Goro's guide to the DO school app process

[OsteopathicHopeful]

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Sorry about that. Thought some detail might aid my POV. So, how many docs have you worked with over what period of time? Having worked with many docs over many years, it would be hard to say that your point is not a generalization. Plus, as I stated above, there are many factors that go into the shaping of a physician.

Anyway the other point I was trying to make was that while bedside manner is, IMO, very important, it may NOT be the most important thing--especially if you need an excellent surgeon.

Oh, I am a female. 🙂

I am not necessarily in disagreement with you. I by no means think that MD or DO are better than the other. I do acknowledge that DOs tend to take more time in school with patient interactions and physical assessments. I think the biggest element one can take away from OMM is the familiarity of touch and evaluating the patient with your hands. In my opinion this can't be argued. Osteopathic students get many hours of training learning to Dx and treat patients with their hands and becoming close with their patients. That is the osteopathic philosophy. DO physicians are trained to treat the patient as a whole learning to incorporate many other aspects of life and care besides pathology and medicine. Again I may be a bit biased as I am sold on the osteopathic philosophy. I do agree that not all DOs strive for this philosophy the same and MDs do a great job too.
I do not completely agree that a physician that excels in surgery, but lacks good communication and relational skills when dealing with colleagues and patients makes a good physician. I feel like both are equally important. Especially in todays healthcare environment where teamwork and cooperation amongst other departments is critical

 

[jl lin]

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I do not completely agree that a physician that excels in surgery, but lacks good communication and relational skills when dealing with colleagues and patients makes a good physician. I feel like both are equally important. Especially in todays healthcare environment where teamwork and cooperation amongst other departments is critical

Of course both are important. But when the crap hits the fan, you WANT/NEED someone that is highly proficient and skilled and even talented doing the cutting and maneuvering on your or your child's body. At that point, the issue of whether they are warm and fuzzy is not even secondary or tertiary on the priority list. You want the best b/c you want or your loved ones want to live or be as well as you/they can be, period, end of story.

Like I said, it's totally wrong for a doc or nurse to be a J.O. to patients or even staff, etc. But I am saying that some folks are for whatever reason, not as warm and fuzzy; however, they have incredible aptitude, talent, etc.

Not everyone that wants to be a surgeon should necessarily be one. Of course the residency and fellowships beat the crap out of surgeons, and sometimes I believe that is part of the problem. It's extremely demanding.

But if an adcom focuses too much on personality issues, they MAY risk passing over someone with amazing potential.
As I said, it would be great to be both; but people are complicated.

At the end of the day, so long as you aren't a total b@$^@%(, I'll talk the surgeon that is not necessarily warm and fuzzy; but is incredibly skilled in all the ways I mentioned in the previous post over one that is more friendly and communicative, but not as good, any day of the week. There comes a point when personalities vary, and the weight of them becomes less important than skill, talent, and commitment. To me, this is particularly true in surgery.

By the way, I have found that there are a lot of caring surgeons out there--even if they don't seem quite as warm and fuzzy all the time or don't have a TON of time to talk with the patients ALL the time. These folks are under the gun. There's more stress to the role than I can possibly communicate; which is one reason why I KNOW I will NOT seek a surgical residency.

Also, there are people that know how to appear nice and personable; but there is a lot of superficiality to it. Behind closed doors or a minute after they are done seeing you, you are complete nothing in their mind. Just b/c a person isn't flowing with sweetest or as communicative and personable as another person does NOT necessarily mean they don't care. We have to watch the subjectivity here. I know a ton of docs and even nurses that are more on the reserved side, but care greatly about their patients and what they are doing.

 

[100111]

@Goro,

In the pre allo section I saw a few users saying that you had stated that by this point 2/3's of the interviews have already been given out. From what I see, majority of schools are currently looking at applications completed in august. This essentially means all september and beyond applicants are screwed unless they have stellar stats, no?

 

[Goro]

According to the wise gyngyn, who definitely knows about these things, I'd say it's more like 3/4ths of IIs have gone out by now.

