Good lifestyle + medical career = wanting to have your cake and eat it too?

[cardsurgguy]

Mods: I don’t think this should be an issue, but I’m posting this in pre-allo, allo, and gen residency to see what the differences in viewpoints are at each point along the process.

Anyways,

I was thinking about this the other day working overnight at the hospital. Many medical students and residents have said their specialty choice has come down to one main idea: lifestyle.

This matches the trends in the overall medical field in the last decade or so.

If you talk to these people, anybody who hires physicians after their residencies for group practices and the like will tell you that there’s been a fundamental shift in what the new generation of physicians are concerned about first and foremost: lifestyle, lifestyle, lifestyle (hours, on call responsibilities, etc…) These concerns were nowhere near the top of the list in older generations from what they tell me.

However, there’s also empirical, mathematical evidence that shows this as well. I’m familiar with one JAMA study that did a regression model with the Y variable being specialty choice and the X variables being factors like years of residency, salary, hours worked per week—obviously things that in theory would be the major predictors of specialty choice. The last X variable was a ranking if the specialty had a “controllable” or “uncontrollable” lifestyle.
The #1 X variable that best predicted specialty choice was the controllable lifestyle variable. This explained 55% of the variation in the data. Remember, this was more than years of residency, salary, and hours worked per week. Pretty amazing when you think about it.

However, I can’t help but think one thing the more I hear this new mode of thinking with our generation. As I said above, being honest here, I think that wanting a good lifestyle and a medical career is like wanting to have your cake and eat it too. It seems to me like this is asking for too much.

Who knows, maybe this is easy for me to say since I’m a workaholic. I feel like a lazy bum if I work 40 hours a week. The more hours I work and the more I worked myself to exhaustion, the happier I am... This is true even now. I'm not even in medical school yet, nevermind about residency...and I put my job now ahead of family and friend social functions and go weeks without seeing family or friends who I do enjoy seeing. But still, being honest here, not seeing them doesn't bother me (even though I do enjoy seeing them). I'll admit that's kinda weird-who knows...
As one would expect, lifestyle isn’t going to be an issue with me and my career.

To me, medicine is one of those careers where your job comes first, even over things like family and friends. Now, I’m not saying if your spouse/child is in critical care bordering on death that your career should come first. But I do think it does come first in most cases. For example, if little Timmy has a soccer game or Sarah has a ballet recital, neither of those matter, your job comes first. When you are choosing to apply, choosing to go, or already went into medicine, you’re in effect accepting this and are willing to make this sacrifice. If you don’t want to make sacrifices like these, then you shouldn’t go into medicine.

However, I’m not trying to be a jerk here or say that everybody has to be as extreme as me in this respect (even though that's what people will probably accuse me of...). On the contrary, if everybody was like me or like any other 1 single person, the world wouldn’t work and it would be a boring place b/c nobody would be different.

However, still though, I can’t help thinking that if a person wants to work 40-45 hours a week during the day with very little on call and have control over when they want to work…Why the heck are these people going into medicine??

What do you think? Is a medical career and a good lifestyle asking for too much or being unreasonable?

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[DeLaughterDO]

It isn't unreasonable at all. While medicine is a noble profession (yes, I still believe it is...), many people are realizing that the generations past had it all wrong. The attitude you display is unfortunate. Absentee parenting is not parenting at all. Missing the birthday party, the soccer game, or the recital for work is bull$h!t IMO. Your first responsibility is to your family, not some job, even if the job is medicine.

Yes, we help people in medicine, but not at the expense of our families and our lives. Ever heard of "looking out for #1?"

So maybe I'm lazy, or concerned more with my lifestyle (and family) than a job.. that's fine. I'll still be a damn fine physician, and a damn fine husband and father. Maybe my family won't be as maladjusted as those physicians' families were, and maybe I won't be a raving alcoholic before it's all over...

'nuff said.

jd

another point: a lot of the reason many of the "old timers" had to work such long hours is because there were too few physicians, and none of them were specialized. The sub-specialization of medicine has led to better care for all, and nicer schedules for most. Nevermind the impact of group practices on call schedules - 10 docs (and 3 or 4 midlevels) splitting call is much much better than a solo practice where you cover everything every night.

 

[new_avatar]

Different strokes for different folks.

We all have different values.

And that's fine.

As long as we do our jobs and what's required of us.

Albeit we can't all do ophtho and derm etc.

Someone has to.

Oh, to be young and naive.

In the end you will remember your personal relationships, your work not so much...

However, still though, I can’t help thinking that if a person wants to work 40-45 hours a week during the day with very little on call and have control over when they want to work…Why the heck are these people going into medicine??

This is a reason for going into some fields medicine. Used to work in finance in NY, much much worse. Also get to feel good about youself after work. Some of us even want to have kids heaven forbid that actually know us.

People have different reasons for doing what they do. We do not all want to be surgeons or the intensivist on the ICU. Some of us just want to have a decent career, strong relationships, and varied pursuits outside of medicine.

 

[tigershark]

Hmm what are the chances a thread like this coming from a guy named cardssurgguy

 

[Tanner5]

In the end, your kids won't care if you are the best doctor in your field or how much money you make. All they will remember is that you weren't there to watch them grow up. If you want to put your job ahead of everything else (including your family), that is just unfortunate.


There are opportunities to work a decent schedule, make a contribution to your patient's health, and still have a family and social life.

It just depends what your goals are in life. Some people live to work, and others work to live.

 

[missdr]

i am glad there are still folks out there like you who do want to work all the time cause i sure dont ...please follow your dreams (i guarantee you will end up in either neurosurg, trauma surg or cardthorac surg) and work all you want but do us ALL a favor and please DONT HAVE CHILDREN!!! if you want to put your job first then put your job first, just don't bring other people into the world who will have to suffer for your dreams...i think a lot of the move towards better lifestyle in medicine is due to: 1. the realization of medical errors caused by docs working more than they should 2. more women in medicine who WANT to spend time with their families 3. the reality that there are plenty of docs out there to share the work, and you really don't have to spend all your time at the hospital to keep your job

 

[toughlife]

Mods: I don’t think this should be an issue, but I’m posting this in pre-allo, allo, and gen residency to see what the differences in viewpoints are at each point along the process.

Anyways,

I was thinking about this the other day working overnight at the hospital. Many medical students and residents have said their specialty choice has come down to one main idea: lifestyle.

This matches the trends in the overall medical field in the last decade or so.

If you talk to these people, anybody who hires physicians after their residencies for group practices and the like will tell you that there’s been a fundamental shift in what the new generation of physicians are concerned about first and foremost: lifestyle, lifestyle, lifestyle (hours, on call responsibilities, etc…) These concerns were nowhere near the top of the list in older generations from what they tell me.

However, there’s also empirical, mathematical evidence that shows this as well. I’m familiar with one JAMA study that did a regression model with the Y variable being specialty choice and the X variables being factors like years of residency, salary, hours worked per week—obviously things that in theory would be the major predictors of specialty choice. The last X variable was a ranking if the specialty had a “controllable” or “uncontrollable” lifestyle.
The #1 X variable that best predicted specialty choice was the controllable lifestyle variable. This explained 55% of the variation in the data. Remember, this was more than years of residency, salary, and hours worked per week. Pretty amazing when you think about it.

However, I can’t help but think one thing the more I hear this new mode of thinking with our generation. As I said above, being honest here, I think that wanting a good lifestyle and a medical career is like wanting to have your cake and eat it too. It seems to me like this is asking for too much.

