graduate applications up- is this a real problem?

[teenmachinery1]

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I keep hearing graduate apps are up in many different fields.

Do you guys think this is true for med school apps?

Do you guys think this is significant? (significant as in it'll hurt our chances for acceptance.)

thanks all.

 

[armybound]

school applications always go up when the economy is down.

wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

[teenmachinery1]

Most graduate programs require the GRE. A person can study for the GRE in a short time period and apply to graduate school. Easy to do if you have already taken the right courses. Most people don't take premed courses in college.

whoa, this never occurred to me.

👍 thanks.

 

[amakhosidlo]

I keep hearing graduate apps are up in many different fields.

Do you guys think this is true for med school apps?

Do you guys think this is significant? (significant as in it'll hurt our chances for acceptance.)

thanks all.

The real log-jam is going to come in around 3-4 years when the current incoming freshman, who've been scared into pursuing medicine as a "safe" career path by the recession, start applying.

I also think the number of applicants to pharm, dent, PA programs will rise as well (possibly more so, due to the negative press medicine's been getting via the health care debate), for the same reasons..

 

[teenmachinery1]

The real log-jam is going to come in around 3-4 years when the current incoming freshman, who've been scared into pursuing medicine as a "safe" career path by the recession, start applying.

I also think the number of applicants to pharm, dent, PA programs will rise as well (possibly more so, due to the negative press medicine's been getting via the health care debate), for the same reasons..

hmmm, then i better get in within 3-4 years! If i could only get some invites now...

 

[Pedie Packs]

If there are about 3,000 more people that apply to medical school over the next three years, your percentage chance of getting into medical school is just a few percentages lower. Don't freak out.

Plus it's not like acceptance numbers are going to be stagnant. Many medical schools are increasing enrollment (as much as fiscal responsibility allows), and there have been a handful of new schools opening up too.

 

[flip26]

Ehh, the applicants who form this margin, or bubble, in this cycle are probably not as competitive as they should be - if someone is throwing their app on to the pile because of the bad economy in the last year, I really question if they would have all the necessary ducks in a row to be competitive.

As someone else pointed out, the real bubble could come in a couple of years, but the counter trend is, of course, the fear of what the future holds for physicians under reform.

 

[schrizto]

Also, I would mention that the GRE isn't as important in graduate school admissions as the MCAT is for medical school admissions. People don't sign up for GRE courses and prep like crazy for the GRE like people do for the MCAT.

 

[Jolie South]

Also, I would mention that the GRE isn't as important in graduate school admissions as the MCAT is for medical school admissions. People don't sign up for GRE courses and prep like crazy for the GRE like people do for the MCAT.

It's such a ridiculous test that doesn't predict anything. Really? Math and Verbal? Quantitative?

I think it's mostly used for exclusion. You'd have to be an idiot (or a non-native English speaker) to not score somewhat decently on that test.

 

[Hoody]

school applications always go up when the economy is down.

Correct.

Just a decade ago there was a huge outcry for pharmacists. They sold the great $100k a year salary as a reason to become a pharmacist. Thus, since there was a need for pharmacists, a bunch of new schools opend up, people gradauted, and now people struggle to find a decent job (outside of Walgreens or Wal-Mart) to find a job that pays $100k.

The same thing will happen to PA school. There is a need for PAs, people will go to PA school, take the jobs, and the starting average salary will decrease due to lowering reimbursements.

Incorrect.

Plus it's not like acceptance numbers are going to be stagnant. Many medical schools are increasing enrollment (as much as fiscal responsibility allows), and there have been a handful of new schools opening up too.

There should be more sports of aspiring doctors. plan and simple. we are in a huge physician shortage. health care reform will not change that (well, it may make it worse)

Also, I would mention that the GRE isn't as important in graduate school admissions as the MCAT is for medical school admissions. People don't sign up for GRE courses and prep like crazy for the GRE like people do for the MCAT.

Also incorrect.

 

[Hoody]

It's such a ridiculous test that doesn't predict anything. Really? Math and Verbal? Quantitative?

I think it's mostly used for exclusion. You'd have to be an idiot (or a non-native English speaker) to not score somewhat decently on that test.

have you taken the test??? or are we making ASSumptions? 😕

 

[Jolie South]

have you taken the test??? or are we making ASSumptions? 😕

I've taken the test and gone to grad school. Thanks.

