Going to Dental School Will Almost Surely Wreck Your Finances

[allantois]

Who would pay the professors and everyone that works at the college?

Education is free in countries such as Germany. They also don't have oversupply issues due to overnight proliferation of for-profit schools hunting for government loan money. Not to mention their 65+ population is a lot higher than in the US, yet they are not facing a bankruptcy over Medicare.

Oh yeah? Is it really that awesome to get "free stuff"? In the US, the average GDP per capita is $56,115. In Euro, that is $52,665. So, let's look at income tax on those numbers in the US vs. Germany.

In the US, if you make $56,115 - you will pay 25% of your income to taxes.
In Germany, if you make that same amount ($52,665 Euros), you will pay 42% of your income to taxes. But it would be harder to make that much money in Germany because their GDP is $15,000 per year lower than ours.



No thanks, I'd rather pay for my education once, then have have the hell taxed out of me for the rest of my life. Germany has also only recently had "free college", and it is already experiencing a quality decline with budget cuts. Because, you know, everything a government runs is susceptible to budget cuts - and it also puts more responsibility into the hands of incompetent (and corrupt) politicians.

Your crony capitalism is failing in every way imaginable. With dental education being a prime example of this.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

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[Cranjis McBasketball]

Education is free in countries such as Germany. They don't have oversupply issue due to overnight proliferation of for-profit schools hunting for government loan money either. Not to mention their 65+ population is a lot higher than in the US, yet they are not facing bankruptcy over Medicare style insurance.

Fair point. Except I don't know if we can just compare countries head on. The United States has been ranked as less healthy than Germany and other countries that have a "medicare" for all. That being said, I completely agree with people that say we don't have an financial crisis in financing health care. The United States has a health crisis in financing health care.

 

[distressstudent]

Lots of updates since I published this. Trump is going to try to repeal REPAYE, PAYE, IBR, and PSLF for everyone taking out loans after July 1, 2018. A lot of people on this forum will fall into that category. People with older loans get grandfathered in.

What does that mean for you? That makes the income driven repayment options about 30% more expensive. It makes private refinancing a lot more appealing.

Another thing I'm trying to convince the student loan refinancing companies of is to offer direct lending to dental students to replace grad plus loans at a 7% interest and 4.27% origination fee with a private loan from like CommonBond or Sofi for 5% with no origination fee. You might replace Grad Plus with private loans in dental school then refinance the rest once you have a higher income.

Right now the only companies willing to do this are if you have parents willing to cosign. Still decent way to save money if your parents don't mind having their name on the loan docs.

Effective for all new loans, or just new borrowers?

I am reading some text that considers new borrowers to be anyone still taking loans after the proposed date. Which means someone who entered school in 2015 but still took out loans in 2019 would be a "new borrower"

My reading of the proposal itself seems to suggest that anyone that has taken out loans before july 2018 will still have the old IDR available to them even if they take out more loans in the future.

Interesting to note that the proposal seems to really hone in on helping undergrad and specifically not graduate students. Trump IDR is 15 years for undergrads and 30 years of graduate students. (But good thing we are professional students and not graduate students. Right guys? Right? )

 

[Likkriue]

Nope 30 years for us.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Based on this new scenario and Direct Plus loans as they are today, would getting a $130K bank loan to fund the balance after unsubsidized loans be a better choice to avoid the high loan fees and higher interest of Direct Plus? I want to minimize fees and compounding interest and plan to pay off my loans within 10 years.

I really can't stomach the high loan fees on Direct Plus. They make the APR ridiculously high and more like a payday loan.

If you're going to a place with total cost less than 400k and your parents are really nice and will cosign then I'm working on a way to get people sub 6% w no origination fee. That would only be for replacing Grad Plus I'd still take the stafford.

What I want is to convince the refinancing cos to offer a direct product to D2 and up students to eliminate grad plus without a cosigner. That's probably worth 20-40k in interest but I'd have to run the numbers to be sure

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Effective for all new loans, or just new borrowers?

I am reading some text that considers new borrowers to be anyone still taking loans after the proposed date. Which means someone who entered school in 2015 but still took out loans in 2019 would be a "new borrower"

My reading of the proposal itself seems to suggest that anyone that has taken out loans before july 2018 will still have the old IDR available to them even if they take out more loans in the future.