Who knows, maybe this is easy for me to say since I’m a workaholic. I feel like a lazy bum if I work 40 hours a week. The more hours I work and the more I worked myself to exhaustion, the happier I am... This is true even now. I'm not even in medical school yet, nevermind about residency...and I put my job now ahead of family and friend social functions and go weeks without seeing family or friends who I do enjoy seeing. But still, being honest here, not seeing them doesn't bother me (even though I do enjoy seeing them). I'll admit that's kinda weird-who knows...
As one would expect, lifestyle isn’t going to be an issue with me and my career.

To me, medicine is one of those careers where your job comes first, even over things like family and friends. Now, I’m not saying if your spouse/child is in critical care bordering on death that your career should come first. But I do think it does come first in most cases. For example, if little Timmy has a soccer game or Sarah has a ballet recital, neither of those matter, your job comes first. When you are choosing to apply, choosing to go, or already went into medicine, you’re in effect accepting this and are willing to make this sacrifice. If you don’t want to make sacrifices like these, then you shouldn’t go into medicine.

However, I’m not trying to be a jerk here or say that everybody has to be as extreme as me in this respect (even though that's what people will probably accuse me of...). On the contrary, if everybody was like me or like any other 1 single person, the world wouldn’t work and it would be a boring place b/c nobody would be different.

However, still though, I can’t help thinking that if a person wants to work 40-45 hours a week during the day with very little on call and have control over when they want to work…Why the heck are these people going into medicine??

What do you think? Is a medical career and a good lifestyle asking for too much or being unreasonable?

You're a pre-med. Enough said.

 

[automaton]

Hmm what are the chances a thread like this coming from a guy named cardssurgguy

from the class of 2010 no less

 

[undecided3yr]

I know a general surgeon who has been practicing in one of the university hospitals for 30+ years. He took call every other night with only one partner for years. Now he is worth millions, he gets paid well above the average (800K) and his family has multiple businesses he has invested in.

But he has a wife spends her time getting plastered at the country club pool bar, he has 3 sons who are drug addicts and/or alcoholics and hate him. He was never home. When I see him at restaurants he and his wife are always drunk. He talks about possible divorce all the time to med students and residents in the OR (except he doesnt want to lose any money to her)

What Im saying is I wouldnt trade his life with all the money and prestige for that family life. I will take my "lifestyle" residency with its measly 6 figure salary and time to spend at home with my spouse and kids and just have to sacrafice the house in Los Cabos.

 

[darrvao777]

"However, still though, I can’t help thinking that if a person wants to work 40-45 hours a week during the day with very little on call and have control over when they want to work…Why the heck are these people going into medicine??"

Errr...some of the most qualified medical students out there are busting their humps to obtain jobs like these.


I would also like to add that on the very 1st day of med school, we were told that the only way we could help patients was if we were personally in a good state. That means having a healthy family relationship, perhaps personal relationship, etc... etc...

I have a feeling your viewpoint on this will change as you progress through med school though

 

[Plastikos]

Ask yourself this, in the end when you can no longer work, how do you want to be remembered and taken care of. At the end of slaving away for a hospital/university what does it get you? A plaque or wing of the hospital named after you, big deal. Id rather have a family that loves me and WANTS to take care of me if anything goes south. A hospital doesnt give a crap about you, and im constantly surprised at everybody that feels so devoted to it.

 

[NinerNiner999]

To me, medicine is one of those careers where your job comes first, even over things like family and friends. Now, I’m not saying if your spouse/child is in critical care bordering on death that your career should come first. But I do think it does come first in most cases. For example, if little Timmy has a soccer game or Sarah has a ballet recital, neither of those matter, your job comes first. When you are choosing to apply, choosing to go, or already went into medicine, you’re in effect accepting this and are willing to make this sacrifice. If you don’t want to make sacrifices like these, then you shouldn’t go into medicine...What do you think? Is a medical career and a good lifestyle asking for too much or being unreasonable?

Dude - with that work ethic you are going to go far - very far. Probably farther than everyone else you work with. You will go so far that you will find yourself lonely with only your work to keep you company. Your colleagues will despise you and you eventually will become bitter and angry with those who don't work as hard as you. Change yourself now. Seriously. If you have already gained acceptance into medical school, take a break from college and seek help. Nobody, especially a pre-med, should ever miss out on as much life as you already have. I'm not being sarcastic or confrontational here, I'm telling you the truth. It sounds like you need to learn how to balance your work ethic with a life...

 

[doclm]

A hospital doesnt give a crap about you, and im constantly surprised at everybody that feels so devoted to it.

Yes, you are right on the money here with this statement. I cannot believe all the long stressful hours that docs devote to their positions at hospitals. Many docs are thrown into working long hours under a very broad microscope that will examine if you have any mess ups after working 80+ a week. Hey, after working two years as a Medical Technologist (OR, PACU, ICU, ER, Nursery, OBGYN, in-patient, out-patient, CODE team) at one of the top medical centers, I am ready to someday put all of my time working for myself in a private/multispecialty practice helping and changing the lives of patients one day at a time.

 

[Spittz03]

Doctors work at least twice as much as everyone else and hence it makes sense to search for specialties that have better work hours. It is extremely sad... that some of the brightest minds in medicine are working their butts only to get themselves into a lifestyle profession however! It ends there for them... they forget their passions, their dreams that they had when they entered medical school and they try to shut down pre-meds that still have the urge to do something special. Worst of all, a lot are entering Medical school with that goal in mind from the start. No kidding our profession is loosing some respect.

 

[new_avatar]

Doctors work at least twice as much as everyone else and hence it makes sense to search for specialties that have better work hours. It is extremely sad... that some of the brightest minds in medicine are working their butts only to get themselves into a lifestyle profession however! It ends there for them... they forget their passions, their dreams that they had when they entered medical school and they try to shut down pre-meds that still have the urge to do something special. Worst of all, a lot are entering Medical school with that goal in mind from the start. No kidding our profession is loosing some respect.

Everyone has their own definition of what's "something special."

For some it may be delivering babies.

For others it may be treating recalcitrant psoriasis, giving a HiB shot, doing breast augmentation surgery.

Who am I to judge?

I am all for CSG if he wants to work his a$$ off. That's great!

I want to work hard.

But I want to do other things too.

There are mountains I want to climb.

Places I want to visit.

People I want to meet.

 

[mfrederi]

Quit trying to talk this guy out of it! I think your work ethic is great. I will always be able to count on you when I need a surgical eval in the ER. You'll come without me begging you, without me ordering every imaging study that modern American medicine has to offer only to confirm what you and I already knew- my pt needs surgery. You won't put off doing surgery and leave me managing an acute surgical problem in the hall of my ED. You'll come in quick, disshelved, tired, just having woken up, leaving your trophy wife in bed sleeping off her night cap. I'll "what up man, thanks for coming in!" Then, sign the chart, smile at you, and walk my non-beeper having butt right out the door to my above average car (that will never be as cool as yours) to spend the next day doing the only job that deserves to dominate my life- father and husband. So, in summary- I love you man.

 

[8744]

..A hospital doesnt give a crap about you, and im constantly surprised at everybody that feels so devoted to it...

So true. Especially as a resident you are just a warm body and interchangeable cheap labor.

Why suck it up if you don't have to? There is no prize at the end of residency for taking one for the hospital.

