"good" applicants who got rejected the first time...

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bubbleyum

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hi.

has anybody had experiences with being rejected the first time when they did everything "right." like decent mcats & gpa, LORs, took the april mcat and applied early, volunteering, applied to a wide range of schools etc, but STILL didn't get many interviews and ultimately rejected.

what were the reasons for the rejection, if you found out later? since you thought you had all your bases covered.

am wondering because i think i may be in this situation...looking for a re-attack plan to formulate for next year's cycle. thanks!

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I was going to say that if you don't get in this year to contact the adcoms and ask why you weren't admitted, but you probably already know that. I was reading some of your past posts, and if you haven't been complete at most schools until September, then I think that you still have a decent shot at getting some interviews. Also, doesn't Drexel admit like half of the people it interviews? I know the turnover rate there is pretty high, so don't give up hope yet. Most of my friends who applied last year didn't get their first acceptance until spring.
 
silas2642 said:
I was going to say that if you don't get in this year to contact the adcoms and ask why you weren't admitted, but you probably already know that. I was reading some of your past posts, and if you haven't been complete at most schools until September, then I think that you still have a decent shot at getting some interviews. Also, doesn't Drexel admit like half of the people it interviews? I know the turnover rate there is pretty high, so don't give up hope yet. Most of my friends who applied last year didn't get their first acceptance until spring.

thanks silas.

i agree, i will contact adcoms for feedback when the time is right. but was just sitting here wondering what else i could have done for my application. i guess nobody has any stories to add here, i'll just have to wait to find out why when it's all over! *sigh*
 
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bubbleyum said:
thanks silas.

i agree, i will contact adcoms for feedback when the time is right. but was just sitting here wondering what else i could have done for my application. i guess nobody has any stories to add here, i'll just have to wait to find out why when it's all over! *sigh*

I consider myself as a person who covered all his based and is getting screwed. 3.54 overall, 3.4 science, and 3.8 in my biology major at a top school. 31 S MCAT. LOR's from a MD i See patients with for a year, my PI, and 3 teachers I knew really well. Research with publication, Research felowships, volunteer in OR/ER/ Children oncology, full time job as senior with autistic children, work in Rheum clinic with patients on WEd for a year, applied early, etc... oh well.
 
bubbleyum said:
hi.

has anybody had experiences with being rejected the first time when they did everything "right." like decent mcats & gpa, LORs, took the april mcat and applied early, volunteering, applied to a wide range of schools etc, but STILL didn't get many interviews and ultimately rejected.

what were the reasons for the rejection, if you found out later? since you thought you had all your bases covered.

am wondering because i think i may be in this situation...looking for a re-attack plan to formulate for next year's cycle. thanks!

how about your PS and essays? i recently realized that my PS is well written **** that conveys no passion, emotion, etc. i have decent stats and activities as well.
but as everyone says, there is still time. good luck
 
A PENN grad with a 3.9, 36 MCAT, first author on a research pub and second on another pub was waitlisted at my State Med School and accepted 2 weeks before the year started. What the hell? I couldn't understand it, but it happened. You need to have everything together and not miss a beat. 100-200 people are fighting for every spot.
 
hey,
just wanted to let you know, that in my experience there are a lot of people who did everything right but still did not get many interviews. I had great mcats, a respectable gpa, research experience, volunteer experience, extra curriculars, etc. The first time I applied i got rejected by all 12 schools I applied to and only one of them asked me for an interview. I graduated undergrad and moved to that state and started working at their school to improve my application. The funny thing is they told me the reason I didn't get in was because I am not from that state, and because I do not have "life experience." Apparently they want to see you go out in the world and work and come back and really realizd that this is what you want, rather than coming straight from undergrad.

Just to let you know, I have an interveiw scheduled at this school but have already had 2 interviews at other schools this year and have been accepted to one of them which I plan to attend.






bubbleyum said:
hi.

has anybody had experiences with being rejected the first time when they did everything "right." like decent mcats & gpa, LORs, took the april mcat and applied early, volunteering, applied to a wide range of schools etc, but STILL didn't get many interviews and ultimately rejected.

what were the reasons for the rejection, if you found out later? since you thought you had all your bases covered.

am wondering because i think i may be in this situation...looking for a re-attack plan to formulate for next year's cycle. thanks!
 
kermitt70 said:
hey,
just wanted to let you know, that in my experience there are a lot of people who did everything right but still did not get many interviews. I had great mcats, a respectable gpa, research experience, volunteer experience, extra curriculars, etc. The first time I applied i got rejected by all 12 schools I applied to and only one of them asked me for an interview. I graduated undergrad and moved to that state and started working at their school to improve my application. The funny thing is they told me the reason I didn't get in was because I am not from that state, and because I do not have "life experience." Apparently they want to see you go out in the world and work and come back and really realizd that this is what you want, rather than coming straight from undergrad.

Just to let you know, I have an interveiw scheduled at this school but have already had 2 interviews at other schools this year and have been accepted to one of them which I plan to attend.

hi kermitt, congrats on your acceptance. strange how schools rejected you based on life experience even though you had all the stats and volunteer work. there are plenty of other juniors and seniors in undergrad who get accepted. just show how you never know.

i don't think that should be my reason for rejections though, seeing as how i am thirty years old with almost 10 years of work experience. it may be that my application is just too mediocre when put in the pile of stellar applicants these days. we shall see if i have any further luck this cycle.

:luck:
 
I am not getting any love from any schools yet either. I have applied to 10 schools and I have received 4 rejections pre-interview. I know that it is becuase of my MCAT, 22R the 3rd time, (24P 1996, 20S 1997). The best thing to do it to contact the school and set up a meeting.

I spoke with my top choice and they told me that they like me and that they will hold my application if I agree to retake the MCAT in April. She then told me that if I can get a few more points in they will re-evaluate me when they get the scores. If there is a spot open then I may get it. If not, she advised me to apply for the next cycle and I should probably get in.

Here is a suggestion. In June, the National Society for Non-Traditional Premedical and medical students (Old Pre Meds) is having their annual convention in Washington D.C.. I went to it last year and boy am I glad that I did.

In addition to great information on getting into medical school, how to write a good personal statement, how to survive med school and residency, there were about 5 schools who had tables and were willing to talk to participants.

This would be a great opportunity to get some questions answered and even speak to some schools.

