grade replacement

[torontopharm]

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I'm sorry this happened and I really feel for you. I hope you don't mind me asking but what are your GPAs now? Will they not count ANY of your retakes? Can you take them again these next months within a summer semester or summer session? I'm rooting for you.

I know you mean well, but the thought of having to repeat repeated work because of a sudden policy change is cringe worthyIf there's no solution to this, and y'all are down to egg the AACOMAS office, count me in.

 

[Stephanopolous]

I'm sorry this happened and I really feel for you. I hope you don't mind me asking but what are your GPAs now? Will they not count ANY of your retakes? Can you take them again these next months within a summer semester or summer session? I'm rooting for you.

Now I'm at c2.94 s3.11, that's with a pending gpa recalculation because they incorrectly calculated it the first time I was verified. I'm crossing my fingers that they don't find some other way to bring my GPA down. So far only that class didn't count as a re-take.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

I know you mean well, but the thought of having to repeat repeated work because of a sudden policy change is cringe worthyIf there's no solution to this, and y'all are down to egg the AACOMAS office, count me in.

I know the changes are weird but we have to look at the brightside. Be thankful that AACOMAS still HAS a retake policy. They COULD merely average the grades out. I'm all for retakes and their new policy, but beggars can't be choosers.

 

[Gandyy]

I know the changes are weird but we have to look at the brightside. Be thankful that AACOMAS still HAS a retake policy. They COULD merely average the grades out. I'm all for retakes and their new policy, but beggars can't be choosers.

True AMCAS is brutal about grade retakes. They average always, you dont get to replace your grades if you are applying MD.

 

[mathnerd88]

^ I won't be surprised if in the future AACOMAS starts averaging retakes. DO schools are getting more competitive and GPA/MCAT is increasing every year.

In fact, I believe more in AMCAS's policy where they should average retakes. If retakes are allowed, then everyone can be going to DO schools with 4.0 GPA's if they can keep retaking...It makes GPA less relevant and MCAT more relevant.

To me, retaking it isn't fair. It can significantly skew GPA's for those who have only taken it once to those who have taken the class more than once. I mean, shouldn't adcoms take into account someone who received an F in a class and got an A later vs. someone who got a B the first time around? I'm not trying to insult anyone here, but that's my honest opinion.

As a doctor, when you screw up diagnosing a patient, you often don't get a second chance to make things right. Sometimes damage is irreparable.

 

[Stephanopolous]

Well it seems like phasing it out is maybe what they are trying to do then. In my case there is no way possible for me to re-take biology because my university has changed the prefix so it will never match.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

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[Stephanopolous]

Well I was going to respond to math nerd's post but I would essentially be echoing what alonzo said. That blanket statement doesn't apply to all and it isn't fair to stereotype all who re-take a course as "screwing up".

Also, comparing doing poorly in a class, then retaking it and doing well, to being able to treat a patient is not a logical comparison at all.

 

[mathnerd88]

OH PLEASE. And that's why you can apply to MD. Retakes are a godsend. College isn't for everybody and people mature differently and take school seriously over time. You're telling me you haven't screwed up in a class ever? People aren't perfect. I don't mean to attack you but when people come on here and complain about what is fair and what isn't ... it's annoying. Worry about yourself and your GPAs and stuff. Life happens and sometime these events are unavoidable.

I know MANY people who would make GREAT physicians and ARE great physicians, and they barely graduated their 4-year universities.

There's more to people and doctors than MCAT and GPAs.

ADCOMS take everything into account. Hence the "holistic" approach. Even AACOMAS mentions this.

That's why I said they should be averaged...I never said you only get one shot. Yes, I get the holistic approach. That doesn't mean hiding your faults, and hiding your weaknesses by retaking classes. You put your best strengths forward and they're more forgiving.

Holistic means you look at the person as a whole. You don't cover up faults and you look for everything in the applicant.

To me, hiding a failed class is NOT a holistic approach by replacing the grade.

I don't completely agree with AMCAS either and MD process. It shouldn't be oh you failed a class? Rejection. There should be a middle ground here.

 

[swollcat]

^ I won't be surprised if in the future AACOMAS starts averaging retakes. DO schools are getting more competitive and GPA/MCAT is increasing every year.

In fact, I believe more in AMCAS's policy where they should average retakes. If retakes are allowed, then everyone can be going to DO schools with 4.0 GPA's if they can keep retaking...It makes GPA less relevant and MCAT more relevant.

To me, retaking it isn't fair. It can significantly skew GPA's for those who have only taken it once to those who have taken the class more than once. I mean, shouldn't adcoms take into account someone who received an F in a class and got an A later vs. someone who got a B the first time around? I'm not trying to insult anyone here, but that's my honest opinion.