 

[GoofyDoc]

I'm actually quite surprised that these old-school attitudes about the medical profession still exist and are perpetuated by people of our generation. Medicine is a noble profession, but it's still a JOB. We do it for to help people and to earn a living. CSG - If you want to live your life the way you described, good for you. No one's going to attempt to stop you if you have that type of stamina and motivation. But don't put other people down who act human and favor their families over their jobs. That's just wrong and double more so coming from a premed. And like a previous poster said, if you choose to lead the workaholic life, please don't have any children unless you actually intend to play an active role in their lives (which I doubt judging by your statments). Good luck in your endeavors.

 

[GoofyDoc]

I just had to add that this whole argument of medicine being more important than family is faulty. I bet you the doctors who work like horses aren't being altruistic. They just want to make more money or like the OP just have so much energy they can't not work.

A little OT here - what's the point of having a cake if you can't eat it?

 

[secretwave101]

It's good that some people have the HUGE work ethic thing. Great. You gotta be that way for neurosurg, among others. And at the point when I need the medulloblastoma taken out of my kid's head, I'll be looking for the most maladjusted, unhappy, kid-hated, wife-beaten, fact-nerd out there because I want someone who worships at the altar of the scrub tub.

So, there's a place for everyone. Still, the work ethic thing seems to take a serious nose-dive between 3rd year of med school and graduation. So - pre-medder guy - wait 'till you're looking at a real career in medicine before you totally dismiss anyone who wants both a medical career and a good life. You may find yourself in the same place one day...

 

[ratched]

I happen to agree with most here who want a balanced life for him/herself. But I caution you to not speak down to our future card surg poster. It's not only those who are in the midst of medical training that work their butts off - some of us worked very grueling jobs before med school, and it sounds like this poster is walking the walk already. Not everyone grows disillusioned with hard work during clerkship, either. During his training, I'm sure this surgeon will see that one can be an effective physician without working 100 hour weeks, but those that want this should feel free to do so. We don't have to tell him/her how to raise children, and we don't need to follow his/her advice regarding our practice. There's really no need to sling mud.

 

[Plastikos]

Doctors work at least twice as much as everyone else and hence it makes sense to search for specialties that have better work hours. It is extremely sad... that some of the brightest minds in medicine are working their butts only to get themselves into a lifestyle profession however! It ends there for them... they forget their passions, their dreams that they had when they entered medical school and they try to shut down pre-meds that still have the urge to do something special. Worst of all, a lot are entering Medical school with that goal in mind from the start. No kidding our profession is loosing some respect.

Dont be a hater, people will constantly put down plastics/derm/rads, etc.. as a lifestyle career but that doesnt mean good things arent done in these fields, great things are done and all are needed.

You are mistaken if you think thats why our profession gets less respect, its the exact opposite. Other professionals mock us not b/c we "no longer want to kill ourselves for the cause" but b/c we have been duped by the man. They laugh (as do i) when we act ashamed to make money, and take the brutal treatment that we do, while patting ourselves on the back for our moral superiority.

Nobility does not=stupidity, at least not to me. I dont know when this concept became so prevalent but medicine wasnt always like this, and it was seen as a smart career choice with great pay. Counterintuitively though, as hours have gone up and pay/respect/autonomy have gone down, the idea that you should do it out of the goodness of your heart has grown.

None of that means that drs. nowadays ONLY do it for lifestyle/pay/etc...many still love the uniqueness of what we do, and are fully aware of it. You dont have to spend 100 hours a week in the hospital to do that, and personally i find its easier when your not.

Another thing, how often when you work over 100 hours a week are you actually doing anything patient related? I think the change will be good b/c it will force the system to be more efficient and become better overall for patients and staff.

 

[Plastikos]

it sounds like this poster is walking the walk already. There's really no need to sling mud.

That is part of the problem, the OP hasnt even started medical school yet, and therefore is just regurgitating what those around him have probably said. I find that very annoying to have someone at that level tell students and residents what we should be doing. Maybe hes worked real hard in life or something (many have), but until he has actually done it, its a bit premature to take such a stance on it. Although I agree mudslinging gets one nowhere.

 

[Laryngospasm]

However, still though, I can’t help thinking that if a person wants to work 40-45 hours a week during the day with very little on call and have control over when they want to work…Why the heck are these people going into medicine??

QUOTE]

Probably because they can still contribute a lot, have a good life and spend time with their family. And yes Im sure you work hard, but you have not completed a grueling residency have you? Do you take call every 3rd nite like some residents? Up all night almost every time? Didnt think so, you havent even passed step one yet, give me a break. I used to work in a factory, the temp reached 110 in the afternoon, new people literally passed out due to heat exhaustion, we worked 12 hour shifts. It was not as hard as my medical training has been on me. Hard physically yes, but years of mental stress will take its toll on almost everyone.

Why dont you come back when you have completed this residency that you so look forward to, and tell us how you feel. If you you feel the same Ill be extremely surprised. The world is full of premeds who think they know what its like, walk the walk and youll get more respect.

And whose to say a dermatologist who works 40-50 hours a week and diagnoses skin ca. doesnt contribute immensely to peoples lives? You? Or a pain physician that decreases someones pain? Or a radiologist that catches ca. before anyone else, allowing early treatment? So these people dont contribute I guess.

 

[cardsurgguy]

Figured this would happen--everybody accusing me thinking things that I don't believe.

First off, just to clarify...I've said this before and will always say it, but I DO NOT think for a second that I know what it is like to be a physician.

I've worked for 5 years now in inpatient care (ever since I was 19) on every floor of the hospital from assisting with CT surgery in the OR to wrestling aggressive patients on psych and the in the ER and everything in between

and if there's one thing I've learned in those 5 years, it's this...
anybody who is not a physician who says that he/she knows what it is like to be a physician is a *****...If somebody believed this, I'd be right along side of all of you telling them they are WRONG.

I'm at the point where with each day I work, I realize more and more how much I don't know.

Howard Stern said once on his show..."I'm smart enough to know I'm dumb"
While I'm certainly not dumb, the idea applies here...
I know enough to realize how much I don't know.



HOWEVER, with that being the case, it's not a 0 or 100 all or nothing type of scenario.

I'm not "regurgitating what others have told me" as one person said. These are my owns observations from my work.
I'm not and doctor nor do I know what it is like to be one, but do not think for a second that I've never stepped foot in a hospital, rounded with physicians and questioned and discussed diseases and treatment regiments (ie not just standing there in the background as a statue), or talked to a patient in my life...You'd be sorely mistaken.

I've heard many people refer to certain "firsts" here as in 3rd year is the first time you do this or that in your life...Most of these things I've already done and have so for years.

I often overhear 3rd year medical students in the cafeteria or on the floors where I work ooing and aahing over what they saw on their rotations that day, saying things with surprise and aw...Things that are and have been daily occurences for me for years. Let's just put it this way, they are talking about their experiences the way I did 5 years ago when I started working when I was 19.

Also, most of the residents that I work with have told me it's good what I have done b/c I'll already know what to expect and have nothing come to me as a surprise 3rd year. And yes, these are coming from residents who are physicians and therefore would obviously know what being a physician is like...
This matches with what a physician on one of my med school interviews told me this past fall word for word after looking at my file "wow, you have more clinical experience than most medical students."

It is true that most premeds have no clinical experience (hence all of the what counts as clinical experience threads in preallo), it's not true for everybody.

Again, I would be a ***** to think I know what it is like to be a physician, but I do know a thing or two...

 

[cardsurgguy]

Also, I forgot to add this in the last post.

People have been saying that I will change.

Who knows, maybe I will, maybe I won't.

If I change, then so be it! I certainly have nothing against change.

I look forward to change. Life would be boring if we stayed static and never changed.

But to suggest that what one thinks/likes now are either 1. meaningless or 2. guarranteed to change would be simply stupid.