So yes, if one doesn't not apply between June and early Sept, it's really late, unless one's app is indeed stellar.

LizzyM has posted about how they don't try to fill the boat all at once, and do go through boluses of IIs, in order to net good candidates who apply later.

Now the DO cycle, as you know, goes on much later...so send an app in to my school, somewhere west of the Missouri River!

@Goro,

In the pre allo section I saw a few users saying that you had stated that by this point 2/3's of the interviews have already been given out. From what I see, majority of schools are currently looking at applications completed in august. This essentially means all september and beyond applicants are screwed unless they have stellar stats, no?

 

[100111]

okay, thank you for the reply Goro!

I'll just hope for the best at this point. I was complete at ~7 schools mid september, and another 6 just last week. All D.O. programs.

 

[constantreverie]

Goro, I am interested in pursuing psychiatry. Am I fine going to a do school? Are there any schools that stand out for psychiatry?

 

[Doghead]

Goro, I am interested in pursuing psychiatry. Am I fine going to a do school? Are there any schools that stand out for psychiatry?

Yes. No.

 

[Mjolner]

Goro, I am interested in pursuing psychiatry. Am I fine going to a do school? Are there any schools that stand out for psychiatry?

The one that accepts you.

 

[deleted158872]

Do all of European Union countries acknowledge DO degree?
If so, do they allow DO full scope of practice?

 

[lyana]

Do all of European Union countries acknowledge DO degree?
If so, do they allow DO full scope of practice?

not all.
https://www.westernu.edu/bin/ime/international-practice-rights.pdf

 

[Goro]

100% agree. My schools always has about five grads (out of a Class of ~100) a year going into Psych.

Yes. No.

 

[Gandyy]

Goro might literally be the most helpful adcom on here. I know hes personally helped me a lot throughout this last year on advice.

Thank You Goro.

 

[Promethean]

Goro might literally be the most helpful adcom on here. I know hes personally helped me a lot throughout this last year on advice.

Thank You Goro.

I would hesitate to name any single person the MOST helpful... but he is definitely in the top 5 most helpful posters, adcom or otherwise.

EDIT: And what the heck is it with us that we need everything and everyone to be ranked all the time?

 

[Gandyy]

I would hesitate to name any single person the MOST helpful... but he is definitely in the top 5 most helpful posters, adcom or otherwise.

EDIT: And what the heck is it with us that we need everything and everyone to be ranked all the time?

True, I'm sure there are plenty of other helpful adcoms on here.

Yea I dont know if anyone is going to stop ranking things. Its SDN. Everyone has a 7.8 GPA and a 47 MCAT on here.

Except for me.... 🙁

 

[asdf123g]

@Goro :how important would you say it is to check the "Release Authorization May we contact this organization" box?

 

[Goro]

Haven't a clue! I've never seen that in any file I look over.

@Goro :how important would you say it is to check the "Release Authorization May we contact this organization" box?

 

[asdf123g]

Haven't a clue! I've never seen that in any file I look over.

1) it must be a part of the new application this year. Under every EC/job entry you add, the final check box per entry is about the release..yes or no. Do you think adcomms would find it suspicious if you choose not to allow them to contact the things or if some are allowed and some are not?

2) Also it is optional in the new application to provide contact info for each job/EC, would it not be good to not include this info? For some I can, others I cant, but its extra work.....and if its optional and wont hurt me, why do it?

 

[Mjolner]

1) it must be a part of the new application this year. Under every EC/job entry you add, the final check box per entry is about the release..yes or no. Do you think adcomms would find it suspicious if you choose not to allow them to contact the things or if some are allowed and some are not?

2) Also it is optional in the new application to provide contact info for each job/EC, would it not be good to not include this info? For some I can, others I cant, but its extra work.....and if its optional and wont hurt me, why do it?

Well. Do you have something to hide? Cause that's what it looks like to me, and I'm not even a wily adcom.

 

[Gandyy]

Well. Do you have something to hide? Cause that's what it looks like to me, and I'm not even a wily adcom.