As a doctor, when you screw up diagnosing a patient, you often don't get a second chance to make things right. Sometimes damage is irreparable.

Horrible assessment and an even more ridiculous analogy.

You act as if those seeking to retake courses just enroll, register and are gifted A's out of thin air. If you're doing this years after graduation like a lot of non-trads, not only are you paying more $ for the same classes (non-degree seeking students pay the max amount per unit at all universities in my state), but you don't even qualify for FAFSA loans or financial aid. Moreover, do you how non-existent recall is for those who took ochem at the age of 19 and then again at 25?

Quitting your job or whatever life long endeavor you started to go back to school and flip the script to that of an A STUDENT takes a tremendous amount of will power that you've failed to account for. And BTW, not everyone who retakes a class gets an A the second time around. Those who go through all that and manage to persevere deserve every bit of the reinvention they've done.

If a person wants an average of their grades, they'll go MD as they always have. If they want to be rewarded for reinvention they'll apply DO...as they always have.

 

[mathnerd88]

Horrible assessment and an even more ridiculous analogy.

You act as if those seeking to retake courses just enroll, register and are gifted A's out of thin air. If you're doing this years after graduation like a lot of non-trads, not only are you paying more $ for the same classes (non-degree seeking students pay the max amount per unit at all universities in my state), but you don't even qualify for FAFSA loans or financial aid. Moreover, do you how non-existent recall is for those who took ochem at the age of 19 and then again at 25?

Quitting your job or whatever life long endeavor you started to go back to school and flip the script to that of an A STUDENT takes a tremendous amount of will power that you've failed to account for. And BTW, not everyone who retakes a class gets an A the second time around. Those who go through all that and manage to persevere deserve every bit of the reinvention they've done.

So what's wrong with averaging the scores? That seems to be the MOST fair approach to this. I'm not telling DO schools to reject those with F's like MD schools do.

I'm saying they should still look at the applicant as a whole, but weaknesses should NOT be withheld.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

.

 

[mathnerd88]

The grades are NOT HIDDEN. They are SHOWN ON THE APPLICATION ALONG WITH THE RETAKE GRADE. It is just replaced for GPA calculations. Nothing is covered.

And plus, say you get a 4.0 in your retakes and pump up your GAP to a 4.0...

does this mean you will get a good score on the MCAT?

No. Not at all. That's why the MCAT is the great equalizer. Along with your ECs... along with your personal statement... along with your DO LOR to see if you actually understand osteopathic medicine.

Then what is the point of retaking a class to significantly bump up your GPA? It just creates MORE confusion for everyone and lots of skewed GPAs.

You're basically saying that someone with a 4.0 GPA and a 21 MCAT is worse than a 3.5 GPA with a 35 MCAT.

 

[Abraxas65]

So what's wrong with averaging the scores? That seems to be the MOST fair approach to this. I'm not telling DO schools to reject those with F's like MD schools do.

I'm saying they should still look at the applicant as a whole, but weaknesses should NOT be withheld.

First off they aren't withheld, your repeated courses are available front and center to all DO schools. So stop acting like they disappear after you do a retake. Secondly you are entitled to your opinion but you need to realize that this opinion does not match up with AACOMAS or any of the AdCom members here on SDN. There is no evidence to support the idea that AACOMAS is going to be changing their forgiveness policy anytime soon. And finally you really need to moderate your posts here, posting your opinion is fine but making statements about what AACOMAS will or willnot being doing is going to get you ridiculed.

 

[Abraxas65]

Then what is the point of retaking a class to significantly bump up your GPA? It just creates MORE confusion for everyone and lots of skewed GPAs.

You're basically saying that someone with a 4.0 GPA and a 21 MCAT is worse than a 3.5 GPA with a 35 MCAT.

This is a determination to be made by AdComs our opinion and your is irrelevant. So why do you care?

 

[mathnerd88]

^ That's my opinion. I'm not trying to start a flame war here. I never said what AACOMAS was going to do. I was giving hypothetical situations of what I feel like they should do.

People can feel free to agree or disagree with my opinion. I still believe that F's should not break your application, unlike AMCAS.

I just feel like people who have good GPA's without any retakes would probably be ranked lower than those who did retakes and got A's with higher GPA's. Some of us don't have money to keep going back to school to retake.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

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[DetectiveAlonzo]

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[Gandyy]

I will take no part in this flame war, but I will say that I believe AACOMAS is trying to phase out these grade retakes if their new policies stand. DO schools are indeed getting more competitive.