The url is www.oldpremeds.com
 
Another thing that might "get" some folks is just not applying to "enough" schools. So although everything is checked off you also have to maximize chances and apply broadly. Also, LOR's and PS are important and often we do not really know what was written in the LOR's. Some folks write excellent LOR others not so even though they may know you well...their writing skills are subpar. Good luck guys.
 
bubbleyum said:
hi.

has anybody had experiences with being rejected the first time when they did everything "right." like decent mcats & gpa, LORs, took the april mcat and applied early, volunteering, applied to a wide range of schools etc, but STILL didn't get many interviews and ultimately rejected.

what were the reasons for the rejection, if you found out later? since you thought you had all your bases covered.

am wondering because i think i may be in this situation...looking for a re-attack plan to formulate for next year's cycle. thanks!

Honestly, it's a massive crapshoot, in my experience. I've lost a whole lot of respect for the medical profession, especially when I apply and always have to check the "no" box when they ask if my parents are alumni. Legacies are fine and dandy for private schools, but that shouldn't even be brought up at a state school, in my opinion.
 
36S? 3rd attempt? damn, that's just too depressing.

you do realize that those stats would give you a free ride at pretty much any osteopathic school, right?
 
EvolutionKills said:
Hell Yes!! I've got a 36S, 3.4 GPA from a school with a hateful anti grade inflation policy and a good rep, several years' worth of volunteering at an ED and some considerable time tutoring troubled teens at an alt high school, three years' research experience, am first author of a published, peer-reviewed paper, good LORs, yadayada, and I'm on my third time through the application process, just got "competitive listed" at UW, my state school. I may have applied about a month later than some others, but that couldn't be helped.

I've been over and over my app, but I can't really find its fatal weakness. The last time I applied to UW, they told me at the exit interview that I was too "research oriented," which I guess means I don't fit with their focus on making PCPs, even though I want to be a PCP and told them so.

Honestly, it's a massive crapshoot, in my experience. I've lost a whole lot of respect for the medical profession, especially when I apply and always have to check the "no" box when they ask if my parents are alumni. Legacies are fine and dandy for private schools, but that shouldn't even be brought up at a state school, in my opinion.

Dude, are you getting interviews, though? And are you applying to all top 20's?
 
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silas2642 said:
Dude, are you getting interviews, though? And are you applying to all top 20's?

I've been getting interviews at UW (my state school), but nowhere else. My school is extremely research-oriented (there's some stat out there that 50-75% of bio majors get a Ph.D), so there's not the support for the M.D. route that some other places have, and I'll admit I'm kind of clueless about this process--I get the vague feeling that I should have sacrificed a goat or something at a crucial stage there, but missed it.

Ideas?
 
I'm on my second try with an MCAT in the 99th percentile. Had research and volunteer experience, only negative was my GPA. I tried to do everything the schools told me to do to improve and am waiting for the final decision from my state school as we speak. That was my only interview again this year.
 
I've talked to some advisors and here are some common mistakes that people usually don't think about:

1. applying to too many reach schools.

2. One poor section on the MCAT (meaning, 14 14 5)

3. Not fitting with the school's mission

4. Did not convey sincerity in the PS and/or Interview

5. Stumbled too much in the interview, cannot word thoughts fluently

6. Speech problems (use too many slangs, grammatical errors, weird pitchs and tones, etc.)

7. Too few clinical experiences, and/or too many "wrong" clinical experiences (meaning, only folded sheets at the hospital, no patient contact)

8. Had trouble answering why school X (due to lack of research on the school); unenthusiastic about the school, does not understand the programs offered.

9. Gives a different story than that in the PS.
 
EvolutionKills said:
I've been getting interviews at UW (my state school), but nowhere else. My school is extremely research-oriented (there's some stat out there that 50-75% of bio majors get a Ph.D), so there's not the support for the M.D. route that some other places have, and I'll admit I'm kind of clueless about this process--I get the vague feeling that I should have sacrificed a goat or something at a crucial stage there, but missed it.

Ideas?

I don't know about other applicants, but personally I think sacrificing a goat has been a big boost for me during this application cycle.

It would be kind of useful to see where else you applied. If they're all top 20 schools (UCSF, Harvard, Vandy, Cornell, Columbia, etc.) then that may be a large part of your problem. You have to remember that even mid-tier schools like Tufts and BU reject applicants with numbers like yours everyday... it's that much of a crapshoot. How was your ps? Did you convey your passion for medicine clearly or was it the same old "my aunt ellie got sick and then I realized through volunteering that medicine was a way of helping people and I really like science and want to be a doctor." Have people who know you well read your personal statement and have people who may not know you so well but who can offer constructive criticism.

The other thing that may be a really big boost to your application is shadowing a doctor and then getting him/her to write you a letter of recommendation. I may be wrong, but I am a strong believer that if you can get a member of the medical community to say that you will be a good doctor then that is a huge plus on your application.

Is there anything about your application that may raise a flag? Did your parents push you into medicine? Are you in it for the wrong reasons? Do you have a downward trend in your gpa?

If this is really what you want to do and you don't get in this year, I would seriously consider applying to some mid to lower tier schools next year-- aim for Drexel, Loyola, AECOM, NYMC, Tufts, Albany, etc.
 
Definitely some good advice, Silas and Happydays, all of which fits well with what I've heard or guessed.

I definitely overreached my first time, and applied to only top schools. Last year and this year I tried to branch out a bit--I applied to UW, NYU, Cornell, BU, SLU, Albany, Drexel and Creighton. Was going to apply to Northwestern, OHSU, Case Western, and Wash U, but realized that all were a stretch for various reasons.

While I haven't shadowed a doc specifically, my ED volunteering has allowed me to go to Trauma and Mortality/Morbidity conferences weekly. Nobody to write me a rec, but hopefully I'll at least come off as a little better informed. My volunteering experience has involved direct patient contact (interviewing patients), though it could come across as too "researchy," I suppose.

My parents didn't push for medicine (they're social workers), and that's never been raised as a concern in any of my interviews, though their not being doctors does mean I'm not a legacy of any kind. As far as my PS goes, nobody I've shopped it around to has really had any problems with it--I've got particular, and I think dramatic, experiences to draw on, and I write pretty fluently. It may have missed the precise tone needed, but I showed it to a former AAMC president, and he never raised that as a concern.

