good schools for surgery?

[kate_g]

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Any opinions on the best schools for surgery? I understand that actually specializing in surgery requires a residency, but I want to know whether people think any of the DVM programs are better in terms of the breadth and depth of surgical techniques taught, quality of facilities, and how soon I get my hands on a scalpel. I don't have direct access to a pre-vet club or program, so I'd appreciate hearing the common wisdom. Or current students with a strong interest in surgery, tell me what you think of your program...? Thanks!


-Kate

 

[Bullettime]

Woah....you need to do residency if you want to practice surgery?
Does that apply to anywhere? I plan on studying vet sci in australia. So i'd have to do a year or 2 of residency before i can perform surgery?

 

[kate_g]

No, no, sorry... I just mean to be a board-certified specialist in surgery you have to do a residency. Or maybe it's just that no practice in their right mind would hire someone as a specialist surgeon who had not done a residency. But I think you can do spay/neuter and standard stuff like that at a regular practice without a surgical residency.

 

[julieDVM]

Any opinions on the best schools for surgery? I understand that actually specializing in surgery requires a residency, but I want to know whether people think any of the DVM programs are better in terms of the breadth and depth of surgical techniques taught, quality of facilities, and how soon I get my hands on a scalpel. I don't have direct access to a pre-vet club or program, so I'd appreciate hearing the common wisdom. Or current students with a strong interest in surgery, tell me what you think of your program...? Thanks!


-Kate

I have found through my teaching experience, students trained in Britan, Dublin, and Australia seem to be exceptional and have excellent surgical skills - more so than the American trained students i've dealt with. It would appear that the surgical training at these universities is outstanding.

 

[chickenboo]

I don't know anything about their program, but for pure practical experience, Missouri gives you 2 years in clinics instead of 1 like most programs. I think Western also gives you 2 years in clinics, and Cornell gives you 1-1/2. Whether that translates into more surgery time probably depends on how many surgery electives you can take. You might also want to look at the surgery courses students have to take--for example, at Davis, you get a full year of surgery lab your third year...I *think* you end up doing 1 neuter and 2 spays every quarter (3 neuters/6 spays in all). I don't know if this is the case at all schools, or especially at schools in which you have more time in clinics. In other words, if you spend more time in clinics, maybe you don't get to spend as much being "taught" surgery in a classroom/lab setting. I don't know if that's necessarily true, though! If it is, though, you might want to think about what type of experience you want to get.

 

[HorseyVet]

To a degree the opportunites are there at most schools if you look for them. Often you can do an elective at an animal shelter where you can do spay/neuters untill your hands fall off. For more advanced surgeries you'll probably need a residency/intership to become competent, although some electives, as mentioned, may give you more experience. If you don't want a residency you can learn to do somethings if the practice you go to has someone to teach you. Just be upfront that it is your goal to be trained further. Again, some surgeries do pretty much require board certification.

Often you get to do more things after you demonstrate that you are competent at the basics. So, when you get to school, just try to buddy up with the surgery staff and try to get included in watching as many surgeries as possible and eventually they'll often give you more responsibility.

 

[wishes]

I second what HorseyVet says about seeking out surgery opportunities while in veterinary school. I cannot vouch for foreign programs, but I can say in visiting veterinary schools all over this year that I was very surprised by the lack of designated surgery time in their curriculums.
In many cases your surgical experience at graduation will consist only of a spay and a neuter, unless you seek opportunities outside of class. Fortunately, there are many such opportunities, especially for spays and neuters, through organizations like the Humane Society and Rural Area Veterinary Services (RAVS).
Schools with flexible curriculums many allow student to take lots of surgery electives, although I think more and more individuals with an interest in surgery are pursuing at least an internship, if not a residency, after veterinary school.
Of interest, in checking out veterinary schools during the interview process, I found out the Mississippi State University is one the few, or perhaps the only, veterinary schools that allows students to get some surgical experience starting in their second year so you might check out Mississippi if you are interested in getting extra practice with surgery.

 

[kate_g]

students trained in Britan, Dublin, and Australia seem to be exceptional and have excellent surgical skills
[...]
It would appear that the surgical training at these universities is outstanding.

I read a post by an American at one of the Scottish schools that said the actual program is almost entirely classrom instruction, and you get your practical experience with mandatory externship-type things throughout the year that you have to arrange completely on your own.

