of getting into that residency program if she is from Hopkins. After she finishes residency, she decides to start working at a facility A in D.C. area which has a low acceptance rate. Her goal is to become involved in politics to take on some of the healthcare issues. The director of facility A will look at her record and likely accept her - not just because of brand names, but the connections associated with brand names. So ultimately her medical school enabled her to achieve her goals, at least thus far. Now let's look at grad B. His goals are very different from grad A. He just loves to work in underserved locales where there is a strong demand for doctors - he is doing a great job helping people more directly and does not want the headache of politics or other leadership burdens. So he applies to facility B where there is a lot of demand for doctors and not much competition to get accepted. Grad B does not really need a brand name school simply because his goals are different while grad A needs every advantage she can get because of her choices. I hope that makes it clear what I mean.

Note that grad A can succeed even without a brand name school, but it may be more difficult or take more time (especially if her numbers are not superlative). This is why the correct answer to "what school should I go to" must be "what are your goals?"

I had been in a CC for a long time and I am not praising brand names at all, but I have first hand experiences in both worlds. After I stopped taking courses at CC I took a few classes at a top 5 five school while deciding where to transfer (I was able to do that because of certain privileges at work). Some people (not very smart ones) treated me as if I knew everything. Even my doctor who graduated from Duke said "you must be very smart" after inquiring about me. He wasn't sarcastic - we had a good conversation unrelated to my office visit. Other people seemed to be jealous because of prejudices they had and I learned to come up with a false answer when people ask about my education because it makes some react in a negative way just based on the school name. Anyway, this goes on and on.

I'll finish with an anecdote: a coworker from the aerospace company has a wife (he's like 30). His wife finished her advanced degree from some university and wasn't able to get a job as a teacher for some time. So he took a day off from work one day and went with his wife to an interview to support her. Somehow he got engaged in a conversation with the interviewer about what he does and where he works. The next day they were notified that his wife got the job. He was pretty sure about why his wife got the job and so was his wife. I don't think this is right, but you must realize that in the end you can't change what some layperson on the street thinks about brand names. Some aren't bright enough and judge you by your school but others might have a personal interest for themselves or their company maybe to get a connection with your prestigious facility. If you think there aren't a lot of people out there who are not that bright, you may be naive. You may want to look at the past presidential elections to get some idea.

I don't think I can clarify this any further. Thanks for the input/opinion.

I have less than zero idea what the hell your "anecdote" is about and particularly what it has to do with your "great med school = great residency = great life" claims.

As for the rest of your post - total hogwash.

 

[xylophone]

since the OP's dilemma has been resolved, i'm going to semi-hijack this thread with a related question: Go with location or potentially better residencies?

I think the OP touched on this in his post as well, but how does the geography of the medical school affect the selectivity of residencies?

In short, I'm deciding between UC Davis and University of Pittsburgh. Thanks to this very helpful post, I think I now know where I stand in terms of prestige/money, but if I am hoping to do residency in California, will Davis help me get a residency more than Pittsburgh would? (Because of the local connections?) Or would Pittsburgh be better for the added prestige/higher rankings? Or would these two cancel factors cancel out to zero?

 

[Character]

the money

 

[Gut Shot]

Read critically:

Interestingly, the percentage of total US medical grads who get one of their first three choices in the match is 84.6%. What should we infer from this, oh diviner of BS?

 

[45408]

Interestingly, the percentage of total US medical grads who get one of their first three choices in the match is 84.6%. What should we infer from this, oh diviner of BS?

Clearly, they are all top medical schools. Pats on the back all around.

 

[Gut Shot]

And in the end, I'm going to be essentially the same physician graduating from either, because you really get out what you put in, and that is not school dependent.

Congrats, it sounds like you made the right decision for yourself.

 

[Excelsius]

Interestingly, the percentage of total US medical grads who get one of their first three choices in the match is 84.6%. What should we infer from this, oh diviner of BS?

It was already well put by another member:

Quite a few schools say that a high percentage of their students get one of their top 3 choices, but it's a little misleading. You can only rank the residency programs that interview you. If, for example, the residency program at MGH was your true first choice, but MGH chose not to interview you, you cannot rank MGH when it is time to rank your residency programs.

If you read through the entire thread, you'll see that this is not just about numbers (even though Hopkins is still above the national average per your article). There were also a few med students here who confirmed that school name is not irrelevant.

Thanks for the link. There is some interesting data there.