My MCAT was pretty well rounded--VR13, PS12, BS11.

I didn't do especially well the first two interviews I did at UW (I'm sure I came off as a little immature and nervous), but I did pretty well at this last one--then got waitlisted. Nobody else has given me the time of day. Anyway, that's my story. Sorry if it comes off as a gripe.

So, how exactly was this goat sacrifice performed? It's either that, or I'll have to retake the MCATs to be able to apply a 4th time.
 
I had a similar experience:

3.91 Post-bac GPA, a 3.77 BCPM, a 31 R (10/11/10)
Graduated Phi Beta Kappa. Traveled extensively, bilingual. Lived in Mexico and shadowed a doctor there (wow what a trip).
Research in biodefense, with an LOR from the Director of the Dept, 6 years as an EMT, 6 years volunteering in a clinic, 7 years working outdoors, part of a national sports team, grand canyon guide, calculus tutor, teaching assistant.
My LORs were from 4 profs, 1 volunteer coordinator and the researcher.
Last year, I applied to all UCs, Tulane, CHSU, UVM, UVA, Harv, Stanf, Hopkins, and a few other places (not so high tiered). All in all, 15 schools.
Had 1 interview: UVA, when I was so incredibly sick it was amazing I could pull myself out of bed that morning. I was waitlisted. And heard nothing.

This year, I went smaller, but I have an interview at Tulane, and I just called and I know Davis is reviewing my file. And I applied late this year, but I'm still keeping my fingers crossed. One thing I changed- I started working *in* a clinic with a doctor, doing Primary Care instead of outdoor trauma, but I wrote my PS on how a love of the outdoors and medicine are not mutually exclusive. The doctor at our clinic just wrote me a rec. She is currently my hero.

It's a frustrating process, and yes, I believe it's kind of a crapshoot as well. Sigh. We'll see. Keeping my fingers crossed for all of us. A goat you say? that reminds me of an Adam Sandler skit (those of you who know.. "A football?!")
:luck:
 
nikibean said:
I had a similar experience:

3.91 Post-bac GPA, a 3.77 BCPM, a 31 R (10/11/10)
Graduated Phi Beta Kappa. Traveled extensively, bilingual. Lived in Mexico and shadowed a doctor there (wow what a trip).
Research in biodefense, with an LOR from the Director of the Dept, 6 years as an EMT, 6 years volunteering in a clinic, 7 years working outdoors, part of a national sports team, grand canyon guide, calculus tutor, teaching assistant.
My LORs were from 4 profs, 1 volunteer coordinator and the researcher.
Last year, I applied to all UCs, Tulane, CHSU, UVM, UVA, Harv, Stanf, Hopkins, and a few other places (not so high tiered). All in all, 15 schools.
Had 1 interview: UVA, when I was so incredibly sick it was amazing I could pull myself out of bed that morning. I was waitlisted. And heard nothing.

This year, I went smaller, but I have an interview at Tulane, and I just called and I know Davis is reviewing my file. And I applied late this year, but I'm still keeping my fingers crossed. One thing I changed- I started working *in* a clinic with a doctor, doing Primary Care instead of outdoor trauma, but I wrote my PS on how a love of the outdoors and medicine are not mutually exclusive. The doctor at our clinic just wrote me a rec. She is currently my hero.

It's a frustrating process, and yes, I believe it's kind of a crapshoot as well. Sigh. We'll see. Keeping my fingers crossed for all of us. A goat you say? that reminds me of an Adam Sandler skit (those of you who know.. "A football?!")
:luck:

Wow, Nikibean, that's some resume. I've also been surprised that non-clinical/wilderness medicine experience doesn't seem to be especially impressive to adcoms--my WFR experiences have been quickly and deftly glossed over when I've brought them up as having been formative. One might think that your having been working on your own with no support would be better than working in a clinic with a doc, and that your guide experience shows leadership qualities, but I doubt that'll be the response you get, frankly.

Anyway, good luck--maybe I'll see you on a river somewheres.
 
10. Too many short (thus insignificant) experiences. You should only list something on the AMCAS if you've done it for at least a year, shown dedication, and can say how it helped you form your decision to go into medicine. Shorter but incredibly significant activities (shadowing, research, etc.) can be listed, but don't fill the AMCAS with clutter (like an award that 75% of the people at your school gets).

11. Age matters when someone is ~38+. Then the adcom start to question if this is a mid-life crises or not, since by the time you start to practice, you'll be almost 50.
 
nikibean said:
I had a similar experience:

3.91 Post-bac GPA, a 3.77 BCPM, a 31 R (10/11/10)
Graduated Phi Beta Kappa. Traveled extensively, bilingual. Lived in Mexico and shadowed a doctor there (wow what a trip).
Research in biodefense, with an LOR from the Director of the Dept, 6 years as an EMT, 6 years volunteering in a clinic, 7 years working outdoors, part of a national sports team, grand canyon guide, calculus tutor, teaching assistant.
My LORs were from 4 profs, 1 volunteer coordinator and the researcher.
Last year, I applied to all UCs, Tulane, CHSU, UVM, UVA, Harv, Stanf, Hopkins, and a few other places (not so high tiered). All in all, 15 schools.
Had 1 interview: UVA, when I was so incredibly sick it was amazing I could pull myself out of bed that morning. I was waitlisted. And heard nothing.

This year, I went smaller, but I have an interview at Tulane, and I just called and I know Davis is reviewing my file. And I applied late this year, but I'm still keeping my fingers crossed. One thing I changed- I started working *in* a clinic with a doctor, doing Primary Care instead of outdoor trauma, but I wrote my PS on how a love of the outdoors and medicine are not mutually exclusive. The doctor at our clinic just wrote me a rec. She is currently my hero.

It's a frustrating process, and yes, I believe it's kind of a crapshoot as well. Sigh. We'll see. Keeping my fingers crossed for all of us. A goat you say? that reminds me of an Adam Sandler skit (those of you who know.. "A football?!")
:luck:
If you want to get into ANY med school, I think Wayne State will just take you if you have a science GPA of 3.6 and 10's across the board. Talk to the admissions committee about their early decision program. I've heard that if you meet their min requirement, they'll make room for you in their class, but you'll need to call them to be sure.