Interesting to note that the proposal seems to really hone in on helping undergrad and specifically not graduate students. Trump IDR is 15 years for undergrads and 30 years of graduate students. (But good thing we are professional students and not graduate students. Right guys? Right? )

Lol no you guys probably get lumped in w the grad students

Confirmed today that PSLF/ REPAYE /PAYE /IBR are all still around for ppl who are taking out loans pre july 1 2018. You could have someone who has 3 years of REPAYE eligible loans and 1 year of trump eligible loans. That's like how it is now with FFEL and direct, I see ppl w 2 years FFEL and 2 years Direct so you consolidate the FFEL to make them REPAYE / PAYE eligible.

There's language about IDR plans being available only to pre July 1 ppl or those who are taking out loans after that point to continue a course of study by that date.

Here's my latest thoughts on it if that's ok to share here, if not somebody just let me know: Trump Student Loan Repayment Could Cost You a Lot More Money - Student Loan Planner

Summary is Trump plan about 30% to 70% more expensive than PAYE / REPAYE. Long term grad school costs are going waaaay up. Refinancing will be the only attractive option if this goes through

 

[distressstudent]

Lol no you guys probably get lumped in w the grad students

Confirmed today that PSLF/ REPAYE /PAYE /IBR are all still around for ppl who are taking out loans pre july 1 2018. You could have someone who has 3 years of REPAYE eligible loans and 1 year of trump eligible loans. That's like how it is now with FFEL and direct, I see ppl w 2 years FFEL and 2 years Direct so you consolidate the FFEL to make them REPAYE / PAYE eligible.

There's language about IDR plans being available only to pre July 1 ppl or those who are taking out loans after that point to continue a course of study by that date.

Here's my latest thoughts on it if that's ok to share here, if not somebody just let me know: Trump Student Loan Repayment Could Cost You a Lot More Money - Student Loan Planner

Summary is Trump plan about 30% to 70% more expensive than PAYE / REPAYE. Long term grad school costs are going waaaay up. Refinancing will be the only attractive option if this goes through

Got a source on where it was confirmed? I would be interested in reading more about it.

So current students would still be eligible for PLSF, but only part of their balance will be actually forgiven. I wonder if students would still consider that route to be worth it.

Be interesting to see if this proposal gets passed. Seems pretty reasonable to me since no one ever seems to care about graduate student anyways.

 

[Universitygeek]

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Got a source on where it was confirmed? I would be interested in reading more about it.

So current students would still be eligible for PLSF, but only part of their balance will be actually forgiven. I wonder if students would still consider that route to be worth it.

Be interesting to see if this proposal gets passed. Seems pretty reasonable to me since no one ever seems to care about graduate student anyways.

Took me a bit, but the Whitehouse.gov FY 2018 budget proposal page 20 you'll find this verbiage: Source https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/omb/budget/fy2018/budget.pdf

"These reforms will reduce inefficiencies in the student loan program and focus assistance on needy undergraduate student borrowers instead of high-income, high-balance graduate borrowers. All student loan proposals apply to loans originated on or after July 1, 2018, except those provided to borrowers to finish their current course of study."

To me that sounds like what they're saying is that people who start a program before july 1 2018 get access to all these programs because they would've started their program before the cutoff date. The way I read that, anybody going to dental school after that date would only have access to the Trump plan which would really suck compared to existing programs

 

[Baltar215]

I would love to know from the pre-dental students what the interview process has been like. What have schools told you about financing the education? Has anyone heard challenges made to the dental school deans? I'm imagining no one would want to say anything until they get the acceptance. I've heard on another thread that USC was having some trouble so they included a presentation on IBR and PAYE while leaving out the downsides of the programs. Seems like students are becoming a little price sensitive at the most expensive programs.

