- Joined
- Jun 11, 2010
- Messages
- 72,624
- Reaction score
- 115,667
That time of year!
OK, it's app season, and I've already addressed things that will be common concerns to any med school applicant (MD or DO). See this thread:
Goro's guide to the app process (2019 ed.)
First off, should you apply to DO schools? I feel that if you have a GPA of 3.5 or higher, AND an MCAT of 513, then it’s worth trying an MD only cycle.
IF you have an MCAT of 512 or less and/or a GPA of < 3.5, then try MD + DO.
IF you have an MCAT of < 504, and/or GPA of < 3.4 (without a steep rising GPA trend or any postbac/SMP classes, then go DO only. Your mileage may vary if you live in a lucky state like MS, ND, NM, AL, etc.
Here I'd like to touch on things for you DO candidates specifically.
o Do your homework. We expect you to know about osteopathy, and please, do better than quoting wikipedia at us. And if any of you say "they look at the whole person" or, “your hands are your tools” one more time, I'm going to reach across the table and smack you upside the head!
o To that end, find a DO to shadow! This is especially imperative if you live within driving distance of a DO school, or live in areas of the country which are relatively DO-rich, like the mid-west or the east coast.
o If you've ever been on the receiving end of OMM/OMT, make sure you let us know about it in your app.
o DO does not always = MD in terms of how doctors approach a clinical problem. So be sure to shadow both MDs and DOs, if at all possible. You should be able to articulate how they're similar, and how they differ.
o While there are DO schools that require a DO LOR, lacking one will not kill you at those schools (like mine) that don't require one. We know that there are some areas where there are fewer DOs, and a gazillion pre-meds are pestering them for LORs, so it's hard to get them. BUT, having a DO LOR always helps! Shows you've gone the extra mile. BTW, people who have two DO LORs are rare, and we give them extra credit.
o If you look at the numbers, there are DO schools that have stats for matriculants that are on par with those of some MD schools and even exceed some state MD schools, like U AR or U KS. So like MD schools, DO schools will expect you to have a minimum standard, but they're more willing to accept a high GPA + low MCAT or a high MCAT + low GPA applicant. By "low", I mean a floor of 3.0 for GPA, and MCAT of ~500.
o To that end, if your MCAT score is <497, I strongly suggest a retake. If your GPA is <3.0, I suggest either aceing a post-bac, or SMP.
o If you're hesitant to apply because of fears that you won't get that coveted ultra-competitive residency, well, that’s a valid concern. With the merger of AOA and ACGME residencies, it’s going to be an uphill battle for DO grads for top residency sites, and/or the uber-residencies like Neurosurgery or Derm. The best source to give you an idea of how competitive different fields are can be seen in the annual NRMP Program Director’s survey. For 2018, see: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf
Does this mean that you’re limited to Peds or Family Medicine? No, but just approach this process eyes open, and be aware the some fields are more DO-friendly than others. Let’s put this another way: knowing that the majority of DO grads go into Primary Care, are you OK with that being your most likely career path???? But please do not be surprised that the mission of the AOA is to train more Primary Care doctors.
o Most MD schools are in urban areas. Not so for a number of DO schools. So think carefully about where a school is. I don't believe that the areas around Pikesville or LUCOM will be happy places for gay or minority students.
o If you'd rather be at an MD school, and you're applying to both, consider NOW whether you'd rather be at a DO school, or an MD one. We've certainly had people turn us down for the nearby MD school, and vice-versa. Every year we see threads entitled “Accepted at DO but on MD waitlist. Should I re-apply?” I despise these threads. Self-hating DOs are real, and I don’t want them as students.
o When you go on interviews, the most important question you can ask is of the students who attend there: "why did you choose this school?"
