GPA/Institution Considerations

[MGFuns]

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I know this has been covered before, and I've read a few threads but I am eager to hear some opinions...

Obviously GPA is very important. I look at a lot of schools that post average GPAs of 3.80+, with many 4.0s applying, etc.

Here's my question. I'm an undergrad at Dartmouth. I don't care what you heard about grade inflation at the ivys, but medians in a lot of the science classes are B's or B-'s...But a lot of kids get shaken out of the sciences very early on, so you're dealing with a focused group. It really takes a lot of work to do well...

I'm running about a 3.60 and rounding out my sophomore year...

I'm running about a 3.50 science GPA as well but I'm a chem/bio major...

Dartmouth claims that sooner or later 90% of dartmouth grad's get into medical school...

I am also aware, regardless of what you tell me, that these classes are a lot easier at other schools. Our orgo tests are harder than MIT's (or at the least, equal)...we checked! My brother did a postbac at a local SUNY school and walked away with like a 3.90 in the science classes...

So is the dartmouth name worth anything?? Do they know that it is actually harder to do well here? Or is it really just hype? If the 90% statistic is correct it would suggest that it does actually help quite a bit...

Opinions?

Thanks!

Also I'll add that this GPA at this stage in the 4 year degree renders me in the top 35% of the class, but that's coupled with a lot of kids from easy majors...so I figure that the average pre-med GPA here must either consistent or lower than what I am running...

Really I guess I am curious, is someone with good MCATs and like a 3.3 from an ivy getting in places?

 

[FrazzleSnazzle]

Well, this is just anecdotal but I interviewed at quite a few highly ranked (read: top 20) med schools this past application cycle and, at pretty all of them, I would say that either an outright majority or at least plurality of the interviewees there were ivy grads, Dartmouth included, so the "ivy factor" definitely helps.

That 90% figure still seems kind of iffy though. Do they mean 90% of all students who start out as pre-med or just 90% of the students who actually survive up to the point of actually survive to the point of applying. Because those are two very different things.

 

[CoolWhipp]

On the bit about your ochem tests being harder than MIT's tests, it would be irrelevant to compare questions asked. It always depends on the curve. Even if you knew the curve, it would also depend on how they graded you. So there is no real way to compare tests.

IMO, ivy league students are always favored.

The % gets in medical school stats from your undergrad is, to me, pretty useless.

 

[MGFuns]

@frazzlesnazzle

The 90% is completed pre-meds who list I guess declare medical school pursuit as an intention of theirs upon graduation if they are not already accepted. They shake a good number of kids out of the pre-med scene very quickly there...PS big congrats on Columbia P&S...awesome place to be. You know where you're going to be living? I'm from just a little ways north of there (20 min) on the saw mill...

@CoolWhipp

I know just looking at the exams isn't fair comparison...I guess i was trying to retaliate a little against the easy ivy claims...I mean I know like some of the humanities classes I have taken have been like B for breathing type classes but it's not all like that...

 

[Chemdude]

I think the name gives you a real bonus. If you check out medapps and analyze how well the application went for Ivy students you will notice that they get accepted with much lowers GPAs than the average applicant.

Cornell says that 70% of Cornellians get in somewhere. 13% of applicants with GPAs between 3.4 and 3.6 got accepted to top 20 schools. 25% of applicants with GPAs between 3.6 and 3.8 got accepted to a top 20 school. 65% of applicants with GPAs between 3.8 and 4.0 got accepted to top 20 schools.

I am sure the percentages are higher for HYP students. You get the point...

Edit:

Let me include some more relevant data:

GPA(% of applicants getting into at least one MD school):
3.9+(92%)
3.8-3.89(93%)
3.76-3.6(83%)
3.59-3.4(63%)
3.39-3.2(39%)
<3.19(0%)

 

[TexasPhysician]

Obviously gpa/MCAT have the most weight.

It is hard to grade how much weight a NAME school has. It is VERY subjective and very difficult to get good data on.

I would estimate by what I've seen that NAME plays a small consideration assuming you also have the numbers to back it up. There are PLENTY of students in my class from schools I've never heard of.....but they have great numbers. The students at my school from Ivy programs also had great numbers. With an average class gpa of 3.7 at my school, we obviously don't have a good deal of low scoring Ivy students dragging the numbers down.

Do the best you can with your gpa and if the Dartmouth education is truly worth while, you will overperform on your MCAT.

