GPA question

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ForeverDad

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Hey guys,

I’ve been lurking for a LONGGG time. Finally mustered up the courage to post lol. I appreciate any guidance or direction that comes my way.

Okay, just got out of the military about a year ago and I’m going to school full time.

-15 years ago, I went to a community college, completed 31 credits and left with a 2.32 GPA. Completely unfocused, immature, etc.

-Fast forward present time, still immature (according to my wife) but now I’m super focused. I’m halfway done with the semester and have a 4.0 in all of my classes. I expect this trend to continue.

HOWEVER, based on GPA calculators, it looks like the best possible GPA I could attain with 4.0’s until I graduate is a 3.5 - (4.0s until I graduate will be tough, but you get the idea)

So here’s where I am looking for guidance - am I capped at a 3.5 because of my GPA from 15 years ago? Is there any other ways I could boost my GPA? I like to take things day by day, but also look to you guys for guidance so I can have a realistic game plan for the future. Once again, thanks for any guidance, it’s greatly appreciated.

**Looking to go the MD route, specializing in psychiatry in hopes to work with veterans**

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Hey guys,

I’ve been lurking for a LONGGG time. Finally mustered up the courage to post lol. I appreciate any guidance or direction that comes my way.

Okay, just got out of the military about a year ago and I’m going to school full time.

-15 years ago, I went to a community college, completed 31 credits and left with a 2.32 GPA. Completely unfocused, immature, etc.

-Fast forward present time, still immature (according to my wife) but now I’m super focused. I’m halfway done with the semester and have a 4.0 in all of my classes. I expect this trend to continue.

HOWEVER, based on GPA calculators, it looks like the best possible GPA I could attain with 4.0’s until I graduate is a 3.5 - (4.0s until I graduate will be tough, but you get the idea)

So here’s where I am looking for guidance - am I capped at a 3.5 because of my GPA from 15 years ago? Is there any other ways I could boost my GPA? I like to take things day by day, but also look to you guys for guidance so I can have a realistic game plan for the future. Once again, thanks for any guidance, it’s greatly appreciated.

**Looking to go the MD route, specializing in psychiatry in hopes to work with veterans**

First: As a fellow veteran, thank you for your service.

What state did you take your courses 15 years ago and what state are you currently enrolled in? A majority of veterans (including myself until very recently) obtained residency in TX and went to school there. TX has what’s called an academic fresh start (AFS) of which once you apply to a TX state school, anything 10 yrs or older grade wise is forgiven. This would eliminate any worry you have from previous years.

College For All Texans: Academic Fresh Start

If not in TX and no plans to move, many institutes (especially DO) will take into consideration your academic year gap(s) and focus more on the you “now” rather than the you “then.” Being a veteran will also pan out in your favor when explaining the sudden change in grades as long as you stay focus and stay on top of your GPA, volunteering, etc.
 
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Unfortunately, my state of residence (PA) doesn’t have something like that. I was hoping to take the MD route. What is the GPA requirement to not be auto screened?
 
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Each school has it's own threshold for autoscreening GPAs but schools do look at GPA trends not just cumulative GPA. If all your poor grades are 15 years ago and you have stellar grades recently, schools will factor that in. This whole forum is full of people who successfully got into medical school with "youthful indiscretions". Keep up the good work, do well on the MCAT, pursue interesting ECs/service endeavors and expose yourself to clinical settings. You'll do fine.
 
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Each school has it's own threshold for autoscreening GPAs but schools do look at GPA trends not just cumulative GPA. If all your poor grades are 15 years ago and you have stellar grades recently, schools will factor that in. This whole forum is full of people who successfully got into medical school with "youthful indiscretions". Keep up the good work, do well on the MCAT, pursue interesting ECs/service endeavors and expose yourself to clinical settings. You'll do fine.

Thanks NTF. Is there a particular forum I could find these success stories that you’ve mentioned?
 
Schools look at grade trends. Admissions officers are also human. They know that 15 years is a long time and if you are getting much better grades now then the student you are now is not the student from 15 years ago.

Having said that, there is no grade forgiveness unless you qualify for one of those fresh start programs mentioned earlier but not all of us can pack our bags and move to Texas.

Since you eventually want psychiatry, you really should look at the DO route where the focus is mostly primary care specialties. You would get more love from DO programs with upper trends than you would from most every MD programs where competition is stiff. To put it into perspective, MD programs will get career changers who excelled 15 years ago and are excelling going back to school today.

Right now, I would honestly tell you to just finish up your work and get an MCAT score and then worry about all this stuff after that. Those prereqs are hard and not every professor will hand out A's for orgo, physics, or gen chem.

I would also take a lot of the stories you find on this site with a grain of salt. This is an anonymous forum. 95% of the pre-meds that post here will not go to medical school and just troll these boards for entertainment purposes.