Can anyone back that up or correct me? Anyone in an Australian program, is the same thing true there?

 

[kate_g]

In many cases your surgical experience at graduation will consist only of a spay and a neuter, unless you seek opportunities outside of class.

Wow. So... If I want to do the fun stuff like orthopedics, endoscopic procedures, organ transplants, even a plain old laparotomy... Those are things you don't generally learn until internship/residency?

Anybody else out there had luck getting anyone to let you learn or even watch that kind of stuff? Is an externship at a good referral hospital the best bet?

 

[HorseyVet]

Wow. So... If I want to do the fun stuff like orthopedics, endoscopic procedures, organ transplants, even a plain old laparotomy... Those are things you don't generally learn until internship/residency?

Anybody else out there had luck getting anyone to let you learn or even watch that kind of stuff? Is an externship at a good referral hospital the best bet?

Watching usually isn't a problem. I've seen about a million TPLOs. Just find someone doing the procedures and ask nicely.

Organ transplants...I'm assuming you might be referring to the kidney transplants for cats. I don't know anyone who does these, but that's a HUGE ethical quagmire, both from the animal you harvesting and the one you are transplanting to.

I haven't seen laproscopy performed on animals for veterinary purposes, only for human medicine on pigs and calves. I'm not sure who or for what they use them for animals. The idea is that the procedure is less invasive, which is important for human patients which healthcare wants out of the hospital ASAP. For animals that can be fairly easily and inexpensively monitored in a cage/stall environment I'm not sure if the cost of the equipment validates it, but I'm sure someone does it for something.

But yeah....you'd need a residency...In reality you don't know much getting out of vet school. Part of the reason for this is that technology and pharmacology has advanced considerably and there is simply a huge amount of material to learn relative to even 10 years ago.

 

[chris03333]

laparotomies are performed (it just means abdominal surgery). laparoscopy can be used also.

 

[PAThbrd]

Organ transplants...I'm assuming you might be referring to the kidney transplants for cats. I don't know anyone who does these, but that's a HUGE ethical quagmire, both from the animal you harvesting and the one you are transplanting to.

University of Pennsylvania does the kidney transplants. They take one kidney from the donor, place it in the recipient and the owner of the recipient must adopt the donor as part of the agreement. So two cats for the price of surgery!

 

[kate_g]

Hm. I had assumed - perhaps arrogantly, since I come from an academic research background - that university hospitals have all the cutting-edge procedures. And that just like with human medicine, different schools would specialize to some extent in different things. *And* that going to the "right" school would mean getting to do the cool stuff early.

I figured that at any school the "small animal surgery" classes would be a little more varied than spay and neuter. I gotta say I'm disappointed that I'd graduate unprepared to even treat a dog with GDV, or remove a bowel obstruction or a tumor, or... I dunno, just about anything. 😡

I guess newly-graduated human doctors don't get to do those things either, so it does make some sense...

Well, thanks everyone for the input. Please, if there's anyone out there who can contradict any of this (and thereby cheer me up immensely), do!

 

[chickenboo]

The more "fun" surgeries used to be taught at vet schools, but usually they were terminal surgeries. A while back, some vet students started questioning the ethics of terminal surgeries, so now I don't think any (?? correct me if I'm wrong!) schools have any terminal surgeries as part of their core curriculum. I believe some still offer a surgery course with terminal surgeries as an elective, but I think even those are becoming few and far between.

However, university hospitals DO have the cutting-edge procedures and I think to some extent (but probably not as much as in human med), different schools/hospitals are known for different "specialties." I just don't think that necessarily translates into providing earlier hands-on training in that area for students.

 

[julieDVM]

Hm. I had assumed - perhaps arrogantly, since I come from an academic research background - that university hospitals have all the cutting-edge procedures. And that just like with human medicine, different schools would specialize to some extent in different things. *And* that going to the "right" school would mean getting to do the cool stuff early.

I figured that at any school the "small animal surgery" classes would be a little more varied than spay and neuter. I gotta say I'm disappointed that I'd graduate unprepared to even treat a dog with GDV, or remove a bowel obstruction or a tumor, or... I dunno, just about anything. 😡

I guess newly-graduated human doctors don't get to do those things either, so it does make some sense...

