Grad school debt

[psych.meout]

That's a little hurtful, as I've been admitted to a few? And I'm glad they're able to handle it.

How is it "hurtful?" You were presenting a hypothetical to defend your argument and I presented a real-life example from someone to whom I am close to refute it. It has nothing to do with you having been admitted to programs. It's simply pointing out that having a physical disability is not mutually exclusive with completing a clinical psych PhD.

It's encouraging to hear that programs out there are willing to work with people with terminal illnesses. Perhaps I should have also mentioned that in the whole "debt" discussion as well.

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[smalltownpsych]

Keep in mind that the money for tuition is just one part of the cost. I would project that the eventual debt will be double. From the moment I enrolled in a doctoral program until I was able to make a decent salary was about eight years. As someone with a PsyD and too much debt, I would seriously advise to look at more inexpensive programs in flyover country. I didn’t really know what I was doing at the time or I would have done that myself. After all, that is where I ended up for internship anyways and where I live now. Partially because I can’t afford to live in a metro area because of all the debt!

 

[christypaffgen]

Keep in mind that the money for tuition is just one part of the cost. I would project that the eventual debt will be double. From the moment I enrolled in a doctoral program until I was able to make a decent salary was about eight years. As someone with a PsyD and too much debt, I would seriously advise to look at more inexpensive programs in flyover country. I didn’t really know what I was doing at the time or I would have done that myself. After all, that is where I ended up for internship anyways and where I live now. Partially because I can’t afford to live in a metro area because of all the debt!

That totally makes sense. I actually had interviews to a couple flyovers, but without access to the populations I'm most passionate about, and in the end, I wanted to be somewhere near family and where I felt comfortable. It also better propels my partner to continue in his progression in his company, which is great. We have a house in Seattle, but I was only waitlisted to SPU, and the advisor I wanted at UW just retired. I've been working on this plan for two years, and I can't work with the populations I want, doing the interventions I want, at the level I want, with a master's. (Nor do I really want to). I know it's very possible I'll end up in the midwest for internship, but after living the past decade with no family around, I'm really ready to be closer to people I love. It just seemed like Pepperdine was the least of many evils, because there's only a couple fully funded PsyDs, and they weren't for me.

 

[WisNeuro]

Massive debt. Damaged credit. Nothing to save. How student loans make home ownership a pipe dream

 

[psych.meout]

That totally makes sense. I actually had interviews to a couple flyovers, but without access to the populations I'm most passionate about, and in the end, I wanted to be somewhere near family and where I felt comfortable. It also better propels my partner to continue in his progression in his company, which is great. We have a house in Seattle, but I was only waitlisted to SPU, and the advisor I wanted at UW just retired. I've been working on this plan for two years, and I can't work with the populations I want, doing the interventions I want, at the level I want, with a master's. (Nor do I really want to). I know it's very possible I'll end up in the midwest for internship, but after living the past decade with no family around, I'm really ready to be closer to people I love. It just seemed like Pepperdine was the least of many evils, because there's only a couple fully funded PsyDs, and they weren't for me.

Look, I totally understand wanting to be near family and loved ones, as do i get not wanting to compromise at all on your particular interests (e.g., populations, problems, contexts, practica, etc.). The problems arise when you choose your program based on being unwilling to compromise on these things in favor of compromising on the quality (e.g., cohorts ~30, accredited match rate never higher than 86%, etc.) and cost.

 

[christypaffgen]

Look, I totally understand wanting to be near family and loved ones, as do i get not wanting to compromise at all on your particular interests (e.g., populations, problems, contexts, practica, etc.). The problems arise when you choose your program based on being unwilling to compromise on these things in favor of compromising on the quality (e.g., cohorts ~30, accredited match rate never higher than 86%, etc.) and cost.

For sure, that makes sense. I guess since this particular program kind of falls *right* on the cusp on what I was willing to "settle" for (cohort of 25, match rates around 84-87%, licensure rate 84%) I decided to try for as much financial aid as possible. The alternative for the area are unaccredited and/or standalone programs, which was the one firm "absolutely not" early on.

 

[StellaB]

The debt trap

Among the survey responses that Doran and the other researchers received are many quotes like this one:

"My debt is absolutely shattering the dreams I had for myself. … It fills me with anxiety, depression and resentment, which detract from my career satisfaction. I really regret my career choice, which is completely tragic and sad for me, as it was my dream to be a psychologist."


Results like this "are not a good thing for the profession," Doran says.


Ameen agrees, especially given the fact that salaries in psychology have remained fairly stagnant in recent years. "The unfinished work that this article points to is the conversation about assessing the value of the psychology doctorate," he says. "In light of the costs, how are we positioning future psychologists to be financially and professionally viable? I think the field really needs time and focus to wrestle with this question."