Besides, consider this example...
I know of a pediatric cardiac surgeon who had a long interest (in terms of time) in becoming a pediatric cardiac surgeon.

He's a pediatric cardiac surgeon now, which means he didn't change throughout the medical education process. And by the way, he loves what he does and told me he wouldn't do anything else.

What do I want to do?
Pediatric cardiac surgery...

 

[SoCuteMD]

Also, I forgot to add this in the last post.

People have been saying that I will change.

Who knows, maybe I will, maybe I won't.

If I change, then so be it! I certainly have nothing against change.

I look forward to change. Life would be boring if we stayed static and never changed.

But to suggest that what one thinks/likes now are either 1. meaningless or 2. guarranteed to change would be simply stupid.



Besides, consider this example...
I know of a pediatric cardiac surgeon who had a long interest (in terms of time) in becoming a pediatric cardiac surgeon.

He's a pediatric cardiac surgeon now, which means he didn't change throughout the medical education process. And by the way, he loves what he does and told me he wouldn't do anything else.

What do I want to do?
Pediatric cardiac surgery...

Actually, it doesn't mean that he didn't change. It most likely means he changed and changed back. If someone gets through all of their third year rotations and doesn't once question what they want to do, I would be seriously concerned about that person.

 

[cardsurgguy]

Actually, it doesn't mean that he didn't change. It most likely means he changed and changed back. If someone gets through all of their third year rotations and doesn't once question what they want to do, I would be seriously concerned about that person.

Sure, this is possible. I meant he did what he wanted to do overall in terms of beginning and end. Might have changed 1000 times for all I know, or maybe 0.


Just out of curiousity, I'm interested as the exactly why you'd "be concerned about that person" if someone went through entire 3rd year rotations and never changed what they wanted to do from before 3rd year started to after 3rd year finished?

What makes you say this? Why would you be concerned about them? Is this a negative if they never changed throughout 3rd year?

I'm trying to think why it would be a concerning issue or why it would be a negative, but I honestly can't...

 

[darrvao777]

I can view this two ways.

View #1: If the person never changed his/her mind throughout rotations, then it means he/she has been set on this field for a long time. This shows dedication, commitment, all that good stuff. And if someone has that kind of interest and enthusiasm, he/she will probably be very good at what he/she wants to do.

View #2: If the person never changed his/her mind throughout rotations, then it means he/she had a very closed mind throughout his/her education. This is concerning becuase unless the person has actually had experience in the field of their choice, they are clearly basing their interest on something other than experience. In many cases, that would be money.

e.g. A 1st year medical student enters and knows that he wants to do orthopedic surgery or dermatology. (I'm just picking these fields as they tend to have higher pay. No negative implications towards either field!!) All throughout med school, they never consider anything else. How many 1st year med students have seen all aspects of orthopedic surgery? Clearly, they are basing their decision on the financial aspect of the job. That, is the part that would be concerning.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Sure, this is possible. I meant he did what he wanted to do overall in terms of beginning and end. Might have changed 1000 times for all I know, or maybe 0.


Just out of curiousity, I'm interested as the exactly why you'd "be concerned about that person" if someone went through entire 3rd year rotations and never changed what they wanted to do from before 3rd year started to after 3rd year finished?

What makes you say this? Why would you be concerned about them? Is this a negative if they never changed throughout 3rd year?

I'm trying to think why it would be a concerning issue or why it would be a negative, but I honestly can't...

Because it would mean they had blinders on and their mind was closed if they didn't stop for at least a little bit to consider whether they might actually like something else. Someone deciding on cardiothoracic surgery as a high school student, undergrad, or 1st/2nd year med student probably has very little exposure to the field (unless it's through shadowing or they happen upon a research position), so how do they know they wouldn't love neurosurg or trauma just as much or more? Overall I think it's GREAT to have a goal. For me it's essential - I have to have a "prize" to keep my eyes on.

If someone never had an incredible moment on a rotation (and even though I'm pre-clinical, I've done a LOT of very varied clinical work, so I kinda know what I'm talking about here) that made them say, "Whoa...maybe THIS is it, maybe THIS is meant for me" then I would be concerned. It's also possible at a lot of med schools (given the way they try to expose students to gen surg and a specialty) that you wouldn't end up even seeing a cardiosurg case until you did an elective in your 4th year - in which case you would be comparing your entire third year to something you hadn't even experienced. In that case, you would be measuring a known quantity against something unknown - and deciding on the unknown every single time?


Oh, and because I'm the grammar Nazi - something is not "concerning" or a "concerning issue" - it's a concern .

 

[Laryngospasm]

Besides, consider this example...
I know of a pediatric cardiac surgeon who had a long interest (in terms of time) in becoming a pediatric cardiac surgeon.

He's a pediatric cardiac surgeon now, which means he didn't change throughout the medical education process. And by the way, he loves what he does and told me he wouldn't do anything else.

What do I want to do?
Pediatric cardiac surgery...

Good, a sample size of 1, thats an impressive statistic. Most people change several times is our point.
When I was in school I worked with a great pediatric surgeon, considered by many to be the best in the country if not the world. He killed himself christmas eve a year ago. Theres another sample size of 1 for you.

By the way, you didnt answer the question about the radiologist, pain doc, or derm doc did you. Do they contribute to medicine or not?

 

[mfrederi]

Good, a sample size of 1, thats an impressive statistic. Most people change several times is our point.
When I was in school I worked with a great pediatric surgeon, considered by many to be the best in the country if not the world. He killed himself christmas eve a year ago. Theres another sample size of 1 for you.

By the way, you didnt answer the question about the radiologist, pain doc, or derm doc did you. Do they contribute to medicine or not?

I don't think you need to worry about whether or not you change your mind. Granted, I am only a MSIII, but if you have a strong pre-clinical experience in a certain field then it is hard to argue yourself out of it. I worked in an ER and OR prior to med school, and thus I defined medicine more through the "big stuff." Things like CABG, hot appys, GSW, MI, DKA, level I traumas etc were my premed experience, which I immensely enjoyed. So, despite having an open mind, everything always came back to similar types of things which I had enjoyed greatly prior to medical school, and have continued to be fascinated by in third year; mainly my premed experiences being emergency medicine and surgery. Well, EM fits much better with my personality and life goals, so that is what I have chosen. I tried to think about other things. I considered OB/GYN, CT surgery, IM, Critical Care, but ultimately it kept coming back to what I fell in love with before med school.

 

[secretwave101]

There are people who are just gunners, all the way through. They're the kind of people who seem to need almost no sleep; they're fine with bad food at unusual hours. Sex and friends and fun are all secondary to some goal they have. I wouldn't mind being this kind of person, but I'm just not. Most people - including doctors - aren't. But I'm glad some are, because there's a few specialties out there that really demand that type of person. Maybe the OP is one of 'em. Great. If so, I say good luck and just be careful in determining your limits. Everyone has them.

But there's lots of wisdom in the oft-stated sentiment in this thread that career ideas and goals should be re-evaluated during 3rd and part of 4th year. Things may very well end up back where they started...but there should be some good honest critical decision-making during that time. Very few people have had an experience equivalent to the MS 3/4 years prior to going through them, so the real career choices should be suspended until then. Prior to 3/4, the type of doc a person "wants" to be is just a dream based on a cacophony of perceptions that may or may not be accurate.