Well, thanks everyone for the input. Please, if there's anyone out there who can contradict any of this (and thereby cheer me up immensely), do!

Other than spays and castrations, students rarely get to perform more complicated procedures. Orthopedics, complicated GIT surgery etc. is left to residents to perform; for a number of reasons, one of which is we need to do these surgeries in order to get our ACVS qualifications.

as for training in UK schools, i believe it is the mandatory extramural work that solidifies these student's basic surgical skills. When i said that their training was good, i meant that they had good basic skills - not skills in advanced orthopedic or soft tissue procedures. I cant comment on their methods of teaching, only that when they came into the hospital, their skills impressed me greatly.

Most people here are correct in stating that a lot of your surgical experience will be gained as a post-grad. If you decide to pursue a residency then you will get formal training, if not, you need to find a GP that has been practicing for a number of years and just scrub-in and learn by doing... Although the technique of surgery is very much learned by practicing, you can gain A LOT of experience by observing - learning the theory etc.

I wouldn't worry so much as to what undergrad school you get your vet degree from - i think all the schools in the US are pretty equivalent in terms of the level of education you receive.

 

[julieDVM]

incidentally, i think organ transplants in domestic animals are completely ridiculous.

 

[chickenboo]

incidentally, i think organ transplants in domestic animals are completely ridiculous.

hear, hear!

 

[HorseyVet]

incidentally, i think organ transplants in domestic animals are completely ridiculous.

lol...that's what I was sort of getting at w/o being outwright with it.

In the majority of cases that get to that point the age and health of the animal make it no longer a good prospect for surgery and doing the surgery could almost be considered cruel.

It's like doing total hips on 15 year old dogs or colics on 30 year old horses. Sure it can be done. Sure some will be healthy enough to get off the table but are you doing this for poochie or for yourself.

 

[kate_g]

The more "fun" surgeries used to be taught at vet schools, but usually they were terminal surgeries.

Funny, I wouldn't think the training surgeries would have to be terminal. For instance, you learn to do surgeries as an intern or resident on owned animals - and you can bet the owner doesn't expect it to be terminal! I wonder why it's not common to have 3rd or 4th year students learn to do surgery (under supervision) on owned animals that have been brought for treatment to the university hospital. And as we've already discussed, the new graduate doesn't actually have any more surgical experience than the student. Maybe it's all perception. That diploma makes you a "real" doctor, and owners are more comfortable with that. Or maybe it's just time. There's enough other stuff to learn as a student, so it just turns out that the internship/residency programs are essentially what I was hoping would be included in the regular four years of school.

 

[HorseyVet]

Funny, I wouldn't think the training surgeries would have to be terminal. QUOTE]

My vet said they used get an animal (usually a dog), and you would spay or neuter it (then allow it to recover), then remove the spleen (again, recover), maybe also the gallbladder aswell, then you would break a leg and repair it but they would be terminal after breaking the leg b/c healing from that surgery is painful.

In his opinion, and mine...it is a valuble experience, especially b/c you are in charge of the animal while it is recovering and you sort of get a fundamental kick in the pants about what you are and will be doing when you see that is has problems.

What was stupid about that, and what likely pissed people off, was that they'd have to use those research grade beagles rather than shelter animals. I'm not saying one life is better than another, but it is senseless to breed an animal for those purposes when thousands die for no purpose in shelters.

 

[chris03333]

Funny, I wouldn't think the training surgeries would have to be terminal. For instance, you learn to do surgeries as an intern or resident on owned animals - and you can bet the owner doesn't expect it to be terminal! I wonder why it's not common to have 3rd or 4th year students learn to do surgery (under supervision) on owned animals that have been brought for treatment to the university hospital. And as we've already discussed, the new graduate doesn't actually have any more surgical experience than the student. Maybe it's all perception. That diploma makes you a "real" doctor, and owners are more comfortable with that. Or maybe it's just time. There's enough other stuff to learn as a student, so it just turns out that the internship/residency programs are essentially what I was hoping would be included in the regular four years of school.

I have done many surgeries on owned animals in my rotations so far (I am in 3rd year). Not all spays/neuters either. I have done mass removals, enucleated a cow's eye, a LDA right flank omentopexy, medial patellar luxation repair, did parts of TPLO, parts of foreign body removal gastrotomy (1 horse, 1 lab) just to name a few. BUT I go to Western so my rotations are not in a University teaching hospital (we do not have one) so some of my rotations have no interns/residents so that leaves you as the student and the training vet.