 

[MAClinician]

Also from that article:
One key is that prospective students should be fully informed of their financial prospects before they start a graduate program, says Nabil El-Ghoroury, PhD, associate executive director of APAGS and another co-author of the study. APAGS has a toolkit available

to help students make that assessment. But training programs need to do more, the study authors say.
"Typically, at no point during the admissions process is information provided about the full cost of attending (including associated non-tuition expenses, such as attending conferences or buying assessment materials), limits on and consequences of borrowing, expected repayment terms or average monthly payment based on the amount of loans taken. … This information should be routinely provided by psychology programs to prospective students," they write.

For current students, El-Ghoroury says, the APAGS toolkit also offers information on loan repayment options, including the so-called "pay-as-you-earn" programs that limit monthly payments to a percentage of your income, as well as the public service loan forgivenessprogram. (For more ways to pay back loans, see the article "Got Debt?")

Yup. Totally see the expensive schools lining up to post their students ' average debt loads.

 

[DCDMB]

I am dealing with what seems like an obvious choice, a fully funded MSW/PhD program at a strong R01 (en route to clinical LCSW licensing but with research/methodology in social work research- not psychology) or a limited-funded PsyD program. I want to be able to work in integrative health settings, be able to administer and interpret psychological tests, provide psychotherapy, etc....and while I feel silly that the question of funded vs unfunded program is there, I'm having to weigh if I can really get the same results out of both programs. I'll likely head towards the fully-funded option; it's really an illusion of choice when I think about my financial future (120k in debt at unfunded program versus, well much much less), even if the PsyD program is more attractive to me in regards to my goals.

Debt is important, and while everyone has individual circumstances and responses to debt, the long term implications need to be real in the present.

 

[procrastin8r]

The Professor Is In collected a survey of PhD debt a few years ago.
Ph.D. Debt Survey | The Professor Is In
It's GRIM. Grimmer, mostly because it extends across fields and not just to clinical/counseling psych (where graduates are at least likely to get jobs). We are all responsible for our choices, ultimately. However, there is a lot of para-predatory behavior from faculty and/or programs: bright undergrads are strongly encouraged to get a PhD and are continuously told there is a tenure-track job on the other side of it, if only they work hard enough... And maybe they are naive to believe that fairy tale, but it's difficult to be appropriately discerning when multiple authority figures are continuously reassuring you that it will work out fine.

Hence: From professor-in-waiting to florist: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs
"Why did they accept so many of us into this program when there are no jobs?"

 

[PsyDr]

Massive debt. Damaged credit. Nothing to save. How student loans make home ownership a pipe dream

Okay, but let’s not pretend that student loans are the biggest financial factor of a 59 year old who can’t buy a sub $70k house outright.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Okay, but let’s not pretend that student loans are the biggest financial factor of a 59 year old who can’t buy a sub $70k house outright.

But its probably correlated to the type of 59-year-old person who wants to live in any 70k house I've ever seen....

 

[PsyDr]

But its probably correlated to the type of 59-year-old person who wants to live in any 70k house I've ever seen....

Eh, it has nothing to do with his desires.

1)federal law prohibits mortgage lenders from using age as a reason not to issue a mortgage. Seems stupid, but I’ll bank on buying an $16MM place when I’m 78 if they’re gonna give it to me.

2) the etymology of the word “mortgage” is rooted in the idea that you’ll be paying until you’re dead. See also: the origins of red doors. Guys not going to pay it off until 74-89.

3) usually $40k is the zero profit region for a mortgage for lenders.

4) usually takes 3 years to get any equity in a house. So this dude will be gross positive at 62? Life expectancy is like 78? Health expenses in retirement average like $225k? Seems like retirement planning isn’t going great. I wouldn’t lend the money even at above legal rates.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Eh, it has nothing to do with his desires.

1)federal prohibits mortgage lenders from using age as a reason not to issue a mortgage. Seems stupid, but I’ll bank on buying an $16MM place when I’m 78 if they’re gonna give it to me.

2) the etymology of the word “mortgage” is rooted in the idea that you’ll be paying until you’re dead. See also: the origins of red doors. Guys not going to pay it off until 74-89.

3) usually $40k is the zero profit region for a mortgage for lenders.

4) usually takes 3 years to get any equity in a house. So this dude will be gross positive at 62? Life expectancy is like 78? Health expenses in retirement average like $225k? Seems like retirement planning isn’t going great. I wouldn’t lend the money even at above legal rates.

I was suggesting the trait similarity was more in the realm of the poor planning variety.

 

[WisNeuro]

Okay, but let’s not pretend that student loans are the biggest financial factor of a 59 year old who can’t buy a sub $70k house outright.

Oh, mos def. That guy is probably not the best example they could have chosen. But, the other data still stands. Many students with sizable loans are putting off many lifestyle choices almost solely due to loan debt.