"Good" Residencies?

[illegallysmooth]

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Hello everyone,
I've been accepted to a couple osteopathic schools, but I'm posting here because there are more people on the forum and it's about residency anyway.

In deciding where to attend, it has come to my attention that match lists should be a relatively important factor to consider. However, the problem that I am running into (as well as other students in my position), is that we simply don't know which are the best programs. Obviously, if I hear names of Ivys or historically well-known departments (i.e. Cook County for EM), then I recognize that. Beyond these names, we have no idea.

Are there any resources for looking up the "best" residencies in any given field? I realize that's a subjective judgement. I suppose what I mean are "coveted" programs.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Bitsy]

This is probably not the answer you are looking for, but I would caution you against using rank lists to help you make your decision on which medical school to attend as they really aren't that useful. Primarily because you don't know what the students were going for. Some pre-meds wrongly assume that if a match list is primary care heavy that they couldn't get anything else (anesthesia, neurosurg, whatever)...that may or may not be the case. I would concentrate on 3rd and 4th year clinical sites, especially if you are looking at osteopathic medical schools. There are several threads if you do a search that discuss this topic (usefulness of using rank lists). Good luck!

If you really want to see the most popular residencies for each field, I guess you could go through the interview threads and you might gain a sense of the more popular/esteemed residencies for each field.

 

[smq123]

Are there any resources for looking up the "best" residencies in any given field? I realize that's a subjective judgement. I suppose what I mean are "coveted" programs.

Thanks in advance.

In addition to what Bitsy said, there is no guarantee that those "coveted" programs will remain coveted in the next few years. Hospitals close, rotation sites change, and program directors/chairmen come and go.

This isn't really a topic for residents (who are the target audience of this forum). Moving to pre-osteo.

 

[AMEHigh]

Ditto previous posters. Unless you talk to all the students that have graduated from a specific school and ask if they got into 1 of their top specialties/programs, then you really can't take too much from the match list.

I would concentrate on other factors way before the match list when picking your school.

 

[illegallysmooth]

Then why the hell do people post match lists and talk about how "impressive" or "unimpressive" they are?

Oh, and I don't get the move to pre-osteo...I doubt many people here know more than me. I was shooting for some people who are not in my same exact position.

 

[DrMom]

The residency forum is for those applying to residency or in residency to discuss their training. Pre-osteo is for discussions about applying to or choosing DO schools, hence your thread belongs here. There are plenty of med students and residents who still read and respond to threads in here.

Match lists have limited usefulness in choosing a school. You want to know that the school can place their graduates into residencies, but the match lists really don't help much more than that. Choosing a specialty and where you want to apply to residency is a highly individualized issue rather than an institutional issue. Best bet is to choose the school you think you'd be happiest at for 4 years (look closely at rotations during MS3/4) and go on to be the best med student you can so that you can have a wide range of specialty and residency location options.

 

[DrMom]

The residency forum is for those applying to residency or in residency to discuss their training. Pre-osteo is for discussions about applying to or choosing DO schools, hence your thread belongs here. There are plenty of med students and residents who still read and respond to threads in here.

Match lists have limited usefulness in choosing a school. You want to know that the school can place their graduates into residencies, but the match lists really don't help much more than that. Choosing a specialty and where you want to apply to residency is a highly individualized issue rather than an institutional issue. Best bet is to choose the school you think you'd be happiest at for 4 years (look closely at rotations during MS3/4) and go on to be the best med student you can so that you can have a wide range of specialty and residency location options.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Match lists have limited usefulness in choosing a school. You want to know that the school can place their graduates into residencies, but the match lists really don't help much more than that. Choosing a specialty and where you want to apply to residency is a highly individualized issue rather than an institutional issue. Best bet is to choose the school you think you'd be happiest at for 4 years (look closely at rotations during MS3/4) and go on to be the best med student you can so that you can have a wide range of specialty and residency location options.

I agree with some of these sentiments but I also believe you can tell a lot about a school by their match list. You should first and foremost go with how you feel about a school. But all things equal, match lists can help you out. Many schools will have similar match list. If they are comparable, even if one is a bit better, then you probably wont have any benefit in going to one school over the other. However, if one is much weaker, that should tell you something.