Then again, most people don't want to apply to "bottom 50" med schools and end up going through the application cycle a couple of times. Whatever you want to do.
 
happydays said:
If you want to get into ANY med school, I think Wayne State will just take you if you have a science GPA of 3.6 and 10's across the board. Talk to the admissions committee about their early decision program. I've heard that if you meet their min requirement, they'll make room for you in their class, but you'll need to call them to be sure.

Then again, most people don't want to apply to "bottom 50" med schools and end up going through the application cycle a couple of times. Whatever you want to do.

Hey I dunno about WSU man, I'm still deferred with a 3.96/34! I think your comment only works for Michigan in-state. Not that I care though, I already got into a better school this cycle.

I think I didn't get in last cycle because I didn't appy to enough "bottom 50" schools, and for those that I did, I took too long on the secondaries. My ECs weren't very impressive or clinically related. Also I was inexperienced in writing these application essays and doing interviews. Saying you want to go into medicine primarily for the intellectual fulfillment and the challenge is the kiss of death! The standard retort is "then why don't you go to grad school?"
 
Messerschmitts said:
Hey I dunno about WSU man, I'm still deferred with a 3.96/34! I think your comment only works for Michigan in-state. Not that I care though, I already got into a better school this cycle.

I think I didn't get in last cycle because I didn't appy to enough "bottom 50" schools, and for those that I did, I took too long on the secondaries. My ECs were very impressive or clinically related. Also I was inexperienced in writing these application essays and doing interviews. Saying you want to go into medicine primarily for the intellectual fulfillment and the challenge is the kiss of death! The standard retort is "then why don't you go to grad school?"
At WSU, it only works with EARLY DECISION students. If you're not edp, that rule does not apply. You'll also have to make the case that Wayne is the place for you.
 
Proves that it is NOT all about the numbers. You can still have all your "bases covered" and not be competative because you are deficient in some social aspect. That is why there is an interview.
 
Sundarban1 said:
Proves that it is NOT all about the numbers. You can still have all your "bases covered" and not be competative because you are deficient in some social aspect. That is why there is an interview.

Yeah, that's true, and I won't waste anyone's time trying to convince you that I'm not socially incompetent. I would point out that it doesn't account for not getting interviews anywhere other than my state school. Knowing that this has happened to other candidates makes me think that the 'crapshoot thesis' is correct.
 
Steiner said:
I'm on my second try with an MCAT in the 99th percentile. Had research and volunteer experience, only negative was my GPA. I tried to do everything the schools told me to do to improve and am waiting for the final decision from my state school as we speak. That was my only interview again this year.


i think this is my problem. no love at all this round. great mcat, excellent "ec's" and LOR's, good PS. but my 10-year old undergrad grades sucked. i thought my grad degree with great grades and great mcat would make up for it, but it don't think it is, since i have yet to get and interview and have been rejected from 11 of 20 schools already.

what did they tell you to do about the GPA? i'm thinking of cramming in some re-takes of orgo and b-chem at the local state-U between now and august, and re-applying this summer... anything else they suggest? is that even the right thing?
 
noonday said:
i think this is my problem. no love at all this round. great mcat, excellent "ec's" and LOR's, good PS. but my 10-year old undergrad grades sucked. i thought my grad degree with great grades and great mcat would make up for it, but it don't think it is, since i have yet to get and interview and have been rejected from 11 of 20 schools already.

what did they tell you to do about the GPA? i'm thinking of cramming in some re-takes of orgo and b-chem at the local state-U between now and august, and re-applying this summer... anything else they suggest? is that even the right thing?
I would at least retake all those pre-req classes that you didn't do so hot in the first time around. DO NOT take those classes at an "easy" school, meaning no 2-year colleges or CC's. Take them at a school that's on the caliber of your home school, better would be taking them at your home school.
 
noonday said:
i think this is my problem. no love at all this round. great mcat, excellent "ec's" and LOR's, good PS. but my 10-year old undergrad grades sucked. i thought my grad degree with great grades and great mcat would make up for it, but it don't think it is, since i have yet to get and interview and have been rejected from 11 of 20 schools already.

what did they tell you to do about the GPA? i'm thinking of cramming in some re-takes of orgo and b-chem at the local state-U between now and august, and re-applying this summer... anything else they suggest? is that even the right thing?


Thats what I did. Retook O-Chem and enrolled in every upper division biology class available. I have 2 interviews this time and one is at a pretty good school. I also called the schools that rejected me last time and asked what I could do to improve.
 
happydays said:
3. Not fitting with the school's mission

4. Did not convey sincerity in the PS and/or Interview

I'm always amazed that this is even legitimate criteria for selection. I remember calling a school once, asking what was lacking with my application, why I fared the way I did, etc. Response had everything to do with not showing enough "passion" at the interview, and other entirely subjective factors -- had nothing to do with my good grades/MCAT scores.

Biggest "mistake" I had made was limitting my applications geographically. So I only had a "fighting chance" at 5-6 schools. My advice is to break the georgraphic shackles and apply everywhere you can within reason. An undesirable location is better than nothing.
 
happydays said:
11. Age matters when someone is ~38+.

So, even though I've shown dedication and commitment (been volunteering in health care for 14 years and working for 9) that AdComms won't accept a 45 year old? My decision to enter medicine started long before midlife; I just didn't have the resources nor the self-confidence to pursue med school ... until now.

happydays said:
11.Then the adcom start to question if this is a mid-life crises or not, since by the time you start to practice, you'll be almost 50.

I'll certainly be over 50 when I start to practice, for I want to do an MD/PhD. Others have followed their dreams, and so will I.
 
eccles1214 said:
So, even though I've shown dedication and commitment (been volunteering in health care for 14 years and working for 9) that AdComms won't accept a 45 year old? My decision to enter medicine started long before midlife; I just didn't have the resources nor the self-confidence to pursue med school ... until now.



I'll certainly be over 50 when I start to practice, for I want to do an MD/PhD. Others have followed their dreams, and so will I.
I'm not saying that you can't do it, but your age will be an issue. You have to work extra hard to convince them why they should grant you the position when you'll only have <20 yrs of work left when they could give it to someone who will have ~40 yrs to contribute in the field.
 
happydays said:
I'm not saying that you can't do it, but your age will be an issue. You have to work extra hard to convince them why they should grant you the position when you'll only have <20 yrs of work left when they could give it to someone who will have ~40 yrs to contribute in the field.