 

[PreMedder]

so I figure that the average pre-med GPA here must either consistent or lower than what I am running...

well, if that makes you feel better... then... 👍

 

[MGFuns]

well, if that makes you feel better... then... 👍

Not sure if that's serious or sarc...

I'm not really worried or going crazy or trying to cover my ass here...I'm just genuinely curious...between the claims that d-mouth makes and the GPA values...and or the trends in general

 

[BrainBuff]

Dartmouth's claim is correct. The other 4 schools which have the highest percentage of premeds being accepted into med school are Brown, Harvard, Princeton and Yale. (This information is provided by the schools themselves).

If you noticed, they are all ivies. The students may be very driven, but the name of the school also helps. If you look at any ivy med school, close to 50% of the M1 class comes from undergrad ivies!

 

[PreMedder]

Not sure if that's serious or sarc...

Serious, bro. Because the average pre-med GPA there cannot be higher than yours, duh.

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

I think the name gives you a real bonus. If you check out medapps and analyze how well the application went for Ivy students you will notice that they get accepted with much lowers GPAs than the average applicant.

Cornell says that 70% of Cornellians get in somewhere. 13% of applicants with GPAs between 3.4 and 3.6 got accepted to top 20 schools. 25% of applicants with GPAs between 3.6 and 3.8 got accepted to a top 20 school. 65% of applicants with GPAs between 3.8 and 4.0 got accepted to top 20 schools.

I am sure the percentages are higher for HYP students. You get the point...

Edit:

Let me include some more relevant data:

GPA(% of applicants getting into at least one MD school):
3.9+(92%)
3.8-3.89(93%)
3.76-3.6(83%)
3.59-3.4(63%)
3.39-3.2(39%)
<3.19(0%)

Are the GPA cals you doing is for overall GPA or Sci GPA only

If so I have a 3.54 sci gpa and a 3.6 overall 😀

 

[morning]

Dartmouth's claim is correct. The other 4 schools which have the highest percentage of premeds being accepted into med school are Brown, Harvard, Princeton and Yale. (This information is provided by the schools themselves).

If you noticed, they are all ivies. The students may be very driven, but the name of the school also helps. If you look at any ivy med school, close to 50% of the M1 class comes from undergrad ivies!

There's probably some selection bias going on here, too. Maybe ivy league students are more likely to apply to ivy league medical schools.

 

[docelh]

mdapplicants.com

Plug in your school and your numbers. It's far more objective and useful than the useless opinion of the majority of pre-meds here.

 

[JJMrK]

A "B" median is grade inflation IMO.

You 3.6 is not as impressive as a 3.9 from NowheresVille College. It is more impressive than a 3.6 from NVC.

 

[BrainBuff]

There's probably some selection bias going on here, too. Maybe ivy league students are more likely to apply to ivy league medical schools.

Definitely. I agree with you as well.

And this is a little bit off the specific topic, but according to Residency Program Directors, the applicant's medical school is almost as important as being chosen AOA during the med students application for residency programs. Interestingly, the lowest ranked factor in importance for residency admission is "having performed research as a medical student".

I have always thought that premed applicants may be viewed in a similar way by med school adcoms.

http://journals.lww.com/academicmed..._Criteria_for_Residency__Results_of_a.24.aspx

 

[Chemdude]

A "B" median is grade inflation IMO.

You 3.6 is not as impressive as a 3.9 from NowheresVille College. It is more impressive than a 3.6 from NVC.

It isn't grade inflation because a B-student from an Ivy institution is likely to be an A-student at NVC. Getting a B in a class in which everyone is as capable as you is more difficult than getting a B in a class in which you are top 10% in terms of capability.

BTW, I don't have empirical data to prove the above statement; it's just my opnion.

 

[coolstine]

I had a 3.9 at a very highly respected non-Ivy and a 3.3 at a Ivy for what it's worth.

 

[Web MD]

A B average in science courses, especially orgo I&II and cell biochem seems a little inflated. I think some of you guys are underestimating the pre-med population at "normal" colleges. It's not like ivy league schools have a monopoly on all of the truly capable and serious pre-meds. I'd guess the pre-med pool is fairly comparable between ivy and regular colleges by second year - neither one is going to have 50-60 business majors who got bored and decided to take o-chem putting you automatically in the top 10% at a state school.