I graduated dental school in 2005. I still vaguely remember parts of the application process. I remember getting a tour of the school, and then sitting in a room with other prospective students. We were listening to a talk by one of the dental school admin professors. He went on about how that school was ranked #1 that year for dental schools in the country and so on. Then one person raised his hand and asked what the total cost of 4 years education at the dental school was and what the starting salary is that we could expect after graduation. The reply was basically him joking around about how we don't have to worry, because we would all be driving BMW's and owning boats after we graduate. I wonder if these same things are still being said to dental school applicants to lure them in.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

I graduated dental school in 2005. I still vaguely remember parts of the application process. I remember getting a tour of the school, and then sitting in a room with other prospective students. We were listening to a talk by one of the dental school admin professors. He went on about how that school was ranked #1 that year for dental schools in the country and so on. Then one person raised his hand and asked what the total cost of 4 years education at the dental school was and what the starting salary is that we could expect after graduation. The reply was basically him joking around about how we don't have to worry, because we would all be driving BMW's and owning boats after we graduate. I wonder if these same things are still being said to dental school applicants to lure them in.

According to a lot of the younger dentists I've spoken with, the admins at some schools will outright lie about their repayment statistics and say things like "the average repayment period here is 7 years" when it's totally false. Nobody records them saying that of course so there's no case for fraud.

 

[aggie-master]

I pay 3k per month with after tax money in student loans but it is getting paid off very slowly. That costs me about 55k of my pre-tax income. Most dentists get zero benefits which means things like healthcare, disability insurance, life insurance etc come out of your income after taxes too. The IRS takes a big chunk of your income as a dentist.

If you think you are going to get 500k in debt and make 200k as a dentist and live the good life you are sorely mistaken. That 200k pre-tax income will be less than 100k if you are paying your 500k loan on a 10 year note. Your other option is to use the government forgiveness where the note balance goes up and up and up and you hope it gets forgiven at the end.

If you want to be a dentist Insuggest that you have rich parents or go to a really cheap school and come out with 330k or less in debt and then when you get out figure out a way to be a top 15% dentist in income where you can make 300k, give the IRS a big chunk, give student loans a big chunk, save a big chunk, and still have enough money to own a decent home a take family trips once a year.

 

[GypsyHummus]

200k is what after taxes, like 140k depending on state? Live off of 40k/year, pay the 100k in student loans, and be debt free in six years. That’s assuming your income stays at a flat 200k.

You don’t have to buy a 350k home. Buy a 100k home and live frugally for those six or seven years. Then do the same for anouther 7 and invest. I’d imagine being on the other side of compound interest is pretty sweet.

I pay 3k per month with after tax money in student loans but it is getting paid off very slowly. That costs me about 55k of my pre-tax income. Most dentists get zero benefits which means things like healthcare, disability insurance, life insurance etc come out of your income after taxes too. The IRS takes a big chunk of your income as a dentist.

If you think you are going to get 500k in debt and make 200k as a dentist and live the good life you are sorely mistaken. That 200k pre-tax income will be less than 100k if you are paying your 500k loan on a 10 year note. Your other option is to use the government forgiveness where the note balance goes up and up and up and you hope it gets forgiven at the end.

If you want to be a dentist Insuggest that you have rich parents or go to a really cheap school and come out with 330k or less in debt and then when you get out figure out a way to be a top 15% dentist in income where you can make 300k, give the IRS a big chunk, give student loans a big chunk, save a big chunk, and still have enough money to own a decent home a take family trips once a year.

 

[Dentalman2017]

Travis, as usual, thought provoking post! I couldn't agree more that school deans are flat out preying on myself and other pre-dental students. There is no way that the cost to educate a dental student has increased 2-3x in the past decade.

In your opinion, what do you see as the "deal killer" tuition that you suggest students walk away from attending dental school? To me, I see anything above $60k/yr (before cost of living) is going to be a debt hole that you can't dig out of. Could you give the audience your thoughts on what are "maximum" tuition numbers to shoot for if we are expecting to make ~$135k for the first 5 years after graduation and then $250k/yr for the next 15 yrs (assuming wages remain stagnate)?

Thanks!

 

[2TH MVR]

No way I was going to read this entire thread, but wow. Just wow.
Look. The take home message is that there is a limit to how much you should borrow. Stay within that boundary and your future life will be alright. Outside that boundary .... well .... enough has been said here. This information is so common sense that it shocks me to see people still going to these expensive private schools.