Thanks for your response. Sorry if I sounded angry; rather, I'm frustrated that my record is not able to speak for itself. As far as "<20 yrs of work left," this assumes that I will be retiring or leaving the profession when I'm in my seventies, but why quit so early?
 
happydays said:
I'm not saying that you can't do it, but your age will be an issue. You have to work extra hard to convince them why they should grant you the position when you'll only have <20 yrs of work left when they could give it to someone who will have ~40 yrs to contribute in the field.

True, but I've already "contributed" years to healthcare, more than 14,000 volunteer hours of direct patient care (half-time; I did paid administrative work in the daytime these non-profit free clinics the rest of the time ). I just was not a doctor when I did it; now I want to be a physician.

Does this not count for anything?
 
eccles, I've had some difficulty being a mediocre applicant but being 38yo. I've found DO schools more receptive of older non-trads with great experience but otherwise average stats. MD schools I've applied to have interviews younger applicants with similar stats to mine (or even worse stats), but rejected me. I, too, have 15 years of medical experience as a paramedic. Try DO schools.
 
Actually, at a recent MD interview, they told us that the 2005 incoming class had a 51 year old student. It's never impossible, but difficult, I'm sure.
 
bubbleyum said:
hi.

has anybody had experiences with being rejected the first time when they did everything "right." like decent mcats & gpa, LORs, took the april mcat and applied early, volunteering, applied to a wide range of schools etc, but STILL didn't get many interviews and ultimately rejected.

what were the reasons for the rejection, if you found out later? since you thought you had all your bases covered.

am wondering because i think i may be in this situation...looking for a re-attack plan to formulate for next year's cycle. thanks!

Hey bubbleyum

My situation was pretty much the same last year as yours is this year. I had a 3.5 gpa (3.4 science), 33Q mcat (11 each section) and plenty of volunteering and research experience. I had gotten interviews at Univeristy of Colorado and Tulane, and was waitlisted at both. When I talked with the associate deans, they basically said there was nothing wrong with my application and that I just needed more experience (translation: interview didn't go so well). Since I never got off the waitlists, I took a couple months off, went on vacation, found a job working with people and reapplied. Four interviews later, I just got my Creighton acceptance today.

Bottom line is, don't give up, and looking for a real job gives you lots of chances to polish those interview skills. 😍
 
Ralantha said:
Hey bubbleyum

My situation was pretty much the same last year as yours is this year. I had a 3.5 gpa (3.4 science), 33Q mcat (11 each section) and plenty of volunteering and research experience. I had gotten interviews at Univeristy of Colorado and Tulane, and was waitlisted at both. When I talked with the associate deans, they basically said there was nothing wrong with my application and that I just needed more experience (translation: interview didn't go so well). Since I never got off the waitlists, I took a couple months off, went on vacation, found a job working with people and reapplied. Four interviews later, I just got my Creighton acceptance today.

Bottom line is, don't give up, and looking for a real job gives you lots of chances to polish those interview skills. 😍


thanks ralantha, for your encouragement. your mcat score was pretty good, and if interviewing was a problem for you, did you ever wonder why you only got 2 interviews? did you only apply to a few schools that were top-tier? why would schools nix you pre-interview in the first place? sometimes it's just hard to figure out the "rules" of this game...

as for myself, i am actually a 30-yr old non-tranditional. i currently have been working in a "real world" job (9 years) and have been very active in church and other social organizations. so i don't think that's my problem. right now i am labeling my problem as just being too "average/ordinary." i guess i'll wait it out until the end of this cycle and see what i can do for next year. i think i still have some hope, though maybe not much.
 
bubbleyum said:
thanks ralantha, for your encouragement. your mcat score was pretty good, and if interviewing was a problem for you, did you ever wonder why you only got 2 interviews? did you only apply to a few schools that were top-tier? why would schools nix you pre-interview in the first place? sometimes it's just hard to figure out the "rules" of this game...

as for myself, i am actually a 30-yr old non-tranditional. i currently have been working in a "real world" job (9 years) and have been very active in church and other social organizations. so i don't think that's my problem. right now i am labeling my problem as just being too "average/ordinary." i guess i'll wait it out until the end of this cycle and see what i can do for next year. i think i still have some hope, though maybe not much.

I think that I was a little overambitious as far as school selection. I appled to Wash U, U Mich, Northwestern, Emory. etc...and there was a minor problem with a letter of rec for Creighton. For some reason, they didn't get my non-science letter when everyone else did, and I didn't find that out til February. After last year, I decided even though some schools say their ave. gpa is 3.6, they don't really accept a lot of people with a 3.6. I think it means they let in lots of people with high gpas, and a couple exceptional people with lower stats that makes the average 3.6.
 
beastmaster said:
I'm always amazed that this is even legitimate criteria for selection. I remember calling a school once, asking what was lacking with my application, why I fared the way I did, etc. Response had everything to do with not showing enough "passion" at the interview, and other entirely subjective factors -- had nothing to do with my good grades/MCAT scores.
I ran into the same problem last year. What does this mean? In my case, the ADCOM felt that I didn't have the passion to be a MD, and would be better served by a PhD. I felt this additude was arrogant and patronizing.

How did I fix this? I did a mock interview with a doc friend of mine. He told me nearly the same thing the ADCOM did: I didn't show the passion. The difference is not in dedication, but in interview skills, which can be improved. So I got a set of questions and practiced in front of the mirror for an hour every night or so before the interview. I did another mock interview and taped it so I could review it. In the end, I didn't have pat answers, but I knew the most important concepts I wanted to tell my questioner, using my application essays to tell an exciting story that linked my experiences to these concepts.

Most people are impressed by a show that dazzles, not a substantial logical chain of thought (except engineers like me), and I had to fight against my training to do this. You only have 30 minutes to make those ADCOMers go "wow," and the only way to do that is practice.
 
RxnMan said:
I ran into the same problem last year. What does this mean? In my case, the ADCOM felt that I didn't have the passion to be a MD, and would be better served by a PhD. I felt this additude was arrogant and patronizing.

How did I fix this? I did a mock interview with a doc friend of mine. He told me nearly the same thing the ADCOM did: I didn't show the passion. The difference is not in dedication, but in interview skills, which can be improved. So I got a set of questions and practiced in front of the mirror for an hour every night or so before the interview. I did another mock interview and taped it so I could review it. In the end, I didn't have pat answers, but I knew the most important concepts I wanted to tell my questioner, using my application essays to tell an exciting story that linked my experiences to these concepts.