Things to look for in an osteo match list:
1) Any matches to allopathic programs in competitive specialites: Ortho, Neurosurg, derm, ophtho, ENT, radonc, rads, and to a lesser extent anesthesia.

2) Matches in IM and peds- look specifically for well known programs.

Taking both of these into account will make sure you see almost all of the competitive candidate for a given school.

What are the schools you are looking at?

 

[illegallysmooth]

I agree with some of these sentiments but I also believe you can tell a lot about a school by their match list. You should first and foremost go with how you feel about a school. But all things equal, match lists can help you out. Many schools will have similar match list. If they are comparable, even if one is a bit better, then you probably wont have any benefit in going to one school over the other. However, if one is much weaker, that should tell you something.

Things to look for in an osteo match list:
1) Any matches to allopathic programs in competitive specialites: Ortho, Neurosurg, derm, ophtho, ENT, radonc, rads, and to a lesser extent anesthesia.

2) Matches in IM and peds- look specifically for well known programs.

Taking both of these into account will make sure you see almost all of the competitive candidate for a given school.

What are the schools you are looking at?

Ah, thanks, this is very helpful. I've been accepted to LECOM-Bradenton and CCOM. I also recently interviewed at NYCOM and I'm waiting to hear back from several schools. I'm aware that CCOM and NYCOM have better reputations than LECOM, however, tuition will be a big factor as I have a substantial amount of debt from undergrad/masters program.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Match lists are interesting and fun, but show the caliber of a student, not the school. Don't base you decision on the match list alone. If a school with a good match lists also fits into your learning style and rotations you like, then great ... otherwise, they aren't worth too much.

 

[J1515]

1) Any matches to allopathic programs in competitive specialites: Ortho, Neurosurg, derm, ophtho, ENT, radonc, rads, and to a lesser extent anesthesia.

2) Matches in IM and peds- look specifically for well known programs.

This will only tell you about an applicant, not necessarily the school. A DO student with 3 publications who scores a 99 on the USMLE is the same coming from NYCOM, CCOM, or UMDNJSOM.

 

[MSmentor018]

This will only tell you about an applicant, not necessarily the school. A DO student with 3 publications who scores a 99 on the USMLE is the same coming from NYCOM, CCOM, or UMDNJSOM.

very true, very true. I just finished the interview trail for DO and MD and I can verify that quote. I didn't even look at last years match list for my own school. the list doesn't reflect much considering students have multiple academic factors and personal reasons why they're going to a particular place for residency. if you got the background, academics, rocked the rotation, and nailed the interview.....you'll get in.

when looking at recognized names, ask yourself "why are they recognized?" research? high volume? gangland trauma? teaching faculty? location? on a hit TV show? there no best programs...every single one has something great and something bad about it. if there was a true ranking for residency programs, it'd be plastered all over SDN. good luck in school!

 

[WatchForDaEF55]

Ah, thanks, this is very helpful. I've been accepted to LECOM-Bradenton and CCOM. I also recently interviewed at NYCOM and I'm waiting to hear back from several schools. I'm aware that CCOM and NYCOM have better reputations than LECOM, however, tuition will be a big factor as I have a substantial amount of debt from undergrad/masters program.

I'd choose CCOM heh 🙂 but that's just me cause I want to go there. Sorry, everyone pretty much answered your question as best as possible.

 

[TeamZissou]

Things to look for in an osteo match list:
1) Any matches to allopathic programs in competitive specialites: Ortho, Neurosurg, derm, ophtho, ENT, radonc, rads, and to a lesser extent anesthesia.

This I disagree with. The applicants that land these positions are few and far between and thus are outliers. The real mark is what choice on their list they got and this info is not readily available. The 3rd/4th year rotations are what you should look at. Do you have the choice of community hospitals vs ones that are more academic or have residency programs? For competitive specialties does the school have a department in that area? A chair in that department? Things like this are more important.

 

[Instatewaiter]

This will only tell you about an applicant, not necessarily the school. A DO student with 3 publications who scores a 99 on the USMLE is the same coming from NYCOM, CCOM, or UMDNJSOM.

