Grade Inflation

[Spiker]

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Hey I just saw http://gradeinflation.com/ and thought it was pretty interested that duke/harvard/darthmouth/yale are listed as some of the most inflated schools. So from that I dont see how people can make the "I go to a hard school so my gpa=low and everyone else's no top 10 school are **** easy that is why they got high gpa" arguement.

I mean wow I cant believe some school AVERAGE GPA is 3.5+ wtf???

 

[armybound]

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Those schools have problems with the grades seeming inflated because their student body is so dam motivated/intelligent. If you put 300 pre-med kids that were valedictorians in high school into the same college classroom, you're gonna get a **** ton of A's.

 

[MrBurns10]

If Duke has grade inflation, I clearly took all the wrong classes.

 

[MossPoh]

No, it is grade inflation. It is relative to what students received in the previous years. Nearly every university has it though. If they aren't challenging you and are giving you roughly the same difficult stuff as any other school then I think it hurts them even more. What would the point be of going there if it were the same education you received everywhere else?

I believe there are only like 3 or 4 schools left that really have NO grade inflation from early on. These students work their butts off to get B's and A's are truly difficult.

 

[fishbait63]

Its kind of hard to truly quantify grade inflation especially if its just based on numbers especially when you consider that most of these students were the most intelligent high schoolers going in, if they were that intelligent/dilligent going in and are doing the same level of work then they might deserve all those a's. (keep in mind I have no experience at those schools myself, my school is known for its grade deflation 🙁 )

Moreover an interesting note is that Darthmouth according to my friend who graduated from there, published the average grade for each class along with your grade on the transcript

 

[chuckanderson]

Yeah sorry, but your 'the most intelligent people go here' arguments are false.

Check out average ACT/SAT scores by department, standardized tests depending on degree (ACS for example) and you'll see that some state/engineering schools consistently have higher scores than those with lower grades.

 

[i am the moon]

If Duke has grade inflation, I clearly took all the wrong classes.

This. (Though apparently I did choose the teachers most likely to use pre-med weed out methods. God, wish I knew that ratemyprofessor.com existed sooner!)

 

[behealthy]

Sure looks like my school (UCI) doesn't suffer from much inflation.

 

[redlight]

Hey I just saw http://gradeinflation.com/ and thought it was pretty interested that duke/harvard/darthmouth/yale are listed as some of the most inflated schools. So from that I dont see how people can make the "I go to a hard school so my gpa=low and everyone else's no top 10 school are **** easy that is why they got high gpa" arguement.

I mean wow I cant believe some school AVERAGE GPA is 3.5+ wtf???

i get mixed reports. there are some really good schools where people say grading is super harsh.. and then a week later i have a friend in the same school say it's almost impossible to get below a b+ in xyz class. im thinking the hard sciences are still tough to get good grades in (at least at the intro level in curved courses) but then the humanities and social sciences courses are notorious for grade inflation because the bulk of the student body is top 10% of high school, plus great standardized test scores so they know how to get good grades when they are not competing against a curve.

 

[redlight]

Yeah sorry, but your 'the most intelligent people go here' arguments are false.

Check out average ACT/SAT scores by department, standardized tests depending on degree (ACS for example) and you'll see that some state/engineering schools consistently have higher scores than those with lower grades.

ive seen you write this a few times and i still dont know what you are talking about... can you provide links or something?

 

[argonaute]

Those schools have problems with the grades seeming inflated because their student body is so dam motivated/intelligent. If you put 300 pre-med kids that were valedictorians in high school into the same college classroom, you're gonna get a **** ton of A's.

it sometimes seems that UC berkeley is like that. granted not all 300 ppl in the class are valedictorians, but a good portion of them are (and a good portion of harvard/stanford/MIT are definintely not valedictorians). i personally know several valedictorians from high school who have gone to berkeley to get C's...

the reason is that no matter how good or motivated or whatever the student body is, only 20-25% of people in the class get A's.

it's just really hard to define what grade students should get, just because there really isn't any definition. top students should get A's, but at a school like harvard, should everyone get A's because they're all top students?

