Going to Medical School in Germany with US bachelors degree

[Ion4]

Hey!

I'm planning on going to Germany for medical school next year.

For those of you who have gone to Germany with a US Bachelor's degree, were any of the classes you took in undergrad waived when you started medical school over there? Or did you have to take all the classes again (i.e. Organic Chemistry, Physics, etc.).

Thanks in advance!

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[somerhave]

Hi

I went to med school in Germany and was in a similar situation. I has lots of my courses waived (Bio, Physics, Chem, Biochem). Unfortunately I couldn't reduce my Mindeststudiumzeit (they didn't allow it) but it made the first year much easier.

I did the Vorklinik according to the old AAppO so I am not sure that it is still the same. I guess the new courses are more integrated which might make it more difficult. You should contact the Landespruefungsamt where you wish to study to get the details about the process. It can take a very long time so do this as early as possible. I think it took 6 months in my case.

This site might be helpful:

http://www.daad.de/ausland/tipps-vo...studien-und-pruefungsleistungen/00637.de.html

 

[med_heidelberg]

I did this as well (BS in biology and went to Germany for med school), graduated on time (6 years) and will be starting residency in July at my #1 choice. It was not an easy path but was well worth it. I am not German but learned it after spending a year there in college. I will start residency debt-free and was able to set up a lot of US clinical rotations that counted for the Famulatur and PJ. The training in Germany is excellent, but very difficult. At my school, the competition level was intense. When I started, there were two Americans in my year; both didn't make it. Another one a year above me did not, either. One had a mental breakdown, one just disappeared, and one failed 3x and was ex-matriculated. However, all of were American and not half-German; they all spoke German but I think the language and cultural barrier has a lot to do with the difficulty of medical school for foreign students. If you are a native speaker, that will be a big advantage.

There is no support network at German universities either in terms of counseling and advising; you are pretty much on your own. No one will try to help you if they notice a pattern of failing or problems in courses. If you fail 3x, they will kick you out so fast you don't know what hit you (this happened to the third guy I mentioned).

I was given credit for a lot of courses: chemistry, physics, biology, biochemisty, and genetics. The integrated curriculum made it more difficult to save time, though. I did complete the Vorklinik in 3 semesters, but then I would have had less than 5 weeks to study for the Physikum, so I waited until the next semester.

Depending on your school and LPA, you can either submit your US transcripts directly to the LPA to get course credit (this takes almost a year), or contact the professors for those subjects directly, set up a meeting, show your transcript, and ask them to give you credit. If they agree, they will write you an Aequivalenzbescheinigung for the course and you can submit these all at once to the LPA. Getting credit that way is a lot quicker. This applies to the LPA in Stuttgart so depending on your LPA, the rules might be different.

Hope this helps answer your questions. Let me know if you have any more. Which schools are you applying to? If I recall correctly, applications for foreign students are due this year in August and you receive your acceptance in September. Admission is highly competitive; at my school, less than 4% are accepted, so I would apply widely.

 

[med_heidelberg]

One more thing, choose your school wisely if you wish to return to the US. Heidelberg, Munich, Berlin, Freiburg, and Tuebingen are the best and most renowned. Also it is easy in Germany to find a "Tauschpartner" to switch universities, especially after the Physikum. However, in the US it looks very bad to do that if you do not have a valid, academic reason. Changing for "location" is not valid and will not bode well for residency interviews and selection. In the US people do not change schools, it rarely if ever happens and you will always have to explain yourself. Also for every US clinical rotation, your residency application, and medical license, you will have to get transcripts from both schools. Check out the places you get accepted to first before committing if time permits. Good luck!

 

[Ion4]

Thank you so much somerhave and med_heidelberg! You have really helped me out a lot!

I'm applying to start next spring semester (the application opens up in december but classes do not start until April 1st I believe). I'm planning on applying to Charite, Tuebingen, Muenchen and Freiberg (I'm open to others as well but I'm factoring in cost of living, etc).

I also asked the people at hochschulstart about sending in my transcripts and they told me to just send it directly to them and they would distribute it to the schools. Do you advise that I send it to them before I start the application since it takes that long?

The whole process is so different from US applications but I too, hope that it's well worth it

Thank you again!!

 

[Ion4]

And thank you again soooo much med_heidelberg for taking time in answering my question!! All the best of luck to you. I really appreciated it

 

[med_heidelberg]

No problem. if you apply for the spring semester, you won't be able to apply to as many universities, though. Some allow applications for both spring and fall, but fall is the semester during which most people start. I think HD only lets people apply for the fall. I honestly can't recall if I used Hochschulstart. I think I did, and I would set up the account with them pretty soon and send in your transcripts. i think they use those to calculate an equivalent "Abischnitt" which is used as part of the selection process. Or if you went to high school in Germany and did your Abi, I think they would use that as well.

Do you have to take the Medizinertest? I think they implemented that within the past few years but it may not apply to Auslaender (?) I really have no idea; I think that it isn't required but you can take it to give yourself extra "points" in the selection process.