I think that's kind of a cynical way of looking at it. If its optional I don't need more work . The application path to medical school is already lengthy and time consuming .

 

[Cawolf]

The general consensus is that you should seek to fill in as many optional areas as possible.

 

[nRomaleos]

Goro,

Have you already brought up your opinion about whether DO specific personal statements are necessary?

 

[AwayFromReality]

Goro,
Have you already brought up your opinion about whether DO specific personal statements are necessary?

From the first page of this thread.

Quizlet04 asked:

Should these both appear in the PS or somewhere else on the app?

• If you've ever been on the receiving end of OMM/OMT, make sure you let us know about it in your app.

• DO does not always = MD in terms of how doctors approach a clinical problem. So be sure to shadow both MDs and DOs, if at all possible. You should be able to articulate how they're similar, and how they differ.

Goro replied:

It can be either, or both. Most schools will ask "why DO"? on the secondary, so it's sometimes more appropriate there.

 

[Mr Roboto]

@Goro , I've shadowed several DOs and have talked to them about the differences between MD/DO. They minimized the differences, I didn't really observe any differences in practice, and none of them use OMT in their practices.

How am I supposed to answer questions from schools about this experience? I can obviously quote the differences that AACOMAS and Wikipedia mention, but if asked for differences I've observed personally I have to either lie or say "None." Saying none might give the impression that I wasn't paying enough attention or didn't actually shadow DOs. Making things up for an interview is obviously not so good.

 

[Gandyy]

@Goro , I've shadowed several DOs and have talked to them about the differences between MD/DO. They minimized the differences, I didn't really observe any differences in practice, and none of them use OMT in their practices.

How am I supposed to answer questions from schools about this experience? I can obviously quote the differences that AACOMAS and Wikipedia mention, but if asked for differences I've observed personally I have to either lie or say "None." Saying none might give the impression that I wasn't paying enough attention or didn't actually shadow DOs. Making things up for an interview is obviously not so good.

Did any of your DO physicians place a giant emphasis on preventative care? The DO physician I shadowed a lot emphasized it more than his MD counterparts at least from my experiences.

 

[Goro]

I am SO not stepping into this pile anymore! Lemme just say that I've learned that my MD colleagues here are deeply offended by the assertion that they don't practice holistic Medicine.

Are there differences, other than knowing OMT? I noticed differences. If you personally have seen no differences, that's an honest answer. Just don't be glib about it. It's interesting that you say your DOs "minimized the differences. That implies there are some differences.

@Goro , I've shadowed several DOs and have talked to them about the differences between MD/DO. They minimized the differences, I didn't really observe any differences in practice, and none of them use OMT in their practices.

How am I supposed to answer questions from schools about this experience? I can obviously quote the differences that AACOMAS and Wikipedia mention, but if asked for differences I've observed personally I have to either lie or say "None." Saying none might give the impression that I wasn't paying enough attention or didn't actually shadow DOs. Making things up for an interview is obviously not so good.

 

[Mr Roboto]

I am SO not stepping into this pile anymore! Lemme just say that I've learned that my MD colleagues here are deeply offended by the assertion that they don't practice holistic Medicine.

Are there differences, other than knowing OMT? I noticed differences. If you personally have seen no differences, that's an honest answer. Just don't be glib about it. It's interesting that you say your DOs "minimized the differences. That implies there are some differences.

I'll try to shadow other DOs, maybe the differences will be more apparent in another setting and with different physicians. They minimized the differences I saw commonly mentioned online, saying that in practice the distinctions are negligible (with regards to "treating the whole patient," and using OMT). It wouldn't have come up if I hadn't asked them. But this is n=3. Thanks, as always, for the advice!

Did any of your DO physicians place a giant emphasis on preventative care? The DO physician I shadowed a lot emphasized it more than his MD counterparts at least from my experiences.

I'll try to shadow a DO PCP. These were hospitalists and EM. Maybe it will be more apparent 🙂

 

[Gandyy]

I'll try to shadow other DOs, maybe the differences will be more apparent in another setting and with different physicians. They minimized the differences I saw commonly mentioned online, saying that in practice the distinctions are negligible (with regards to "treating the whole patient," and using OMT). It wouldn't have come up if I hadn't asked them. But this is n=3. Thanks, as always, for the advice!