 

[schrizto]

Hoody, can you explain why you think those statements are incorrect?

 

[Jolie South]

Let me explain my thoughts on the GRE another way.

A lot of schools set a cut off of GRE over 1000 for acceptance. That is not a hard score to attain. Besides that, no one is going to care what your score was.

The math on the GRE is high school level. The verbal is learning how to answer questions. The quantitative is questions like "Jane is taller than Bob. Bob is shorter than Jim. Who is tallest?" You don't prep for months with thousand dollar programs for that.

 

[Hoody]

I've taken the test and gone to grad school. Thanks.

uh huh, sure..... 😉



Last I checked, the MCAT wasn't predictive of much either (though I could be wrong) 😕

 

[Jolie South]

Last I checked, the MCAT wasn't predictive of much either (though I could be wrong) 😕

I actually do have a Master's, so I don't know what the winking is about.

The MCAT tests your ability to incorporate knowledge and critically think. These are important skills for med school. The GRE doesn't test any prior knowledge except high school math and you can succeed easily by reading a book about test taking strategies.

 

[Hoody]

Let me explain my thoughts on the GRE another way.

A lot of schools set a cut off of GRE over 1000 for acceptance. That is not a hard score to attain. Besides that, no one is going to care what your score was.

The math on the GRE is high school level. The verbal is learning how to answer questions. The quantitative is questions like "Jane is taller than Bob. Bob is shorter than Jim. Who is tallest?" You don't prep for months with thousand dollar programs for that.

verbal is mostly comparing synonyms. There are a few questions on verbal passages. And don't forget there is a writing sample as well.
the average is around 1000 (500 for each the verbal and quant sections) and a 4 for the writing...so that means that 50% of the people taking it score less than 1000. I guess those people are just plain idiots? 😕

 

[Hoody]

I actually do have a Master's, so I don't know what the winking is about.

The MCAT tests your ability to incorporate knowledge and critically think. These are important skills for med school. The GRE doesn't test any prior knowledge except high school math and you can succeed easily by reading a book about test taking strategies.

I would agree that most people do well in the math, especially if you have had college algebra 1&2 or Trig. Verbal is what kicks most people's ass.

I suck at math and my math score was >>> my verbal

 

[Jolie South]

verbal is mostly comparing synonyms. There are a few questions on verbal passages. And don't forget there is a writing sample as well.
the average is around 1000 (500 for each the verbal and quant sections) and a 4 for the writing...so that means that 50% of the people taking it score less than 1000. I guess those people are just plain idiots? 😕

First, I took the test before there was a writing component.

I think you could agree though, that it's much harder to succeed on the MCAT than the GRE. Anyone that can do well on the MCAT could ace the GRE.

 

[Hoody]

Hoody, can you explain why you think those statements are incorrect?

very simple...


People have to prep for the GRE. The average sore is around 1000. 900-1000 is usually what grad schools require for admittance. If you have a less than reasonable score, they want an explanation, much like Med schools would want an explanation for a less than reasonable MCAT score.

Furthermore, there are many GRE prep books and classes that are offered by Princeton Reivew and Kaplan....like the MCAT. Also, some universities offer GRE prep classes for s/u credit, just like the MCAT!

To say that people don't have to study is silly. Of course people have to study. The GRE is a part of the admissions package. Some schools don't require it at all (like U of R that doesn't require the MCAT). Other schools not only require it, but have higher cutoffs, like 1200. If you have a good app other than a low GRE, you might still get in. Likewise, if you have a lower GPA, but an exceptional GRE, you still may get in.

 

[schrizto]

the average is around 1000 (500 for each the verbal and quant sections) and a 4 for the writing...so that means that 50% of the people taking it score less than 1000. I guess those people are just plain idiots? 😕

It goes for almost any test that the average score is a score people wouldn't want to get. The average MCAT is around a 25, which isn't a good score. The average SAT is a 1000 (out of 1600), and it's not considered a good score either.

 

[Hoody]

First, I took the test before there was a writing component.