Most people are impressed by a show that dazzles, not a substantial logical chain of thought (except engineers like me), and I had to fight against my training to do this. You only have 30 minutes to make those ADCOMers go "wow," and the only way to do that is practice.
So much for just being yourself...... 🙂 Seriously, though, I hope you get in.
 
Hey all you reapplicants:

I feel your pain, but at the same time I'm somewhat relieved that I'm not the only one who's experienced a sense of injustice after the first application cycle. Whomever outlined a list of common mistakes applicants make is completely on point. Below I've weighed in with what I've done to address my mistakes (outside of bad grades) and what I think people should do if possible regarding those same issues.

I applied for 2005 and interviewed at two schools out of 20 to which I had completed applications, Vanderbilt (in August '04) and SUNY Upstate (in March '05). I had gotten waitlisted at the former and rejected from all others.

Granted, I had a lot of strikes going against me. Undergrad GPA from Princeton (Economics) was 2.89, GPA from Brooklyn Law School was an abysmal 2.31 (it's considered grad school, but still, no ADCOM wants to see a 2.31 of anything). I had a 30S on the April '04 MCAT (11 BS, 11 PS, 08 VR), and I believe the Verbal score was a big liability. Despite a 30R on the August '98 MCAT (09 BS, 11 PS, 10 VR), the score was expired and thus earlier proof that I could do Verbal couldn't count. Also, my father and brother are both surgeons, and for someone with my particular ethnic background (an Indian whose last name's synonymous with convenience stores and physicians), that potentially makes me a sketchy applicant, since schools can easily question my motive for applying (family pressure or genuine, rekindled interest?). I was told as much when I applied to NYMC for grad school a few years back (despite that they accepted me, weird), so I have basis for saying this.

What made me a "good" applicant? Sixteen years as a serious classical cellist, my Princeton degree, my law degree, having passed the New York Bar Exam (July '03) and gotten admittance to the New York Bar (May '04), and a solid 3.78 GPA from an NYU Master of Biology program. As far as clinically relevant ECs go, I was in good shape - hundreds of hours of ER and OR volunteering, EMT certification, shadowing, office work, active in college health advising, etc. Unfortunately, that 1 1/2 yrs at NYU did nothing toward my undergrad GPA, so ironically my M.S. can be a weakness too, especially since at the time I had no research experience.

I did not contact schools after receiving rejections, but I did look critically at my candidacy and strategized ways to mitigate bad numbers and anything else lacking from my CV.

This is what I'm doing, along with what I recommend for those that still have certain applicant variables within their power to effect/change:

(1) Retaking the MCAT this April '06.
On the surface this sounds "bad," since I'm taking the test a third time, but I'm figuring since they technically are ignoring my 1998 score, they should perceive this upcoming test as my second attempt that counts. There are hundreds that would disagree with me, but take the MCAT in April only, unless you're taking the MCAT in August the year before you file apps (e.g., summer after sophomore year).
A colleague at my lab has a 37 MCAT and 4.0 post-bacc, but he took his MCAT in August of his application year. It was a fair strategy, since the alternative (April '05) meant studying for the test while taking three premed science courses (with lab). And he's gotten 7 interviews out of 25-28 applications. That still doesn't change the fact that he put himself at a serious disadvantage - out of the 7 are 3 waitlists. Heck, I got an August interview at a top school and got waitlisted. Imagine how many med school classes fill up by the time you even get that August score back. If it means having to putz around another year doing something else (research, paramedic, teach, coma), do it. As for people's hangups about age, if you're old, you're old. Don't listen to 22-yr-old kids citing statistics about schools not liking older applicants. These same schools are beginning to see 21 and 22 as hallmarks of naivete - even considering the age outliers, the fact that the average matriculant age is 24 or so means they value some "objective" measure of maturity. If you're 50 and applying, you have my congratulations - my dad's a 55-yr-old surgeon taking the California Bar this month, so don't listen to naysayers.
Do it once, and don't get less than 10 BS/10 PS/10 VR on the very first try. The essay score's useless (I know, I had an R and an S my first two tries), just don't get below, say, a P. If you have to retake, look at it as "I have to improve so that my AVERAGE score (among scores that "count") is 10/10/10. I know Cornell in particular doesn't care if you have 15/15/15 or 10/10/10, as long as you're double-digits in all three. A pretty lame Indian kid I knew at NYU (at NYU, undergrad Indian premeds are clones) got 10/10/10 and also got 20 interviews out of 30 applications - 3.6 GPA and otherwise a tool.

(2) Doing (clinical) research for two years.
Most people do the lag year thing, which is fine. Definitely do research. People talk of humanism in medicine, and folks certainly get in without any research. But as long as you're doing other ECs like volunteering, shadowing, tutoring, etc., research cannot hurt you. If you volunteered 10 yrs ago and have since done 7 yrs of research, think about putting in one night a week in the ER. Or get EMT-certified and work for a volly (volunteer ambulance company). If you plan to do research for at least one year, get published, just get your name on a paper. Again, it's not critical, but having it is one of those checklist things they have that keeps you in the later Medical Idol competition rounds.

(3) Applying to more schools, applying to less selective schools.
I applied to 20 initially because my alma mater had a ceiling of 20. I asked if this could be changed, especially since the proponent for the policy left the premed office, but they stood firm. Even this time around, I had to fight over e-mail and over the phone last summer to convince them that applying to 30 (or even 40) would have gotten me at least one more interview.
I did apply to far too many top-tier schools (my brother, who advised me on my first application strategy, is a Duke surgery resident and he definitely biased my chances of getting into a top place after Vandy had granted me such an early interview). I'm using NYU this time for my Committee letter, particularly b/c my M.S. came recently in January '05, my grades are better there, and they have no limit on the number of schools.
One critical mistake is to apply to any state school outside of your state of residence. I did not do this, with one exception (my Princeton premed advisor was a former ADCOM member at UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson) - this time I'm not bothering to waste my money on a non-New York state school unless they take a significant (30+%) of applicants from out-of-state and their admission stats aren't ridiculously high. Folks often apply naively to a lot of Cali or Florida (or Texas) schools not stopping to realize they have a statistically 0% chance of getting in.