I'll try to shadow a DO PCP. These were hospitalists and EM. Maybe it will be more apparent 🙂

Yea, I've pretty much shadowed only DO PCP's.

 

[Dohnut]

!!

Delightfully informative this thread is

 

[Seth Joo]

Almost everything @Goro has written about the merger is conjecture, wishful thinking or marketing/spin. There is nothing in the merger agreement from what I've seen that says current ACGME programs can't keep outright rejecting DOs. Nothing that says they have to accept the COMLEX. Nowhere does it say that programs must give a preference to US grads. I feel like some DO school officials are trying to use this merger as another marketing tool to use on naive premeds just like "treating the whole patient" and the holistic approach

DOs will never be on parity with MDs, its wishful thinking to believe that a DO from a low tier DO school in some rural town is going to be viewed as an equal to an MD from Harvard, that will NEVER happen. Most DO schools have in their charter that they exist to create primary care physicians and doctors for communities with shortages of physicians so they tend to get applicants who would never get into the door of an MD institution.

 

[Zaids37]

Is it really not ok for me to use the patient-centered approach as the reason I want to go DO? I know MD doctors can use the same approach since its dependent on the physician but I like that this approach is highlighted in osteopathic programs because of the philosophy they follow. Is that not good enough of a reason?

I can talk about the body being connected since the DO I shadowed talked a bit about that but the primary reason is above, I would have to bs the body connection thing a bit...

 

[Dohnut]

DOs will never be on parity with MDs, its wishful thinking to believe that a DO from a low tier DO school in some rural town is going to be viewed as an equal to an MD from Harvard, that will NEVER happen. Most DO schools have in their charter that they exist to create primary care physicians and doctors for communities with shortages of physicians so they tend to get applicants who would never get into the door of an MD institution.

That cannot be more wrong.


A Harvard MD attending physician describes one of my college buddies who's a DO and sorta lead resident on a radiology residency at one of the top tier hospitals in the Great State of Texas as an amazing doctor.

 

[Goro]

Tell it to this guy, Seth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_R._Blanck

And even though DO may have specific missions to provide Primary care docs for particular areas, that doesn't mean their grads can go into specialties.

DOs will never be on parity with MDs, its wishful thinking to believe that a DO from a low tier DO school in some rural town is going to be viewed as an equal to an MD from Harvard, that will NEVER happen. Most DO schools have in their charter that they exist to create primary care physicians and doctors for communities with shortages of physicians so they tend to get applicants who would never get into the door of an MD institution.

Our MD colleagues get very offended by implications that they do not use a patient centric approach to Medicine, or that they do not practice holistically.

Is it really not ok for me to use the patient-centered approach as the reason I want to go DO? I know MD doctors can use the same approach since its dependent on the physician but I like that this approach is highlighted in osteopathic programs because of the philosophy they follow. Is that not good enough of a reason?

I can talk about the body being connected since the DO I shadowed talked a bit about that but the primary reason is above, I would have to bs the body connection thing a bit...

 

[Dohnut]

Tell it to this guy, Seth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_R._Blanck

HOOAH

 

[Dohnut]

And even though DO may have specific missions to provide Primary care docs for particular areas, that doesn't mean their grads can go into spececialties.

Even MD schools such as UCSD, Creighton, UT San Antonio, UT Houston, UTMB in Galveston, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, to list a few, have commitment to primary care.

The key here is patient-centered care for outcomes/results. The two-letter acronym after your name have absolutely no bearing whatsoever to the quality of care provided to the individual patients.

The general argument that MD > DO is purely superficial, ignorant, egoistic, ridiculous, and blown out of proportion, IMHO.

 

[Seth Joo]

Tell it to this guy, Seth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_R._Blanck

And even though DO may have specific missions to provide Primary care docs for particular areas, that doesn't mean their grads can go into specialties.