I think you could agree though, that it's much harder to succeed on the MCAT than the GRE. Anyone that can do well on the MCAT could ace the GRE.

agreed. 👍

Although most people who do well on the PS/BS still struggle in verbal. Seems thats the majority of people struggle with verbal (expect you English majors!). Im confident most MCAT takers could ace the math section....but Im still not convinced they could do any better on the verbal section....at least not without studying.

 

[Jolie South]

agreed. 👍

Although most people who do well on the PS/BS still struggle in verbal. Seems thats the majority of people struggle with verbal (expect you English majors!). Im confident most MCAT takers could ace the math section....but Im still not convinced they could do any better on the verbal section....at least not without studying.

I never said you didn't have to prepare for the GRE only that you don't prepare for months and months and that you don't need to spend a ton of money to do well. You could get a GRE prep book, self study for a few weeks, and still do just fine.

 

[Hoody]

I'd still rather take the GRE (again) any day....

MCAT, uh, not so much...

 

[schrizto]

very simple...


People have to prep for the GRE. The average sore is around 1000. 900-1000 is usually what grad schools require for admittance. If you have a less than reasonable score, they want an explanation, much like Med schools would want an explanation for a less than reasonable MCAT score.

Furthermore, there are many GRE prep books and classes that are offered by Princeton Reivew and Kaplan....like the MCAT. Also, some universities offer GRE prep classes for s/u credit, just like the MCAT!

To say that people don't have to study is silly. Of course people have to study. The GRE is a part of the admissions package. Some schools don't require it at all (like U of R that doesn't require the MCAT). Other schools not only require it, but have higher cutoffs, like 1200. If you have a good app other than a low GRE, you might still get in. Likewise, if you have a lower GPA, but an exceptional GRE, you still may get in.

I never said people don't have to prep for the GRE. It is possible to do better on any test with studying. I said that the MCAT is a much bigger factor in admissions when compared to the GRE. The MCAT can affect an application much more than the GRE can affect an application.

And I have never heard of a U.S. medical school not requiring the MCAT. University of Rochester waives the MCAT for some postbacc programs, but it definitely requires the MCAT the regular route.

 

[Hoody]

I never said you didn't have to prepare for the GRE only that you don't prepare for months and months and that you don't need to spend a ton of money to do well. You could get a GRE prep book, self study for a few weeks, and still do just fine.

not convinced that a few weeks will cut it for the verbal. thats some nasty stuff and a lot of words to memorize....I mean, a few weeks may get you a 500, if you're a good guesser or have an impressive vocab already established.


and, this goes without saying....people who have worked since undergrad and are thinking about going back to grad school will probably also struggle with the math sections, especially if they do not use math at their everyday job. Formulas are easy to forget after a few years.


MCAT >> GRE. without a doubt. But that doesn't make the GRE a snap. Besides, most people who are going for GRE, aren't on the same caliber on many levels as those going for MCATs. To compare the two is kinda like comparing apples to oranges. You can't compare the LSAT to the GMAT. alike in many ways, but still, very different.

 

[Jolie South]

I never said people don't have to prep for the GRE. It is possible to do better on any test with studying. I said that the MCAT is a much bigger factor in admissions when compared to the GRE. The MCAT can affect an application much more than the GRE can affect an application.

And I have never heard of a U.S. school not requiring the MCAT. University of Rochester waives the MCAT for some postbacc programs, but it definitely requires the MCAT the regular route.

True.

No grad school adcom is going to be like, "well, you see this candidate scored in the 98% percentile on the GRE, we can't lose him/her."

It just doesn't play the same role that the MCAT does.

 

[Hoody]

I never said people don't have to prep for the GRE. It is possible to do better on any test with studying. I said that the MCAT is a much bigger factor in admissions when compared to the GRE. The MCAT can affect an application much more than the GRE can affect an application.

How would you know this when you haven't even been through the process? Didn't you just start college this semester??

Read your original post. You said that people don't sign up for GRE classes and prep like crazy....which is incorrect. Maybe people you know don't, but that doesn't mean all people don't.

 

[brooklynblunder]

as a kaplan tutor, you are right. GRE courses arent as in demand as MCAT or GMAT (some gmat is paid for my the student's company).

Graduate schools have said that they try to look less and less at the GRE score. However, its kinda unavoidable. ESP in the competitive fields like engineering/humanities, etc

 

[Hoody]

True.

