Got into both DO and MD and took the DO path?

[Echinoidea]

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I dont understand why the AOA doesnt support a combined match...

Are there anyother ways in which they do not act in the best interest of students that we premeds should be aware of?

-WARNING: RANT-
You bring up an excellent point, and one that I wish I had researched more before I began at an osteopathic school. While I cannot complain about the quality of my pre-clinical education thus far, I have encountered serious amounts of frustration in the policies and general attitude of the AOA towards students.

To be brief, the AOA has (in my opinion) a severely antagonistic relationship with the DO student body right now. There is a lot of animosity from the students towards the AOA due to several very pressing issues. I'll outline them for you.

1. The combined match: The AOA has been steadfastly opposed to this concept from its first suggestion. Why? Because they know as well as we do that there are far, far more high quality allopathic residencies that osteopathic. They also rightly know that if they combine the match, they will lose more of these of recent grads to allopathic residencies. So whats their solution? Rather than increasing the quality and number of osteopathic residencies, they lock us into an antiquated system. This is the truth about the combined match that nobody talks about. It all comes down to perpetuating the Osteopathic legacy of 'seperate but equal' at the expense of our education.

2. The opening of new schools: More and more open every year, further diluting the applicant pool. All the while, the number of osteopathic residencies decreases or stays stagnant. So, on the one hand, we are told to "be true to our osteopathic roots" and go to an osteopathic residency, but in fact, the DO establishment relies on the goodwill of the allopathic world because there simply are not enough osteopathic residencies for each new DO. So, my question is this: since the AOA allows for more and more schools to open, further increasing our reliance on ACGME programs, what is going to happen when the proposed 15% increase in MD enrollment occurs? Where are we going to go then?
And whats going to happen when the applicant pool dries up? How low are we going to go in terms of MCAT scores and GPAs in order to fill a class? If you think that any school would stand on principle and choose not to fill the class in oder to keep admission stats up, you're crazy. Some of the MCAT averages at DO schools are embarassing.

3. The 'OMS' iinstead of 'MS' nonsense/DOs on TV, etc: Not a huge issue, and one that is not often discussed on SDN, but its my pet peeve. And its a good representaion of the ridiculous nature of what the leadership considers student initiatives. Its a good example of how the AOA chooses to expend its efforts.

4. What really soured me on the AOA was the 2 AOA President question-and-answer sessions held at my school. Talk about a hostile encounter. Both of these guys were very talented at talking completly around a question without answering it directly. Neither of them could give any substantitive response to issue of new schools opening or expansion of residencies. They both brushed off the combined match issue as if it did'nt even merit attention. I still don't know if what the AOA position is on the rapid increase in DO schools.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this post, but I really don't care. I defy anyone to say with a straight face that the AOA has the student's best interests at heart when it comes up with policies like these.

 

[bones]

-WARNING: RANT-

Lol...

you have some valid points, but i would like to emphasize that not all DO residencies are poor. Some are great. Some are on par with the best residency training in the country in terms of the skill of residents leaving the programs- and they allow for more hands-on work (tend to be more interactive), and also continue to help develop your palpatory skill.

That said, no disagreement here on the frustration about the combined match and with all the new DO schools. Most OMM departments have only about 4-6 faculty now (Kirksville used to have 12 on staff when i was a first year, now there are 5) since its so hard to recruit qualified OMM physicians (give up a 400k cash-based practice to teach for 120k/year and be forced to sit through department meetings?). Some do it to pass the art along, however- payback to the profession they love. These few special teachers are now spread thinner and thinner as new schools open. I hear that some of the new schools have only 1 or 2 OMM physicans for the whole school- i can imagine how much hands on help you get in lab there for your 150 student classes... 🙁

So do your research about your schools before submitting your applications.

The students i worked with who will be omm fellows for KCOM will be great for those of you entering 2010/2011, and that helps- and the Sniders are excellent (husband/wife OMM team) you will still get a very good osteopathic education here (crossing my fingers that they stay...)- especially if you take the time to shadow them and spend a lot of time with the fellows.