If the schools have comparable entrance stats and one consistently performs above the others, I think that tells you a lot. It would be stupid not to look and see if there is such a discrepancy.

when looking at recognized names, ask yourself "why are they recognized?" research? high volume? gangland trauma? teaching faculty? location? on a hit TV show? there no best programs...every single one has something great and something bad about it. if there was a true ranking for residency programs, it'd be plastered all over SDN. good luck in school!

Like it or not, there generally is a very clear hierarchy of residency programs. Speaking from the internal medicine perspective (what I am going to), the best programs are the strongest in volume, research, teaching faculty AND clinical training. For instance, Hopkins not only has obscene amts of research going on, the best reputation arguably in the world and well known faculty but their clinical training is also known to be one of the most rigorous in the country. The only programs that can even compare are places like MGH, Duke and Southwestern... also those programas that would be in that top tier.

The real mark is what choice on their list they got and this info is not readily available.

The 3rd/4th year rotations are what you should look at. Do you have the choice of community hospitals vs ones that are more academic or have residency programs? For competitive specialties does the school have a department in that area? A chair in that department? Things like this are more important.

The number choice they got doesn't tell you as much about the school but more about the advising and more about the type of specialties they try for. If the advising is crappy the student will shoot out of their league. If more students try to go into a competitive specialty that will also mess up the list. Getting Derm yet getting your 20th choice is much more impressive than going for FM and getting your first.

I completely agree that 3rd and 4th year rotation are what you should look at first, as well as location, tuition, general fit and type of curriculum first and second year. However if completely unsure, match lists could help.

 

[J1515]

If the schools have comparable entrance stats and one consistently performs above the others, I think that tells you a lot. It would be stupid not to look and see if there is such a discrepancy.

Schools don't perform. That's where your mistake in thinking is. If NYCOM matches more people into ortho than VCOM 3 years in a row, it's either because more people from NYCOM applied ortho or those students who matched had higher board scores, grades, more publications than the applicants from VCOM.

Matchlists don't tell you anything unless you know how many people applied for a specific specialty and how many got it. I know when you're applying for residency it gives you that warm and cuddly feeling looking at last year's matchlist and seeing people who matched at the place you want to go, but in reality you are the one who is getting accepted - not last year's class and not your school's name.

 

[scpod]

....Getting Derm yet getting your 20th choice is much more impressive than going for FM and getting your first....

Maybe if you are a Derm snob. It tells me that you failed 19 times before you got it right.

 

[illegallysmooth]

Schools don't perform. That's where your mistake in thinking is. If NYCOM matches more people into ortho than VCOM 3 years in a row, it's either because more people from NYCOM applied ortho or those students who matched had higher board scores, grades, more publications than the applicants from VCOM.

Matchlists don't tell you anything unless you know how many people applied for a specific specialty and how many got it. I know when you're applying for residency it gives you that warm and cuddly feeling looking at last year's matchlist and seeing people who matched at the place you want to go, but in reality you are the one who is getting accepted - not last year's class and not your school's name.

Could that not reflect better preparation from the school?

That seems to be the central argument here. I would say that if 30% more students from school X have higher board scores, grades and publications, there's some credit due to the school in addition to the individual students.

 

[J1515]

Could that not reflect better preparation from the school?

That seems to be the central argument here. I would say that if 30% more students from school X have higher board scores, grades and publications, there's some credit due to the school in addition to the individual students.

No. All the schools will prepare you (with the exception of PBL schools). There is a standard curriculum that all DO and MD schools have and the majority of the schools even use the same textbooks. School X's biochem professor might be a better lecturer than School Y's, but G6PD deficiency is the same regardless of where you are. This isn't college where you are spoon fed information, memorize it, and then regurgitate it on a test. It's your job as a med student to look up concepts you don't completely grasp. If a lecturer mentions the definition of Porphyria only briefly, it's your job to go to a textbook and look up how to make the diagnosis, what the treatment is, and what other conditions it's associated with. Once you are in medical school, your education is in your own hands.

