Going into Academia

[PetPony]

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Has anybody else here thought about going into academia? I know there are people who are/used to be teachers. Have you considered becoming a vet school professor?

I know some vet schools like it when you have experience backing up whichever path you go. How would I do that if I want to be a vet school professor? I like the thought of being a vet, but then also being able to do research and teach others what I love. Would I just shadow and shadow/do research? I will be shadowing at least one of my current vets during their research over the summer and am talking to one of my professors about doing my own research project afterwards (I'm interested in repro and hoping to do something with cattle in that direction).

I have heard that it is ok to get your DVM and do a masters, but that there are more options if you have a PhD. Is that true? I have talked to the vets I shadow and they both have PhDs.

I also like the thought of doing the combined DVM-PhD, because some schools will pay for the tuition. As an international student, I have no clue if I get as many loans as US citizens, so having even part of the tuition paid for would be nice. Do only certain schools pay for the PhD-DVM? If so, does anybody know if there is a list or could tell me if they already know.

I would also love to hear what everyone knows about their school's PhD program and if they are in it, what they think about it. I would love to talk to them whenever I have a question. Does anyone know of a blog related to it?

I have searched the forum and there is another thread, but it seems that it just totally went off topic after a while and I had some more questions. Of course, I have not yet done any research and need to do that first, but I am working on getting that experience.

 

[lostbunny]

I've thought about it and considered it, but I'm not sure I want to or am cut out to go onto a PhD in vet med. From my experience (which is field research) I've been deterred from research... but it still sits at the back of my mind and I realize that I don't have nearly enough experiences to make a real educated decision.... having said that I really love the thought of teaching but some of the vets I worked with taught vet tech/nurse courses and that is really appealing to me... teaching but not having to be a research nut and grow crazy hair and become a bit crazy (slightly). 😉

Sorry I don't have much real info for you... lol just sort of rambling on....

 

[PetPony]

It's ok if you don't have much to say yet, but I would love to hear more once you get the chance to think about it more.

What kind of research have you done?

 

[lostbunny]

I've worked as a field assistant on a few projects for PhD students. I did mostly data collection which consisted of watching birds, following them, counting them, stealing eggs and babies from nests, measuring chicks, and also setting up video monitoring/motion sensor cameras, counting and measuring stuff lol... basically all the b*tch work involved in data collection lol. Specifically on one of the projects I worked on, I basically lost most or all faith in the project... won't go into too many gory details- but the work just felt and later on 'said to be' redundant and useless... so I lost faith. But I've never done research or had experience (besides changing cages and sexing mice) in a lab or medical research which I think I'd enjoy much better.

The stuff I worked with before was more evolutionary biology type stuff using the animals as models rather then actually studying the animals themselves.... or using the animals as models for something cool like pathogens and pharmacology stuff.

 

[nyanko]

It is my goal to go into veterinary academia. But IIRC you're definitely a more traditional student than me - I took my time and got experience in research and teaching (both prior to and during graduate school) in addition to years of work as a vet assistant, before vet school.

Dual degree programs are very competitive for admissions. There are a few people here who have gotten into them - you should check the acceptances thread to find them. I did not have the undergraduate grades to be competitive for them, but have the research experience and backing to perhaps go straight into a postdoc after vet school. Or I'll do a Ph.D. Basically whatever I feel like doing at that time, I'll do. 😉

 

[PetPony]

This may be stupid, but.. what exactly is a postdoc?

 

[Fly Racing]

This may be stupid, but.. what exactly is a postdoc?

Post doctoral education. Literally education after your already a doctor. Similar to vet school being "postbacc".

 

[PetPony]

Post doctoral education. Literally education after your already a doctor. Similar to vet school being "postbacc".

So what would you do there as opposed to a PhD?

 

[nyanko]

No, not exactly postdoc education...no classes, you only have research and at some places you will also have teaching experience. You'll also make more than a Ph.D. student (though by no means is it extravagant haha).

Coming out of a Ph.D. (or rarely other doctoral program), most new scientists end up working under established principal investigators as postdoctoral research associates in order to better be able to get support for their own work as it is often really hard to get a tenure track position coming right out of graduate school. There are fellowships that are established for this purpose, and some people end up doing a few postdoctoral stints with various labs before finally establishing themselves independently.