--------
oh,

Here is an excellent link for those of you on the fence who are thinking about ER... addressing points of the internship year and the worry about anti-DO discrimination, written by people who know more about it than myself since they are all currently DO ER residents.

http://www.emra.org/images/upload/DOsinEMResidencies.pdf

 

[bones]

also agree with the OMS nonsense (see sig). needless confusion. Most people at hospitals dont know what that means. Not a very effective way to advertise our profession.

And as for 4... the only way to make a better AOA is to be the leader you wish they would be. Take leadership positions for organizations, work your way up. Join the AOA as a physician- and one day run for AOA president yourself. I'll vote for you if i think you can back up what you say with a love of osteopathy and merely a distain for the AOA's public policy decisions (or maybe I'll run against you). Its a small pond, and as a big fish you have more sway here than you might think (and FAR more than you'd ever have in MD organizations).

 

[bones]

by the time one finishes med school. Either MD or DO. They will be so busy trying to specialize or just doing the requirements for their residency, they will be less in need of learn OMM. Of course that is different for those doing Osteo Residency (limited to DO's) or Rehab or Muscular related specialty (MD or DO). That is the reason most DOs don't use OMM.

If you want to limit your marketing potential, your income, and your ability to help patients, then this approach is fine. You get all of the "cons" of being a DO with none of the benefits. Go for it.

As a premed I'd keep an open mind though, especially going to NECOM. Dr. Willard is one of the finest osteopathically oriented anatomists in the country (a PhD), so you will have quite an opportunity to learn functional anatomy and ways in which osteopathy can address a variety of issues (he did an excellent lecture a couple of years ago on the osteopathic approach to coronary artery disease at an AAO convention- drawing from a huge base of basic science research and animal research to back up his theories... explaining that lymphatic congestion very well may be the basis for local vascular plaque accumulation. This would explain how exercise helps the heart, and it gives us all ideas of how to approach patients with CAD- targeting lymphatics directly as well as their autonomic systems (which most DO's already know about). Now we just have to take it to the clinic and find some qualified docs to do the research. Thats the hard part... since the clinical research training is lacking at many DO schools 🙄

 

[carn311]

--------
oh,

Here is an excellent link for those of you on the fence who are thinking about ER... addressing points of the internship year and the worry about anti-DO discrimination, written by people who know more about it than myself since they are all currently DO ER residents.

http://www.emra.org/images/upload/DOsinEMResidencies.pdf

Awesome bones...thanks again.

 

[bones]

Awesome bones...thanks again.

great sig.

 

[carn311]

great sig.

yeah...great for those who arent stuck here 😀

I guess we're the #1 party school in the nation. I'm such an idiot; I didnt know this when I applied I just knew it was next door to me and very cheap.
I have tons of stories from this place. Like the professor who LIVES in the library (I've walked into the bathroom at 7:30 to find him washing up and brushing his teeth) and carries on conversations with himself...I mean he gets into heated arguments. Imagine working late into the night at the library knowing this guy is lurking about. Or the chinese TA I have for my genetics discussion who speaks NO english and mumbles to cover it up. When you ask him a question he laughs and retreats to the back of the room be cause he has NO idea what you just said.


...someone...anyone...get me outta here!

 

[bones]

sounds like an entertaining place 😀 Rember those stories for med school. It'll be YOU thats mumbling to yourself and brushing your teeth at 7 after pulling your 2nd straight all nighter studying for your neuroanatomy exam the poor second years around here look like they're all shellshocked... ahh I remember the days. It does get better... I promise 👍

 

[SquidDoc]

Dr. Willard is one of the finest osteopathically oriented anatomists in the country (a PhD), so you will have quite an opportunity to learn functional anatomy and ways in which osteopathy can address a variety of issues (he did an excellent lecture a couple of years ago on the osteopathic approach to coronary artery disease at an AAO convention- drawing from a huge base of basic science research and animal research to back up his theories... explaining that lymphatic congestion very well may be the basis for local vascular plaque accumulation. This would explain how exercise helps the heart, and it gives us all ideas of how to approach patients with CAD- targeting lymphatics directly as well as their autonomic systems (which most DO's already know about). Now we just have to take it to the clinic and find some qualified docs to do the research. Thats the hard part... since the clinical research training is lacking at many DO schools 🙄

Dr. Willard is awesome! We had him as a guest lecturer at WesternU/COMP when I was an MSI. I still go back and look at his powerpoints from time to time. He was instrumental in my understanding of neuromuscular mechanisms...