 

[zerial]

At UC Berkeley, there are some students who are legitimately smart (friends of mine) but they can't get higher than B+'s because the professors don't really have any reason to give out a lot of A's, so they don't. If you're not in a top fraction of the class, then tough.

I would say that Berkeley really doesn't have much grade inflation, if at all.

 

[alwaysaangel]

At UC Berkeley, there are some students who are legitimately smart (friends of mine) but they can't get higher than B+'s because the professors don't really have any reason to give out a lot of A's, so they don't. If you're not in a top fraction of the class, then tough.

I would say that Berkeley really doesn't have much grade inflation, if at all.

Eh, I don't think they have what I would call grade inflation but I don't think Berkeley is as "hard" on premeds as people claim.

Granted it varies a lot by major but I was in one of the majors that carries a lot of premeds and the fact of the matter is, all classes are curved in the students FAVOR and most teachers used a straight curve not a bell curve so in the majority of classes more than 25% of students got As.

Was Berkeley easy? Not at all. But its not any harder than any other college.

 

[alibai3ah]

Yea I've heard that too, that private schools generally have those (my friend from stanford claimed the same thing).....

It sucks more if you are in the upper-middle of the pile (go to one of the UC's or something) where you are surrounded by people who are smart enough to be in ivy league schools but no grade inflation exists to help you.

 

[argonaute]

Eh, I don't think they have what I would call grade inflation but I don't think Berkeley is as "hard" on premeds as people claim.

Granted it varies a lot by major but I was in one of the majors that carries a lot of premeds and the fact of the matter is, all classes are curved in the students FAVOR and most teachers used a straight curve not a bell curve so in the majority of classes more than 25% of students got As.

Was Berkeley easy? Not at all. But its not any harder than any other college.

I wouldn't say berkeley is too much harder than other colleges, and I'm sure a lot of people overexxagerate its difficulty for whatever reason. i haven't found it to be impossible so far.

It's just the only thing is that it may be difficult for a lot of people to get consistently high grades, because only a limited percentage (normally 20-30% in premed classes) will get A's. i wouldn't say that's traditional, bell-cruve grading, but it's definitely not inflated grades.

The issue is for these people to try to remain competitive with the more severe grade inflation seen in some of the private schools. >700 people apply to med school each year, and it's definitely not possible for all of them to have really GPAs...and so in order to stay in the competitive GPA bracket they complain they have to work harder than their peers and such.

I don't know how much merit grade inflation complaints really have or whether tis' just an excuse. i've only been to berkeley.

 

[dmblue]

Going to a private prep school, it was well known among the students and advisors that certain upper tier schools were notoriously easy. Harvard in particular is known for being extremely easy considering the difficulty getting in. They told us that the basically give out A's.

Now i never went to Harvard, but at a school that regularly gets kids in to those schools, I took there word for it.

 

[SaintPreux]

Georgia Tech:

Average GPA for 2008: 3.07
Average GPA for the the year my dad graduated: 2.79

US News & World Report: #7 Public University...

Take the above numbers as you will.

 

[WellWornLad]

Harvard has always been notorious for grade inflation. In a lot of ways, the standard pressures that bring about grade inflation - narcissistic students with high expectations, outraged parents demanding returns on their investment, impetus to see students placed well after graduation, and not wanting to burn their alumni donation bridges - are especially acute at elite institutions.

Maybe there's an argument for the high intelligence level of the student body, but I would counter-argue that institutions who do not calibrate their standards to the abilities of their student body are not doing their job and probably don't deserve the great reputation that drew said students in the first place.

 

[flip26]

I wouldn't worry about grade inflation. Make As.

There are a handful of schools that are known for the opposite of inflation - I guess it is "deflation" - but med schools know these, and I am sure they make some sort of adjustment in their thinking.

I assume that if you attend one of these ball breaker schools (say MIT) that you are effectively competing against fellow MIT grads who are applying to med school, and also you are competing against, say, Cal Tech grads, as far as GPA goes...

 

[johncalvin]

Some schools (like MIT) give out only pass/fail grades for the 1st semester. They used to give out pass/fail for the entire year, actually, but they changed that recently.