 

[illegallysmooth]

No. All the schools will prepare you (with the exception of PBL schools). There is a standard curriculum that all DO and MD schools have and the majority of the schools even use the same textbooks. School X's biochem professor might be a better lecturer than School Y's, but G6PD deficiency is the same regardless of where you are. This isn't college where you are spoon fed information, memorize it, and then regurgitate it on a test. It's your job as a med student to look up concepts you don't completely grasp. If a lecturer mentions the definition of Porphyria only briefly, it's your job to go to a textbook and look up how to make the diagnosis, what the treatment is, and what other conditions it's associated with. Once you are in medical school, your education is in your own hands.

Yeah, I understand individual responsibility.

But in response to your quote about PBL schools, I can't tell if you're knocking the curriculum or simply underscoring the personal responsibility, but to an extreme degree. In either case, I don't agree. In PBL, YOU are responsible for learning and the textbooks are your primary source (as opposed to lecturers), however I would not go so far as to say the school does not prepare you. Obviously the school gives you the problem in problem based learning and therefore directs you. You aren't lost in the woods without a compass.

Regardless, this thread isn't about PBL. It's about any school's role in your residency success. I think some schools are better at educating, nurturing and directing their students and therefore they do better on boards, perform better in rotations and have more success in the match. You seem to be saying the school you go to does not matter AT ALL, in which case everyone should make the decision on where to attend soley based on climate and tuition. That, to me, seems a bit extreme.

 

[scpod]

.... You seem to be saying the school you go to does not matter AT ALL....

I tend to agree. If you are a motivated student who works hard and is willing to do what it takes.... then where you go will not make much of a difference. If, however, you want to sit around being hand-held and depend on others to show you where to go and what to do.... then it might make a difference. Some schools just aren't gonna do that for you.

IMHO, a good student could go to ANY osteopathic school and get the same results.

 

[illegallysmooth]

I tend to agree. If you are a motivated student who works hard and is willing to do what it takes.... then where you go will not make much of a difference. If, however, you want to sit around being hand-held and depend on others to show you where to go and what to do.... then it might make a difference. Some schools just aren't gonna do that for you.

IMHO, a good student could go to ANY osteopathic school and get the same results.

The way you said this, I would agree. Looking beyond one individual student to an entire class, though, would you say some schools are better than others in regard to preparation for boards, rotations and residency?

 

[Laryngophed]

Yeah, I understand individual responsibility.

But in response to your quote about PBL schools, I can't tell if you're knocking the curriculum or simply underscoring the personal responsibility, but to an extreme degree. In either case, I don't agree. In PBL, YOU are responsible for learning and the textbooks are your primary source (as opposed to lecturers), however I would not go so far as to say the school does not prepare you. Obviously the school gives you the problem in problem based learning and therefore directs you. You aren't lost in the woods without a compass.

Regardless, this thread isn't about PBL. It's about any school's role in your residency success. I think some schools are better at educating, nurturing and directing their students and therefore they do better on boards, perform better in rotations and have more success in the match. You seem to be saying the school you go to does not matter AT ALL, in which case everyone should make the decision on where to attend soley based on climate and tuition. That, to me, seems a bit extreme.

If I may speak for J1515, the reason he excluded PBL curricula is that the onus falls almost enirely on the student and/or small groups. In a "traditional" curriculum, the faculty guides the students through all the necessary concepts whereas a PBL curriculum relies on students to identify and these concepts on their own.

I could be wrong, but that's my guess.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Schools don't perform. That's where your mistake in thinking is. If NYCOM matches more people into ortho than VCOM 3 years in a row, it's either because more people from NYCOM applied ortho or those students who matched had higher board scores, grades, more publications than the applicants from VCOM.

Matchlists don't tell you anything unless you know how many people applied for a specific specialty and how many got it. I know when you're applying for residency it gives you that warm and cuddly feeling looking at last year's matchlist and seeing people who matched at the place you want to go, but in reality you are the one who is getting accepted - not last year's class and not your school's name.

If you take a single specialty, sure basically nothing can be gleaned from a match list. However, when taken as a whole, including matches to non-competitive programs you can tell how a school prepares its students.