 

[Marsala]

I would like to go into academia. My opinion, as someone coming from a PhD program, is that it sounds like a really bad idea to do a combined program. PhD programs are a lot of work. There are only 24 hours in a day, and sometimes that's not enough. I would focus on the DVM first (or the PhD), but both at once would be a nightmare, I think.

 

[SocialStigma]

I'm planning on going into academia later on in life. I have research experience from undergrad and starting this May I'll be conducting research at OVC as well.

My plan is to specialize in and obtain board certification for small animal surgery following vet school (at OVC, this involves going into the Doctor of Veterinary Science post-doc degree program). The DVSc degree involves both clinical training and research, so there's no need to pursue a Masters/PhD afterwards (if I'm not mistaken). Ideally I'd then practice as a surgeon for 30-40 years and come back to OVC to teach/conduct research afterwards.

 

[GellaBella]

I'm thinking of going into academia. I did a PhD before veterinary school and would like to be a professor and involved in research once I'm done. If you can get into a combined degree program it is DEFINITELY the way to go. But as an international student it may be more difficult and as Nyanko pointed out, they are SUPER competitive.

If you are thinking of applying dual degree your application has to be amazing. Most dual degree students I know have several years worth of research, excellent grades, and solid GRE scores. You will also still need to shadow/volunteer with many types of veterinarians, don't limit yourself to people in academia.

But all that being said, you don't need an advanced degree to teach/do research. We have plenty of vets teaching our clinical courses and doing research.

 

[PetPony]

Why do you think it would be harder to get into it as an international student? I am IS and am only worried about getting enough loans because I'm not a citizen. I didn't think it could affect that also.

 

[pooter]

I'm just hoping to get a residency. I'm pretty sure that'll be enough to flush any residual interest in research and teaching out of my system. 😉

That being said, Penn has a relatively cushy setup, finance wise, for those that make it into the dual degree program. If I remember right, three of the four years tuition for the VMD program are covered, and while you're doing your PhD research (another 4 or 5 years), you get the standard Penn stipend of $30,000/year. (Current students, correct me if my numbers are off; when they went over this at the beginning of the year, I was only kind of listening.) Of course, the two biggest drawbacks to this are

1) It's super competitive. About a quarter of the class applies for four or five positions, and since you apply during your first year, you won't know going into vet school whether you'll make the cut. And . . .

2) They will work you like a rented horse for the entire eight or nine years. The dual degree people have the distinct pleasure of taking extra grad-level classes in the evenings during core curriculum and then the thesis takes as long as it takes and then clinical rotations hit.

But, for those that love research, I'm told there isn't a more exciting place to be.

 

[Foxhunter]

PetPony, I'm not sure how/why it works this way, but many Dual Degree Program websites say international students may be disadvantaged. I'm certain it relates to funding in one way or another. Most of the dual degree programs are fairly new and sadly most of their websites aren't well updated (for example NCSU and CSU's websites both say that students are responsible for their DVM tuition, but I interviewed at both places and was told that tuition would be covered for dual students). I am definitely doing a dual degree program starting in the fall. Feel free to PM me with any questions!

Marsala- don't scare me too much- I'm starting a Dual Degree program in the fall (not too sure where yet, should know in the next two weeks)... haha!

 

[PetPony]

I'm hopefully meeting with someone from UGA next week to talk about their program. If I still have any question, I'll definitely PM you! Thank you!

If you could choose, which program would you go into?

 

[Foxhunter]

Penn's is by far the best funded (I've mentioned it before on other threads) it's the only one that has MSTP funding, so you get a stipend during the vet school years too. Alas, they flat out rejected me....

 

[nyanko]

Penn's is by far the best funded (I've mentioned it before on other threads) it's the only one that has MSTP funding, so you get a stipend during the vet school years too. Alas, they flat out rejected me....

You get a stipend during vet school years in the UC Davis VSTP too.

 

[FutResearchVet]

Has anybody else here thought about going into academia? I know there are people who are/used to be teachers. Have you considered becoming a vet school professor?