If you're serious and you want to do this, take the advice from some of the adcoms here. @Goro always has neutral advice that would be echoed by any admissions staff member if you were to meet them face to face.

I've pointed this out in another post. Try to look at each step of the journey as a checkpoint with a medical school acceptance as the checkered flag. This is a race run at marathon speed.
 
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Schools look at grade trends. Admissions officers are also human. They know that 15 years is a long time and if you are getting much better grades now then the student you are now is not the student from 15 years ago.

Having said that, there is no grade forgiveness unless you qualify for one of those fresh start programs mentioned earlier but not all of us can pack our bags and move to Texas.

Since you eventually want psychiatry, you really should look at the DO route where the focus is mostly primary care specialties. You would get more love from DO programs with upper trends than you would from most every MD programs where competition is stiff. To put it into perspective, MD programs will get career changers who excelled 15 years ago and are excelling going back to school today.

Right now, I would honestly tell you to just finish up your work and get an MCAT score and then worry about all this stuff after that. Those prereqs are hard and not every professor will hand out A's for orgo, physics, or gen chem.

I would also take a lot of the stories you find on this site with a grain of salt. This is an anonymous forum. 95% of the pre-meds that post here will not go to medical school and just troll these boards for entertainment purposes.

If you're serious and you want to do this, take the advice from some of the adcoms here. @Goro always has neutral advice that would be echoed by any admissions staff member if you were to meet them face to face.

I've pointed this out in another post. Try to look at each step of the journey as a checkpoint with a medical school acceptance as the checkered flag. This is a race run at marathon speed.

Thank you for your post. I learned some new things that I wasn’t aware of previously. I appreciate your straight forward response. I don’t expect any professor to hand out A’s, however, I do expect to work my tail off and excel in every class that I take. Maybe it’s the Marine Corps in me, but I imagine doing well in every class that I take. After being in Afghanistan a few times and actually making it back home, nothing really seems too hard. I’m just being honest, not cocky lol.

I do agree with you about taking things step by step. It can get overwhelming thinking about the entire journey. However, I’d be lying if I said I didn’t think about the road ahead. Being a dad/husband/veteran, I try my best to have some sort of way forward no matter how premature it might be.

Yeah, lol - I tend to take everything I read with a grain of salt anyways so it works out. I did read that about DO programs so it’s refreshing to hear it from someone else. I also read that I should apply to both MD/DO just to cast a wider net. However, at the end of the day, the goal is to get into medical school whether it be MD or DO. Some may chastise for saying that, but am I wrong? My goal is to become a doctor and help people through my field.

Seriously though man, appreciate all the intel you provided. Would you mind if I reached out to you if I ever need any additional guidance? Would mean a lot to me.

I will keep an eye out for @Goro or even reach out if I have any questions.

Thanks again.
 
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So here’s where I am looking for guidance - am I capped at a 3.5 because of my GPA from 15 years ago? Is there any other ways I could boost my GPA?
As mentioned previously, adcoms look at grade trends and if your poor performance was from a decade and a half ago, they're not going to hold it against you. Just keep doing well in your current classes and don't freak out if you get an A- or even a B+ in something. You also need to do very well on the MCAT. Once you have your GPA and MCAT, buy the MSAR and figure out where you can realistically apply.

Some may chastise for saying that, but am I wrong?
Absolutely not wrong. You should definitely apply MD and DO. Psychiatry is becoming very quickly more and more competitive with each passing year so it would behoove you to try to get into an MD program. I still don't understand the DO bias, but it exists. Also, going MD opens more doors to other residencies should you change your mind during med school. I along with many, many of my classmates who had a very strong idea of what we were going to go into completely flipped and are now going into different specialties.

Feel free to PM me with more questions. I'm a non-trad as well.
 
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Hey guys,

I’ve been lurking for a LONGGG time. Finally mustered up the courage to post lol. I appreciate any guidance or direction that comes my way.

Okay, just got out of the military about a year ago and I’m going to school full time.

-15 years ago, I went to a community college, completed 31 credits and left with a 2.32 GPA. Completely unfocused, immature, etc.

-Fast forward present time, still immature (according to my wife) but now I’m super focused. I’m halfway done with the semester and have a 4.0 in all of my classes. I expect this trend to continue.

HOWEVER, based on GPA calculators, it looks like the best possible GPA I could attain with 4.0’s until I graduate is a 3.5 - (4.0s until I graduate will be tough, but you get the idea)

So here’s where I am looking for guidance - am I capped at a 3.5 because of my GPA from 15 years ago? Is there any other ways I could boost my GPA? I like to take things day by day, but also look to you guys for guidance so I can have a realistic game plan for the future. Once again, thanks for any guidance, it’s greatly appreciated.