If schools X and Y are the same size with similar entrance stats and school X sends 10 people into competitive specialties and 10 more into good programs in non-competitive specialties and school Y sends 5 to competitivce specialties and 5 to good programs in noncompetitive specialties I think you are going to be hard pressed to say that school Y is as good of a school X or prepares its students the same.

 

[illegallysmooth]

If I may speak for J1515, the reason he excluded PBL curricula is that the onus falls almost enirely on the student and/or small groups. In a "traditional" curriculum, the faculty guides the students through all the necessary concepts whereas a PBL curriculum relies on students to identify and these concepts on their own.

I could be wrong, but that's my guess.

Ok, that makes sense of course. But...again, I think some schools probably do PBL better than others. There are many variations. Some are probably more effective than others.

In any of my posts, I'm not underestimating the amount of personal/individual effort and responsibility for medical education. But I AM recognizing that differences exist in the curricula, faculty, resources etc. between schools and that these differences can amount to variations in success on boards, rotations and for residency.

 

[scpod]

....would you say some schools are better than others in regard to preparation for boards, rotations and residency?

I think some schools are more helpful than others when it comes to board prep, oraganizing rotations, and helping you through the process of applying for residencies. Some of them do a lot more for you.... but there are costs involved in that. Providing board prep for students isn't free. Hiring extra people to make your life easier isn't free. But, I don't really think the quality of the education is all that much different. You learn the same materials in the first two years, albeit in different ways sometimes. And, I don't think any school has a rotation system that is so horrible that you can't learn the basics of clinical medicine from them. You'll learn thee rest of what you need in residency.

 

[TexasPhysician]

If you take a single specialty, sure basically nothing can be gleaned from a match list. However, when taken as a whole, including matches to non-competitive programs you can tell how a school prepares its students.

If schools X and Y are the same size with similar entrance stats and school X sends 10 people into competitive specialties and 10 more into good programs in non-competitive specialties and school Y sends 5 to competitivce specialties and 5 to good programs in noncompetitive specialties I think you are going to be hard pressed to say that school Y is as good of a school X or prepares its students the same.

It still DOES NOT work like this. Residency isn't about being competitive to most people anymore. Patients don't research whether their family doc trained at Harvard or Podunk State. MOST students choose a residency based on location, spouse, training goals, etc. Few people choose based on name of the program.

I've know people graduate with honors at a top med school with board scores you've never heard of - he got his first choice FM program at a program you've never heard of but his family lives right down the road.

I also know someone graduate at the bottom of their class with less than stellar board scores match in a surgical subspecialty at an Ivy program.

Sure those are only 2 examples, but it happens all the time.

The only information you get from a match list is where each INDIVIDUAL student chose to go for residency.

 

[illegallysmooth]

It still DOES NOT work like this. Residency isn't about being competitive to most people anymore. Patients don't research whether their family doc trained at Harvard or Podunk State. MOST students choose a residency based on location, spouse, training goals, etc. Few people choose based on name of the program.

I've know people graduate with honors at a top med school with board scores you've never heard of - he got his first choice FM program at a program you've never heard of but his family lives right down the road.

I also know someone graduate at the bottom of their class with less than stellar board scores match in a surgical subspecialty at an Ivy program.

Sure those are only 2 examples, but it happens all the time.

The only information you get from a match list is where each INDIVIDUAL student chose to go for residency.

Hm, this is a good point. Thank you for adding.

I know someone who was PA in an ER for about 8 years, went to LECOM-E and received recognition for being in the 99th percentile for Step 2 on the USMLE, and did NOT match into the UB emergency med program (after living his whole life in Buffalo and making his commitment to the area quite clear), and ended up in a Buffalo osteopathic primary care residency, which he absolutely hates and only agreed to because of lack of options in Buffalo.

Why did he not match into this program? Obviously, I don't know, but it might have something to do with the fact that he's the most arrogant, narcissistic, deplorable bastard I've ever met and I'm sure that seeped out a little bit during his interview.

 

[J1515]

You seem to be saying the school you go to does not matter AT ALL, in which case everyone should make the decision on where to attend soley based on climate and tuition. That, to me, seems a bit extreme.