I know some vet schools like it when you have experience backing up whichever path you go. How would I do that if I want to be a vet school professor? I like the thought of being a vet, but then also being able to do research and teach others what I love. Would I just shadow and shadow/do research? I will be shadowing at least one of my current vets during their research over the summer and am talking to one of my professors about doing my own research project afterwards (I'm interested in repro and hoping to do something with cattle in that direction).

I have heard that it is ok to get your DVM and do a masters, but that there are more options if you have a PhD. Is that true? I have talked to the vets I shadow and they both have PhDs.

I also like the thought of doing the combined DVM-PhD, because some schools will pay for the tuition. As an international student, I have no clue if I get as many loans as US citizens, so having even part of the tuition paid for would be nice. Do only certain schools pay for the PhD-DVM? If so, does anybody know if there is a list or could tell me if they already know.

I would also love to hear what everyone knows about their school's PhD program and if they are in it, what they think about it. I would love to talk to them whenever I have a question. Does anyone know of a blog related to it?

I have searched the forum and there is another thread, but it seems that it just totally went off topic after a while and I had some more questions. Of course, I have not yet done any research and need to do that first, but I am working on getting that experience.

This is my 2 cents since I am about to complete my PhD (in reproductive physiology) before going into vet school this fall... both at UW-Madison:

I highly recommend you get as much experience in a research lab as possible before committing to a PhD and going into academia. Becoming a researcher is very different from what most people expect.
At first, you will be doing a lot of hand-on research and it is a lot of work. I easily work 60 hours a week and when its around the time for submitting an abstract or paper, 80 hours a week is not uncommon. It is stressful and you will feel isolate many times, because you will have this immense knowledge about subject "X" that almost no one, especially your family and friends, understands the way you understand it and you are constantly thinking about it. A PhD is 24 hours a day, I can attest to this because I often dream about my labwork (except it ends up being weird twisted versions of my labwork).

Most research professors that become successful spend ~80-90% of their time writing papers and grants, reading papers and grants. It is a lot of writing and reading and sitting at your desk staring at the computer for 10-12 hours a day. The average age for a PhD to establish a lab/become tenured is 42. Before you get tenured, you must spend all of your time trying to write grants to get funding. If you can't get funding, you will not get tenured, unless you become a teaching professor (aka... you mostly teach and do little research).

There are bright sides to going into academia.... you can choose what kind of research you want to do. If you are very passionate about the work, then it may be worth the time commitment and personal life sacrifices (this is, of course, personal choice... and I do have friends who love their research so much that it is worth it to them). Once you get tenured, you pretty much have job security for the rest of your life. If you discover something remarkable you can become famous/get lots of recognition in your field.

If you want to teach in academia, you don't necessarily need you PhD. A DVM will suffice. If you are really interested in the research aspect of academia then a PhD may be the way to go.

I definitely don't regret doing a PhD before vet school, but there have been times when I wanted to quit. It is a huge time, financial, and emotional commitment and something to not be taken lightly. But, the experiences and knowledge that I have gained from the PhD will be valuable to my future career, so it was worth it to me.

Good luck and PM me if you have anymore questions.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

If you want to teach in academia, you don't necessarily need you PhD. A DVM will suffice. If you are really interested in the research aspect of academia then a PhD may be the way to go.

I'm quite skeptical of this. Almost all department advertisements of faculty either "highly encourage" or require a PhD. Almost all professors I have interacted with at many schools have both. Not saying it can't be done, but you have a much tougher road ahead of you if you only have a DVM. Most positions pretty much expect you to bring in some kind of grant money, and if you don't have a research-type degree, well....

I'm also very interested in academia, and would love to work at a teaching hospital, but the pay just makes me shiver. I know several John Doe, DVM, PhD, Diplomate of whatever specialty, who have worked here for 10 -20 years and only earn ~90k.

 

[OH Bunny Girl]

Becoming a researcher is very different from what most people expect.

👍👍True!

My heart goes out to all of you who want to do research. I have been a research technician for almost 6 years now, after a thesis-track MS, and I CANNOT wait to leave the research business behind. I work for an MD who is incredibly smart and innovative (read: doing things no one else does so if you have questions you have no one to ask!) and I wouldn't wish his life on anyone.