Considering how many college students do worst in the first semester, this pass/fail policy is an automatic grade inflator.

 

[student1799]

i get mixed reports. there are some really good schools where people say grading is super harsh.. and then a week later i have a friend in the same school say it's almost impossible to get below a b+ in xyz class.

Both of these can actually be true at the same time. As I mentioned in another thread where this topic came up, I went to Columbia postbacc, and there were a couple of profs there who were very harsh graders (the into bio prof in particular), meaning not only that they gave very few A's, but also a lot of sub-B grades. In many other classes, though, the premed definition of "harsh" meant simply that it was pretty difficult to get an A (10-15% of the class). On the other hand, as you said, it was also hard to get below a B: many people who'd get C's and below in a classic bell curve were getting B- (at worst) instead. So while there was certainly grade inflation in these classes, I'd say the bulk of it was in the B range rather than the A range. Of course, since premeds are always shooting for A's, it didn't feel like such a cakewalk to us.

 

[redlight]

Some schools (like MIT) give out only pass/fail grades for the 1st semester. They used to give out pass/fail for the entire year, actually, but they changed that recently.

Considering how many college students do worst in the first semester, this pass/fail policy is an automatic grade inflator.

id say that's false. pass/fail (or satisfactory/unsatisfactory) first semester is not an automatic grade inflator. many people do their best freshman year first semester because technically it should be their easiest/lightest schedule. i know 5 or so people who had 4.0s but now have 3.9s or well below that now.

 

[slick27]

i personally know several valedictorians from high school who have gone to berkeley to get C's...

All the valedictorians I know from high school were burnouts in college. I slacked through high school and had enough energy to do well where it counts (college).

 

[LizzyM]

I get around this by reviewing a bunch of applicants from the same school at one sitting so I'm comparing like-with-like.

Also, with regard to someone's dad: unless he graduated in the last 10 years, that gpa is a product of another era. The grade inflation is more recent than 25 years ago.

Awhile back, Harvard made headlines with the fact that the average grade in most classes was an A-. Since then, it seems like they've tightened the grading a little and we aren't seeing quite so many 3.8 gpas.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

it sometimes seems that UC berkeley is like that. granted not all 300 ppl in the class are valedictorians, but a good portion of them are (and a good portion of harvard/stanford/MIT are definintely not valedictorians). i personally know several valedictorians from high school who have gone to berkeley to get C's...

the reason is that no matter how good or motivated or whatever the student body is, only 20-25% of people in the class get A's.

it's just really hard to define what grade students should get, just because there really isn't any definition. top students should get A's, but at a school like harvard, should everyone get A's because they're all top students?

That makes me kind of jealous 🙁
UCI (at least every class I've been in so far) only gives 14-17% 🙁(

 

[ppham27]

That's why the MCAT exists--to provide some form of standard measure. One of the schools that you mention, Duke, actually posts higher average MCAT scores for their accepted applicants versus the national average for accepted applicants despite these Duke students achieving a lower GPA in a grade-inflated system. To be honest, Duke probably does practice some grade inflation but not enough to warrant the outrage that you're expressing.

The numbers for accepted applicants (2007):
Average Duke GPA: 3.55 Cumulative, 3.38 BCPM
Average National GPA: 3.73 Cumulative, 3.68 BCPM
Average Duke MCAT: 33.7 Q
Average National MCAT: 30.7 P

http://premed.duke.edu/wp-content/uploads/2007-annual-report.pdf

Thus, the fact that these students achieved a relatively lower GPA in a supposedly easier grade-inflated system must indicate that these students are huge slackers, and the system is incredibly unfair. Not only do they have a lower GPA, but they also do it at a place where grade inflation runs rampant. However, these same students tend to do better on the MCAT than the average accepted applicant does. So, it turns out that obtaining a higher GPA at Duke might actually be harder, and the argument that Duke students are on average smarter and/or more motivated might hold weight (if one assumes that the MCAT is a fair test of the intelligence and/or motivation of a student).