 

[kate_g]

I go to Western so my rotations are not in a University teaching hospital (we do not have one)

I'm in CA now, and had been considering Davis my main option - again academic snobbery, somehow the first time I looked at Western it didn't register as a "real" university, maybe just because the program is so new and the website is kind of new-agey. But I've seen loads of posts from people who are happy to be there, and even (gasp) chose it over other acceptances.

What do you think of it so far? I guess you go there and not elsewhere so it's going to be hard to say, but what do you think of the quality of the students and instructors? Are your rotations at private practices in the area? Is there any weirdness with the newness of the program, ironing out the curriculum or how classes are taught or anything?

 

[chris03333]

I'm in CA now, and had been considering Davis my main option - again academic snobbery, somehow the first time I looked at Western it didn't register as a "real" university, maybe just because the program is so new and the website is kind of new-agey. But I've seen loads of posts from people who are happy to be there, and even (gasp) chose it over other acceptances.

What do you think of it so far? I guess you go there and not elsewhere so it's going to be hard to say, but what do you think of the quality of the students and instructors? Are your rotations at private practices in the area? Is there any weirdness with the newness of the program, ironing out the curriculum or how classes are taught or anything?

I did the "gasp chose to go over other acceptances"... I absolutely love Western and do not regret my choice. The professors are awesome, the students are extremely helpful to eachother. Rotations are for the most part at private practices in the area (except for some large animal ones in central CA when Western pays for you to stay in a hotel) this is third year. Fourth year can be all over the world (that is up to you). For my class (the charter class) there has been some ironing out of the curriculum but that is what I signed up for when I chose to be a charter class member. I do not feel like it has harmed my learning in anyway. I think I am happy for it because when something needs to be looked into it is (I assume this would not be easy somewhere else where they have done the same thing for a long time, so they may be less likely to change). You are definately right that I cannot compare other vet schools because I am here, but that's fine because I am happy where I am and do not feel it necessary to try to see "if the grass is greener on the other side of the fence" 😉

 

[wishes]

The vast majority of veterinarians I have worked with in general practice are also competent surgeons. In fact, I would say most general practices do many procedures beyond routine spays and neuters, to include things like foreign body removal/abdominal exploratory, gastric torsions, and mass removals. I have even worked for veterinarians who commonly do more complicated “specialty” procedures, such amputations and other orthopedic surgeries. These veterinarians had not completed residencies, and most of them had never done an internship.
For these reasons, when i began visiting schools, I was floored by the apparent lack of surgical experience provided in veterinary school. The veterinarians I referred to in the preceding paragraph have been in practice for years, and I had not before considered the possibility that with the current movement away from terminal surgeries veterinary students today may getting less experience in school than they got a decade or two ago. I suppose it is possible that with tremendous advances being made in veterinary medicine, varied surgical experience is being partly replaced by more time spent on noninvasive diagnostic procedures or in didactic lecture. This would also explain the increasing trend toward specializing after vet school with an internship or a residency.
Still, I am relieved to hear from chris03333 that it is possible to come out of veterinary school with more surgical experience under your belt than just a spay and a neuter 🙂 .

 

[kate_g]

I did the "gasp chose to go over other acceptances"... I absolutely love Western and do not regret my choice.

Cool. I gave the website a second look - still new-agey on the front, but the curriculum description is pretty impressive from the point of view of getting early clinical experience. I'll definitely add Western to my list of places to consider more seriously... Thanks!

 

[kate_g]

In fact, I would say most general practices do many procedures beyond routine spays and neuters, to include things like foreign body removal/abdominal exploratory, gastric torsions, and mass removals.

That's exactly where I was coming from... I thought those things were fairly routine, so I assumed they were taught. So OK, I understand the ethical conundrum of terminal surgeries. But there are still thousands of animals euthanized every day; have programs increased their cadaver practice to make up for some of the experience? I mean, it's not going to bleed, and you're not going to be able to see it recover and assess complications, but you could still take the spleen out of a reasonably fresh dead cat and sew it back up...