 

[anbuitachi]

I think the name gives you a real bonus. If you check out medapps and analyze how well the application went for Ivy students you will notice that they get accepted with much lowers GPAs than the average applicant.

Cornell says that 70% of Cornellians get in somewhere. 13% of applicants with GPAs between 3.4 and 3.6 got accepted to top 20 schools. 25% of applicants with GPAs between 3.6 and 3.8 got accepted to a top 20 school. 65% of applicants with GPAs between 3.8 and 4.0 got accepted to top 20 schools.

I am sure the percentages are higher for HYP students. You get the point...

Edit:

Let me include some more relevant data:

GPA(% of applicants getting into at least one MD school):
3.9+(92%)
3.8-3.89(93%)
3.76-3.6(83%)
3.59-3.4(63%)
3.39-3.2(39%)
<3.19(0%)

Just looking at those GPA numbers are a bit misleading. Ivy league MCAT scores tend to be higher. Plus average Cornell kids apply to 19 schools. So if you think about it a 3.9+ has a 8% chance of not getting anywhere out of 19... pretty bad

 

[harvman11]

2 things... people in "easy" majors who chose them because they're easy (not due to genuine interest) generally aren't getting great grades, they don't care and are likely going through the motions, so it's unlikely that the majority of people ahead of you are simply in easier majors.

Also, I do think the Dartmouth name will help you out, at least in everything except the very top schools. Even then it will help you more than someone applying from X State, but at top schools a large portion of their applicants will be from Harvard/Yale/Princeton/MIT/Duke/Stanford/etc., and those do have a bit more recognition/prestige.

That said, don't rely on school names to carry you. you should aim to be at or above the averages for GPA at whatever school you apply to, and if you don't do well on the MCAT then you have no argument for "well my school's harder".

 

[morning]

Definitely. I agree with you as well.

And this is a little bit off the specific topic, but according to Residency Program Directors, the applicant's medical school is almost as important as being chosen AOA during the med students application for residency programs. Interestingly, the lowest ranked factor in importance for residency admission is "having performed research as a medical student".

I have always thought that premed applicants may be viewed in a similar way by med school adcoms.

http://journals.lww.com/academicmed..._Criteria_for_Residency__Results_of_a.24.aspx

That's deceptive, because both AOA membership and school prestige are ranked way down the list. They may be roughly equivalent in terms of how residency directors favor them, but they're not the most significant criteria by any means.

 

[JJMrK]

It isn't grade inflation because a B-student from an Ivy institution is likely to be an A-student at NVC. Getting a B in a class in which everyone is as capable as you is more difficult than getting a B in a class in which you are top 10% in terms of capability.

BTW, I don't have empirical data to prove the above statement; it's just my opnion.

Fair enough. When the average in a course is an 80 or 85 though, that's very high, and what is traditionally defined as grade inflation.

It sounds like you are acknowledging that an 80-85 average is very high, but taking issue with the definition of grade inflation.

 

[BrainBuff]

That's deceptive, because both AOA membership and school prestige are ranked way down the list. They may be roughly equivalent in terms of how residency directors favor them, but they're not the most significant criteria by any means.

Re-read my post. I never said that those two factors were the most important, but that AOA membership and med school attended were "almost" equivalent in terms of importance. And everyone always makes a big deal out of AOA.

My other point was that the importance of research is always exaggerated on these forums. And it was the LOWEST ranked factor by Residency Program Directors.

Where is the deception?

 

[BrainBuff]

Fair enough. When the average in a course is an 80 or 85 though, that's very high, and what is traditionally defined as grade inflation.

It sounds like you are acknowledging that an 80-85 average is very high, but taking issue with the definition of grade inflation.

If you have a group of similarly brilliant students, why would any average would have to be considered too high?

If everyone knows the material and scores 100 on a test, what are you going to do? Arbitrarily begin to assign Bs and Cs?

 

[STAT EKG]

As far as the ivy name helping you out, it probably will. However, I believe the difference between ivys and top state schools isn't so significant. When I think ivys I think old money and elitism, and maybe that's just me, but I feel like "legacy" spots (not very grade/score-dependent) would be more available in ivys than at state schools.

Almost all of the kids I know who went ivy attended private school pre-undergrad. Is that something notable? Maybe, maybe not.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/top-100-feeder-high-schools-to-the-ivy-league

Something that nobody mentioned is that many ivy-capable students choose state schools over ivys because well...ivys are private and very expensive. If I had a choice between a full-ride at a state school and an ivy that was 40K+ per/year, there's absolutely no way I'd choose the ivy. I feel like this is true for A LOT of people.