 

[redlight]

That's why the MCAT exists--to provide some form of standard measure. One of the schools that you mention, Duke, actually posts higher average MCAT scores for their accepted applicants versus the national average for accepted applicants despite these Duke students achieving a lower GPA in a grade-inflated system. To be honest, Duke probably does practice some grade inflation but not enough to warrant the outrage that you're expressing.

The numbers for accepted applicants (2007):
Average Duke GPA: 3.55 Cumulative, 3.38 BCPM
Average National GPA: 3.73 Cumulative, 3.68 BCPM
Average Duke MCAT: 33.7 Q
Average National MCAT: 30.7 P

http://premed.duke.edu/wp-content/uploads/2007-annual-report.pdf

Thus, the fact that these students achieved a relatively lower GPA in a supposedly easier grade-inflated system must indicate that these students are huge slackers, and the system is incredibly unfair. Not only do they have a lower GPA, but they also do it at a place where grade inflation runs rampant. However, these same students tend to do better on the MCAT than the average accepted applicant does. So, it turns out that obtaining a higher GPA at Duke might actually be harder, and the argument that Duke students are on average smarter and/or more motivated might hold weight (if one assumes that the MCAT is a fair test of the intelligence and/or motivation of a student).

wow, the info from the link is very thorough (and pretty impressive). love the transparency. as a side note, it looks like the best way into duke med is through the undergrad.

edit: the average #s for my school are 8.33 cgpa and 8.66 sgpa but i didnt see the most recent mcat avg

 

[argonaute]

That makes me kind of jealous 🙁
UCI (at least every class I've been in so far) only gives 14-17% 🙁(

wow that does kind of suck. haha i didn't think UCB has more grade inflation than that.

granted, only about 15% of those 20-25% are true 4.0's, so most of those gunning for 4.0s won't be able to pull it off. (top 15% in EVERY premed class?).

Although, I will agree that even UCB has pretty heavy grade inflation. Average GPA's for a lot of upper division classes in non-science/engineering classes are around 3.3-3.6.

 

[MrBurns10]

as a side note, it looks like the best way into duke med is through the undergrad.

Without a doubt. 10-15 of every class (out of 100 students) are Dukies.

 

[chuckanderson]

yeah there's a few studies on it.

gradeinflation.com has the results of a few of them about halfway down when it talks about some adcoms justifying their grade inflations.

check your library, i searched it one day when i was bored and there were probably 5 different articles about it

 

[Spiker]

That's why the MCAT exists--to provide some form of standard measure. One of the schools that you mention, Duke, actually posts higher average MCAT scores for their accepted applicants versus the national average for accepted applicants despite these Duke students achieving a lower GPA in a grade-inflated system. To be honest, Duke probably does practice some grade inflation but not enough to warrant the outrage that you're expressing.

The numbers for accepted applicants (2007):
Average Duke GPA: 3.55 Cumulative, 3.38 BCPM
Average National GPA: 3.73 Cumulative, 3.68 BCPM
Average Duke MCAT: 33.7 Q
Average National MCAT: 30.7 P

http://premed.duke.edu/wp-content/uploads/2007-annual-report.pdf

Thus, the fact that these students achieved a relatively lower GPA in a supposedly easier grade-inflated system must indicate that these students are huge slackers, and the system is incredibly unfair. Not only do they have a lower GPA, but they also do it at a place where grade inflation runs rampant. However, these same students tend to do better on the MCAT than the average accepted applicant does. So, it turns out that obtaining a higher GPA at Duke might actually be harder, and the argument that Duke students are on average smarter and/or more motivated might hold weight (if one assumes that the MCAT is a fair test of the intelligence and/or motivation of a student).

Doesnt it just point out that med school dont give a **** where you are from? if you have lower gpa you better make it up with higher MCAT? It doesnt say if the school is better/worse?

If 5 guys from no name college have average gpa of 3.2 their mcat average better be like 37+? however that says NOTHING about the school's easy or hard? for all you know there may be a tone of other people that didnt get in

 

[fishbait63]

Berkeley might have higher upper division GPAs but thats is because there is a lot of collaboration in upper div from my experience. First year graduate students take the upper division classes as upper div students as requirements just their course number change. And grading occurs with the highest grade in the class as the new total (graduate student grades included). I dont know if that is grade inflation.