Concerning new schools, they can be problematic. Their Faculty take time to gel and deliver a good curriculum. For their first couple of years, they have lower Board scores, and higher attrition rates. Plus, PDs aren’t familiar with their grads. But keep in mind that low pass rates, Board scores and high attrition can result from Admissions policies. New schools, by the fact that they're new, are more desperate to fill seats and will accept more marginal candidates. These are the people who are more likely to fail, or take LOA. If you are good at self-learning, you can handle a new school.
Some valuable advice fromgrapefruit17 in this thread:
Factors that matter when choosing a DO school.
Currently, there are five DO schools I can’t recommend. Here’s why:
Nova: three of the four last years have declining first-time COMLEX pass rates. They're now at ~85% and on top of this, some 7% of their 2018 grads failed to match. This was the second worst match rate among all the COMs (only WCU did worse). They also have yet to post their 2018 COMLEX results, even though they’ve had a full year to mull them over. This is NOT a good sign. These are all things you expect from a new school, not a veteran one. Something is very wrong there.
Wm Carey: VERY high attrition rates and only a 92% placement rate for their Class of 2018. That means 8% of their grads are now unemployed, NOT doing residency. No SOAP, no scramble, no TRI. This is simply NOT acceptable. I expect they'll be put on probation very soon.
Touro-NY: Poor COMLEX II pass rates.
LUCOM: I have a profound distaste for the politics of their parent organization; they’re disingenuous about whether their strict lifestyle rules apply to medical students (they do); and their Faculty make blatant attempts to twist facts to match their theology.
From the wise gyngyn: Liberty is poorly regarded due to the history of intolerance of their founding fathers. This school's reputation for intolerance puts its grads at a disadvantage at many reputable residency programs.
LMU: granted continuing Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring. “Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring: This indicates that fewer than three standards are non-compliant and ongoing monitoring will occur via progress reporting. For schools with this status, accreditation will be granted for four years.”
This is the only COM that has this level of accreditation status right now.
osteopathic.org
OK, it's app season, and I've already addressed things that will be common concerns to any med school applicant (MD or DO). See this thread:
Goro's guide to the app process (2019 ed.)
First off, should you apply to DO schools? I feel that if you have a GPA of 3.5 or higher, AND an MCAT of 513, then it’s worth trying an MD only cycle.
IF you have an MCAT of 512 or less and/or a GPA of < 3.5, then try MD + DO.
IF you have an MCAT of < 504, and/or GPA of < 3.4 (without a steep rising GPA trend or any postbac/SMP classes, then go DO only. Your mileage may vary if you live in a lucky state like MS, ND, NM, AL, etc.
Here I'd like to touch on things for you DO candidates specifically.
o Do your homework. We expect you to know about osteopathy, and please, do better than quoting wikipedia at us. And if any of you say "they look at the whole person" or, “your hands are your tools” one more time, I'm going to reach across the table and smack you upside the head!
o To that end, find a DO to shadow! This is especially imperative if you live within driving distance of a DO school, or live in areas of the country which are relatively DO-rich, like the mid-west or the east coast.
o If you've ever been on the receiving end of OMM/OMT, make sure you let us know about it in your app.
o DO does not always = MD in terms of how doctors approach a clinical problem. So be sure to shadow both MDs and DOs, if at all possible. You should be able to articulate how they're similar, and how they differ.
o While there are DO schools that require a DO LOR, lacking one will not kill you at those schools (like mine) that don't require one. We know that there are some areas where there are fewer DOs, and a gazillion pre-meds are pestering them for LORs, so it's hard to get them. BUT, having a DO LOR always helps! Shows you've gone the extra mile. BTW, people who have two DO LORs are rare, and we give them extra credit.
o If you look at the numbers, there are DO schools that have stats for matriculants that are on par with those of some MD schools and even exceed some state MD schools, like U AR or U KS. So like MD schools, DO schools will expect you to have a minimum standard, but they're more willing to accept a high GPA + low MCAT or a high MCAT + low GPA applicant. By "low", I mean a floor of 3.0 for GPA, and MCAT of ~500.
o To that end, if your MCAT score is <497, I strongly suggest a retake. If your GPA is <3.0, I suggest either aceing a post-bac, or SMP.