**Looking to go the MD route, specializing in psychiatry in hopes to work with veterans**
On AMCAS, your first degree shows separately than any other undergrad courses, which will show up as a post-bacc. There will be a clear distinction between your total GPA and postbacc GPA -- so I think it will be fine. Keep up the good work!
 
Apply both MD and DO. The GPA is on the lower side for both, but DO will be more open. Although psych is getting more competitive, it's getting competitive by number more so, not necessarily stats. With that said, regardless of MD or DO, this is where military experience, wanting to work with vets, etc will stick out and make more of a difference. With the merger, everything will be ACGME and MD vs DO won't matter at that point. It may have a slight effect on where you may end up for residency, but that will still largely be based on your step/level scores anyway. Don't lower your chances at becoming a doctor just to chase MD.
 
As mentioned previously, adcoms look at grade trends and if your poor performance was from a decade and a half ago, they're not going to hold it against you. Just keep doing well in your current classes and don't freak out if you get an A- or even a B+ in something. You also need to do very well on the MCAT. Once you have your GPA and MCAT, buy the MSAR and figure out where you can realistically apply.


Absolutely not wrong. You should definitely apply MD and DO. Psychiatry is becoming very quickly more and more competitive with each passing year so it would behoove you to try to get into an MD program. I still don't understand the DO bias, but it exists. Also, going MD opens more doors to other residencies should you change your mind during med school. I along with many, many of my classmates who had a very strong idea of what we were going to go into completely flipped and are now going into different specialties.

Feel free to PM me with more questions. I'm a non-trad as well.

Thank you so much for your response. It’s definitely motivating hearing other people’s success stories. What specialty did you originally want to go into? And what specialty are you actually focusing on now?

I definitely will reach out, thanks for the invitation to do so.
 
On AMCAS, your first degree shows separately than any other undergrad courses, which will show up as a post-bacc. There will be a clear distinction between your total GPA and postbacc GPA -- so I think it will be fine. Keep up the good work!

I’m not sure exactly what you mean by this? When I left school about 15 years ago with a 2.32 GPA, I never went back to finish. This year was the first year since 2004 that I’ve attended college. Can you clarify or maybe I’m just misunderstanding. Thanks in advance.
 
Apply both MD and DO. The GPA is on the lower side for both, but DO will be more open. Although psych is getting more competitive, it's getting competitive by number more so, not necessarily stats. With that said, regardless of MD or DO, this is where military experience, wanting to work with vets, etc will stick out and make more of a difference. With the merger, everything will be ACGME and MD vs DO won't matter at that point. It may have a slight effect on where you may end up for residency, but that will still largely be based on your step/level scores anyway. Don't lower your chances at becoming a doctor just to chase MD.

I like the EGA that you have under your profile pic - semper fi. Yes, best case scenario, keyword best, is that I end up with a 3.5 gpa and that's with very little wiggle room for error. That being said, one of the original questions I had is this: is there anyway that I can help my gpa besides doing well in class? Could I retake some of the classes that didn't do so well in? Also, some of those classes don't even fall under my current program requirements.
 
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I like the EGA that you have under your profile pic - semper fi. Yes, best case scenario, keyword best, is that I end up with a 3.5 gpa and that's with very little wiggle room for error. That being said, one of the original questions I had is this: is there anyway that I can help my gpa besides doing well in class? Could I retake some of the classes that didn't do so well in? Also, some of those classes don't even fall under my current program requirements.

Semper

But nope. DO used to have grade replacement, but as of 1-2 years ago, that is no more. Regardless of where you took the classes or whether or not that were part of your major, electives, a different degree, etc... they all get counted.

^ the only potential exceptions that I know of are 1) what was mentioned regarding being in Texas, 2) grade replacement within the same school you took the classes in the first place if they offer grade replacement - if they dont offer it, then this is off the table.
 
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I’m not sure exactly what you mean by this? When I left school about 15 years ago with a 2.32 GPA, I never went back to finish. This year was the first year since 2004 that I’ve attended college. Can you clarify or maybe I’m just misunderstanding. Thanks in advance.
My bad, I thought you'd graduated so there would be a distinction between first degree and 2nd degree. In any case, if you keep up your grades, I think you will be okay if you get up certainly over 3.0 but preferably to 3.3 or 3.4 with a good MCAT. (Will depend on the school, lots of threads on "schools that reward reinvention."

If you retake classes where you got a bad mark, it would just add into your overall average. Honestly high grades in high level science classes and especially a really strong performance overall (no slips) currently will go really far. It sounds like you're on the right track.

You'll really want a stellar MCAT to show that your current grades reflect your capabilities.
 
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Thank you so much for your response. It’s definitely motivating hearing other people’s success stories. What specialty did you originally want to go into? And what specialty are you actually focusing on now?

I definitely will reach out, thanks for the invitation to do so.
Suffice it to say some of us went from surgery to medicine and others vice versa. The point for you at this stage is to keep an open mind. You can still desire to go into psych, but don't have blinders on to other specialties.
 