As someone who has already been through the process (in the DO world), yes this is exactly what I'm saying. It's a difficult concept for pre-meds to believe, but there is no hierachy or rank list in the DO world. The only thing a specific school MAY do is if you are a borderline applicant with borderline scores, and the residency has accepted people from your school in the past with good experiences, they might grant you the interview to get your foot in the door. Otherwise I do not hesitate in saying that every traditional lecture based curriculum in DO schools (as well as MD schools) will prepare you the same.

 

[J1515]

If I may speak for J1515, the reason he excluded PBL curricula is that the onus falls almost enirely on the student and/or small groups. In a "traditional" curriculum, the faculty guides the students through all the necessary concepts whereas a PBL curriculum relies on students to identify and these concepts on their own.

I could be wrong, but that's my guess.

👍

I didn't personally experience PBL so I cannot comment on how well it prepares you. I wasn't implying it doesn't prepare you...I just can't speak from experience and therefore won't comment on it.

 

[illegallysmooth]

As someone who has already been through the process (in the DO world), yes this is exactly what I'm saying.

Ah. This is actually quite compelling for me. You've just helped me immensely. Thanks 🙂

 

[Instatewaiter]

It still DOES NOT work like this. Residency isn't about being competitive to most people anymore. Patients don't research whether their family doc trained at Harvard or Podunk State. MOST students choose a residency based on location, spouse, training goals, etc. Few people choose based on name of the program.

I also know someone graduate at the bottom of their class with less than stellar board scores match in a surgical subspecialty at an Ivy program.

Again, on an individual scale, a person may not choose to go to a well known program. But when you have well over 100 people in a class, those few abberations are averaged out. So you with multiple data points like a match list (or multiple years) you can draw conclusions when the match lists differ significantly.

If you have a bunch of people going into less competitive programs like peds or IM, that will show up as more impressive matches in those programs.

I'm calling BS on your little vignette about the person from the bottom of the class with crappy scores who matched into an IVY program (unless it was an affiliate)

 

[J1515]

If you have a bunch of people going into less competitive programs like peds or IM, that will show up as more impressive matches in those programs.

What if this is a function of the school accepting lower caliber students or less academically qualified students (and thus scoring lower on the USMLE) rather than the quality of the education at the school or the school name itself? There are way too many variables for a matchlist to be meaningful.

 

[MSmentor018]

Like it or not, there generally is a very clear hierarchy of residency programs. Speaking from the internal medicine perspective (what I am going to), the best programs are the strongest in volume, research, teaching faculty AND clinical training. For instance, Hopkins not only has obscene amts of research going on, the best reputation arguably in the world and well known faculty but their clinical training is also known to be one of the most rigorous in the country. The only programs that can even compare are places like MGH, Duke and Southwestern... also those programas that would be in that top tier.

I get what your saying but I disagree on that one, hierarchy is in the eye of the beholder. there's no doubt you need volume, research/academic exposure, of course faculty that is willing to teach to give you the clinical training to excel...but that's in any program. hospitals/programs places an emphasis on a niche that made them prestigious, whether it's $$$ in research, or multi-million dollar machines, international medicine, recruiting staff/clinicans to use those machines....etc. (or all the above). the more you can show, the more people get interested, the more selective you can be in choosing applicants. would one say the "hopkins way" is better than wash u, harvard, Univ Maryland, VCU, MD anderson, shriners. maybe, maybe not. what's rigorous? doing 95 hrs/wk but only logging in 80? intern inservice exam passing is 78? call q3? must be able to get a grant for the program before graduation? it's all perception.....

 

[J1515]

it's all perception.....

Exactly. In some programs the chief residents for the year play a huge role in just how educational your experience is, just as when you're a student your education depends on which resident or attending you get assigned to. Chiefs switch yearly of course.

When you're a pre-med you constantly want to be the best in everyone else's eyes. You dream of going to JHU even though you know nothing about the school, getting the highest MCAT, doing the most research, getting A's in everything. By the time you hit 4th year of medical school hopefully you've matured a bit and realized that there is no such thing as best anything and you start to not care what everyone else thinks. It's different for everyone. I've got news for you. While JHU and Harvard are well known names, I wouldn't have gone to either place for residency.