 

[Plastikos]

Clearly, they are basing their decision on the financial aspect of the job. That, is the part that would be concerning.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Why does everyone look down upon this kind of thinking so strongly? I could care less if people choose to be cardiac surgeons b/c of great pay. Its not like it diminishes in any way what they do, and theres nothing wrong with making money. How many of us would be willing to do the volume thats standard now and be making 50K as an attending? Then people would be up in arms b/c of the length of training/service provided/benefit to society/etc....

This kind of thinking will go the way of the 100 work week in my opinion. As long as tuition prices keep going up, and pay stays static or decreases, people will soon come around. You shouldnt feel guilty about getting compensated well, as long as your actually logging the cases/hours and doing what you can without causing harm to your patients or engaging in unethical behaviors.

 

[jjzechlinski]

My personal thought is, what's the point in making all the money as a pediatric cardiac surgeon if you don't have any time to spend it. It's pretty hard to maintain any sort of hobby (tennis, biking) if you only have time to do it once a month.

Also, you don't have to be a cardiac surgeon fixing a genetic defect in a 'clinging to life' child in order to do important, meaningful, noble work as a doctor. A nephrologist prescribing medications for blood pressure, etc can influence just as many lives (if not more).

And at least for myself, the #1 thing in medicine (as ppl have posted earlier) is to stay healthy yourself, mentally and physically. To put your work before anything else (especially your kids, wife (or husband)) is a bit heartless. The first maxim they teach you in EMS training (my experience) is to protect yourself. A doctor down the street from me shot himself and his son after suffering an aneurism, simply because he was too stressed about missing work while he was recovering. His collegues kept telling him to just stay home all along, but it was too late... He's not saving any more lives now, is he?

My main point is, I don't have to work at the so-called 'pinnacle' of medicine to do important work treating disease and helping patients. That being said, I'm looking at derm, ER, or radiology.

 

[darrvao777]

Why does everyone look down upon this kind of thinking so strongly? I could care less if people choose to be cardiac surgeons b/c of great pay. Its not like it diminishes in any way what they do, and theres nothing wrong with making money. How many of us would be willing to do the volume thats standard now and be making 50K as an attending? Then people would be up in arms b/c of the length of training/service provided/benefit to society/etc....

This kind of thinking will go the way of the 100 work week in my opinion. As long as tuition prices keep going up, and pay stays static or decreases, people will soon come around. You shouldnt feel guilty about getting compensated well, as long as your actually logging the cases/hours and doing what you can without causing harm to your patients or engaging in unethical behaviors.

While this certainly happens, I would prefer to have a doctor (especially if we are talking about heart surgery) who is really passionate, interested, and focused on what he/she is doing instead of one whose primary goal is to extract the largest sum of money from me.

So I certainly can't fault someone for choosing a job with higher pay, but it would make me uneasy if this person were entrusted with such a serious job and has only considered the financial aspects of that job.

 

[cardsurgguy]

I'm probably going to get more difficulty for this, but oh well...

Because it would mean they had blinders on and their mind was closed if they didn't stop for at least a little bit to consider whether they might actually like something else.

You're stereotyping. While this may be true the majority of cases, who is to say that nothing else interests that person with that person giving each area a fair chance and beginning each rotation with interest to learn more with an open mind.
Do you not think it's possible for a person to only be interested in 1 thing?

Someone deciding on cardiothoracic surgery as a high school student, undergrad, or 1st/2nd year med student probably has very little exposure to the field (unless it's through shadowing or they happen upon a research position)

It's also possible at a lot of med schools (given the way they try to expose students to gen surg and a specialty) that you wouldn't end up even seeing a cardiosurg case until you did an elective in your 4th year - in which case you would be comparing your entire third year to something you hadn't even experienced. In that case, you would be measuring a known quantity against something unknown - and deciding on the unknown every single time?

WRONG...(at least with me)
Multiple years of summers and breaks home from college working long hours in the...

OR Assisting with Cardiac Surgery
Heart Transplant Unit
Open Heart ICU
PICU (i.e. with Congenital Heart Defect Patients)

Is that enough of "seeing a cardiosurg case" for ya?

Anybody would be barking up the wrong tree if they're trying to challenge me on experience with cardiac surgery...nuff said.

so how do they know they wouldn't love neurosurg or trauma just as much or more?

Because they have worked on the following units in addition to the above cardiac areas

ER
ICU's (SICU, MICU, CCU)
Ortho
General Peds
General Medicine
Neuroscience floor
PACU
Cardiology
Psychiatry
Kidney Transplant
there are probably others I can't remember...

I went on each floor with an open mind. I would be right with you and say a person was absolutely wrong if they had blinders on and never gave anything a chance.

I think working on these floors has given me more of an ability to know what I like, because I've pretty much seen every area of medicine.

I have to say, working on all of these floors only increased my passion for cardiac surgery. And also that I really have no other interests than cardiac surgery (more specifically the fields thereof)

If someone never had an incredible moment on a rotation (and even though I'm pre-clinical, I've done a LOT of very varied clinical work, so I kinda know what I'm talking about here) that made them say, "Whoa...maybe THIS is it, maybe THIS is meant for me" then I would be concerned.

I would be too.

But don't think for a second that you absolutely have to be in medical school to have this happen. Statistically speaking most people would, but that's the thing about statistics...As is the case with evidence based medicine, there are people who fall out of the statistics like me...

You all will probably laugh at this, but I could really care less.

The cardiac surgery experience I gave above is not when I realized I had the passion I do for cardiac surgery.

I've known cardiac surgery since I was 10 years old. How?

I took a dissection course and had the "Whoa, THIS is it" moment in that course.
I was interested in every organ system we did. But when I got the heart, something snapped in me. Seriously, it was like a ton of bricks hit me. It was truly a "Whoa" moment.

I had a feeling that I didn't have for any other organs. There was something here that wasn't present with any other organ. I had not just a deeper interest intellectually, but I had a passion for the heart in terms of emotionally.

Like I said, it was like a revelation (and that's coming from an person who is not religious at all, so that means something ). There was and still is a feeling that I don't want to work with the heart, I have to work with the heart.

Once again, I'm not a divine type of person, so I definitely don't believe in predestination. But I have to say, sometimes I do wonder if I wasn't meant to be this. If I wasn't born to do it.

I had a feeling that the heart is where I'm supposed to be. The heart is where I belong.

I didn't choose this passion for the heart. It chose me. It just clicked.

Surgery because I loved the dissection. And because I can't just think all the time, I have to "do".

So in my 10 year old mind back then, I put the following equation together--"heart+surgery=heart surgery"

Pediatric cardiac surgery because of how unbelievably interesting the congenital defects are. Pair this with that fact that kids are my favorite patients and it's just **** luck that they have defects, not smoking for 30 years and not taking care of themselves.



Well, that was 14 years ago (24 years old now)...I haven't changed a day since.
(the peds cardiac surgery was at age 21 to be technical)

and with all of the cardiac surgery and non cardiac surgery experience as outlined above that I have gained, my passion and love for the heart and cardiac surgery has only grown by leaps and bounds...

You're talking about a person here who if I'm bored at home or even after I work multiple 16 hour shifts in a row, just for fun, I'll spend 2-3 hours looking up stuff about cardiac surgery like congenital defects, balloon pumps, left ventricular assist devices, EKG rhythms, and mechanism of action for cardiac drugs like inotropic drugs like milrinone and digoxin.

Cardiac surgery is the only field I can do this with. You'd have to pay me to spend time looking up stuff about any other field. I don't even have the curiousity to learn about anything else. No other organ or field sparks any curiousity in me.