 

[guyski79]

As far as the ivy name helping you out, it probably will. However, I believe the difference between ivys and top state schools isn't so significant. When I think ivys I think old money and elitism, and maybe that's just me, but I feel like "legacy" spots (not very grade/score-dependent) would be more available in ivys than at state schools.

Almost all of the kids I know who went ivy attended private school pre-undergrad. Is that something notable? Maybe, maybe not.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/top-100-feeder-high-schools-to-the-ivy-league

Something that nobody mentioned is that many ivy-capable students choose state schools over ivys because well...ivys are private and very expensive. If I had a choice between a full-ride at a state school and an ivy that was 40K+ per/year, there's absolutely no way I'd choose the ivy. I feel like this is true for A LOT of people.

Ah but therein lies the irony of such schools--they *are* expensive but also have massive endowments.

And massive endowments mean very generous financial aid. Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Yale, etc. give free rides to people whose family makes less than $100,000 I believe.

 

[mspeedwagon]

This is what the pre-med advisor at Brown told me. Ivy League students can easily add 0.1 to their GPA when comparing it to the averages. However, students should not assume more than a 0.2 difference (and 0.2 was stretching it). So, if the average admitted GPA for a medical school is 3.7 (then a 3.6 from Brown, and I'd assume the Ivy League and other top schools, would make you competitive at that school).

So the Ivy helps slightly. A 3.9 from the Ivy is better than a 3.9 from a non-Ivy/non-Top school. That said, a 3.6 from Brown, is not better than a 3.9 from said non-Ivy/non-top school.

This is based on her decades of experience and work with the Brown medical school admissions officer. I have no reason not to believe her (and it seems to make sense if you look at mdapps).

 

[snorlax]

Ah but therein lies the irony of such schools--they *are* expensive but also have massive endowments.

And massive endowments mean very generous financial aid. Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Yale, etc. give free rides to people whose family makes less than $100,000 I believe.

I believe the vast majority of the people STAT_EKG is referring to have families with income over $100,000 in which the financial aid is hardly generous.

 

[Neurovibes]

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[guyski79]

I believe the vast majority of the people STAT_EKG is referring to have families with income over $100,000 in which the financial aid is hardly generous.

I see your point.

But I did just use the financial aid calculator on the Stanford financial aid site and found that a student with a single parent making $120,000 can still expect to receive $21,000 (almost 1/2 tuition) in grants and scholarship money.

I think my point is that cost is certainly a factor in school choice, but tuition price-tag by itself doesn't give you a whole lot of information.

 

[STAT EKG]

Ah but therein lies the irony of such schools--they *are* expensive but also have massive endowments.

And massive endowments mean very generous financial aid. Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Yale, etc. give free rides to people whose family makes less than $100,000 I believe.

I understand that and figured someone would make this point

However, I'd respond with this http://www.collegeconfidential.com/dean/archives/000142.htm

While extremely beneficial for many people, this kinda snubs a lot of the middle class.

For the record, I'm definitely biased toward state schools because I got into ivy undergrads, but wasn't granted the aid I would need to attend. Also I went to public school as there was absolutely no way my parents were footing the bill for "X academy", "Y collegiate", "Z prep School", etc. for pre-undergrad. The kids from those schools definitely had an easier time getting into ivys (kind of like students from ivys have an easier time getting into ivy med). This may have been due in part to better students at the institution, but I know that the private school perks (small class sizes, much more attention, highly-paid/top faculty, etc) as well as the private school name - which I'm sure helps to some degree.

I guess what my point boils down to is that much of the prestige from ivys is bought and I really don't think there's so much difference between ivys and top state schools in terms of talent (Michigan, UCs, UNC, and UVA come to mind and I'm sure there are many many others).

 

[Web MD]

Like STAT_EKG said, even if an ivy league school offers me 20k based on need, there are very few and sometimes no scholarships based solely on merit at ivy schools. So I'm stuck with 20k in tuition + housing +meals each year, and say I have 2-3 siblings who will also be attending college at roughly the same time as me. Suddenly that 20k kind of seems like a joke when state schools or other non-ivy private schools offer free rides.

 

[Penner]

A "B" median is grade inflation IMO.