I graduated with less than a 100K in 1993. Might have been 80 or 90K. Scholarships to attend undergrad state school. Cheap midwest dental school. AEGD program paid a stipend. Ortho grad program paid a stipend. 2 yr vs 3 ortho program. The point is when I graduated .... I still drove a crappy car for a few years. Lived in an apartment with my wife and 1st child for 3 years. Then we bought our 1st home for around $230K. We lived FRUGALLY for the 1st 5-6 years ..... then, as a result of saving ...... life is good. Really good. Not overly wealthy, but comfortable and happy.

Dentistry is a great lifestyle occupation. Lots of really talented future dentists on this board. Don't mortgage your future life with bad early financial decisions. If your excuse to this is ..... due to weaker stats .... you have to attend an expensive, private school .... then maybe you should question your career direction. Also it's been said many times here that the choice of dental school will have no affect on your dental future. Patients DO NOT CARE where you graduated from. Most of your real clinical education will come from private practice. How about the excuse that you need to go to an IVY or reputable school to get into a specialty. No. If you weren't motivated to get great stats in the 1st place to position yourself to get into a cheaper school .... what makes you think that REAL LIFE as a dentist is going to be any easier?

I work in a Corp office PT after 26 years of private practice. I work with a lot of young dentists: general and specialists. Interestingly ... most of these dentists graduated from the local DS: AT Stills or MWU Glendale. All they talk about is their $400-500K debt. They go about their business, but deep down .... they're worried.

 

[chiralola]

I am so grateful for this post. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I never even took into account the prices of schools. I always thought, eh, who cares, I’ll be a dentist so I’ll pay it off no problem. Now I see that is not the case....

Really glad I saw this before filling out the secondaries for MWU. That’s not going to happen now.

Thank you!

 

[Hunterdan]

I am so grateful for this post. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I never even took into account the prices of schools. I always thought, eh, who cares, I’ll be a dentist so I’ll pay it off no problem. Now I see that is not the case....

Really glad I saw this before filling out the secondaries for MWU. That’s not going to happen now.

Thank you!

Lol funny to think that people actually think like this. Price should be one of the first things any pre-dent looks at when choosing schools to apply to. Look at price early on as well, this helped me realize the importance of getting good scores and grades. Do well to get into a state school or a school that gives instate tuition after the first year and the debt load will be more bearable.

 

[Blueshirts]

@Student Loan Planner Travis, one question if you might be able to provide some insight. With students loan interest rates now ballooning, with a refinance after dental school on the full amount of loans (for individuals with 300-350k in accrued, now capitalized) how many percentage points (or range of for that matter) can a new dentist expect to see after establishing themselves as an earner?

 

[O Gaúcho]

I am so grateful for this post. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I never even took into account the prices of schools. I always thought, eh, who cares, I’ll be a dentist so I’ll pay it off no problem. Now I see that is not the case....

Really glad I saw this before filling out the secondaries for MWU. That’s not going to happen now.

Thank you!

This type of mentality is also incorrect imo. The idea that because you are not going to one of the top 5 most expensive dental schools so now you're good. I guarantee that most of the schools you are applying to don't fall to far from the COA of MWU. And will put you in almost an identical position as a MWU/NYU grad.

 

[chiralola]

This type of mentality is also incorrect imo. The idea that because you are not going to one of the top 5 most expensive dental schools so now you're good. I guarantee that most of the schools you are applying to don't fall to far from the COA of MWU. And will put you in almost an identical position as a MWU/NYU grad.

Considering my state school is $35k/yr and MWU is $75k, I disagree, as that is what I am aiming for. Although I do see your point as most schools are ~$65k. However I am not willing to put myself in that situation either. I simply used MWU as an example.

 

[O Gaúcho]

Considering my state school is $35k/yr and MWU is $75k, I disagree, as that is what I am aiming for. Although I do see your point as most schools are ~$65k. However I am not willing to put myself in that situation either. I simply used MWU as an example.

I said that I guarantee that most of the schools you are applying to are also pretty expensive. But 35k a year has to be about THE cheapest school. Most of us are not so fortunate so that is awesome!