In terms of cost of living, Munich and Freiburg are pretty expensive, as is Heidelberg. However, expensive is relative: you can get a dorm or decent studio for less than 500 Euro if you look hard. Housing in HD is difficult, but with persistence you can find something. Also you can apply to live in the dorms and usually people don't have trouble getting in, but the rooms are small and depending on what you are used to now, it can be quite a downgrade. Cost of living even with the euro-dollar exchange rate is much better than in the US. Groceries, drinks, eating out, cell phone, internet, etc is all cheaper. Some students make it on 650-700 Euro per month including housing. When i started there was no tuition but they changed it to 500/semester + 100/semester for student union fees. Tuition depends on which state you are studying in... some might still not have it.

When I did the applications I wrote a personal statement in German and tailored each one to the school. I read up on the schools on their websites and mentioned something specific. Not sure how much the app process has changed, but even if there is no PS required i don't think it hurts to have one.

 

[Ion4]

Thank you so much again! I went to high school and college here in the States but I emailed the schools and they told that hochschulstart would do the GPA conversion for me (so that is one less thing to do). So far, I've been putting my application together and getting all the paperwork done so when apps open, I can finally apply. It's such a shame but understandable that most schools do not allow enrollment in the spring. After reading what you wrote, I'm going to try my hardest to apply for this fall.

I actually had no idea about the Medizinertest but I did do my personal statement (it was originally written for med schools in the US so it's in english) but I'm going to translate it and tailor it to each school just in case. After considering the cost of medicine in the States, a change in scenery and not having to be in an ocean of debt is quite a weight off the shoulders

If you do not mind me asking one more question, when you enrolled in classes, do the professors tell you what books you are required to study or do you pretty much have to find your way and ask around what material is needed for the courses?

And again, many many thanks! I cannot tell you how much you have helped me!! All the best

 

[med_heidelberg]

You have enough time before the application deadline, which is July 15, I think , if you we applying to each Uni directly. I would definitely suggest trying to apply for the fall semester, that way you can apply to pretty much every Uni if you wanted. Since you are a German citizen, but did your Abi equivalent in the US, does that mean you apply through the ZVS? Since I am foreign, I applied to each Uni directly and don't know too much about the ZVS. Do you know the site medi-learn.de? It's the German equivalent of SDN, there is tons of info there as well.

When I applied, it was very last minute and the Unis received my app literally on the day of the deadline. I wouldn't suggest this if you can help it....the earlier the better. I got my first acceptance three weeks after they received my app and didn't really have much time to move to Germany and get situated. The insanity of it is worth getting in earlier and getting in for the fall semester.

Usually the Profs will tell you which books they recommend. Also upperclassmen, especially the those that help out in gross anatomy, can give tips and you'll find out pretty quickly which books are best. Oftentimes the library will have the books you want so if you don't want to buy a book for every course you can just check them out. Also, the key to success in German med school is studying with old exams, so make sure you make friends with a lot of people in order to gain access to them. They tend to circulate via email before the exams and you will definitely want to practice with them. As I mentioned there is little to no guidance from the administration so it is a sink or swim environment, but if you have good friends, you will be plugged into what's going on. You'll notice that people become extremely cliquey early on, Ike in th first week or two, so try to find your group and stick with them. It was amazing to me how quickly this happened and how cohesive the groups were for the entire 6 years.

Do you plan in returning to the states for residency or staying in Germany? It might be too early to make that decision, but I have been reading that after 2016 it will become progressively difficult to obtain a residency position in the US due to increased enrollment at US med schools. Staying in Germany is a very attractive option as well, though. Most specialties are accessible and not as competitive as in the US since the pay is more uniform and people tend to pursue their passions instead of trying to get into lucrative areas to pay down horrendous debts. The pay in Germany is not as good as in the States, but the hours and quality of life are vastly better, especially if you like outdoor activities. Most Germans want to stay, you won't see too many trying to get a US residency position. It does happen, though, and coming from a German school will help you tremendously if you do decide to apply because they have a great international reputation and excellent track record of doing well in US programs. Another good forum to check out is aerzteblatt.de.

 

[Ion4]

Thank you for the websites! I will definitely check it out.

 

[med_heidelberg]

Hi, since you have been in college for a few years, that should add some Wartesemester which will give you a better chance at gaining admission.

At the risk of giving unsolicited advice, I suggest you think long and hard about going to Germany if your goal is to return to the US. You'll be there a minimum of 6 years and will probably have time only once, max twice a year to fly home to the US. Sure you can take the USMLEs but the number of residency slots available to IMGs will be vastly smaller in 7 years than it is now. You will need top scores and excellent LORs from US attendings. The German curriculum is somewhat different than the US. It is extremely rigorous and depending on the school, can be quite theoretical. The curriculum is not geared towards the USMLE as it is in US schools, where basically the first two years are spent getting you ready for that exam. There is no USMLE prep in germany and you'll be on your own for that, in addition to setting up US clinical rotations yourself. Setting these up can be very difficult and expensive. Also you have to fit those rotations into the german framework with its numerous rules in order to get credit as a Famulatur or PJ Tertial. You will feel pulled apart by the two systems and this stretches you thin. Also you will have to spend several years of your time there doing exta work setting up the rotations and doing the USMLEs on top of the already difficult and time consuming german curricuum. Most people that come to the US dont accomplish this in parallel to the 6 year program....they have to take a year after finishing and do the exams. I feel very fortunate that I was able to set up so many rotations, take the USMLEs and was able to get good LORs and ultimately a residency in the 6 year timeframe.