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Suffice it to say some of us went from surgery to medicine and others vice versa. The point for you at this stage is to keep an open mind. You can still desire to go into psych, but don't have blinders on to other specialties.

Yeah I agree - I am open minded. Quite honestly, everyone has a plan until they don't.
 
I would not put a ton of stock in the "upward trend" dept. I happen to be a fairly unique case because I applied in-state with a 4.0 (because of AFS) and OOS with a ~ 3.6 (~3.8 BCPM). My "upward trend" was literally 6 years of nothing but straight A's (because I switched majors), including all prereq's (and my grades before that were all B's, but that's another story). Granted, there is some OOS bias against TX residents and some IS bias in favor of Texas residents, though the latter can be discounted significantly from the example as I will explain in a moment. I applied to 10 schools in Tx and received 7 invites.

I applied to ~12 OOS MD schools. Most of these schools had significantly lower stats than all the TX schools that invited me (which is why I say the IS preference can be discounted since I was applying against IS people with higher stats). Almost all of the OOS schools I applied to were private schools that had little to no preference for their IS residents, and most of them had MSAR data that reflected that they had at least some contingent of TX residents in their current classes. There were no "reach" schools on my list. I did not apply to any OOS school where either my GPA or MCAT was not at least in the 25th percentile for the school (and closer to the median for most).

LOR's, EC's, MCAT, personal statement, etc was the same obviously in both scenarios. I received exactly ZERO oos invites.

I know it's anecdotal, but I feel it would not be unreasonable to conclude that the difference between a 3.6 vs a 4.0 cannot be compensated for by an upward trend, even with veteran status (at least not with a median MCAT).
 
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I would not put a ton of stock in the "upward trend" dept. I happen to be a fairly unique case because I applied in-state with a 4.0 (because of AFS) and OOS with a ~ 3.6 (~3.8 BCPM). My "upward trend" was literally 6 years of nothing but straight A's (because I switched majors), including all prereq's (and my grades before that were all B's, but that's another story). Granted, there is some OOS bias against TX residents and some IS bias in favor of Texas residents, though the latter can be discounted significantly from the example as I will explain in a moment. I applied to 10 schools in Tx and received 7 invites.

I applied to ~12 OOS MD schools. Most of these schools had significantly lower stats than all the TX schools that invited me (which is why I say the IS preference can be discounted since I was applying against IS people with higher stats). Almost all of the OOS schools I applied to were private schools that had little to no preference for their IS residents, and most of them had MSAR data that reflected that they had at least some contingent of TX residents in their current classes. There were no "reach" schools on my list. I did not apply to any OOS school where either my GPA or MCAT was not at least in the 25th percentile for the school (and closer to the median for most).

LOR's, EC's, MCAT, personal statement, etc was the same obviously in both scenarios. I received exactly ZERO oos invites.

I know it's anecdotal, but I feel it would not be unreasonable to conclude that the difference between a 3.6 vs a 4.0 cannot be compensated for by an upward trend, even with veteran status (at least not with a median MCAT).


If you don't mind me asking, what was your MCAT score?
 
If you don't mind me asking, what was your MCAT score?

~509, basically the median score of matriculants (not applicants) for MD schools during my cycle, which means that likely it was higher than the median for interviewees (something that we don't have hard stats on; we only know applicants and matriculants, but it's not a leap of faith to conclude that interviewees MCAT's are probably lower on average than matriculants, since most schools only select a small subset of interviewees for actual seats).
 
For an alternative anecdotal take on GPA: I received 5 invites (4 OOS) out of 19 MD apps this cycle with a 3.6X and 511 MCAT (the average for matriculants two years ago, so probably lower than the average for this year). In retrospect, my school list kind of sucked and I only had maybe 10-12 "true" targets. I had an upward trend (sorta), but nowhere near as impressive as above poster. Looked something like this:

~3.4 out of 60+ credits from 8-10 years ago (almost exclusively humanities), including C's and W's. Immature, undisciplined, etc.
~4.0 out of 45 credits from A.A. in Arabic I got in the Army 6-7 years ago
~3.7 out of 90+ credits from completing my B.S. in the last 3ish years (almost exclusively science). Nothing lower than a B.

Personally, I attribute my IIs almost entirely to military experience (and my reflections on it). But then it may be that having posted a GPA <3.0--no matter how long ago--is the true killer. That is, maybe a dramatic upward trend that repairs a terrible GPA is not as helpful as a merely strong upward trend that repairs a mediocre GPA.

But I dunno. My take is that this process is completely idiosyncratic and the success/good fortune of one applicant can't predict much about that of another. Good luck OP!! I hope you continue to crush your prereq classes and that adcoms take mercy on you for once having been young and stupid (as they did me).
 
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