Our MD colleagues get very offended by implications that they do not use a patient centric approach to Medicine, or that they do not practice holistically.

And your point? One token DO means nothing. If I saw large numbers of them at Mass General and at other Ivy League institutions it would change my mind, right now to claim that there are no biases at all against DOs is like claiming that people of all skin colors are treated the same by the cops and the justice system is color blind, its just not reality.

Given the outrageous cost of medical education most people do not want to become primary care doctors, they want to become specialists, as an MD your chances are much better of achieving that. Get away from all the politically correct nonsense, America is a biased society, things like skin color, religion, race, social status, income, do in fact affect where we go in our life, affect things like how we fare in education, jobs, the justice system, encounters with police, etc., think we live in some lala land where we are all equal?? We are not.

 

[Dohnut]

Same here. No DO wants students to shadow

Use personal connections. The board certified DO I shadowed and I had a mutual college friend who's also a DO except my buddy is just doing an MD radiology residency right now.

 

[Dohnut]

And your point? One token DO means nothing. If I saw large numbers of them at Mass General and at other Ivy League institutions it would change my mind, right now to claim that there are no biases at all against DOs is like claiming that people of all skin colors are treated the same by the cops and the justice system is color blind, its just not reality.

Given the outrageous cost of medical education most people do not want to become primary care doctors, they want to become specialists, as an MD your chances are much better of achieving that. Get away from all the politically correct nonsense, America is a biased society, things like skin color, religion, race, social status, income, do in fact affect where we go in our life, affect things like how we fare in education, jobs, the justice system, encounters with police, etc., think we live in some lala land where we are all equal?? We are not.

I feel ya. It'll be challenging but rising up to meet the challenge will be deeply satisfying and you'll learn much about yourself you previously weren't aware of.


Or, you can move to the Great State of Texas and pay 12k annual tuition for TCOM 😉

I was paying a tid bit more than 10k a year for pharmacy school here in Texas 10 years ago while most other non Texas schools charged 40-50k a year.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

And your point? One token DO means nothing. If I saw large numbers of them at Mass General and at other Ivy League institutions it would change my mind, right now to claim that there are no biases at all against DOs is like claiming that people of all skin colors are treated the same by the cops and the justice system is color blind, its just not reality.

Given the outrageous cost of medical education most people do not want to become primary care doctors, they want to become specialists, as an MD your chances are much better of achieving that. Get away from all the politically correct nonsense, America is a biased society, things like skin color, religion, race, social status, income, do in fact affect where we go in our life, affect things like how we fare in education, jobs, the justice system, encounters with police, etc., think we live in some lala land where we are all equal?? We are not.

The only inequality between DO and MD is on a social level paired with extremely competitive residencies that may favor MD a lot more than DO just based on a bias. Other than that, as a DO you can pretty much specialize in any area if you are willing to give up prestige to some extent. In the end you all end up in the same place, you all are called "Doctor", and you all will have the same scope of practice within your specialty/sub-specialty.

 

[Seth Joo]

I feel ya. It'll be challenging but rising up to meet the challenge will be deeply satisfying and you'll learn much about yourself you previously weren't aware of.


Or, you can move to the Great State of Texas and pay 12k annual tuition for TCOM 😉

I was paying a tid bit more than 10k a year for pharmacy school here in Texas 10 years ago while most other non Texas schools charged 40-50k a year.

TCOM is a great school and there is massive variable quality in clinical training among DO schools compared to MD schools, especially when you start going to mid tier and lower tier DO schools.

Quality DO schools are MSU, CCOM, ATSU, NSU, Ohio, TCOM, PCOM, Oklahoma State, KCUMB, WVU outside of these the quality of the schools become more variable. I think the best mid tier DO school is AZCOM where I go, mostly because its a branch of CCOM, its been extremely well managed.

The main difference between upper tier MD and mid tier and lower tier MD schools is research but clinical training is roughly equal at all of them.

And sure there are some lower tier MD schools that focus on primary care but most people are familiar with upper tier MD schools that focus on research like Harvard, Columbia, Hopkins, Yale, etc.