 

[Sweet_Tooth]

No way I was going to read this entire thread, but wow. Just wow.
Look. The take home message is that there is a limit to how much you should borrow. Stay within that boundary and your future life will be alright. Outside that boundary .... well .... enough has been said here. This information is so common sense that it shocks me to see people still going to these expensive private schools.

I graduated with less than a 100K in 1993. Might have been 80 or 90K. Scholarships to attend undergrad state school. Cheap midwest dental school. AEGD program paid a stipend. Ortho grad program paid a stipend. 2 yr vs 3 ortho program. The point is when I graduated .... I still drove a crappy car for a few years. Lived in an apartment with my wife and 1st child for 3 years. Then we bought our 1st home for around $230K. We lived FRUGALLY for the 1st 5-6 years ..... then, as a result of saving ...... life is good. Really good. Not overly wealthy, but comfortable and happy.

Dentistry is a great lifestyle occupation. Lots of really talented future dentists on this board. Don't mortgage your future life with bad early financial decisions. If your excuse to this is ..... due to weaker stats .... you have to attend an expensive, private school .... then maybe you should question your career direction. Also it's been said many times here that the choice of dental school will have no affect on your dental future. Patients DO NOT CARE where you graduated from. Most of your real clinical education will come from private practice. How about the excuse that you need to go to an IVY or reputable school to get into a specialty. No. If you weren't motivated to get great stats in the 1st place to position yourself to get into a cheaper school .... what makes you think that REAL LIFE as a dentist is going to be any easier?

I work in a Corp office PT after 26 years of private practice. I work with a lot of young dentists: general and specialists. Interestingly ... most of these dentists graduated from the local DS: AT Stills or MWU Glendale. All they talk about is their $400-500K debt. They go about their business, but deep down .... they're worried.

What's your advice to someone whose only acceptance was an expensive private school, but who still wants to be a dentist?

Unfortunately nowadays it's so competitive that even if you do everything right, a seat at your local state school isn't guaranteed.

 

[allantois]

What's your advice to someone whose only acceptance was an expensive private school, but who still wants to be a dentist?

Unfortunately nowadays it's so competitive that even if you do everything right, a seat at your local state school isn't guaranteed.

Look into other careers

 

[Life of Pablo]

What's your advice to someone whose only acceptance was an expensive private school, but who still wants to be a dentist?

Unfortunately nowadays it's so competitive that even if you do everything right, a seat at your local state school isn't guaranteed.

And a seat at your local state school may still not be cheap.

 

[2TH MVR]

What's your advice to someone whose only acceptance was an expensive private school, but who still wants to be a dentist?

Unfortunately nowadays it's so competitive that even if you do everything right, a seat at your local state school isn't guaranteed.

Well... I've always wanted a 458 Ferrari Italia. I could pay cash or take out a loan, but both options are poor financial decisions.
What I'm saying is that there are better careers out there that require less mortgaging of your life.
As an analogy .... Compare yourself with a person trying to buy their 1st house. If you have no or poor credit. Low paying job. No savings. You will be paying HIGHER mortgage rates. Same goes with buying a car.
If you enter the dental profession with large debt ... >400K ... The 1st 10-15yrs will be financially difficult.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

What's your advice to someone whose only acceptance was an expensive private school, but who still wants to be a dentist?

HPSP.

Big Hoss

 

[LFA20]

Considering my state school is $35k/yr and MWU is $75k, I disagree, as that is what I am aiming for. Although I do see your point as most schools are ~$65k. However I am not willing to put myself in that situation either. I simply used MWU as an example.

that $35k is only tuition though right? I bet the COA is around 50-60k/year. Don’t forget you have to pay for boards, licensing exam, retakes of either one of them, patients for the exam, study materials, etc. list goes on and on...

 

[aggie-master]

What's your advice to someone whose only acceptance was an expensive private school, but who still wants to be a dentist?

Unfortunately nowadays it's so competitive that even if you do everything right, a seat at your local state school isn't guaranteed.

I think the other posters gave you great advice. Look into other careers, get a military scholarship, or be poor for the next twenty years.