(Sorry, that was kind of gross and explicit 😱 )

 

[wishes]

That's exactly where I was coming from... I thought those things were fairly routine, so I assumed they were taught. So OK, I understand the ethical conundrum of terminal surgeries. But there are still thousands of animals euthanized every day; have programs increased their cadaver practice to make up for some of the experience? I mean, it's not going to bleed, and you're not going to be able to see it recover and assess complications, but you could still take the spleen out of a reasonably fresh dead cat and sew it back up...

I think that I am just as puzzled as you about the situation. Presuming that my theories about veterinary medicine moving more, as human medicine has done, toward specialists, and advancing technology leaving less time during school for surgical experience don’t hold much water, perhaps more complicated surgeries are still taught but just less advertised.
I know that I have heard from some of schools I have visited that students with a particular interest in surgery can get plenty of experience during their clinical rotations if they show the incentive. Also, many schools offer surgery electives.

 

[chickenboo]

So OK, I understand the ethical conundrum of terminal surgeries. But there are still thousands of animals euthanized every day; have programs increased their cadaver practice to make up for some of the experience?

I think that programs have increased their cadaver practice to "make up" for some of the experience on live animals. How you're supposed to get the same tissue handling experience on dead animals is beyond me, though! I personally don't have a problem with terminal surgeries as long as they're done responsibly, and would rather get more surgical experience while in school...but oh well!

 

[CoffeeCrazy]

I think it's hard to get surgical experience at the universities because they have residents and interns that need the training, and students on externships are usually designated to the "watch and learn" position. Also, now that terminal surgeries are generally frowned upon, students are coming out of vet school with a lot less surgical experience. Schools that are in the UK, Australia, or even non-accredited schools in the Carribean give much more surgical experience.

The other thing is, there is so much to learn while you are in school and so many different "common" surgeries out there, that you need to get good at the basics. MD students don't do surgery, do they? As veterinary medicine is held to higher and higher standards, it requires more and more training. It is hard enough remembering what antibiotics are banned in which situations from which food animals.... how do you think you get training to deal with a GDV... in a cow? Most of it will have to be after you are a DVM.

However, I don't think I'm lacking in my vet school experience by any means. I didn't realize I was interested in surgery until I got here (although I do really like some other specialties, too). So as I near the end of my second year, I have done 2 toe amputations (one was on a fawn, one was on a goose... man those webbed feet bleed like heck) and I've scrubbed in to assist on an en-block resection on an owl, foreign body removal in a duck, and maybe one other thing. This summer, I am working with the same vet for 6 weeks... the better they know you, the more they let you do!

Also, while neuters aren't quite that invasive, spays are still abdominal surgery, and a lot can be learned from them. If you want extra spay experience, then you can always do a RAVS trip or volunteer at the local humane society. A friend of mine has learned to do rabbit spays with the vet at the Champaign humane society.

I've also gotten experience with wet labs through other clubs at school and conferences... the bigger conference often let students assist and participate for free, if you are on the ball and are the first to ask. So as long as you are a proactive student that looks for education wherever you can get it, there are plenty of opportunities.

 

[kate_g]

So as I near the end of my second year, I have done 2 toe amputations (one was on a fawn, one was on a goose... man those webbed feet bleed like heck) and I've scrubbed in to assist on an en-block resection on an owl, foreign body removal in a duck, and maybe one other thing. This summer, I am working with the same vet for 6 weeks... the better they know you, the more they let you do!

Thanks, I'm getting the idea that making my interest known and *asking* for opportunities is the best way to get them. But just to clarify - you're in your second year, presumably at UIUC given your location. I don't know their curriculum at all, but most schools don't seem to be doing clinical rotations by the second year. Plus, there's obviously a wildlife theme to your list. So do you have a job at a local wildlife rescue (during the summer, or in the regular school year?), or were these things you arranged with a professor you've gotten to know, or what?

 

[chickenboo]

for example, at Davis, you get a full year of surgery lab your third year...I *think* you end up doing 1 neuter and 2 spays every quarter (3 neuters/6 spays in all).

UGH...I was wrong about this, unfortunately. The bf just got all his surgery/anesthesia lab info. today. I had been reading the schedule wrong...thought it was per quarter, but it is really for the whole year...so you end up doing 1 neuter (dog), and 2 spays (1 dog, 1 cat). Anyway, just thought I would correct myself!