In summary, do not judge all as one. There are some of us who are not the stereotypical ignorant doesn't know anything about medicine before entering medical school type of person. There are some of us who actually make our viewpoints based on experiences and not a "cacophony of perceptions" as one poster called it.




and just so people don't assume again that I think I know just as much as a physican, I'm copying my last post from the other page as a disclaimer on this issue

Figured this would happen--everybody accusing me thinking things that I don't believe.

First off, just to clarify...I've said this before and will always say it, but I DO NOT think for a second that I know what it is like to be a physician.

I've worked for 5 years now in inpatient care (ever since I was 19) on every floor of the hospital from assisting with CT surgery in the OR to wrestling aggressive patients on psych and the in the ER and everything in between

and if there's one thing I've learned in those 5 years, it's this...
anybody who is not a physician who says that he/she knows what it is like to be a physician is a *****...If somebody believed this, I'd be right along side of all of you telling them they are WRONG.

I'm at the point where with each day I work, I realize more and more how much I don't know.

Howard Stern said once on his show..."I'm smart enough to know I'm dumb"
While I'm certainly not dumb, the idea applies here...
I know enough to realize how much I don't know.



HOWEVER, with that being the case, it's not a 0 or 100 all or nothing type of scenario.

I'm not "regurgitating what others have told me" as one person said. These are my owns observations from my work.
I'm not and doctor nor do I know what it is like to be one, but do not think for a second that I've never stepped foot in a hospital, rounded with physicians and questioned and discussed diseases and treatment regiments (ie not just standing there in the background as a statue), or talked to a patient in my life...You'd be sorely mistaken.

I've heard many people refer to certain "firsts" here as in 3rd year is the first time you do this or that in your life...Most of these things I've already done and have so for years.

I often overhear 3rd year medical students in the cafeteria or on the floors where I work ooing and aahing over what they saw on their rotations that day, saying things with surprise and aw...Things that are and have been daily occurences for me for years. Let's just put it this way, they are talking about their experiences the way I did 5 years ago when I started working when I was 19.

Also, most of the residents that I work with have told me it's good what I have done b/c I'll already know what to expect and have nothing come to me as a surprise 3rd year. And yes, these are coming from residents who are physicians and therefore would obviously know what being a physician is like...
This matches with what a physician on one of my med school interviews told me this past fall word for word after looking at my file "wow, you have more clinical experience than most medical students."

It is true that most premeds have no clinical experience (hence all of the what counts as clinical experience threads in preallo), it's not true for everybody.

Again, I would be a ***** to think I know what it is like to be a physician, but I do know a thing or two...

PS

1.I am not putting down anybody who is concerned about lifestyle. I think that would be wrong. I was merely posing a question in this thred.

2.I never ever said, simply because this is stupid to think, that rads or derm or other specialties aren't as important as Laryngospasm apparently thinks. Anybody who believes this is an idiot. I think you may have me confused with somebody else who posted.

 

[Plastikos]

While this certainly happens, I would prefer to have a doctor (especially if we are talking about heart surgery) who is really passionate, interested, and focused on what he/she is doing instead of one whose primary goal is to extract the largest sum of money from me.

So I certainly can't fault someone for choosing a job with higher pay, but it would make me uneasy if this person were entrusted with such a serious job and has only considered the financial aspects of that job.

Thats part of what im saying, just b/c you want more/time spent doesnt NECESSARILY make you any less of those things. You could be ultra compassionate and caring, yet still want to be compensated, and therefore when choosing between two things you like say....cardiology vs. card surgery....and they choose surgery, i dont think that makes them less.

I guess what i mean is we all have certain attributes (hopefully) that will make us good people/caring drs., kind of like undergrad education I see it as a foundation. I really dont think those things have to be a major point when choosing a career b/c hopefully no matter what you go into that will be the case and you can use other factors in your decisionmaking process.

I know its not always true.

 

[firetown]

This post about lifestyle reminds me of the Dr Phil show about a doctor (I think an ER doctor) with the dysfunctional family.

Doctor working his butt off-never at home, Wife spending like crazy and children into all sorts of things. Pornography and the rest. I have seen them twice on the show and I think they are appearing today.

 

[GoofyDoc]

Why does everyone look down upon this kind of thinking so strongly? I could care less if people choose to be cardiac surgeons b/c of great pay. Its not like it diminishes in any way what they do, and theres nothing wrong with making money. How many of us would be willing to do the volume thats standard now and be making 50K as an attending? Then people would be up in arms b/c of the length of training/service provided/benefit to society/etc....

This kind of thinking will go the way of the 100 work week in my opinion. As long as tuition prices keep going up, and pay stays static or decreases, people will soon come around. You shouldnt feel guilty about getting compensated well, as long as your actually logging the cases/hours and doing what you can without causing harm to your patients or engaging in unethical behaviors.

Medicine is a job and you're allowed to make as much money as you want - nothing wrong with that. So if you want to work 120 hours a week in order to make mega-bucks go ahead, but don't pretend like you're doing something holy and that everyone who doesn't work as hard as you is a bad doctor. KWIM?

As far as the OP is concerned, I don't find it at all hard to forsee him staying focused on his specialty of choice. Personally, I hated surgery and thought CT was the most boring surgical specialty (I contaminated myself on purpose once during a case in order to get out because I was so bored). But peds surgery is awesome and I don't know anyone who rotated through it and didn't love it.

 

[skypilot]

This post about lifestyle reminds me of the Dr Phil show about a doctor (I think an ER doctor) with the dysfunctional family.

Doctor working his butt off-never at home, Wife spending like crazy and children into all sorts of things. Pornography and the rest. I have seen them twice on the show and I think they are appearing today.

I remember that one. The guy was an ER doc. They had a beautiful home and spoiled kids. The wife was a complete shopaholic who would buy expensive useless things as revenge against her husband. He was a "shift *****" in the ER and would work endlessly to keep them from falling more deeply into debt. He was a recovering drug addict too. It just goes to show you that workaholism can lead to the collapse of your life despite your high income.

 

[Plastikos]

Medicine is a job and you're allowed to make as much money as you want - nothing wrong with that. So if you want to work 120 hours a week in order to make mega-bucks go ahead, but don't pretend like you're doing something holy and that everyone who doesn't work as hard as you is a bad doctor. KWIM?

As far as the OP is concerned, I don't find it at all hard to forsee him staying focused on his specialty of choice. Personally, I hated surgery and thought CT was the most boring surgical specialty (I contaminated myself on purpose once during a case in order to get out because I was so bored). But peds surgery is awesome and I don't know anyone who rotated through it and didn't love it.

Of course, i agree but i also agree with the semi-opposite that one who does FP/IM isnt holier than someone who is an apparent workaholic just b/c of the pay discrepancy or percieved intent. Its just as bad.

I also can definitely see the OP as a CT surgeon, LMAO.

 

[skypilot]

I think that lots of medical students would not choose cardiac surgery because they consider it repetitive and monotonous. But I admire the OPs dedication and they are sure to be a competent surgeon with that attitude.

Something has to give though. I have heard of surgeons who have chosen not to have kids because they know they would make lousy parents. It is impossible to maintain a balanced life if you are committed to workaholism.

 

[PLK7905]

You're talking about a person here who if I'm bored at home or even after I work multiple 16 hour shifts in a row, just for fun, I'll spend 2-3 hours looking up stuff about cardiac surgery like congenital defects, balloon pumps, left ventricular assist devices, EKG rhythms, and mechanism of action for cardiac drugs like inotropic drugs like milrinone and digoxin.

Cardiac surgery is the only field I can do this with. You'd have to pay me to spend time looking up stuff about any other field. I don't even have the curiousity to learn about anything else. No other organ or field sparks any curiousity in me.