MCAT averages for mid and upper tier DO schools are skyrocketing so maybe they are trying to phase this out, but this is not how you do it. You let prospective applicants know about giant changes like this SEVERAL

months before, not after they have submitted their primary lol.

Again I hope this gets sorted out for everyone.


Edit: I will say that while DO schools seem to reward invention quite a bit, you probably arent going to get into Touro California with a 25 and a 3.4 gpa no matter how your EC's look. Unless you are URM of course... thats totally different and not in the scope of this post.

 

[mathnerd88]

You're forgetting about ECs... shadowing... and the extra stuff that makes an applicant's story appealing.
This process isn't all about stats like you may think.

When almost every osteopathic school reports their average incoming glass GPA and MCAT scores directly in their website, it does seem like they're stat oriented. A lot of them already screen out those with subpar GPA and MCAT prior to secondaries. My state school already reports their average sGPA as (3.5) and cGPA (3.6)

In fact, some of them even say you can't apply EDP unless you have a high enough GPA or a certain MCAT score.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

../

 

[Gordon Gekko]

 

[mathnerd88]

The schools with high averages have been around longer... and are in states/regions that have many applicants... Especially states like CA, AZ, etc.

Do you know what an AVERAGE is? This means that there CAN be successful applicants ABOVE and BELOW those numbers.

Lol.. you should pick a better username next time..

You should probably understand statistics...an average of 3.6 means there are plenty of people above that, and plenty of people below that. Your chances when you are below average are not as good for those who are NOT URM. It really depends on the distribution curve.

When people have skewed GPA's that are higher than that, well it puts those who don't have the money to afford extra classes and get higher GPA's at a disadvantage right?

No need for insults...I've never directed any personal insults against you.

 

[Abraxas65]

I will take no part in this flame war, but I will say that I believe AACOMAS is trying to phase out these grade retakes if their new policies stand. DO schools are indeed getting more competitive.

MCAT averages for mid and upper tier DO schools are skyrocketing so maybe they are trying to phase this out, but this is not how you do it. You let prospective applicants know about giant changes like this SEVERAL

months before, not after they have submitted their primary lol.

Again I hope this gets sorted out for everyone.

The small conversations I have had with AdComs and from AdComs here on SDN this doesn't seem to be the case. Everyone I have talked to (less than 10) says there hasnt been any change nor do they expect a change. But you never know.

 

[Gandyy]

^

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Is there an online GPA calculator to see what AACOMAS will put as my cumulative and science GPA? Does anyone have a link?

 

[torontopharm]

I know the changes are weird but we have to look at the brightside. Be thankful that AACOMAS still HAS a retake policy. They COULD merely average the grades out. I'm all for retakes and their new policy, but beggars can't be choosers.

Absolutely. I think everyone appreciates that they still have the retake policy, and they're free to change their policy whenever they want.
I just wish they'd inform the applicants beforehand prior to implementing a change of such great magnitude. I really sympathize people with 1 or 2 year worth of re-takes and was planning to apply this cycle. Hopefully it's just some form of miscommunication and works out at the end.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

../

 

[mathnerd88]

You win. You're right man. I'm sorry.

There's really no right or wrong in what I'm saying. It's just an opinion. You're definitely entitled to yours, just like I'm entitled to mine. Neither you nor I are going to change AACOMAS's policy, but it is nice to have a discussion about it.

I know this whole new AACOMAS application is getting on everyone's nerves, including mine.

Sorry if I ever offended anyone.

 

[Abraxas65]

@mathnerd88

This is a friendly warning but you are really toeing the line with some of your initial posts (which you have since editted, which was a very good thing). Just realize that the Mods on SDN are very active and certain posts that make insinuations about why average acceptance gpas are where they are or about who makes up which side of the bell curve will get you banned very quickly. Also realize that Mods have the ability to see your post pre and post edit. I know what its like to get typing faster then your brain is catching up and how unintended inferences can be made even though you dont mean to, so be careful.

 

[mathnerd88]

I never said who ends up on which side of the bell curve. I have no idea about that. I was basing my ideas off of applicant data that was published on AACOM.

My edits were just add-ons to my original posts. I never actually deleted what I have written prior.

I realize my posts can sound harsh, but that was not my intention at all.

Which rule have I violated under SDN rules?

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I don't believe I have violated any of them. I wasn't attacking anyone nor insulting anyone in particular; just stating my own opinion on GPA and what I believe should be fair.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Absolutely. I think everyone appreciates that they still have the retake policy, and they're free to change their policy whenever they want.
I just wish they'd inform the applicants beforehand prior to implementing a change of such great magnitude. I really sympathize people with 1 or 2 year worth of re-takes and was planning to apply this cycle. Hopefully it's just some form of miscommunication and works out at the end.