All he does is write grants. And papers. And more grants. And then he reads grants for funding agencies. etc. etc. He maybe gets to do lab work two days of the year. All of his employees and PhD students do all the work. Again, and again, and again. And analyze data. Again and again and again. And because he is an MD, he is also on service in the connected hospital, and I think he gives guest lectures in classes on occasion.

And also something I've noticed - I've worked for 3 different PIs (Primary Investigators, my boss with the MD) and not a single one was/is married. It is very hard to balance a family life with the stress of creating some novel research goal and keeping it funded.

So, research is not for everyone. BUT, I will mention that he makes >$250K. So there is a reward at the end if you can handle it.

However, I do know that there are some clinicans in teaching hospitals who are clinicans as well as lecturers in the vet school. If I had to choose, I would go this route, but that's me.

 

[FutResearchVet]

I'm quite skeptical of this. Almost all department advertisements of faculty either "highly encourage" or require a PhD. Almost all professors I have interacted with at many schools have both. Not saying it can't be done, but you have a much tougher road ahead of you if you only have a DVM. Most positions pretty much expect you to bring in some kind of grant money, and if you don't have a research-type degree, well....

I think it might partially depend on what type of university/college you become a professor it. If it is a big research university, then you definitely will need research experience, even if you mostly teach. If it is a small community college with little research, then you may not need as much research experience, but I do think a MS in research in addition to the DVM would be good.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I think it might partially depend on what type of university/college you become a professor it. If it is a big research university, then you definitely will need research experience, even if you mostly teach. If it is a small community college with little research, then you may not need as much research experience, but I do think a MS in research in addition to the DVM would be good.

True, true. I was speaking mostly of being a professor at a vet school (all of which *are* big research universities), which it seemed the OP was most interested in. Honestly, I don't know if I could justify going to teach animal science or biology at an undergrad level....they can hire PhDs or MSs for that at a fraction of the cost of a DVM.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

However, I do know that there are some clinicans in teaching hospitals who are clinicans as well as lecturers in the vet school. If I had to choose, I would go this route, but that's me.

That's definitely what I would love to do. A mix of diagnostics, teaching and research. I just wish the additional PhD was not so universally desired for such jobs 🙁 However, that's probably where I will end up, maybe after a few years of a diagnostic lab or something to re-hone my skills after taking years off to to the PhD. Academia, despite the bureaucracy BS, is a very laid back environment, which I really like.

 

[PetPony]

This is my 2 cents since I am about to complete my PhD (in reproductive physiology) before going into vet school this fall... both at UW-Madison:

I highly recommend you get as much experience in a research lab as possible before committing to a PhD and going into academia. Becoming a researcher is very different from what most people expect.

There are bright sides to going into academia.... you can choose what kind of research you want to do. If you are very passionate about the work, then it may be worth the time commitment and personal life sacrifices (this is, of course, personal choice... and I do have friends who love their research so much that it is worth it to them). Once you get tenured, you pretty much have job security for the rest of your life. If you discover something remarkable you can become famous/get lots of recognition in your field.

If you want to teach in academia, you don't necessarily need you PhD. A DVM will suffice. If you are really interested in the research aspect of academia then a PhD may be the way to go.

I definitely don't regret doing a PhD before vet school, but there have been times when I wanted to quit. It is a huge time, financial, and emotional commitment and something to not be taken lightly. But, the experiences and knowledge that I have gained from the PhD will be valuable to my future career, so it was worth it to me.

Good luck and PM me if you have anymore questions.

I am interested in repro, too, and I am trying to find someone that I can work with/shadow related to it. One of my professors, who teaches repro, says we can talk about setting up a small research project with reproduction next year. I will be shadowing a vet school professor over the summer who does research with horses and I will be talking to my other vet on Tuesday about shadowing her research, because she works with cattle, which I really like. That would be for the rest of the semester then.

One of my vets also told me that I don't really need a PhD, but should at least get a masters. And that it would be easier to get a job with a PhD.

I think it might partially depend on what type of university/college you become a professor it. If it is a big research university, then you definitely will need research experience, even if you mostly teach. If it is a small community college with little research, then you may not need as much research experience, but I do think a MS in research in addition to the DVM would be good.