o If you're hesitant to apply because of fears that you won't get that coveted ultra-competitive residency, well, that’s a valid concern. With the merger of AOA and ACGME residencies, it’s going to be an uphill battle for DO grads for top residency sites, and/or the uber-residencies like Neurosurgery or Derm. The best source to give you an idea of how competitive different fields are can be seen in the annual NRMP Program Director’s survey. For 2018, see: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf
Does this mean that you’re limited to Peds or Family Medicine? No, but just approach this process eyes open, and be aware the some fields are more DO-friendly than others. Let’s put this another way: knowing that the majority of DO grads go into Primary Care, are you OK with that being your most likely career path???? But please do not be surprised that the mission of the AOA is to train more Primary Care doctors.
o Most MD schools are in urban areas. Not so for a number of DO schools. So think carefully about where a school is. I don't believe that the areas around Pikesville or LUCOM will be happy places for gay or minority students.
o If you'd rather be at an MD school, and you're applying to both, consider NOW whether you'd rather be at a DO school, or an MD one. We've certainly had people turn us down for the nearby MD school, and vice-versa. Every year we see threads entitled “Accepted at DO but on MD waitlist. Should I re-apply?” I despise these threads. Self-hating DOs are real, and I don’t want them as students.
o When you go on interviews, the most important question you can ask is of the students who attend there: "why did you choose this school?"
Concerning new schools, they can be problematic. Their Faculty take time to gel and deliver a good curriculum. For their first couple of years, they have lower Board scores, and higher attrition rates. Plus, PDs aren’t familiar with their grads. But keep in mind that low pass rates, Board scores and high attrition can result from Admissions policies. New schools, by the fact that they're new, are more desperate to fill seats and will accept more marginal candidates. These are the people who are more likely to fail, or take LOA. If you are good at self-learning, you can handle a new school.
Some valuable advice fromgrapefruit17 in this thread:
Factors that matter when choosing a DO school.
Currently, there are five DO schools I can’t recommend. Here’s why:
Nova: three of the four last years have declining first-time COMLEX pass rates. They're now at ~85% and on top of this, some 7% of their 2018 grads failed to match. This was the second worst match rate among all the COMs (only WCU did worse). They also have yet to post their 2018 COMLEX results, even though they’ve had a full year to mull them over. This is NOT a good sign. These are all things you expect from a new school, not a veteran one. Something is very wrong there.
Wm Carey: VERY high attrition rates and only a 92% placement rate for their Class of 2018. That means 8% of their grads are now unemployed, NOT doing residency. No SOAP, no scramble, no TRI. This is simply NOT acceptable. I expect they'll be put on probation very soon.
Touro-NY: Poor COMLEX II pass rates.
LUCOM: I have a profound distaste for the politics of their parent organization; they’re disingenuous about whether their strict lifestyle rules apply to medical students (they do); and their Faculty make blatant attempts to twist facts to match their theology.
From the wise gyngyn: Liberty is poorly regarded due to the history of intolerance of their founding fathers. This school's reputation for intolerance puts its grads at a disadvantage at many reputable residency programs.
LMU: granted continuing Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring. “Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring: This indicates that fewer than three standards are non-compliant and ongoing monitoring will occur via progress reporting. For schools with this status, accreditation will be granted for four years.”
This is the only COM that has this level of accreditation status right now.
Accreditation decisions for colleges of osteopathic medicine - American Osteopathic Association
Chicago, September 24, 2018–The American Osteopathic Association’s Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA) today announced accreditation decisions made at its Aug. 24-26, 2018 meeting. Comprehensive site visits occur at the end of an accreditation cycle. The following...
osteopathic.org
. In all seriousness, if you rotate with your MD brethren it will allow you to maintain your DO core values while learning cutting edge medicine. Community hospitals can provide outstanding learning opportunities but do not always give exposure to novel innovations, research opportunities and new modalities.