No grad school adcom is going to be like, "well, you see this candidate scored in the 98% percentile on the GRE, we can't lose him/her."

It just doesn't play the same role that the MCAT does.

I don't think that adcoms say that about the MCAT either. You wont be getting into any US Allo school with a 2.0 GPA and 45 MCAT unless you have a great story to tell and some unusual circumstances that allowed for a 2.0 GPA.

Same with the GRE. If you score in the 98% percentile, but have a 2.0 GPA, you probably wont get in. If you have a 4.0 GPA and a 27 MCAT, you probably will get into some US Allo school. If you have a 4.0 GPA and a << 900 GRE, you probably will get into grad school. So the story goes both ways.

The GRE can be a deal breaker for some people so to write it off as something that is insignificant in terms of the whole application and in the eyes of adcoms is simply untrue.

 

[Jolie South]

I don't think that adcoms say that about the MCAT either. You wont be getting into any US Allo school with a 2.0 GPA and 45 MCAT unless you have a great story to tell and some unusual circumstances that allowed for a 2.0 GPA.

Same with the GRE. If you score in the 98% percentile, but have a 2.0 GPA, you probably wont get in. If you have a 4.0 GPA and a 27 MCAT, you probably will get into some US Allo school. If you have a 4.0 GPA and a >> 900 GRE, you probably will get into grad school. So the story goes both ways.

The GRE can be a deal breaker for some people so to write it off as something that is insignificant in terms of the whole application and in the eyes of adcoms is simply untrue.

I agree. Honestly, I think it's more looked at as an exclusionary factor for people that don't make the cut.

 

[Hoody]

as a kaplan tutor, you are right. GRE courses arent as in demand as MCAT or GMAT (some gmat is paid for my the student's company).

Graduate schools have said that they try to look less and less at the GRE score. However, its kinda unavoidable. ESP in the competitive fields like engineering/humanities, etc

I've also heard this....and I've heard that some schools are going to do away with the GRE period. But like you say, they have to maintain some way to rank applicants as GPA sometimes isnt enough. Obviously, as the degree factories churn out millions of undergrads each year, applications for grad schools are going to continue to rise. The bachelors has become the new high school diploma....in most fields, it alone is not worth much anymore. 👎

 

[schrizto]

Read your original post. You said that people don't sign up for GRE classes and prep like crazy....which is incorrect. Maybe people you know don't, but that doesn't mean all people don't.

This is what I said:

People don't sign up for GRE courses and prep like crazy for the GRE like people do for the MCAT.

I realize my wording may be confusing, but I was comparing the GRE to the MCAT. I didn't mean that people don't study or sign up for GRE classes.

 

[Hoody]

Now, is it possible for me to substitue my GRE score for the MCAT?

please?!?!?!?!?

 

[schrizto]

Now, is it possible for me to substitue my GRE score for the MCAT?

please?!?!?!?!?

I don't get the point you are trying to make. Maybe you are referencing to something personal?

 

[Hoody]

I don't get the point you are trying to make. Maybe you are referencing to something personal?

um, I don't want to take the MCAT....so I figured I would just substitute my GRE if thats cool.


But I'm just kidding....I know you can't. 🙁

 

[womp]

have you taken the test??? or are we making ASSumptions? 😕

Looks like you made an ass of yourself instead.

The GRE is easy (think of it as a slightly advanced SAT), especially since it's now adaptive. You know exactly how well you are doing based on the progressive difficulty of your questions.

Think about this: roughly 500,000 people take the GRE each year, while only 70,000 people take the MCAT. Furthermore, most if not all the MCAT-takers have done the premed requisites and done well enough to have not dropped premed. Which 99% percentile do you think is harder to get?

Even a perfect score of 800 on the GRE Quantitative section is only in the 92nd percentile. All my friends who did econ, chem and math scored 800 on the quant. It's a friggin' joke.

 

[Hoody]

Looks like you made an ass of yourself instead.

um, yeah, cause I threw some logic into the convo. I know logic is allowed around here. My bad.

GRE is easy (think of it as a slightly advanced SAT), especially since it's now adaptive. You know exactly how well you are doing based on the progressive difficulty of your questions.