 

[CoffeeCrazy]

Thanks, I'm getting the idea that making my interest known and *asking* for opportunities is the best way to get them. But just to clarify - you're in your second year, presumably at UIUC given your location. I don't know their curriculum at all, but most schools don't seem to be doing clinical rotations by the second year. Plus, there's obviously a wildlife theme to your list. So do you have a job at a local wildlife rescue (during the summer, or in the regular school year?), or were these things you arranged with a professor you've gotten to know, or what?

Our wildlife clinic is run by students, so we get experience there. I worked as an intern there last summer, which is when I got to observe a lot of surgeries.... learned a LOT about handling wildlife, emergency triage, case management, interpreting diagnostics, etc. Due to my hanging around so much and getting to know the vet, I've been allowed to scrub in on my cases this year, and she trusted my team leader and I enough to let us do our goose's amputation (she just scrubbed in with us and talked us through it). We do a year of clinics here so I definitely am not in clinics yet! Wish I was, though.

I recognize I am lucky to have this opportunity - I know MN's raptor center doesn't let students do much other than clean cages, feed, and give meds. So it will be harder to make opportunities for yourself at some schools. No vet school is going to let a 2nd year practice on a client-owned animal, the possibility for a lawsuit is too risky!

I've also helped out at spay/neuter days so if you do a lot of those, they let you get extra surgery practice. My point is, it's really all about who knows you and whether they trust you... and whether it is a reasonable place for you to learn (animal shelters, wildlife, NOT referral practices that charge thousands).

 

[birdvet2006]

I read a post by an American at one of the Scottish schools that said the actual program is almost entirely classrom instruction, and you get your practical experience with mandatory externship-type things throughout the year that you have to arrange completely on your own.

Can anyone back that up or correct me? Anyone in an Australian program, is the same thing true there?

I can back you up on that, and you were probably referring to a post by me.

Our surgery class in 4th year was lecture (didactic). We learned first about the surgical environment (aspesis and equipment), then the suture materials and patterns (with one practical lab to learn how to do 3-4 suture patterns and the two basic hand-ties), and then the various types of surgical procedures. We covered them in a systematic fashion, mostly. Urogenital surgery = spays, neuters, urethrostomies/urtehrotomies, cystotomies etc. We would be told what type of suture patterns to use and what types of suture materials to use for each layer, etc. and the pros/cons of each type of procedure or approach. Though it's kind of boring at the time, it's quite important to know these things. Who knew there were a zillion types of gastropexies? We also discussed the possible complications to each procedure.

In fifth year (our totally clinical year), we go to the cat and dog home (SSPCA or similar) and do half a bitch spay (or a whole one if you were lucky) - this was during the soft tissue surgery rotation. You got to scrub in on other surgeries during that week (i.e. TECA-LBO, exploratory laparotomy, or OHE on a pyometra case), but usually not do much more than pass instruments and discuss the procedure with the surgeon.

I managed to miss orthopaedics rotation (one week), when I went to take the NAVLE in the USA. But they did have one "surgical exercises" practical where they got to drill holes in bones (dead bones) and put wires in them. I think my rotation group as a whole managed to miss another "surgical exercises" practical (that I've only heard of) - where they did TECA-LBOs on dead dogs and got to scrub/glove/gown.

Mostly, the residents and clinicians get to do surgery. The interns may only get to do a very little bit.

The majority of my surgical experience has been from our required extramural studies. I did a 1-week RAVS trip and did about 2 spays and 3 castrations on dogs. I did 4 weeks at a practice here in central Scotland and got to do about 4-5 cat spays (and they do flank spays here, so it was quite scary for me), 3-4 dog castrations, and 4-5 cat castrations. They were great teachers there and I feel much more confident that I can actually do these things now! Just this past month I spent some time in Orkney and got to do 3-4 cat castrations and would have done a cat spay but it was cancelled. I got to place continuous and interrupted sutures on a cow Caesarian section and to place horizontal mattress sutures to close a cow's vagina after a uterine prolapse.

A practice I've worked at back home in California - one of the vets lets me do parts of surgeries because he loves to teach and he knows me well. I have been able to do part of a mass removal, half a dog castration, and to suture up a cruciate repair.

So I think we may get less actual surgical experience during our vet school time, but should come out OK due to our extramural studies (26 weeks required over the last 3 years). The UK has very strong animal welfare laws, so it is against the law to "practice" on animals unless you have a special license to experiment on animals (so this means no terminal surgeries, ever). The laws enable vet students to do surgeries, but only if DIRECTLY supervised (minute by minute) by vets.