True, true. I was speaking mostly of being a professor at a vet school (all of which *are* big research universities), which it seemed the OP was most interested in. Honestly, I don't know if I could justify going to teach animal science or biology at an undergrad level....they can hire PhDs or MSs for that at a fraction of the cost of a DVM.

Yes, I definitely would want to be one at a vet school.

👍👍True!

My heart goes out to all of you who want to do research. I have been a research technician for almost 6 years now, after a thesis-track MS, and I CANNOT wait to leave the research business behind. I work for an MD who is incredibly smart and innovative (read: doing things no one else does so if you have questions you have no one to ask!) and I wouldn't wish his life on anyone.

However, I do know that there are some clinicans in teaching hospitals who are clinicans as well as lecturers in the vet school. If I had to choose, I would go this route, but that's me.

That's definitely what I would love to do. A mix of diagnostics, teaching and research. I just wish the additional PhD was not so universally desired for such jobs 🙁 However, that's probably where I will end up, maybe after a few years of a diagnostic lab or something to re-hone my skills after taking years off to to the PhD. Academia, despite the bureaucracy BS, is a very laid back environment, which I really like.

(I know I talk too much about what my vet says, but so far she has been the only one to talk to me about it, so that's most of what I know..)

The vet I shadow said that there are some that focus more on research and others that focus more on teaching and being in the hospital. I would like to do more teaching though.

Bunny, I am trying hard to get some experience with research, because I realize I might not like it.

 

[OH Bunny Girl]

Bunny, I am trying hard to get some experience with research, because I realize I might not like it.

I think that's a great idea. There are always lots of opportunities to do research as an undergrad, professors love "free" students that they don't have to pay. And you may get your name on a publication which will help your vet school apps, even if you don't want to go into research in the end.

 

[PetPony]

I think that's a great idea. There are always lots of opportunities to do research as an undergrad, professors love "free" students that they don't have to pay. And you may get your name on a publication which will help your vet school apps, even if you don't want to go into research in the end.

I thought so, too. Even if I won't do a PhD or any research, then at least it would put some more diversity in my app.

 

[Foxhunter]

I must say, the fact that I had my name on 2 publications in relatively big journals in my field was a huge help to my application. It got brought up a lot in interviews and I could often just spend the rest of time talking about how awesome my research is and why I love free radicals!

 

[ANY2003]

I would like to go into academia. My opinion, as someone coming from a PhD program, is that it sounds like a really bad idea to do a combined program. PhD programs are a lot of work. There are only 24 hours in a day, and sometimes that's not enough. I would focus on the DVM first (or the PhD), but both at once would be a nightmare, I think.

You don't do both at once. You typically do the first year or two of vet school, then the PhD, then finish up your last 2-3 years in vet school.

 

[PetPony]

You don't do both at once. You typically do the first year or two of vet school, then the PhD, then finish up your last 2-3 years in vet school.

I thought I read something about the UGA program doing a bit of the PhD, then the DVM classes, finishing the PhD and then the clinical rotations. But it now sounds weird to me to split the PhD up like that. And I can't find where I saw that, so..

 

[that redhead]

I've considered it. Perspective at this moment in time: I'll get there when I get there. I really doubt I'll have enough gas in the tank (or money, ha) to continue my education in a formal PhD program. After four years of intense education I think I'll want to get out there and start making money and being a vet instead of continuing to slog through a heavy academic setting. It may be that I decide to do lab animal work outside of an academic institution, but I feel that at its heart, lab animal and academia are so closely tied that I'll never be able to get away entirely 🙄 That's okay with me in the long run, but right out of school? Not so much. Sorry I can't be more helpful!

 

[Foxhunter]

NCSU and CSU do one year grad school, 2 years vet school, finish thesis, clinical years of vet school. Cornell gives you the choice of doing all DVM then all PhD or splitting it up, but you are expected to do research every summer.

 

[Bismarck]

NCSU and CSU do one year grad school, 2 years vet school, finish thesis, clinical years of vet school. Cornell gives you the choice of doing all DVM then all PhD or splitting it up, but you are expected to do research every summer.

Would add that Cornell's choice may be illusory as grant money has a shelf life ("use it or lose it") and if your project has a limited funding window you may have to take the plunge at that moment.