.

Actually, if you are going to med school, YOU are going to have to pay THEM to study all of those other fields that you have no interest in

Really, I see that you have a lot of experience in CT surgery--good for you. Just keep an open mind through med school, because you do have to learn stuff about all the other fields as well. By the way, can I ask what you what job you have been doing in the hospital? Just curious.

 

[DrNick2006]

I applaud your conviction, your dedication to medicine over a personal life, family, friends etc. Without people like you we would never have advancements, its the truly dedicated who drive our progress. I wish that you didn't have a family all ready though, prob. would have been better for you to be married to your work. Good luck. But you do have a responsibility to your family as well as your patients. Overlooking your family because you prefer the hospital would be selfish, even if you are helping others in the process.

ps. I just walked out of a emergency thoracic aortic aneurysm repair. During the prep the patient became hypotensive. We had seen some pericardial fluid on TEE so we were pretty sure it was evolving tamponade. THe CT surgeon hollered to finish preping her, betadine was literally thrown on her and in about 20 seconds he had cracked her chest and opened the tamponade, and her BP returned to adequate. He saved her life right there. I'm glad there are those people who are willing to work hard enough to do those things. By the way, the Radiologist was the one who insisted there was a disection even when we were not convinced as the TEE didn't show one and the CT angio wasn't convincing. She was the reason the woman went to the OR today instead of tomarrow, and tamponaded on the table where she could be helped instead of in her room where she would have died. So dedicated competent physicians in EVERY specialty are needed for good patient care, even the "lifestyle" specialties. I can see the appeal of cardiac surgery to some. (Not me, medicine here)

 

[neutropenic]

I'm probably going to get more difficulty for this, but oh well...



You're stereotyping. While this may be true the majority of cases, who is to say that nothing else interests that person with that person giving each area a fair chance and beginning each rotation with interest to learn more with an open mind.
Do you not think it's possible for a person to only be interested in 1 thing?




WRONG...(at least with me)
Multiple years of summers and breaks home from college working long hours in the...

OR Assisting with Cardiac Surgery
Heart Transplant Unit
Open Heart ICU
PICU (i.e. with Congenital Heart Defect Patients)

Is that enough of "seeing a cardiosurg case" for ya?

Anybody would be barking up the wrong tree if they're trying to challenge me on experience with cardiac surgery...nuff said.




Because they have worked on the following units in addition to the above cardiac areas

ER
ICU's (SICU, MICU, CCU)
Ortho
General Peds
General Medicine
Neuroscience floor
PACU
Cardiology
Psychiatry
Kidney Transplant
there are probably others I can't remember...

I went on each floor with an open mind. I would be right with you and say a person was absolutely wrong if they had blinders on and never gave anything a chance.

I think working on these floors has given me more of an ability to know what I like, because I've pretty much seen every area of medicine.

I have to say, working on all of these floors only increased my passion for cardiac surgery. And also that I really have no other interests than cardiac surgery (more specifically the fields thereof)



I would be too.

But don't think for a second that you absolutely have to be in medical school to have this happen. Statistically speaking most people would, but that's the thing about statistics...As is the case with evidence based medicine, there are people who fall out of the statistics like me...

You all will probably laugh at this, but I could really care less.

The cardiac surgery experience I gave above is not when I realized I had the passion I do for cardiac surgery.

I've known cardiac surgery since I was 10 years old. How?

I took a dissection course and had the "Whoa, THIS is it" moment in that course.
I was interested in every organ system we did. But when I got the heart, something snapped in me. Seriously, it was like a ton of bricks hit me. It was truly a "Whoa" moment.

I had a feeling that I didn't have for any other organs. There was something here that wasn't present with any other organ. I had not just a deeper interest intellectually, but I had a passion for the heart in terms of emotionally.

Like I said, it was like a revelation (and that's coming from an person who is not religious at all, so that means something ). There was and still is a feeling that I don't want to work with the heart, I have to work with the heart.

Once again, I'm not a divine type of person, so I definitely don't believe in predestination. But I have to say, sometimes I do wonder if I wasn't meant to be this. If I wasn't born to do it.

I had a feeling that the heart is where I'm supposed to be. The heart is where I belong.

I didn't choose this passion for the heart. It chose me. It just clicked.

Surgery because I loved the dissection. And because I can't just think all the time, I have to "do".

So in my 10 year old mind back then, I put the following equation together--"heart+surgery=heart surgery"

Pediatric cardiac surgery because of how unbelievably interesting the congenital defects are. Pair this with that fact that kids are my favorite patients and it's just **** luck that they have defects, not smoking for 30 years and not taking care of themselves.



Well, that was 14 years ago (24 years old now)...I haven't changed a day since.
(the peds cardiac surgery was at age 21 to be technical)

and with all of the cardiac surgery and non cardiac surgery experience as outlined above that I have gained, my passion and love for the heart and cardiac surgery has only grown by leaps and bounds...

You're talking about a person here who if I'm bored at home or even after I work multiple 16 hour shifts in a row, just for fun, I'll spend 2-3 hours looking up stuff about cardiac surgery like congenital defects, balloon pumps, left ventricular assist devices, EKG rhythms, and mechanism of action for cardiac drugs like inotropic drugs like milrinone and digoxin.

Cardiac surgery is the only field I can do this with. You'd have to pay me to spend time looking up stuff about any other field. I don't even have the curiousity to learn about anything else. No other organ or field sparks any curiousity in me.




In summary, do not judge all as one. There are some of us who are not the stereotypical ignorant doesn't know anything about medicine before entering medical school type of person. There are some of us who actually make our viewpoints based on experiences and not a "cacophony of perceptions" as one poster called it.




and just so people don't assume again that I think I know just as much as a physican, I'm copying my last post from the other page as a disclaimer on this issue






PS

1.I am not putting down anybody who is concerned about lifestyle. I think that would be wrong. I was merely posing a question in this thred.

2.I never ever said, simply because this is stupid to think, that rads or derm or other specialties aren't as important as Laryngospasm apparently thinks. Anybody who believes this is an idiot. I think you may have me confused with somebody else who posted.

Whoa! If you're going to be a surgeon you're going to have write shorter notes. That's an internal medicine length note!

 

[Laryngospasm]

By CSG
2.I never ever said, simply because this is stupid to think, that rads or derm or other specialties aren't as important as Laryngospasm apparently thinks. Anybody who believes this is an idiot. I think you may have me confused with somebody else who posted

And also

However, still though, I can’t help thinking that if a person wants to work 40-45 hours a week during the day with very little on call and have control over when they want to work…Why the heck are these people going into medicine??


Then what was the point of asking why people who want to work 40 hours per week would go into medicine if not to portray a superior attitude? What the he ll is the point of this whole post then? Did you just want to let the rest of us know how hard working you are? Good for you.

 

[SoCuteMD]

I'm probably going to get more difficulty for this, but oh well...



You're stereotyping. While this may be true the majority of cases, who is to say that nothing else interests that person with that person giving each area a fair chance and beginning each rotation with interest to learn more with an open mind.
Do you not think it's possible for a person to only be interested in 1 thing?




WRONG...(at least with me)
Multiple years of summers and breaks home from college working long hours in the...

OR Assisting with Cardiac Surgery
Heart Transplant Unit
Open Heart ICU
PICU (i.e. with Congenital Heart Defect Patients)

Is that enough of "seeing a cardiosurg case" for ya?

Anybody would be barking up the wrong tree if they're trying to challenge me on experience with cardiac surgery...nuff said.