I have heard terminal surgeries occur at Ross University. I don't agree with this, even if it gives you "more experience". I don't feel all that deprived because of not having the opportunity to do a gastropexy, rumenotomy, or intestinal anastomosis. I think I can handle these procedures when I am required to do them as an actual veterinarian, with the skills I have and with support from another (more experienced) vet...(like having them somewhere in the building, not necessarily dictating to me what to do). But this is just my own view of the ethics.

 

[birdvet2006]

I haven't seen laproscopy performed on animals for veterinary purposes, only for human medicine on pigs and calves. I'm not sure who or for what they use them for animals. The idea is that the procedure is less invasive, which is important for human patients which healthcare wants out of the hospital ASAP. For animals that can be fairly easily and inexpensively monitored in a cage/stall environment I'm not sure if the cost of the equipment validates it, but I'm sure someone does it for something.

Laparoscopy is used fairly routinely in avian and exotic animal surgery. I was allowed to do some laparoscopy on an owl (it was terminal, it was going to be euthanised due to injury anyways...still not sure whether this was right or wrong, ethically) once. You can see all the reproductive organs (one use is to sex the bird) and air sacs, heart, kidneys, and ureters. You could easily go in there and do a renal biopsy or something of that sort with laparoscopy. I know you can also do a vasectomy that way. Just to give some examples. I have also seen the same equipment used to scope the trachea in a bird.

 

[spikey]

The vast majority of veterinarians I have worked with in general practice are also competent surgeons. In fact, I would say most general practices do many procedures beyond routine spays and neuters, to include things like foreign body removal/abdominal exploratory, gastric torsions, and mass removals. I have even worked for veterinarians who commonly do more complicated “specialty” procedures, such amputations and other orthopedic surgeries. These veterinarians had not completed residencies, and most of them had never done an internship.

my vets are the same way. they do spays, neuters, exploratories, amputations, cruciates, lumpectomies, eye removals, dentals, and other cool stuff. i watch all the time. not sure if any of them went through residencies, but i think maybe one did cause she's really good. either that, or she had a lot of practice 🙂

i find surgery really really interesting. i want to do as much of that as i can once i'm a vet.

 

[MicheleVet]

At UF:

We have a terminal surgery lab option as seniors. You can chose to do a cadaver lab. The lab corresponds to a didactic class. We learned R&A of the intestines, gastrotomy for FB removal, TECA, skin flaps for reconstruction, cystotomy, scrotal urethrostomy, several liver biopsy techniques, extracap (for CrCLR). After the class, some of the "live" dogs are saved for an intern and resident training/learning session. The anesthesiologists and critical care folks taught the interns and residents CPR (open and closed), bone marrow biopsies, tracheostomys, arterial catheter placement, and what ever other procedures we wanted to learn. The animals were all euthanized before waking from anesthesia. There are also orthopedic labs but those use bone models....exfix's, IM pinning, cerclage, etc.

In the clinics, we are able to see (depending on your rotation time, what comes in, which clinicians are on...):
Ortho: angular limb correction with ring fixation, many exfix's for fracture repair, bone plating, interlocking nail, FHO, TPO, TPLO, TTA, THR, limb sparing for radial osteosarcoma, bone transport osteogenesis, arthroscopy, OCD, elbows (FCPs), etc
Soft Tissue: splenectomy, GDV, liver biopsy (open or with laparoscopy), lung lobectomy (open or with thorascopy), PDA, laryngeal tie backs, brachycephalic (bulldog) sx, laser declaw, harmonic scalpel sx, amputations, mass removals, R&A, FB removal, laparoscopic gastropexy, feeding tube placement, nephrotomy, cystotomy, perineal urethrostomy, scrotal urethrostomy, TECABO, IVDD sx, liver shunt occlusion, and rarely kidney transplants

The medicine service uses endoscopy to try to remove many gastric foreign bodies to prevent sx...or to place feeding tubes....so there are those learning opportunities too.

Though you will get to *see* a lot of advanced sx here many of this stuff is best left to specialists and residency trained folk....the surgeons at UF though are very well known in their fields if you should seek letters of rec for internship and residency in the future.