 

[behealthy]

So... when I go back for a second degree.. I should go to anywhere but a UC. darn uci... screws me again!

 

[ppham27]

Doesnt it just point out that med school dont give a **** where you are from? if you have lower gpa you better make it up with higher MCAT? It doesnt say if the school is better/worse?

If 5 guys from no name college have average gpa of 3.2 their mcat average better be like 37+? however that says NOTHING about the school's easy or hard? for all you know there may be a tone of other people that didnt get in

I think that it does say something about the difficultly of the school since the MCAT supposedly tests your knowledge of the basic sciences and verbal reasoning skills. Therefore, all things being the same (undergraduate, major, classes taken), GPA generally correlates with MCAT score to some degree. For instance, a 4.0 GPA and a 25 MCAT screams grade inflation. It's when that correlation breaks down that you begin to start suspecting grade inflation/deflation relative to other institutions. Applying this logic (let me know if it is unsound), Duke actually practices grade deflation relative to other institutions when compared to a standard measure such as the MCAT.

If you want to include the people that didn't get in, Duke gives those numbers, too. For senior applicants (2007):

All Senior Applicants (accepted and rejected):
3.63 cGPA, 3.52 sGPA, 34.3 MCAT (notice these numbers are higher than above because the above number included alumni applicants and reapplicants)

So, as you can see, the numbers still indicate that even Duke students with lower grades still score better on the MCAT that the national pool of applicants. And if the MCAT is any indication of the intelligence of the student, it shows that general level of competitveness at insititutions like Duke are higher; thus, just because the average GPAs are higher at these institutions doesn't necessarily indicate that it is easier for the same student to achieve a high GPA there since the level of competitiveness at Penn State and Harvard are quite different.

Also, I think that the numbers indicate the contrary. Medical schools do care where you come from by taking into account the supposed rigor of your school. They don't seem to have a problem taking Duke students with low GPAs relative to other schools because they know the rigor of Duke's curriculum and are confident that they can be successful in medical school.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Also, I think that the numbers indicate the contrary. Medical schools do care where you come from by taking into account the supposed rigor of your school. They don't seem to have a problem taking Duke students with low GPAs relative to other schools because they know the rigor of Duke's curriculum and are confident that they can be successful in medical school.

They generally, as far as I know, only do that to a certain level. Which is often a cGPA of 3.5, as those stats show. They told us the same thing when we went into engineering (that med schools take that into consideration) but only to the point where you still had above a 3.5 (i.e they will consider a 3.5 gpa the same as a 3.6 for non engineering, but below a 3.5 would still be a redflag). But I do agree that they would probably prefer a 3.4 from Duke over a 3.8 from a CalState or something.

*given that the MCAT for the Duke student is higher as expected of course. I don't think they'd pick the Duke student in a 3.5, 30 from Duke Vs. a 3.6 36 Calstate situation for example. (but that would be below your stats anyways)

 

[RapplixGmed]

I looked at the provided data from Duke and thought... WTF? UC Berkeley has a school of medicine? Apparently 3 applicants were able to figure out how to apply to this secretive and underground medical school and one actually got accepted. Apparently, no one matriculated because it doesn't exist.

 

[alwaysaangel]

I looked at the provided data from Duke and thought... WTF? UC Berkeley has a school of medicine? Apparently 3 applicants were able to figure out how to apply to this secretive and underground medical school and one actually got accepted. Apparently, no one matriculated because it doesn't exist.

Probably the UCSF-Berkeley Joint medical program.

 

[student1799]

I looked at the provided data from Duke and thought... WTF? UC Berkeley has a school of medicine? Apparently 3 applicants were able to figure out how to apply to this secretive and underground medical school and one actually got accepted. Apparently, no one matriculated because it doesn't exist.

"Secret and underground med school"? Sounds like Stewart University! 🙂

 

[redlight]

Doesnt it just point out that med school dont give a **** where you are from? if you have lower gpa you better make it up with higher MCAT? It doesnt say if the school is better/worse?