 

[Instatewaiter]

What if this is a function of the school accepting lower caliber students or less academically qualified students (and thus scoring lower on the USMLE) rather than the quality of the education at the school or the school name itself? There are way too many variables for a matchlist to be meaningful.

And that is why my posts said, "given similar entrance stats." That should control for lower caliber students at one school.

the more you can show, the more people get interested, the more selective you can be in choosing applicants. would one say the "hopkins way" is better than wash u, harvard, Univ Maryland, VCU, MD anderson, shriners. maybe, maybe not. what's rigorous? doing 95 hrs/wk but only logging in 80? intern inservice exam passing is 78? call q3? must be able to get a grant for the program before graduation? it's all perception.....

Having interviewed at Hopkins and the Harvards for residency as well as maryland and VCU, I can tell you without a doubt that programs like Hopkins (or wash U) in that upper tier offer many more opportunities during residency in basically every category than a program like VCU doesn't. Both VCU and Maryland would be considered at the top of the 2nd tier and excellent programs programs for IM (well above average) yet still do not offer the same experience. Both will train you well, but just not the same.

Furthermore, there are multiple programs within that upper tier that do not have that hopkins or MGH feel and have a more relaxed approach. Places like Hopkins bayview or Penn come to mind. So if a student is competitive enough to get into a given tier of programs, they will be able to find something to their liking within that tier. That will show up in the match list. Whether they match to MGH or Penn or Bayview, it is still a notable match.

When you're a pre-med you constantly want to be the best in everyone else's eyes. You dream of going to JHU even though you know nothing about the school, getting the highest MCAT, doing the most research, getting A's in everything. By the time you hit 4th year of medical school hopefully you've matured a bit and realized that there is no such thing as best anything and you start to not care what everyone else thinks. It's different for everyone. I've got news for you. While JHU and Harvard are well known names, I wouldn't have gone to either place for residency.

And I'm sure you're making this claim after having visited both programs and are not going off just what you have heard about the programs. I can tell you that some of these reputations for malignancy are undeserved and are from what the program was over a decade ago.

 

[MSmentor018]

VCU and Maryland would be considered at the top of the 2nd tier and excellent programs programs for IM (well above average) yet still do not offer the same experience. Both will train you well, but just not the same.

Furthermore, there are multiple programs within that upper tier that do not have that hopkins or MGH feel and have a more relaxed approach. Places like Hopkins bayview or Penn come to mind. So if a student is competitive enough to get into a given tier of programs, they will be able to find something to their liking within that tier. That will show up in the match list. Whether they match to MGH or Penn or Bayview, it is still a notable match.

I'd expand your quote and say most will train you well and not the the same. the approach and feel is personal dependent and with that being said, diff with each institution, regardless of what tier their placed in. every residency offers a niche of sorts, what opportunities do you think you'll get at the "higher tiers"?

 

[TexasPhysician]

Again, on an individual scale, a person may not choose to go to a well known program. But when you have well over 100 people in a class, those few abberations are averaged out. So you with multiple data points like a match list (or multiple years) you can draw conclusions when the match lists differ significantly.

If you have a bunch of people going into less competitive programs like peds or IM, that will show up as more impressive matches in those programs.

I'm calling BS on your little vignette about the person from the bottom of the class with crappy scores who matched into an IVY program (unless it was an affiliate)

Believe what you want, but it is not a few abberations. At least 10% of my class could match at a "name programs" in their respective fields, but will choose to stay in-state near family/friends......I'm just talking about the 10% I'm 100% positive on. My roommate is AOA with 240+ scores and will match in-state peds to be near sisters/brother. I very well may end up doing the same.

Unless you plan on a life of academics/research, your program's name won't do much for you in residency. Private practice docs don't get asked where they did residency.

 

[J1515]

And I'm sure you're making this claim after having visited both programs and are not going off just what you have heard about the programs. I can tell you that some of these reputations for malignancy are undeserved and are from what the program was over a decade ago.

I didn't even apply to either program. I didn't mention anything about malignancy. I had more important criteria in selecting a residency.