I fear that in a few years this route will become exceedingly difficult. Right now it is difficult but still attainable. If your goal is to practice in the US, have your considered applying to US med schools? German schools might be even more competitive BUT you have to forge your own path in order to come home. I know several Germans with US citizenship who went to med school in Germany with the intent of getting a US residency and ended staying there to work because coming back to the US is associated with many obstacles.

If your primary goal is to work in the US, I would try to get into a US school, even if that is associated with considerable debt. It is by far the path of least resistance.

 

[Ion4]

Hi!
Yes, it is very true what you're saying and I'm going to take into consideration the whole process. I know for sure I do not want to attend medical school here just because once you graduate, you are not only in serious debt but you cannot realistically pay it back until after residency. With interest rates added on that..it's mind-boggling.

Thank you for all your insight!

 

[somerhave]

I agree with everything med_heidelberg said. I just wanted to second the warning that it is NOT easy to return to the US and it is going to be getting much more difficult. I did not intend to return but personal reasons made it necessary. I did get a residency here but I am not in a competitive specialty and I got very high USMLE scores. I am not sure I would have had a chance otherwise. If you want to return you need to be sure to do things right (USCE, great exam scores and high performance in Germany) and be flexible about your location and maybe even specialty.

I am not saying this to discourage you; I just want to make sure you understand the situation before making the leap. I was very naive about making the switch and lost a lot of time. That said, I loved studying and working in Germany. I will absolutely return in the future as soon as my situation allows!!

 

[Ion4]

Thank you so much somerhave! The idea of studying in Germany is great but after reading everything that has been posted about the transition, I'm going to take some time and decide if that is the best option. Even when I spoke with the department that deals with foreign doctors, they made the transition sound too easy but I value your personal experience because you have gone through it.

I am extremely grateful for your help. I hope I can eventually find the right path Again, many thanks and the best of luck to you!!

 

[Slechts1Leven]

How did you guys pay to go to german medcal school ????(Housing, food, etc..?)

 

[med_heidelberg]

Finances are indeed an issue. If you live simply like most German medical students, you can get by on about 700 Euro/month. This would include housing (around Euro 250), food, health insurance (around 60/month for students if you are on the government plan), food, etc. It is not a lavish lifestyle to say the least, but most students get by on very little.

I used savings and had to hit up my parents for money, all of which they expect to get paid back at some point. Many students take side jobs. If you are a non EU citizen and have a student visa, you can work 180 days out of the year, I believe. Getting a student job at the university is pretty easy.

In order to keep your visa current and stay in the country, you do have to show proof of your finances to the authorities. You have to show them your bank statements or submit a letter from someone (like your parents) saying they will financially support you to the tune of 650 Euro a month or so. Some students just have a friend or relative do this without actually intending to support them and take a side job. Working while in school may make it difficult to graduate in 6 years, though.

As an aside some states charge tuition around 500 Euro per semester. Not all do and I heard recently that some states that did charge it in the recent past are now not charging it anymore. You would need to talk to the schools directly to find that out. Even if you have to pay it, it is a fraction of what you would pay pretty much everywhere else. In addition, once you get accepted to study medicine (assuming you have a Vollstudienplatz, not a Teilstudienplatz), there is no "Concours" or what not as there is in France -- you are guaranteed your slot up till graduation as long as you pass all exams within 3 attempts.

So all in all, it is feasible to get by on very little in Germany, but over 6 years it does add up, especially if you fly to the US every year and do clinical electives (tuition/housing/travel money, etc). It ends up being a heck of a lot less than what US students have in debt, though. If you have accomodating parents and/or savings, you may even graduate with little or no debt and be able to have a higher quality of life in residency and beyond.

 

[Docwall]

Hey, I am currently looking at options for medical school here in Germany as well. I have read through this thread and have gained alot of information. I am curious to know what path you took Ion4 ? I am reading both answers saying it is easier to get in medical school in Germany as a certain percentage must be foreigners , as well as it is very difficult to get accepted, I am sure this is case specific. The same goes for going back to the US. I have read that now a US Medical test is offered in Frankfurt that is equivalent to that in the US allowing medical students from Germany to practice in the US. Any tips or advice from your recent experience would be much appreciated.

 

[Mahinda]

Hi,
Has anyone entered medical school in Germany succwssffully?

 

[Seydlitz]

I studied medicine in Germany but I can tell you that the education system there is worse than insane. Much to my surprise, the course exams were all based on a micro-memorization of every minute aspect of the labs, with no interest whatsoever in the general principles of the course! So instead of having to know, for example, the general principles of thermodynamics for the 'Experimentalphysik fuer Mediziner' course, all the students were expected to know were the details of the 10 lab experiments we had to do for the course. This came as a real shock to me as a student having earned a bachelor's degree in the U.S., so be prepared.