If 5 guys from no name college have average gpa of 3.2 their mcat average better be like 37+? however that says NOTHING about the school's easy or hard? for all you know there may be a tone of other people that didnt get in

i really dont think it works that way. 3.2/37 is in trouble no matter what school the person is coming from, though they may admittedly get more looks if everything else is very solid.

also it is pretty clear ugrad can be a factor if you look at matriculants to some of the top schools. schools like columbia, penn, michigan, etc, are stacked with ivy grads and the like.

also your argument doesnt quite explain how some schools can claim 90% admissions rate for students who score over, say, a 3.3 cgpa. im sure their mcat had to have been good, but a 3.3 cgpa is still pretty low. can many "no-name" schools claim this? im not too sure.

 

[not respect]

The thing about grade inflation at Duke, I tihnk, is that it mostly occurs in humanities classes and not so much in science classes. So the premed GPAs are still pretty low but for the overall student body, the GPA is quite high.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

I think that it does say something about the difficultly of the school since the MCAT supposedly tests your knowledge of the basic sciences and verbal reasoning skills. Therefore, all things being the same (undergraduate, major, classes taken), GPA generally correlates with MCAT score to some degree. For instance, a 4.0 GPA and a 25 MCAT screams grade inflation. It's when that correlation breaks down that you begin to start suspecting grade inflation/deflation relative to other institutions. Applying this logic (let me know if it is unsound), Duke actually practices grade deflation relative to other institutions when compared to a standard measure such as the MCAT.

If you want to include the people that didn't get in, Duke gives those numbers, too. For senior applicants (2007):

All Senior Applicants (accepted and rejected):
3.63 cGPA, 3.52 sGPA, 34.3 MCAT (notice these numbers are higher than above because the above number included alumni applicants and reapplicants)

So, as you can see, the numbers still indicate that even Duke students with lower grades still score better on the MCAT that the national pool of applicants. And if the MCAT is any indication of the intelligence of the student, it shows that general level of competitveness at insititutions like Duke are higher; thus, just because the average GPAs are higher at these institutions doesn't necessarily indicate that it is easier for the same student to achieve a high GPA there since the level of competitiveness at Penn State and Harvard are quite different.

Also, I think that the numbers indicate the contrary. Medical schools do care where you come from by taking into account the supposed rigor of your school. They don't seem to have a problem taking Duke students with low GPAs relative to other schools because they know the rigor of Duke's curriculum and are confident that they can be successful in medical school.

Buit isnt the whole point of shelling out 40K./yr to receive a top-notch education? Compete with the nations brightest?

 

[MrBurns10]

The thing about grade inflation at Duke, I tihnk, is that it mostly occurs in humanities classes and not so much in science classes. So the premed GPAs are still pretty low but for the overall student body, the GPA is quite high.

I would agree with this. I was a humanities major and, at least in many of the classes I took, it was hard to get a solid A but also hard to get below a B.

 

[Ged42]

id say that's false. pass/fail (or satisfactory/unsatisfactory) first semester is not an automatic grade inflator. many people do their best freshman year first semester because technically it should be their easiest/lightest schedule. i know 5 or so people who had 4.0s but now have 3.9s or well below that now.

I'd say you are completely wrong on this one. The transition from high school to freshmen year at MIT results in a significant portion of the first semester freshmen failing their classes (which is why the first year fails count as no record). In fact, around ~40% of freshmen are given warnings around the 6 week mark that they are in danger of failing. (The pass/no record exists to relieve anxiety so students don't kill themselves). The average GPA for freshmen is 3.8 which is a C+. http://web.mit.edu/faculty/reports/pnrap/report3.html

These aren't dumb kids either as many of them are recent valedictorians aced the SATs etc. People on SDN talk about "calculus based physics" as something special or taking "ochem physics and bio" in the same semester as a tough courseload. That's considered one of the easiest semesters and cannot be avoided.

Additionally, MIT doesn't say that "all our students are smart so they deserve A's" like I read above that some ivies do. Almost all classes are curved (except some sporadic classes that have set ranges) and the cutoff is usually around 15% in both humanities and science/engineering courses for As. I'm not sure if that's high or low.