I know I wrote a lot, but it all boils down to: don't mess up. If you do mess up, you have to spend 2 years for every year that you were lackluster in ANY one area (grades, MCAT research, volunteering, not being a tool, etc.). One last thing - have a life, too. I interview well, b/c I can strike up conversation about pretty much anything. There are some 3.9 GPA/37 MCAT folks that get completely hosed during the apps season b/c they're mentally backward when it comes to common social things like conversing. Take some time once a week to go out and be normal like 99.99999% of the population. Then spend the rest of the week being utterly outstanding. Schools every once and a while will give you a shot if your numbers are not up to snuff, if they think for coolness' sake (i.e., diversity) they need to talk with you face-to-face...but the odds of that are statistically 0 in my opinion (1/10,000 apps is not a stat worth banking on is what I'm saying).

Respond privately if you like - I won't be checking this thread again.
 
Hey all you reapplicants:

[Keep in mind I write this under several assumptions: (1) you're applying for American allopathic schools only, (2) you are not an underrepresented minority, (3) any application weaknesses are your own fault (e.g., bad grades not because you nearly died in an accident or had to take a leave of absence).]

I feel your pain, but at the same time I'm somewhat relieved that I'm not the only one who's experienced a sense of injustice after the first application cycle. Whomever outlined a list of common mistakes applicants make is completely on point. Below I've weighed in with what I've done to address my mistakes (outside of bad grades) and what I think people should do if possible regarding those same issues.

I applied for 2005 and interviewed at two schools out of 20 to which I had completed applications, Vanderbilt (in August '04) and SUNY Upstate (in March '05). I had gotten waitlisted at the former and rejected from all others.

Granted, I had a lot of strikes going against me. Undergrad GPA from Princeton (Economics) was 2.89, GPA from Brooklyn Law School was an abysmal 2.31 (it's considered grad school, but still, no ADCOM wants to see a 2.31 of anything). I had a 30S on the April '04 MCAT (11 BS, 11 PS, 08 VR), and I believe the Verbal score was a big liability. Despite a 30R on the August '98 MCAT (09 BS, 11 PS, 10 VR), the score was expired and thus earlier proof that I could do Verbal couldn't count. Also, my father and brother are both surgeons, and for someone with my particular ethnic background (an Indian whose last name's synonymous with convenience stores and physicians), that potentially makes me a sketchy applicant, since schools can easily question my motive for applying (family pressure or genuine, rekindled interest?). I was told as much when I applied to NYMC for grad school a few years back (despite that they accepted me, weird), so I have basis for saying this.

What made me a "good" applicant? Sixteen years as a serious classical cellist, my Princeton degree, my law degree, having passed the New York Bar Exam (July '03) and gotten admittance to the New York Bar (May '04), and a solid 3.78 GPA from an NYU Master of Biology program. As far as clinically relevant ECs go, I was in good shape - hundreds of hours of ER and OR volunteering, EMT certification, shadowing, office work, active in college health advising, etc. Unfortunately, that 1 1/2 yrs at NYU did nothing toward my undergrad GPA, so ironically my M.S. can be a weakness too, especially since at the time I had no research experience.

I did not contact schools after receiving rejections, but I did look critically at my candidacy and strategized ways to mitigate bad numbers and anything else lacking from my CV.

This is what I'm doing, along with what I recommend for those that still have certain applicant variables within their power to effect/change:

(1) Retaking the MCAT this April '06.
On the surface this sounds "bad," since I'm taking the test a third time, but I'm figuring since they technically are ignoring my 1998 score, they should perceive this upcoming test as my second attempt that counts. There are hundreds that would disagree with me, but take the MCAT in April only, unless you're taking the MCAT in August the year before you file apps (e.g., summer after sophomore year).
A colleague at my lab has a 37 MCAT and 4.0 post-bacc, but he took his MCAT in August of his application year. It was a fair strategy, since the alternative (April '05) meant studying for the test while taking three premed science courses (with lab). And he's gotten 7 interviews out of 25-28 applications. That still doesn't change the fact that he put himself at a serious disadvantage - out of the 7 are 3 waitlists. Heck, I got an August interview at a top school and got waitlisted. Imagine how many med school classes fill up by the time you even get that August score back. If it means having to putz around another year doing something else (research, paramedic, teach, coma), do it. As for people's hangups about age, if you're old, you're old. Don't listen to 22-yr-old kids citing statistics about schools not liking older applicants. These same schools are beginning to see 21 and 22 as hallmarks of naivete - even considering the age outliers, the fact that the average matriculant age is 24 or so means they value some "objective" measure of maturity. If you're 50 and applying, you have my congratulations - my dad's a 55-yr-old surgeon taking the California Bar this month, so don't listen to naysayers.
Do it once, and don't get less than 10 BS/10 PS/10 VR on the very first try. The essay score's useless (I know, I had an R and an S my first two tries), just don't get below, say, a P. If you have to retake, look at it as "I have to improve so that my AVERAGE score (among scores that "count") is 10/10/10. I know Cornell in particular doesn't care if you have 15/15/15 or 10/10/10, as long as you're double-digits in all three. A pretty lame Indian kid I knew at NYU (at NYU, undergrad Indian premeds are clones) got 10/10/10 and also got 20 interviews out of 30 applications - 3.6 GPA, lag year of research, and otherwise a tool.

(2) Doing (clinical) research for two years for a famous and heavily cited researcher.
Most people do the lag year thing, which is fine. Definitely do research. People talk of humanism in medicine, and folks certainly get in without any research. [I was totally anti-research until I started my current job.] But as long as you're doing other ECs like volunteering, shadowing, tutoring, etc., research cannot hurt you. If you volunteered 10 yrs ago and have since done 7 yrs of research, think about putting in one night a week in the ER. Or get EMT-certified and work for a volly (volunteer ambulance company). If you plan to do research for at least one year, get published, just get your name on a paper. Again, it's not critical, but having it is one of those checklist things they have that keeps you in the later Medical Idol competition rounds.