You and me both. Retakes since 2009. Mucho $$$ & time spent. My house is being prepped for listing and I am moving down South for a SMP in 3 weeks. They used my AACOMAS GPA from last cycle >3.1 to accept me. Even if I ace the Fall semester with the OMS-1s, that bumps my steaming pile to 2.74cGPA/2.49sGPA this cycle if this new policy stands. That should be a fun interview in January.

 

[torontopharm]

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[GypsyHummus]

You and me both. Retakes since 2009. Mucho $$$ & time spent. My house is being prepped for listing and I am moving down South for a SMP in 3 weeks. They used my AACOMAS GPA from last cycle >3.1 to accept me. Even if I ace the Fall semester with the OMS-1s, that bumps my steaming pile to 2.74cGPA/2.49sGPA this cycle if this new policy stands. That should be a fun interview in January.

U are super lucky then to have landed that SMP gig when you did then if these changes are really happening. From what I have heard, all past mistakes are forgiven so long as you get a 3.0 in the post bacc and a 23 MCAT with DCOM.

To the topic, THIS IS INSANITY!!! Grade replacement was the reason I had the opportunity to become a doctor in the first place. I have not submitted my app yet, but have CRITICAL retakes that bump my GPA up like by .3. Im submitting in July as well like @torontopharm , gonna just wait out june and see what happens

I hope and pray this is just miscommunication with the powers that be and we can go back to grade replacements at different places. They at the very least give us this cycle to keep the old policies. If not, then perhaps one of the post bacc back door ways into a DO school would be the way to go for lower GPA people, Like at LECOM.

 

[zero0]

Sadly, DO schools just don't need to be cutting people slack anymore and they know it. The 90's are over, they have qualified applicants lining up now.

It does seem that the AACOM ultimately did pass on more stringent guidelines for grade replacement when they converted to the new application service. I expect that to continue to be the new norm and even become more draconian over time.

On a related note, just about every DO school now offers an SMP. It could just be that they'd rather have you pay them money rather than pay for retakes at some university. The new norm seems to be that you'll have to shell out an extra year's worth of tuition to the school if you want a chance to attend. It's not a dumb move on their part, soulless maybe, but smart 👍

 

[Gandyy]

Sadly, DO schools just don't need to be cutting people slack anymore and they know it. The 90's are over, they have qualified applicants lining up now.

It does seem that the AACOM ultimately did pass on more stringent guidelines for grade replacement when they converted to the new application service. I expect that to continue to be the new norm and even become more draconian over time.

On a related note, just about every DO school now offers an SMP. It could just be that they'd rather have you pay them money rather than pay for retakes at some university. The new norm seems to be that you'll have to shell out an extra year's worth of tuition to the school if you want a chance to attend. It's not a dumb move on their part, soulless maybe, but smart 👍

Yea especially touri ny and ca. 30 mcat and 3.6 is extremely close to md national average. Give it 15 years or so and there will be no "significantly easier" way to get into medical schools besides maybe doing smps which are extremely watered down versions of the 1st year of med school

 

[mathnerd88]

Yea especially touri ny and ca. 30 mcat and 3.6 is extremely close to md national average. Give it 15 years or so and there will be no "significantly easier" way to get into medical schools besides maybe doing smps which are extremely watered down versions of the 1st year of med school

I don't even think it is significantly easier to get into DO schools now compared to MD.

I'm not sure if DO schools are posting inflated average GPA and MCAT scores. Average of 3.6 cGPA and 3.5 sGPA and 28 MCAT seems pretty high for my state school. (RowanSOM)

 

[Gandyy]

I don't even think it is significantly easier to get into DO schools now compared to MD.

I'm not sure if DO schools are posting inflated average GPA and MCAT scores. Average of 3.6 cGPA and 3.5 sGPA and 28 MCAT seems pretty high for my state school. (RowanSOM)

I agree, which is why I put "significantly easier" in quotes. I'm saying in 15 years there will be no dispute over the matter.

 

[zero0]

Yea especially touri ny and ca. 30 mcat and 3.6 is extremely close to md national average. Give it 15 years or so and there will be no "significantly easier" way to get into medical schools besides maybe doing smps which are extremely watered down versions of the 1st year of med school

Yup, even the Caribbean window is expected to close come 2020.

 

[Gandyy]

Yup, even the Caribbean window is expected to close come 2020.