 

[DrJosephKim]

As an former pre-med MIT alum, let me speak about this issue from a personal perspective. Many schools (such as MIT) follow a fairly strict grade distribution schedule in most of the science classes (i.e., only x% are allowed an A, then y% get a B, and so forth). Therefore, unless you're in the top x% of your biology class at MIT, you won't be getting an A in that class. Sounds harsh, doesn't it! After all, the entire class is full of students who were in the top x% of their high school, and everyone is striving for an A.

Now, other schools (not to be mentioned) don't necessarily follow such a strict schedule. Therefore, they are fine giving a very large % of the class an A. In some instances, the majority of the class may get an A. You won't see the type of bell-curve grade distrubution that you see at a school like MIT.

The bottom line is that most medical schools won't show any sympathy towards you if you graduate from MIT with a mediocre science GPA. The reality is that you may have gotten a 4.0 GPA at a state university, but let's say that your GPA from MIT is a 3.3. You will be judged based on your GPA of 3.3 and you'll have difficulty getting into some medical schools. This is where the MCAT comes to bring some level of standardization. I knew several pre-meds at MIT who had a GPA in the low 3's. They had great MCAT scores and they did fine with medical school applications.

Consider this: If you get a 4.0 at a state university and a 29 on your MCAT, you'll probably be in a better position to get accepted into medical school compared to the same individual who gets a 3.2 from MIT with a 29 on the MCAT.

 

[LizzyM]

Consider this: If you get a 4.0 at a state university and a 29 on your MCAT, you'll probably be in a better position to get accepted into medical school compared to the same individual who gets a 3.2 from MIT with a 29 on the MCAT.

Another thing about MIT, IIRC, there are no +/- grades so it is either A or B or C and that makes it all the more harsh.

Now, if you have two applicants with MCAT 29, we know that they were the same in their performance on one day. The 4.0 from a state school is a better position than the 3.2 from MCAT because in some ways schools are judged by their mean gpa and a 4.0 is a superior to a 3.2.

 

[redlight]

I'd say you are completely wrong on this one. The transition from high school to freshmen year at MIT results in a significant portion of the first semester freshmen failing their classes (which is why the first year fails count as no record). In fact, around ~40% of freshmen are given warnings around the 6 week mark that they are in danger of failing. (The pass/no record exists to relieve anxiety so students don't kill themselves). The average GPA for freshmen is 3.8 which is a C+. http://web.mit.edu/faculty/reports/pnrap/report3.html

These aren't dumb kids either as many of them are recent valedictorians aced the SATs etc. People on SDN talk about "calculus based physics" as something special or taking "ochem physics and bio" in the same semester as a tough courseload. That's considered one of the easiest semesters and cannot be avoided.

Additionally, MIT doesn't say that "all our students are smart so they deserve A's" like I read above that some ivies do. Almost all classes are curved (except some sporadic classes that have set ranges) and the cutoff is usually around 15% in both humanities and science/engineering courses for As. I'm not sure if that's high or low.

[i wasn't talking about MIT specifically; it's clearly a special case. however, my school has a similar grading policy for first semester and I can assure you that it is the easiest semester for many people]
the fact that many freshman fail their first semester does not necessarily imply that the grading system is an automatic grade inflator.

perhaps mit freshman take on WAY too much their first semester? i noticed that the average unit load for freshmen is higher than it is for the other students. perhaps they try to "game" the system by loading up on tough courses to get them out of the way and avoid grades in those courses on their record? the document you linked made that point..

at any rate, that's clearly not the point of the pass/no record bit. as you mentioned, its goal is to make the transition easier. this does not make it an automatic grade inflator if it is used wisely (take a lighter load, if possible. thats what you are supposed to do as a student transitioning into a new, more rigorous environment. ive heard many people say you are supposed to treat the adjustment period as a 3 credit class when making your schedule).

you may find grades would be HIGHER if the s/u thing was taken away. that's probably a main reason why mit switched from 2 -> 1 semester of that grading system. the temptation to take a bunch of (tougher) classes you otherwise wouldnt take is likely a factor why the average grades is lower for freshman.

i'm sticking by my guns on this one.