 

[howard100]

oK, I stared to read this thread; but my god, I have to get back to to pathology. I say this in all sincerity: pre-med people are crazy. I was too. The real world of medicine relies much more on personal abilities than on absolute academic skill. Please pick a med school that you feel happy at. I'm at LECOM-B. There are many smart people here. You will find this at any med school. A match list only relflects the interests of the current class. I'm an 'A' student who scored very well on MCATs and I want to do family practice because I want that lifestyle. Will I change my mind? Maybe. But don't listen to ANYONE who hasnt done 3rd and 4th year. Experience.

 

[Anna L]

Why don't you ask for advice your teachers?

 

[Instatewaiter]

Believe what you want, but it is not a few abberations. At least 10% of my class could match at a "name programs" in their respective fields, but will choose to stay in-state near family/friends......I'm just talking about the 10% I'm 100% positive on. My roommate is AOA with 240+ scores and will match in-state peds to be near sisters/brother. I very well may end up doing the same.

Unless you plan on a life of academics/research, your program's name won't do much for you in residency. Private practice docs don't get asked where they did residency.

Every school has a similar proportion of superstars who make that choice. So, that is basically controlled for in a list since so there are many people on it.

so again, taken as a whole a match list will help you compare schools.

 

[MSmentor018]

so again, taken as a whole a match list will help you compare schools.

so with that logic, you should choose a residency based on where the residents came from....think I'll pass on that one

 

[Instatewaiter]

Every school has a similar proportion of superstars who make that choice. So, that is basically controlled for in a list since so there are many people on it.

so again, taken as a whole a match list will help you compare schools.

so with that logic, you should choose a residency based on where the residents came from....think I'll pass on that one

No. Your logic isn't sound. Because there are over 150 schools and every school has a few good matches, you see pretty good diversity in residency programs. Remember there are like 1000 different residency program in the country. When you get to the point where you actually go look at residencies, you will see that most programs are pretty diverse. Even the top tier programs have students from 40 or 50 different schools. Funny enough, in my experience, the residencies that were the least diverse were also the worst programs.

My entire point in this thread is if the students going into the schools are equal (stats) yet the students coming out are not (matches), something in the actual school has got to be that driving force. Is it board prep, or reputation or opportunities for research or what? I don't think anyone can say. What they can say is that those coming out of one school do better than another. That is why looking at match lists can be helpful. That said, most premeds and even first/second years cannot look at a match list and tell what a strong list is.

I agree things like tuition, location and fit should take precedence, but if two programs are equal in an applicant's mind, match list is an adequate metric to use.

 

[scpod]

....That said, most premeds and even first/second years cannot look at a match list and tell what a strong list is....

I would argue that most 3rd and 4th year students, and even residents, can't tell you much about how strong a matchlist is-- except within their own chosen specialty. I'm doing IM and all I know about is IM. I couldn't tell you who has a good program in Peds, Gas, OB.... anything really. I don't even care. I couldn't look at a matchlist, outside of IM, and tell you much at all. That's really why I think they are useless. I know better than to assume a program of one type is good just because it's at a hospital that I recognise. How on Earth could I expect a premed to know anything when they don't even know what specialty they will choose yet?

 

[TexasPhysician]

I would argue that most 3rd and 4th year students, and even residents, can't tell you much about how strong a matchlist is-- except within their own chosen specialty. I'm doing IM and all I know about is IM. I couldn't tell you who has a good program in Peds, Gas, OB.... anything really. I don't even care. I couldn't look at a matchlist, outside of IM, and tell you much at all. That's really why I think they are useless. I know better than to assume a program of one type is good just because it's at a hospital that I recognise. How on Earth could I expect a premed to know anything when they don't even know what specialty they will choose yet?

Very good point.

Coming from a current 4th year that is about to match, it is impossible to know which programs are good until you actually get out there and experience at least an interview. I've interviewed at programs at Top-10 med schools that I won't even put on my rank list.....they are that bad. On a match list, it probably looks fantastic to a pre-med, but I would probably quit rather than end up there.

Never choose a med school based on a match list.

 

[MSmentor018]

Funny enough, in my experience, the residencies that were the least diverse were also the worst programs.

yeah I've noticed that too....all the residents were from the same school and ended up working in the same area/part of the country. a total red flag.