(3) Applying to more schools, applying to less selective schools.
I applied to 20 initially because my alma mater had a ceiling of 20. I asked if this could be changed, especially since the proponent for the policy left the premed office, but they stood firm. Even this time around, I had to fight over e-mail and over the phone last summer to convince them that applying to 30 (or even 40) would have gotten me at least one more interview.
I did apply to far too many top-tier schools (my brother, who advised me on my first application strategy, is a Duke surgery resident and he definitely biased my chances of getting into a top place after Vandy had granted me such an early interview). I'm using NYU this time for my Committee letter, particularly b/c my M.S. came recently in January '05, my grades are better there, and they have no limit on the number of schools.
One critical mistake is to apply to any state school outside of your state of residence. I did not do this, with one exception (my Princeton premed advisor was a former ADCOM member at UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson) - this time I'm not bothering to waste my money on a non-New York state school unless they take a significant (30+%) of applicants from out-of-state and their admission stats aren't ridiculously high. Folks often apply naively to a lot of Cali or Florida (or Texas) schools not stopping to realize they have a statistically 0% chance of getting in.

I know I wrote a lot, but it all boils down to: don't mess up. If you do mess up, you have to spend 2 years for every year that you were lackluster in ANY one area (grades, MCAT, research, volunteering, not being a tool, etc.). One last thing - have a life, too. I interview well (in my PI's own words), b/c I prepare and can strike up conversation about pretty much anything. There are some 3.9 GPA/37 MCAT folks that get completely hosed during the apps season b/c they're mentally backward when it comes to common social things like conversing. Take some time once a week to go out and be normal like 99.99999% of the population. Then spend the rest of the week being utterly outstanding. Schools every once and a while will give you a shot if your numbers are not up to snuff, if they also think for coolness' sake (i.e., diversity) they need to talk with you face-to-face...but the odds of that are statistically 0 in my opinion (1/1,000 or 1/10,000 apps is not a stat worth banking on is what I'm saying).
 
Move to Oklahoma. Enjoy our very low cost of living for a year, then apply as an instate applicant to our not very competitive for an allopathic medical school, or our excellent but even less competitive osteopathic school.
 
BobBarker said:
Move to Oklahoma. Enjoy our very low cost of living for a year, then apply as an instate applicant to our not very competitive for an allopathic medical school, or our excellent but even less competitive osteopathic school.

You know, I've been saying that all along, but no one listens. 🙂 Oklahoma's not the greatest in lots of things, but it's a pretty d@mn good state for premeds.
 
I applied back in '01, thought I had all my bases covered- but it turned out my grades were the issue. I had a 3.5 from a tough school, but a C in one of my intro bio classes- I had thought that would be outweighed by better grades later on, but apparently not. I went and did the Physiology MS at Georgetown, busted by butt and did well. My first intervew, at Finch, the guy told me, "as far as I'm concerned you've proved you can do graduate level work, and frankly if you didn't have these grades from Georgetown we wouldn't have interviewed you." And my state school sent me a letter telling me they wouldn't even consider my application until I had a semester of grades from G'town. I got in to four schools, thanks to that G'town program. I have to recommend it to anyone who wants to prove they can do the work at the med school level.

Basically I cruised along as an undergrad to get that 3.5; the workload in med school (and at the Georgetown program) required a big, big jump in the amount of time and the intensity of my studying. I can see that they might worry that if you're already killing yourself to get that 3.5, there might not be enough energy left to make it at the next level.
 
bubbleyum said:
hi.

has anybody had experiences with being rejected the first time when they did everything "right." like decent mcats & gpa, LORs, took the april mcat and applied early, volunteering, applied to a wide range of schools etc, but STILL didn't get many interviews and ultimately rejected.

what were the reasons for the rejection, if you found out later? since you thought you had all your bases covered.

am wondering because i think i may be in this situation...looking for a re-attack plan to formulate for next year's cycle. thanks!


I am in the same boat... I have a 3.77 Overall GPA a 3.89 BCPM from a top 25 school. 35R on the MCATS, Volunteer Research with publications, honor societies, etc. I only recieved 3 interviews and as of yet 0 acceptances. WTF!?!
 
open sesamoid said:
I applied back in '01, thought I had all my bases covered- but it turned out my grades were the issue. I had a 3.5 from a tough school, but a C in one of my intro bio classes- I had thought that would be outweighed by better grades later on, but apparently not. I went and did the Physiology MS at Georgetown, busted by butt and did well. My first intervew, at Finch, the guy told me, "as far as I'm concerned you've proved you can do graduate level work, and frankly if you didn't have these grades from Georgetown we wouldn't have interviewed you." And my state school sent me a letter telling me they wouldn't even consider my application until I had a semester of grades from G'town. I got in to four schools, thanks to that G'town program. I have to recommend it to anyone who wants to prove they can do the work at the med school level.

Basically I cruised along as an undergrad to get that 3.5; the workload in med school (and at the Georgetown program) required a big, big jump in the amount of time and the intensity of my studying. I can see that they might worry that if you're already killing yourself to get that 3.5, there might not be enough energy left to make it at the next level.

ARE YOU SERIOUS? how many schools did you apply to? that just does not sound right. its not like your grades sucked, you had a 3.5 overall. and ONE C made none of the schools even want to interview you?? what the heck is that? i don't understand it. did you have a good mcat score??

what about all these people who are getting into school with less than stellar gpas(3.1-somethings overall). they have got to have more than one C on their transcript!

where do u guys live? i think that east-coast residents and california residents are getting more interviews at all the "mid-tier" schools even with the average stats. probably because the mid-tier schools most people apply to are in the region of new york-philly-boston-dc. i don't know. maybe i'm just grasping at random illogical reasons to blame for this disappointment.
 
Dov said:
I am in the same boat... I have a 3.77 Overall GPA a 3.89 BCPM from a top 25 school. 35R on the MCATS, Volunteer Research with publications, honor societies, etc. I only recieved 3 interviews and as of yet 0 acceptances. WTF!?!
Yeah, two interviews from Harvard and Penn, right?

Did you only apply to top 10 or 20 programs?
 
Just be tenacious.
I'm a 28yr old non-trad - read my stats in my link if you want- and this year I have had much much more success than last year.
The only change? I started working in a clinic and got letters from both the clinic physician and a clinic manager. I had good grades and had a lot of volunteering, but the adcoms were concerned I was too embedded in my outdoor lifestyle to be serious about medicine.
The UCs all poo-pooed me last year. I just got two invites in the same day (today!) - SD and LA, so I might even get to stay in state. Last year I applied to more schools and submitted my AMCAS in June. This year I was a little more assertive with LOI's, updates and addressed my weak points in my PS. I think it might have worked.

Good luck and DONT give up. 👍
 
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