Indeed. Competition is brutal now. even 15 years ago being a cardiologist out of carribean wasn't unheard of. Now people have to sit around for 2 to 3 years after graduating from a carribean school just to get a low end FM residency.

 

[Cardboard101]

I'm from this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/2015-application-grade-replacement-changes.1141572/
Looked at the AACOMAS instructions for 2015 : http://web.jhu.edu/prepro/Forms/AACOMAS Instructions.2015.pdf
Repeat course instructions are towards the end of page 19.
Quote:
"Courses repeated for academic improvement or
grade change must be listed each time taken. Repeated
coursework MUST be equivalent to the original course
in course content and credit hours to be used as a
replacement. Also, course levels must be equivalent.
A graduate level course cannot be use to replace an
undergraduate course. Courses repeated for additional
credit, but not for a better grade, such as physical
education or chorus, are not considered a repeat."

Is this the instruction manual for last year or this year?

 

[Major]

Can we please keep this thread on topic?...Which is dealing with a unwritten rule change in retake policy and those of us trying to survive this.

For those wanting to share their philosophy of the need for retakes to be gotten rid of, you can go make your own thread and debate it all there. This isn't the thread for it.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

Just got done reading about this retake policy by AACOMAS. To clarify everything, the only ones who aren't screwed, are those who still have institutions out there using the same course number for i.e. (NSCI 41 (4 years ago) = NSCI 41 (today)). If that's the case this whole "retake" system thingy is messing up many prospective applicants. I am fortunate that the institution where I have failed miserably on my courses still uses the same course number, but even don't feel safe about it. My question would be retaking a course at another institution that uses the exact same course number and credit amount and if that would be credited as a "replacement". For example, some local state college and community college uses the same course code numbers interchangeably.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Just got done reading about this retake policy by AACOMAS. To clarify everything, the only ones who aren't screwed, are those who still have institutions out there using the same course number for i.e. (NSCI 41 (4 years ago) = NSCI 41 (today)). If that's the case this whole "retake" system thingy is messing up many prospective applicants. I am fortunate that the institution where I have failed miserably on my courses still uses the same course number, but even don't feel safe about it. My question would be retaking a course at another institution that uses the exact same course number and credit amount and if that would be credited as a "replacement". Again, fortunately for me, my local state college and community college uses the same course code numbers interchangeably.

That is fortunate.

I think that being the same prefix is unreasonable, because in that scenario you can't take coursework anywhere else for retake. It is VERY unlikely that schools would have the same numbering and title system, which makes me think this is a misunderstanding.

 

[Gandyy]

Just got done reading about this retake policy by AACOMAS. To clarify everything, the only ones who aren't screwed, are those who still have institutions out there using the same course number for i.e. (NSCI 41 (4 years ago) = NSCI 41 (today)). If that's the case this whole "retake" system thingy is messing up many prospective applicants. I am fortunate that the institution where I have failed miserably on my courses still uses the same course number, but even don't feel safe about it. My question would be retaking a course at another institution that uses the exact same course number and credit amount and if that would be credited as a "replacement". For example, some local state college and community college uses the same course code numbers interchangeably.

Wow so it's confirmed then? That's insane. If its already written prior then they aren't gonna change the policy probably

 

[GypsyHummus]

Wow so it's confirmed then? That's insane. If its already written prior then they aren't gonna change the policy probably

The actual writing of it is extremely vague, and it says nothing about requiring prefix or even the same credit equivalency. Something is fishy

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Just to double check, in AACOMAS it said to enter in 0 for the number of credits, and also whatever grade you got, on retaken courses for the first time that you took the course. Then for the second time you took that course, you should put the correct number of credits along with final grade. Is this correct?

 

[Major]

Just to double check, in AACOMAS it said to enter in 0 for the number of credits, and also whatever grade you got, on retaken courses for the first time that you took the course. Then for the second time you took that course, you should put the correct number of credits along with final grade. Is this correct?

Correct.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

That is fortunate.

I think that being the same prefix is unreasonable, because in that scenario you can't take coursework anywhere else for retake. It is VERY unlikely that schools would have the same numbering and title system, which makes me think this is a misunderstanding.

I only throw that scenario out there because the courses I've failed in my state College were CS41 & CS26, exact same prefixes and courses at my local community college. It seems to me that AACOMAS are starting to tightening up their screws in a way that I believe emulating their "MD" application process policy will not be of a distance future.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I only throw that scenario out there because the courses I've failed in my state College were CS41 & CS26, exact same prefixes and courses at my local community college. It seems to me that AACOMAS are starting to tightening up their screws in a way that I believe emulating their "MD" application process policy will not be of a distance future.

Did you get verified?