You 3.6 is not as impressive as a 3.9 from NowheresVille College. It is more impressive than a 3.6 from NVC.

I disagree. A 3.6 from Dartmouth is way more impressive than a 3.9 from Sucky State University. The OP could probably get a 3.9 blindfolded at SSU.

The OP is smarter than the average Dartmouth kid according to his GPA, and I would say the average Dartmouth kid is comparable to the Sucky State University kid with a 3.9.

 

[Penner]

WOAAAAAAHHHH WHERE DID YOU GET THAT

I would say it is quite the opposite... I had an interview with a lady who graduated from Princeton for undergraduate program. This is what happened to her. She had like solid B's and maybe a few C's and some good amount of A's (she obviously did not want to tell me her GPA)... She did geophysics... afterwards, she came to Canada, specifically do to cognitive science and/or teaching at Ottawa University and Carleton University (in ottawa)... this is what happened to her... Ottawa University has been in touch with Princeton and knows the grading scheme... they actually deflated her grades A LOT and thereby rejected her on the basis of her true gpa (she did not meet minimum requirements)... If some unknown university (unknown to a lot of americans I should say) knows of such drastically curved universities such as the ivy league schools, then you know for sure no one sympathizes with you when you are getting a B at an ivy because a B at an ivy basically means you are going to get a C or lower at an institution such as McGill University or University of Toronto, or other very top notch universities in the states like UNC, NYU, other schools with just as equally tough programs.

Note**I am not generalizing this case with the single princeton interviewer, she then proceeded on listing her graduating friends from Yale and their experience with grade deflation and ivy league schools. I also have a few friends myself who are graduated and applied to PhD and MBA programs who told me of their experiences with grade deflation.

And, to be frank with you, I do not think ivy league schools can AFFORD to lose their student body... if they did not inflate the way they do, who is going to come to their school? How do you think the alumni will feel and then proceed on not donating the precious funding for these privatized ivy universities...

think about it... education system is a huge business, and you're falling for the bogus "Getting a B at harvard is like getting straight A's at any other Nowhere-Rando University.

Just to give you some personal details that I have noted while being a student at McGill University- 3 of my close friends rejected Yale, Columbia, and Dartmouth to come to McGill... they could have easily went there (money was not a problem) and yet they came to McGill University. 2/3 of them were from the US. The other one was from Toronto. There are plenty more of cases like that at McGill University... So, there you go.

Last time I checked, Harvard has about 10x as much money as any state school in the country.

Btw, you think Princeton has grade inflation?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=grade+deflation

What's that first link about?

You clearly have never taken a class at Princeton if you think a B at Princeton is equal to a C at UNC. Let me guess - you go to a state school and don't want to feel so inferior to the kids who get better grades than you at harder institutions? 😉

Furthermore, Princeton's applicant pool rose by about 100% since they implemented grade deflation in 2004:
http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/widgets/expand/images/graphic/1038/

People don't apply to top schools so they can get easy grades. They go for the education, the prestige, the faculty, the resources, and opportunities they present. They also go so they won't be surrounded by people such as Neurovibes, who clearly belong at state schools.

 

[snorlax]

Last time I checked, Harvard has about 10x as much money as any state school in the country.

Btw, you think Princeton has grade inflation?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=grade+deflation

What's that first link about?

You clearly have never taken a class at Princeton if you think a B at Princeton is equal to a C at UNC. Let me guess - you go to a state school and don't want to feel so inferior to the kids who get better grades than you at harder institutions? 😉

Hilarious that you would point out an article like that. 35% A's????

Princeton may be the less inflated of the super-inflated, but that says nothing about inflation in relation to state schools.

I've never been in a class that gave out more than 15% A's. Most classes are ~10% A's. I don't turn around and look at 10 people and say "Wow only 3 of us are getting A's!" If I did that I would have to say, "only 1 of us is getting an A"! And the average weighted GPA for incoming freshmen at my school is 4.34 and that includes athletes and ELC students, so it's not like I am competing against idiots.

 

[Penner]

Hilarious that you would point out an article like that. 35% A's????

Princeton may be the less inflated of the super-inflated, but that says nothing about inflation in relation to state schools.

I've never been in a class that gave out more than 15% A's. Most classes are ~10% A's. I don't turn around and look at 10 people and say "Wow only 3 of us are getting A's!" If I did that I would have to say, "only 1 of us is getting an A"! And the average weighted GPA for incoming freshmen at my school is 4.34 and that includes athletes and ELC students, so it's not like I am competing against idiots.