 

[Gut Shot]

It was already well put by another member:

Not quite what I was getting at. You're correct that your plea to consider percentage with a match into a top three choice already fell apart per the earlier poster. I was giving "greater than 90%" a frame of reference, which is a distinct, albeit related, criticism.

There were also a few med students here who confirmed that school name is not irrelevant.

True, but "not irrelevant" is a far cry from "worth thousands of dollars." If this were practically anything else in life, one would demand tangible, quantifiable value in return for such a large sum of money. When it comes to school name all we can find are vague platitudes that frequently invoke the word "top." Frankly, unless you're a name-***** who wishes to be the youngest chair of cardiothoracic surgery on the Eastern Seaboard, having less educational debt may provide more professional freedom down the road than having a big name on your med school diploma.

 

[flip26]

True, but "not irrelevant" is a far cry from "worth thousands of dollars." If this were practically anything else in life, one would demand tangible, quantifiable value in return for such a large sum of money. When it comes to school name all we can find are vague platitudes that frequently invoke the word "top." Frankly, unless you're a name-***** who wishes to be the youngest chair of cardiothoracic surgery on the Eastern Seaboard, having less educational debt may provide more professional freedom down the road than having a big name on your med school diploma.

One of the academic mods who posts here (can't recall which one) once pointed out that most of his/her peers in academic medicine went to public med schools and accumulated less debt which made it feasible for them to consider a lower paying career in academics. This made sense to me when I read it, and it completely flies in the face of the pre-med wisdom on SDN that the only path to academic medicine is via a "top" research school, and for most people that is going to be a costly private school...

 

[Excelsius]

True, but "not irrelevant" is a far cry from "worth thousands of dollars." If this were practically anything else in life, one would demand tangible, quantifiable value in return for such a large sum of money. When it comes to school name all we can find are vague platitudes that frequently invoke the word "top." Frankly, unless you're a name-***** who wishes to be the youngest chair of cardiothoracic surgery on the Eastern Seaboard, having less educational debt may provide more professional freedom down the road than having a big name on your med school diploma.

Good. I think we all pretty much agree that school name matters. The only problems arise when you try to quantify that - how much does it matter? This is why I said that it will differ for every individual. For some, it is a waste of money to pay for a brand name school. Why buy a Lamborghini if you are not really going to use its speed? If you have the money, the prestige might be good enough to obtain one, but otherwise it is a waste of money. With med schools the name might matter more if you are going to do something beyond day-to-day medicine: doing business like opening a hospital (your investors might not know about your Step scores and that all med schools are the same, only that Harvard is very good); getting involved in law to fight for medical rights or serve as an expert witness (the jury and the court will know you must be good because you went to Yale), etc, etc. The key here is "beyond" medicine. If anyone doubts that beyond medicine the school name matters, just look at the law school graduates. It seems school name is the only thing they look at. Graduates from top schools get to decide which employers (who are begging them to go to them) they are going to give the privilege to hire them. Recently they even decided to "punish" employers who did not have enough URMs by not accepting their positions! Employers are now scrambling to fulfill those needs. This was amazing. Grad students telling their future employers what to do! On the other hand I have seen some law graduates come work for our firm and have a lower position than I do - and I don't even have a BS.

 

[flip26]

Good. I think we all pretty much agree that school name matters. The only problems arise when you try to quantify that - how much does it matter? This is why I said that it will differ for every individual. For some, it is a waste of money to pay for a brand name school. Why buy a Lamborghini if you are not really going to use its speed? If you have the money, the prestige might be good enough to obtain one, but otherwise it is a waste of money. With med schools the name might matter more if you are going to do something beyond day-to-day medicine: doing business like opening a hospital (your investors might not know about your Step scores and that all med schools are the same, only that Harvard is very good); getting involved in law to fight for medical rights or serve as an expert witness (the jury and the court will know you must be good because you went to Yale), etc, etc. The key here is "beyond" medicine. If anyone doubts that beyond medicine the school name matters, just look at the law school graduates. It seems school name is the only thing they look at. Graduates from top schools get to decide which employers (who are begging them to go to them) they are going to give the privilege to hire them. Recently they even decided to "punish" employers who did not have enough URMs by not accepting their positions! Employers are now scrambling to fulfill those needs. This was amazing. Grad students telling their future employers what to do! On the other hand I have seen some law graduates come work for our firm and have a lower position than I do - and I don't even have a BS.

Comparing the name "value" of med school to law (or MBA) school would only make sense if doctors were hired directly from med school AND the name of the med school the new hire attended would allow them to charge clients (in this case, patients) higher fees as is the case with the grads of top law and MBA schools...physician compensation does not work that way.