 

[Zaids37]

Our MD colleagues get very offended by implications that they do not use a patient centric approach to Medicine, or that they do not practice holistically.

Thanks for the advice Goro. Is it ok to still mention I want to practice patient-centered care as part of the osteopathic philosophy in addition to providing an understanding of the other aspects of the philosophy (preventative medicine/self-healing, the body being interconnected)? Or should I leave out the patient-centered idea entirely? I certainly don't want to offend anyone. If thats the case I can just say I personally want to practice patient-centered care and not relate it to the philosophy at all.

 

[Gandyy]

TCOM is a great school and there is massive variable quality in clinical training among DO schools compared to MD schools, especially when you start going to mid tier and lower tier DO schools.

Quality DO schools are MSU, CCOM, ATSU, NSU, Ohio, TCOM, PCOM, Oklahoma State, KCUMB, WVU outside of these the quality of the schools become more variable. I think the best mid tier DO school is AZCOM where I go, mostly because its a branch of CCOM, its been extremely well managed.

The main difference between upper tier MD and mid tier and lower tier MD schools is research but clinical training is roughly equal at all of them.

And sure there are some lower tier MD schools that focus on primary care but most people are familiar with upper tier MD schools that focus on research like Harvard, Columbia, Hopkins, Yale, etc.

Umm... I've heard that DMU is the best DO school in the nation from many people and its not in your list?

 

[Goro]

Perfectly OK!

Thanks for the advice Goro. Is it ok to still mention I want to practice patient-centered care as part of the osteopathic philosophy in addition to providing an understanding of the other aspects of the philosophy (preventative medicine/self-healing, the body being interconnected)? Or should I leave out the patient-centered idea entirely? I certainly don't want to offend anyone. If thats the case I can just say I personally want to practice patient-centered care and not relate it to the philosophy at all.

DMU is a fine school indeed.

If you ask ten DOs to name the best DO schools, you'll get 11 different answers!

Umm... I've heard that DMU is the best DO school in the nation from many people and its not in your list?

 

[Seth Joo]

Umm... I've heard that DMU is the best DO school in the nation from many people and its not in your list?

Oops forgot DMU but that is a good one as well. AZCOM is easily the best DO school west of St. Louis our affiliation with CCOM has helped us a lot as our extremely professional staff and first class facilities. The best mid tier DO school and the best one in the Western United States, take a look at the other DO schools in the region, I think only ATSU-SOMA is comparable.

 

[Zaids37]

Perfectly OK!

Thanks Goro! Hopefully I didn't completely shoot myself in the foot by only focusing on patient-centered in a couple of my essays 🤔

 

[Seth Joo]

Do all of European Union countries acknowledge DO degree?
If so, do they allow DO full scope of practice?

No only a few recognize the DO degree, I think right now its the UK, but its pretty hard to get a license to work there, also the salary there is lower than the US. Other European countries it depends. Also you need to speak the language as well, many Europeans do not speak English, if you cannot communicate with your patients you cannot be a doctor in many countries. If you want to work in Europe, go to a European medical school. It will make your life a lot easier, its also a lot cheaper to study there.

Working conditions vary in different European countries, some countries the pay is horrible and doctors are overworked, they earn less than garbage men and people have little respect for physicians. Socialized medicine is bad news.

I know in Japan, the typical doctor earns around $75,000 dollars a year when you consider that everything is more expensive in Japan that is nothing. A programmer for Nintendo makes 200k a year in comparison, fisherman over 120k a year.

Even Canada puts up a lot of hurdles towards Americans wanting to work there and its not that different from the US. Australia does the same and they are not that different from the US.

 

[TUVIX]

This thread is great. I wish I knew which school you were at @Goro so I could make sure to apply there.

 

[Goro]

Let's just say one that's west of the Missouri River.

This thread is great. I wish I knew which school you were at @Goro so I could make sure to apply there.

 

[TUVIX]

Let's just say one that's west of the Missouri River.

I think I get the hint. I hope so anyway, because it wasn't on my list. I'll add it now.