35% A's and A-'s (so about 15% get A's, 20% get A-'s). Princeton's average GPA is 3.28, guess what UC Berkeley's is?
http://gradeinflation.com/Ucberkeley.html

So you're saying UC Berkeley's grades are inflated?

What school do you go to, let's look up your average GPA.

 

[STAT EKG]

Last time I checked, Harvard has about 10x as much money as any state school in the country.

Btw, you think Princeton has grade inflation?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=grade+deflation

What's that first link about?

You clearly have never taken a class at Princeton if you think a B at Princeton is equal to a C at UNC. Such ignorance in the world these days

The first link was to show that out of the 100 schools that feed the most people into ivys, 94 are private. Granted, they say a majority of students at ivys are from public shool (though that majority is on the order of 55-65%:45-35%, which is still heavily favored in terms of privates because there are many many more public schools than private schools in the country).

I think the B Princeton = C UNC was directed at someone else. I would say B Princeton is ~ B UNC (maybe B+ = B)

whoops, replying to a post directed at someone else

 

[morning]

I disagree. A 3.6 from Dartmouth is way more impressive than a 3.9 from Sucky State University. The OP could probably get a 3.9 blindfolded at SSU.

The OP is smarter than the average Dartmouth kid according to his GPA, and I would say the average Dartmouth kid is comparable to the Sucky State University kid with a 3.9.

This is so wildly untrue for medical school admissions purposes that it's almost comical. There are schools who won't even look at you with a 3.6, never mind where you attended undergrad.

 

[Neurovibes]

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[Neurovibes]

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[Chemdude]

I think that we should redefine grade inflation. Grade inflation should be defined as the disproportionate representation of high grades at a school. What is disproportionate representation? Disproportionate representation only holds true if a school is handing out grades like candy;not everyone getting an A deserves an A. What if 35% of students at Princeton actually deserved A's?

Since students that attend Ivy institutions are likely to come from the top 10% of their high school class, shouldn't they be more likely to receive A's at any institution?

 

[Penner]

This is so wildly untrue for medical school admissions purposes that it's almost comical. There are schools who won't even look at you with a 3.6, never mind where you attended undergrad.

I agree - I guess I meant "should be more impressive" instead of "is more impressive."

 

[Penner]

I feel like the fact that snorlax is viewing this thread and isn't replying is a sign that he goes to UC Berkeley, and can't say s*** about Princeton's grading policies after learning that UC Berkeley has the same average GPA as Princeton.

 

[Penner]

Hey Penner,

I said I go to McGill... for your information, it's one of the best publicly funded universities (All the top universities of canada are funded by government)...

That fact that I just stated what a Princeton Graduate (though, albeit, she interviewed me when she was 34... so obviously she was out of princeton for about 12 years) was telling me face to face during an interview, should be given some credit. She would not say such things if she had a reason. I asked her. She answered. If you want the exact date of the interview and time I can give you that to make it more accrediting... if you are stooping down to the generalized websites, then you Sir are a fool who will believe anything, except things from main sources LIKE A HUMAN BEING.

You see, just because you want to defend a school, and get all emotional, that's perfectly fine. But if you cannot take truth that is fine. Notice when they started that policy and please note the number of STUDENTS that attend princeton.

I got a place where the MNI was built, a place where neuroscience and neurosurgery are at the frontier... if you want to stoop down to name calling and getting all stuck-up I can do the very same and boast about schools. Just cause a person goes to a state-school, doesn't mean he/she is an idiot. By the way, canada has provinces... get your facts straight and learn to read a post fully.

This isn't high school anymore, open your head when viewing arguments. I read yours thoroughly, I deserve some respect if you want to try to argue.

Done.

Alright, I retract what I said about you personally, but I still think your statements about Princeton's B's being on par with McGill's C's as absurd. I'm sure Princeton students by any measure are smarter than McGill students on average, and the average GPA at McGill is probably not much lower (if lower at all) than Princeton's. So to claim that Princeton's grades are more inflated than McGill's is just illogical.

 

[snorlax]

35% A's and A-'s (so about 15% get A's, 20% get A-'s). Princeton's average GPA is 3.28, guess what UC Berkeley's is?
http://gradeinflation.com/Ucberkeley.html

So you're saying UC Berkeley's grades are inflated?