 

[HopefulTexanDDS]

Bump. 2022 is here, anyone have differing and adding thoughts? Thank you.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

Bump. 2022 is here, anyone have differing and adding thoughts? Thank you.

I do. I have some thoughts, but probably not any different than the ones already posted. Look, the simple fact of the matter is if you look at other threads, you will see the same thing: dental school costs are increasing, and they don't appear to be slowing down any time soon. 2TH MVR's post (#1,265) above is succinct and goes over this very well.

I got introduced to this forum a few years ago by a friend who I served alongside with. He was a dentist who had done HPSP and was wanting to get out to do a peds residency. He sent me a thread on SDN (which I can't remember specifically, but it had to do with healthcare in the military), and wanted to see if I had similar experiences, as I worked alongside many HPSP physicians and was healthcare myself. But what I do remember was that it had a lot of good advice from Big Hoss. From that point on, I've been lurking here and only recently created an account. But I've learned a lot about dental school costs and whatnot from Big Hoss, charlestweed, 2TH MVR, Cold Front, TanMan, and many, many others. The info is out there, and you should definitely pay attention to how dental school costs will affect your finances. Do the math and follow the numbers (or better yet, look at the plethora of threads already on here showing it to you). Costs are rising, insurances are paying less, and inflation is always rearing its head. Have a plan of how you will pay for it. Do not just think "it'll all work out, I won't worry". Dental school could potentially lead to a rewarding life (from what I've seen posted) or it could just be the worst financial mistake of your life. Heed people's advice when they are trying to help you. Good luck, Hopeful.

 

[Middle Age DDS]

This is a new thought on the same idea of being careful about how much debt you get yourself into. Before you even take the DAT and apply. Sit down with the mirror, parents, SO, a financial planner. How much debt are you willing to incur in order to become a dentist??? This should be the driving force behind a school list.

If the answer is, "I don't care"......NYU, USC, Nova and all these new proprietary schools would love to have you drop an app. If it is say "only" 350-400. Your list may be very short.......or maybe you consider doing something else. I just think this student loan debt issue is so crippling....everyone needs to have their eyes open. I know there are programs where you pay a percentage of your income for 25, 30 years. I am unsure if this is the correct answer for most young dentists but explore this arena as well. With all these schools opening, there is going to be a glut of young dentists coming out in the years to come. It may not affect me too much, but it will affect you. Ok back to happy thoughts..........

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

But what I do remember was that it had a lot of good advice from Big Hoss.

Big Hoss

 

[HopefulTexanDDS]

The info is out there, and you should definitely pay attention to how dental school costs will affect your finances. Do the math and follow the numbers (or better yet, look at the plethora of threads already on here showing it to you).

Thanks for following up after me, and I feel this... I've been doing so much math and number crunching, I hope I'm calculating everything right. It's overwhelming. :/

If it is say "only" 350-400. Your list may be very short.......or maybe you consider doing something else. I just think this student loan debt issue is so crippling...

I've been doing a lot of soul searching. I'd need to get into one of my in-state (Texas) schools, or else my dreams may be over. I feel like if I go OOS, I might not mind living frugal for 10~ years post-dental graduation but I'm not alone. I have a serious SO that I want to have a future with, so taking on such loans may not be ideal for a marriage so early on and it may postpone some life events too.

 

[askadds]

Just came across this thread and mind you its from 2017. Wonder how much more it is now. I feel bad for predental students who are blindly led by admission counselors who have no idea about the financial burden. SMH

 

[blablabla1]

I started dental school when this thread was created. Now I’m in Ortho residency and love it. But I’m also lucky because I will be graduating with “only” about 300k in loans.

In all honesty, I don’t think I would’ve chosen dentistry/Ortho as my career path if I was in a position to enter dental school now. Not ever since the pandemic completely changed the work from home corporate culture and it became a job seeker’s market. I would’ve gone into something like consulting, product management, software development, etc instead and just constantly switched jobs to increase my income, all while accruing no further debt, having great flexibility that allows me to actually take care of myself, having no loans, and being able to enjoy my 20s.

Of course, after I graduate from residency next year, I will gain more flexibility and will be earning more than what I’d probably be earning if I took a different route. But I’ll also have a pile of loans to start chipping away at.