Because they have worked on the following units in addition to the above cardiac areas

ER
ICU's (SICU, MICU, CCU)
Ortho
General Peds
General Medicine
Neuroscience floor
PACU
Cardiology
Psychiatry
Kidney Transplant
there are probably others I can't remember...

I went on each floor with an open mind. I would be right with you and say a person was absolutely wrong if they had blinders on and never gave anything a chance.

I think working on these floors has given me more of an ability to know what I like, because I've pretty much seen every area of medicine.

I have to say, working on all of these floors only increased my passion for cardiac surgery. And also that I really have no other interests than cardiac surgery (more specifically the fields thereof)



I would be too.

But don't think for a second that you absolutely have to be in medical school to have this happen. Statistically speaking most people would, but that's the thing about statistics...As is the case with evidence based medicine, there are people who fall out of the statistics like me...

You all will probably laugh at this, but I could really care less.

The cardiac surgery experience I gave above is not when I realized I had the passion I do for cardiac surgery.

I've known cardiac surgery since I was 10 years old. How?

I took a dissection course and had the "Whoa, THIS is it" moment in that course.
I was interested in every organ system we did. But when I got the heart, something snapped in me. Seriously, it was like a ton of bricks hit me. It was truly a "Whoa" moment.

I had a feeling that I didn't have for any other organs. There was something here that wasn't present with any other organ. I had not just a deeper interest intellectually, but I had a passion for the heart in terms of emotionally.

Like I said, it was like a revelation (and that's coming from an person who is not religious at all, so that means something ). There was and still is a feeling that I don't want to work with the heart, I have to work with the heart.

Once again, I'm not a divine type of person, so I definitely don't believe in predestination. But I have to say, sometimes I do wonder if I wasn't meant to be this. If I wasn't born to do it.

I had a feeling that the heart is where I'm supposed to be. The heart is where I belong.

I didn't choose this passion for the heart. It chose me. It just clicked.

Surgery because I loved the dissection. And because I can't just think all the time, I have to "do".

So in my 10 year old mind back then, I put the following equation together--"heart+surgery=heart surgery"

Pediatric cardiac surgery because of how unbelievably interesting the congenital defects are. Pair this with that fact that kids are my favorite patients and it's just **** luck that they have defects, not smoking for 30 years and not taking care of themselves.



Well, that was 14 years ago (24 years old now)...I haven't changed a day since.
(the peds cardiac surgery was at age 21 to be technical)

and with all of the cardiac surgery and non cardiac surgery experience as outlined above that I have gained, my passion and love for the heart and cardiac surgery has only grown by leaps and bounds...

You're talking about a person here who if I'm bored at home or even after I work multiple 16 hour shifts in a row, just for fun, I'll spend 2-3 hours looking up stuff about cardiac surgery like congenital defects, balloon pumps, left ventricular assist devices, EKG rhythms, and mechanism of action for cardiac drugs like inotropic drugs like milrinone and digoxin.

Cardiac surgery is the only field I can do this with. You'd have to pay me to spend time looking up stuff about any other field. I don't even have the curiousity to learn about anything else. No other organ or field sparks any curiousity in me.




In summary, do not judge all as one. There are some of us who are not the stereotypical ignorant doesn't know anything about medicine before entering medical school type of person. There are some of us who actually make our viewpoints based on experiences and not a "cacophony of perceptions" as one poster called it.




and just so people don't assume again that I think I know just as much as a physican, I'm copying my last post from the other page as a disclaimer on this issue






PS

1.I am not putting down anybody who is concerned about lifestyle. I think that would be wrong. I was merely posing a question in this thred.

2.I never ever said, simply because this is stupid to think, that rads or derm or other specialties aren't as important as Laryngospasm apparently thinks. Anybody who believes this is an idiot. I think you may have me confused with somebody else who posted.

Wow...you told me .

Seriously, I suggest you have some fun and loosen your EAS before you start med school. You are wound so tight, you don't want to end up like this (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=3412974&postcount=6 ) person that njbmd posted about . (Yeah, I'm a b---- but I've got finals this week and I'm exhausted and cranky and don't like people who talk condescendingly to those who have more experience than they do - or even people who talk condescendingly to ANYONE.)

I think anybody who is interested in "only one thing" is probably not meant for medicine or is overstating the case. The systems are too intricately interrelated. I'm sure I'll be attacked for that, but I really don't give a crap.

Oh, and I definitely announced to my mom when I was 8 that I was going to be a doctor, so I'm not trashing those who have long-standing dreams. However, I took time to step back and reasess my goals and dreams as I matured.

 

[uhoh!]

There was and still is a feeling that I don't want to work with the heart, I have to work with the heart...
Well, that was 14 years ago (24 years old now)...I haven't changed a day since...
..You're talking about a person here who if I'm bored at home or even after I work multiple 16 hour shifts in a row, just for fun, I'll spend 2-3 hours looking up stuff about cardiac surgery like congenital defects, balloon pumps, left ventricular assist devices, EKG rhythms, and mechanism of action for cardiac drugs like inotropic drugs like milrinone and digoxin...

Dude, I applaud you! Like other posters, I too was like " This guy is full of it" when I read your first post. However, I totally get where you are coming from now..

A bit of introspection has shown me that the initial anger I felt reading your post was because of some guilt I had. I wish I could be that driven as consistently as you claim. I should be, but am not. Oh, to be young again...

I pretty much breezed through Med School with not a care, nor much of an interest. Nothing was spectacular, no field was mind-blowing. As with many schools, mine focussed on Clinical Med too..and no field had yet given me the "A-HA" moment till my final year.

Just when I was giving up on finding "The field for me", I came across Pathology. The elegance under the 'scopes, the breadth of the subject, the sheer thrill of knowing that YOU confirm the diagnosis, that YOU tie in the clinical with visual to get at the cause, all blew me away..and nothing has made me more convinced of this than now, when there is literally nothing to do till residency begins, I LOVE looking up whatever I can about the subject. No partying or relaxing seems as appealing...most of the time.

To hell with all those who tell me how to live my life! (Or you how to live yours). Just because I choose not to spend my spare time glued to a TV, or drinking myself into oblivion, doesn't mean a thing. I have fun..MY WAY! I know, when the time comes, my attitude might change, and I might acquire the maturity required to settle down, raise a family, make them a priority and make time for them as well. Till that time, however, I shall continue to work myself to the ground as much as possible. Nothing beats the rush I feel when, exhausted by a 14-hour workday, I come home, relax, and look forward to the next day in anticipation, not fear.

I do have days when I am inordinately tired, or sleepy, or just want a change of scenery. But, on any other day, I'd much rather be working than doing anything else. As anyone connected to medicine is sure to realize, any field can be gotten through with a certain minimum amount of effort. But, to be really, really good in your field, the time put in is the same, no matter which field you choose. And there is no other way to know your subject matter in Medicine other than hard work (and maybe schmoozing, but I seriously lack that talent). Intuition and talent play a much smaller part in the initial training, unlike, say, Mathematics or Physics.

I am seriously looking forward to the residency years as when I can make amends for my previous lethargy, a new beginning so to speak. Guess those "family plans" will have to wait 4 more years...Oh, well..

 

[Blade28]

To the OP - I'm also curious, what kind of assisting did you do in these CT surg cases?

I applaud your conviction and self-motivation. I also "knew" I wanted to go into surgery relatively early on (age 17), and am still pursuing that dream. But just make sure to keep an open mind as you progress through med school and residency, if only to make you a more well-rounded, complete physician.