What school do you go to, let's look up your average GPA.

I don't know too much about UC Berkeley. I know they're always whining about their grading. I go to UCLA. I guess our average GPA is lower. Personally in the department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, the average GPA is ~2.7. And in my classes, when I say 10-15% A's, that includes A-'s.

However, there is a huge discrepancy in skill among the students here, so it is appropriate to have a greater standard deviation and less A's. But, a straight A student here would probably be a straight A student at an Ivy, where even more A's are given out.

 

[Penner]

Also,

If you are angry that the truth hurts about grade inflation, then go here is a tissue for your "misfortunate" issue.

Just cause you pay 50000$ for the whole shabang of networking and I pay 3000$ to get just as good of a network at McGill, which by the way is ranked 18th in the world right now, doesn't mean squat. My professors collaborate with your professors, and we are just the same. The only thing is, I don't have to worry about finance or my image, thankfully universities Such as mcgill have such a nice, open-minded, brilliant student body that people can be who there are... whereas I have seen many of my brilliant friends who went to ivy league schools and get possessed by such terrible inadequate mannerisms that turn them into stuck-up, pretentious, boasting, fools who believe they will change the world...

Next time you want to diss someone about a state school, read forbes magazine, economist, and the new yorker... many of the columnist and the topical guests that are being written on so happen to be just normal men and women who some when to some great schools, be it majority non-ivy and obviously some great caliber students who went to ivy.

I think this discussion is done Penner. Narrow-mindedness is not needed in such a world. If you want such a world, please, go to a country-club.

Done.

I actually pay almost nothing for my Ivy league education - it's called financial aid. (hint: I probably come from a much lower income family than you do)

You're calling me narrow minded because my point of view is different from yours? That seems more narrow minded than anything I've said.

Oh, and both Steve Forbes (President of Forbes Magazine) and David Remnick (Editor of The New Yorker) went to Princeton by the way. Same as 3 of our supreme court justices. And who was the last US President who didn't come from an Ivy League background?

 

[Neurovibes]

.

 

[snorlax]

I feel like the fact that snorlax is viewing this thread and isn't replying is a sign that he goes to UC Berkeley, and can't say s*** about Princeton's grading policies after learning that UC Berkeley has the same average GPA as Princeton.

LOL please do not associate me with UC Berkeley students. I am so turned off by all their recent sob stories.

 

[Penner]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

here is a so-called "man" who feels that such institutions like Princeton are "harder"...

May I remind you "Sir" that many of these institutions have similar education system and content to that of any other state school. I would like to say that of the 10 people who graduated from McGill Mathematics, 5 applied to Princeton Graduate Programs and got in. You think my school is inferior... I spoke to a recent princeton graduate who got rejected from McGill Physics Program... he couldn't even get into Princeton's Physics program, and it's his freaking alma mater... obviously this is one case and I can't generalize... but neither can you... your institution also has professors who didn't graduate from Princeton itself... sure some professors did, but there is a hefty majority that graduated from universities such as STATE SCHOOLS and STATE SCHOOLS FROM OTHER FOREIGN INSTITUTIONS and even other random schools that you probably don't even hear of. Heard of Belgrade University? Ecole Normale Superior? Many professors that give the so-called "higher quality education" at ivy league schools say this because they give enough funding to professors from other schools to come and teach their students, which is perfectly fine, but their are equally good professors in state-schools who these, what you seem to be claiming "super professors" are relying on for collaboration and therefore create a stream of networking and equally good education elsewhere.

There is certain pros and cons for each university, and obviously there are great benefits to going to ivy league schools, and that huge benefit is social cohesion, selective class, and huge networking opportunities that, albeit, surpass some of the other tier schools....

Yeah I do believe Princeton's classes are harder than state school classes.

Except the rest of your post was completely tangential & mostly just anecdotal evidence. 👍

 

[Penner]

LOL please do not associate me with UC Berkeley students. I am so turned off by all their recent sob stories.

Haha, well you said ELC... so I'm guessing it's UCLA then?

Alright, UCLA has a tiny bit lower GPA than Princeton (3.20), but still not that big of a difference to say UCLA's grade deflated and Princeton's grade inflated.

According to this:
http://www.newuniversity.org/2009/1...-your-a’s-and-b’s-the-weight-of-grades-at-uc/

UCLA gives 47% A's and A-'s.