There was no way for me to predict that a pandemic would change corporate work culture (that I originally despised) forever and I don’t necessarily regret the decisions I made as being an orthodontist is seriously awesome and rewarding. But would I take a different route knowing what I know now? Absolutely.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

I started dental school when this thread was created. Now I’m in Ortho residency and love it. But I’m also lucky because I will be graduating with “only” about 300k in loans.

In all honesty, I don’t think I would’ve chosen dentistry/Ortho as my career path if I was in a position to enter dental school now. Not ever since the pandemic completely changed the work from home corporate culture and it became a job seeker’s market. I would’ve gone into something like consulting, product management, software development, etc instead and just constantly switched jobs to increase my income, all while accruing no further debt, having great flexibility that allows me to actually take care of myself, having no loans, and being able to enjoy my 20s.

Of course, after I graduate from residency next year, I will gain more flexibility and will be earning more than what I’d probably be earning if I took a different route. But I’ll also have a pile of loans to start chipping away at.

There was no way for me to predict that a pandemic would change corporate work culture (that I originally despised) forever and I don’t necessarily regret the decisions I made as being an orthodontist is seriously awesome and rewarding. But would I take a different route knowing what I know now? Absolutely.

Not attacking you here, just voicing some thoughts. About your last paragraph, I think everyone would wish to change certain parts of their past with the knowledge they have now. As a mental exercise, think if you had gone to the corporate culture. You probably would have had more money younger and faster and no loans, but you also probably would have hated your career and would not have found it fulfilling in the slightest. Maybe you would have created an account on SDN and asked the prospects of a non-trad switching from the corporate slog to dentistry/ortho. Maybe not.

Grass is always greener am I right?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I started dental school when this thread was created. Now I’m in Ortho residency and love it. But I’m also lucky because I will be graduating with “only” about 300k in loans.

In all honesty, I don’t think I would’ve chosen dentistry/Ortho as my career path if I was in a position to enter dental school now. Not ever since the pandemic completely changed the work from home corporate culture and it became a job seeker’s market. I would’ve gone into something like consulting, product management, software development, etc instead and just constantly switched jobs to increase my income, all while accruing no further debt, having great flexibility that allows me to actually take care of myself, having no loans, and being able to enjoy my 20s.

Of course, after I graduate from residency next year, I will gain more flexibility and will be earning more than what I’d probably be earning if I took a different route. But I’ll also have a pile of loans to start chipping away at.

There was no way for me to predict that a pandemic would change corporate work culture (that I originally despised) forever and I don’t necessarily regret the decisions I made as being an orthodontist is seriously awesome and rewarding. But would I take a different route knowing what I know now? Absolutely.

Hopefully corporate dentistry won't feel just like the usual corporate work culture... but I have obviously heard differently. You can't treat dental issues on Zoom that well. (Though I'm sure someone's working on it.)

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

Hopefully corporate dentistry won't feel just like the usual corporate work culture... but I have obviously heard differently. You can't treat dental issues on Zoom that well. (Though I'm sure someone's working on it.)

I'm sure they are. Probably under the guise of reaching people in far-flung areas who don't have easy and affordable access to dental care. But to be honest, it's because what we as society value nowadays. We want things, and we want them NOW. We want to be able to order our foods and goods online and get them almost instantaneously, all without leaving the relative comfort of our couches/bed/home. I'm sure that's part of the reason why Smile Direct Club exists: to reach that intended audience.

 

[D1Bound]

I started dental school when this thread was created. Now I’m in Ortho residency and love it. But I’m also lucky because I will be graduating with “only” about 300k in loans.

In all honesty, I don’t think I would’ve chosen dentistry/Ortho as my career path if I was in a position to enter dental school now. Not ever since the pandemic completely changed the work from home corporate culture and it became a job seeker’s market. I would’ve gone into something like consulting, product management, software development, etc instead and just constantly switched jobs to increase my income, all while accruing no further debt, having great flexibility that allows me to actually take care of myself, having no loans, and being able to enjoy my 20s.

Of course, after I graduate from residency next year, I will gain more flexibility and will be earning more than what I’d probably be earning if I took a different route. But I’ll also have a pile of loans to start chipping away at.