 

[me454555]

This depends on what specialty you are interested in.

If you want to go into EM, IM, FP, or Peds, then it's much easier to be a DO, since so many more spots are available to you.

For IM, FP, and Peds matching is pretty easy regardless of MD or DO. There are plenty of programs to choose from and spots are plentiful in both. The problem w/DO residencies is that they are generally in less desireable locations. I think there might be 1 or 2 DO peds residencies in all of socal.

As for EM - there aren't that many quality EM residencies there @ level 1 trama centers. Most of the people I know who are trying to match ER are trying to get into the allo programs as they have a pretty good history of taking DOs. On top of that, osteo ER programs (surprise surprise) aren't in the prime locations people want to be at.

The less desireable locations combined w/the fact that you get pulled from the allo match if you match osteo makes people forgo the osteo match all together. Just something to consider

 

[OSUdoc08]

For IM, FP, and Peds matching is pretty easy regardless of MD or DO. There are plenty of programs to choose from and spots are plentiful in both. The problem w/DO residencies is that they are generally in less desireable locations. I think there might be 1 or 2 DO peds residencies in all of socal.

As for EM - there aren't that many quality EM residencies there @ level 1 trama centers. Most of the people I know who are trying to match ER are trying to get into the allo programs as they have a pretty good history of taking DOs. On top of that, osteo ER programs (surprise surprise) aren't in the prime locations people want to be at.

The less desireable locations combined w/the fact that you get pulled from the allo match if you match osteo makes people forgo the osteo match all together. Just something to consider

Exactly my point.

 

[priu]

Thanks, great info! Still haven't decided which route to go.

 

[PCOM_08]

I don't even know where to begin with my response. I breezed through all of the responses and here are my thoughts based on that - if I misread something, I'm sure I will be corrected so I won't even say to correct me if I'm wrong. I was accepted to several MD schools and DO schools and I chose DO school. I DO NOT feel that DO students get an inferior education and in NO WAY have I ever felt that I was receiving less of a medical education than my MD counterparts. As a matter of fact, in speaking with MD students in other states as well as PA it seems to me that our clinical skills class is actually more advanced and taught much earlier than at other schools, including MD schools. In addition, I have to add..even though someone else already commented on it...there are ABSOLUTELY no closed doors to DO students in ANY residency program whatsoever..whether it be dermatology, radiology, neurosurgery, whatever...we can do it all. I am thrilled with my choice as a DO student and I in no way feel that I will have to spend 'the rest of my life explaining what a DO is' because I feel that the community is not as closed-minded as they once were and they shouldn't be. In addition, to the comment that MD's have more of a knowledge than DO's is perposterous! How much different can the education be-we learn the same pathology, the same biochemical mechinisms, the same pharmacology AND to even further my point, we are taught by both MDs and DOs. I would love to discuss our courses with an MD student and see all of these differences that are always alluded to. In fact, I know MANY students who performed as well or better on the USMLE than on the COMLEX - so what does that show? I must admit that as a DO student I have some sort of bias , however, I feel it's my duty to clear up misconceptions and rumors and to clear up the idea that we receive less of an education or are at a disadvantage in any way, shape, or form. And, I must say, that I do not feel that just because the MCAT scores and GPA requirements may be lower that we are allowed to pass a course with a lower criteria than an MD student-that is crazy. Osteopathic medical schools should not only be viewed as inferior fallback career choices -they are fully respected and accredited medical schools that deserve to be seen that way