 

[redlight]

As an former pre-med MIT alum, let me speak about this issue from a personal perspective. Many schools (such as MIT) follow a fairly strict grade distribution schedule in most of the science classes (i.e., only x% are allowed an A, then y% get a B, and so forth). Therefore, unless you're in the top x% of your biology class at MIT, you won't be getting an A in that class. Sounds harsh, doesn't it! After all, the entire class is full of students who were in the top x% of their high school, and everyone is striving for an A.

Now, other schools (not to be mentioned) don't necessarily follow such a strict schedule. Therefore, they are fine giving a very large % of the class an A. In some instances, the majority of the class may get an A. You won't see the type of bell-curve grade distrubution that you see at a school like MIT.

The bottom line is that most medical schools won't show any sympathy towards you if you graduate from MIT with a mediocre science GPA. The reality is that you may have gotten a 4.0 GPA at a state university, but let's say that your GPA from MIT is a 3.3. You will be judged based on your GPA of 3.3 and you'll have difficulty getting into some medical schools. This is where the MCAT comes to bring some level of standardization. I knew several pre-meds at MIT who had a GPA in the low 3's. They had great MCAT scores and they did fine with medical school applications.

Consider this: If you get a 4.0 at a state university and a 29 on your MCAT, you'll probably be in a better position to get accepted into medical school compared to the same individual who gets a 3.2 from MIT with a 29 on the MCAT.

despite how tough it is to come out of MIT with a decent average, the average gpa for accepted students (that applied the summer after junior year) is still a 3.7/4.0 (35 mcat) 😱. that's crazy!

as a side note, the lowest gpa accepted was a 3.2 and lowest mcat was a 30. 95% acceptance for gpa over 3.3.
http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html#med

 

[clifftacopter]

I guess I'll give my two cents...

I started out at UC Berkeley (a school with supposedly little to no grade inflation) and then transferred to Yale my junior year (a school with supposedly extensive grade inflation). I can tell you that without any doubt getting an A at Yale was MUCH harder than getting an A at UC Berkeley. I had to work substantially harder to make comparable grades than I ever had to at Berkeley. Even though Berkeley had a smaller percentage of As in each class (usually), the caliber of students at Yale is quite a bit higher. When I first transferred, I was under the impression that it would be smooth sailing in terms of grades compared to Berkeley.

 

[Ged42]

[i wasn't talking about MIT specifically; it's clearly a special case. however, my school has a similar grading policy for first semester and I can assure you that it is the easiest semester for many people]
the fact that many freshman fail their first semester does not necessarily imply that the grading system is an automatic grade inflator.

perhaps mit freshman take on WAY too much their first semester? i noticed that the average unit load for freshmen is higher than it is for the other students. perhaps they try to "game" the system by loading up on tough courses to get them out of the way and avoid grades in those courses on their record? the document you linked made that point..

at any rate, that's clearly not the point of the pass/no record bit. as you mentioned, its goal is to make the transition easier. this does not make it an automatic grade inflator if it is used wisely (take a lighter load, if possible. thats what you are supposed to do as a student transitioning into a new, more rigorous environment. ive heard many people say you are supposed to treat the adjustment period as a 3 credit class when making your schedule).

you may find grades would be HIGHER if the s/u thing was taken away. that's probably a main reason why mit switched from 2 -> 1 semester of that grading system. the temptation to take a bunch of (tougher) classes you otherwise wouldnt take is likely a factor why the average grades is lower for freshman.

i'm sticking by my guns on this one.

Drop the guns! (j/k). So in order to prevent freshmen from taking a bunch of tough classes there's a credit cap placed on freshmen (4 classes/term which is standard). If you want to take more classes you get sophomore standing and your grades are shown (so no pass/no record). Additionally, you can't take any of the advanced courses because you need the prerequisites which are all freshmen classes.

Yeah, I can't believe the average accepted Junior stats are 3.7/35. I remember reading a thread (my soph year) about why MIT was a bad school for people who are premed... I kinda agree now.