There was no way for me to predict that a pandemic would change corporate work culture (that I originally despised) forever and I don’t necessarily regret the decisions I made as being an orthodontist is seriously awesome and rewarding. But would I take a different route knowing what I know now? Absolutely.

I agree if I had to apply to dental now I would have to take a long pause. For your situation though I’ll bet the farm your tune will change about the pennies of student loans you have when you bang out 700k as an ortho. And the job security as an ortho has got to be infinitely better than any corporate gig

 

[2TH MVR]

But to be honest, it's because what we as society value nowadays. We want things, and we want them NOW. We want to be able to order our foods and goods online and get them almost instantaneously, all without leaving the relative comfort of our couches/bed/home. I'm sure that's part of the reason why Smile Direct Club exists: to reach that intended audience.

You're starting to sound like me lol. I've posted many times that the consumer trends you see today is the reason for the corporatization of America. Don't blame the dental Corps. They're simply coming along for the ride.

A dental practice is a small business. A Mom and Pop. Pretty hard to compete with the Corps. Of course. There will always be a place for private practices, but they will mostly thrive in the rural areas.

 

[Advance]

I agree if I had to apply to dental now I would have to take a long pause. For your situation though I’ll bet the farm your tune will change about the pennies of student loans you have when you bang out 700k as an ortho. And the job security as an ortho has got to be infinitely better than any corporate gig

Ortho definitely isn’t as safe as you make it out to be. Mega ortho residencies are opening up (Georgia) and accept a ridiculous amount of residents (36). Once they realize dentists will pay whatever absurd tuition they charge I’m sure these programs will become more and more common.

The successful orthos I know went rural and/or travel from office to office to stay busy.

 

[planisphere]

The forum users over at Dental Town suggested I post over here on the predental section of SDN to show you what you're up against. Yes there will be some dental students who go to school and succeed against the odds, but many of the dental school deans are lying to you.

No dental school is not a good financial decision. The cost of attendance they hand you is about 30% lower than it will actually be because it doesn't include accrued interest, tuition increases, or origination fees.

I've ran breakeven analysis on when it makes sense to go to dental school vs taking a job straight out of undergrad. For corporate dentistry, the breakeven for the class of 2021 is in about 2089. For practice owners, that breakeven is about 2054.

Here is the truth. If you go to a private dental school, your average debt will be about $550,000 when you graduate in four years. If you go public, it will be around $400,000. The average starting salary adjusted for inflation is going to be around $130,000. You will rely on federal student loan policy just to survive financially.

If you go to one of the more expensive dental schools like Pacific, NYU, Tufts, etc, the average student will leave with something between $600,000-$650,000 in loans, especially if you already have some from undergrad.

Feel free to challenge my numbers or ask questions. If you go to dental school in fall of 2017 or later, you must be so passionate for it that literally nothing on earth would allow you to be happy, otherwise you're destroying the financial future of you and your family.

What's the whole point of this? Dissuading people to get into dentistry and lessen competition?

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

What's the whole point of this? Dissuading people to get into dentistry and lessen competition?

If that's what it was about, it's clearly not working. Those expensive schools still get more applicants than there are seats available.

I took this thread to be about sitting down with someone who can actually crunch numbers for you, before you set yourself into a life-altering decision. And due to inflation over time and increasing school costs since this thread was started, I'm sure those numbers are outdated.

 

[askadds]

If that's what it was about, it's clearly not working. Those expensive schools still get more applicants than there are seats available.

I took this thread to be about sitting down with someone who can actually crunch numbers for you, before you set yourself into a life-altering decision. And due to inflation over time and increasing school costs since this thread was started, I'm sure those numbers are outdated.

The numbers have gotten much worse since this was posted. Since the pandemic started, carriers have started to lower their reimbursement. So the fees have lowered but the cost of education has increase along with office overhead, around 7% in 2022.

 

[D1Bound]

The numbers have gotten much worse since this was posted. Since the pandemic started, carriers have started to lower their reimbursement. So the fees have lowered but the cost of education has increase along with office overhead, around 7% in 2022.

This isn’t sustainable