Easy to who? You? If it were easy, then everyone would get a perfect score. ZING!

about this: roughly 500,000 people take the GRE each year, while only 70,000 people take the MCAT. Furthermore, most if not all the MCAT-takers have done the premed requisites and done well enough to have not dropped premed. Which 99% percentile do you think is harder to get?

Um, you must have missed my post where I said MCAT >> GRE. You's a good reader. 👍

B]Even a perfect score of 800 on the GRE Quantitative section is only in the 92nd percentile.[/B] All my friends who did econ, chem and math scored 800 on the quant. It's a friggin' joke.

well geez, it wouldn't be because they have extensive MATH included in their majors? HUH, who woulda thunk that these people would do wells on the maths sections of the GREs. DUH! If your friends are anything like yourself, they must have scored poorly on the verbal because your ability to read and comprehend is next to nothing. You're the friggin' joke.


Again, I will reiterate for those of you who choose to post without reading (i.e. WOMP). I do not believe the GRE is harder than the MCAT. I don't think its even close. However, I do not think the GRE is easy or that an acceptable passing score (1000+) is easy for all people taking the GRE to achieve.....especially without prepping.

 

[womp]

If a test's max score (800) is only in the 92nd percentile (and with over 7 times the annual number of test takers than the MCAT), then yes, that test is a friggin' joke.

well geez, it wouldn't be because they have extensive MATH included in their majors? HUH, who woulda thunk that these people would do wells on the maths sections of the GREs. DUH! If your friends are anything like yourself, they must have scored poorly on the verbal because your ability to read and comprehend is next to nothing. You're the friggin' joke.

You're hilarious. I suppose all the premeds who majored in Bio also just casually score the maximum score (15) in the MCAT Bio section? The GRE quant is simply a rehash of SAT math after 4 years of college. The GRE is made ridiculously easy by the fact that grad schools generally focus only on one of the 3 scores, and not all 3 scores. The math department only cares about the quant score, so those applicants have no intention of studying for the verbal and thus score a 500 on verbal, making all the English majors look very good, while the applicants for English Lit grad schools simultaneously bomb the quant and boost the math people. You don't have this problem with the MCAT: everyone who is taking the MCAT is looking to go into medicine and all three scores are equally important for medical schools, so everyone studies their asses off for all 3 sections. When the score doesn't matter, people don't study for it to the same extent (see Writing Sample on the MCAT), and the percentiles become mostly useless.

 

[Stixman28]

looks like we got dragged off topic here...but Ill just freak you all out a bit and mention that my dean of admissions said that apps were WAY up this year. I thought it would take a bit longer to see the jump...but I guess not. Good lucks folks.

 

[teenmachinery1]

looks like we got dragged off topic here...but Ill just freak you all out a bit and mention that my dean of admissions said that apps were WAY up this year. I thought it would take a bit longer to see the jump...but I guess not. Good lucks folks.

I say this with all due respect (and in jest),

could someone call this previous post a lie to make me feel better.

 

[teenmachinery1]

http://geoscience.unlv.edu/COSDocuments/Medical School dip.pdf

says applications went down for first time in 6 years for 2008.

I feel better already.

 

[womp]

I say this with all due respect (and in jest),

could someone call this previous post a lie to make me feel better.

Every year, people say applications are the highest ever. But last year (when the recession had already started), applications to medical schools were actually down significantly. But who knows about this year?

Personally, I'd think the recession would have wiped out a lot of parental investments, making the long and expensive career in medicine less enticing for a lot of parents to cheerlead about. More people might opt for funded grad school programs instead of taking $200k loans for med school in the middle of financial chaos. And there's also health care reform on the horizon.

Edit: Ahh, you beat me to it. I think schools report more applications now in the beginning partly also because people are applying earlier.

 

[Hoody]

The GRE is made ridiculously easy by the fact that grad schools generally focus only on one of the 3 scores, and not all 3

This is true. But to what extent, Im not sure. All of the grad schools I looked at wanted both qaunt and verbal with a min in each. that is to say, they didn't want a 1200 with a 800 in math and a 300 in verbal. Rather, you had to at least have a 500 in verbal. Most competitive GRE scores were much higher than 1000. I remember much emphasis on the writing score.

Every year, people say applications are the highest ever. But last year (when the recession had already started), applications to medical schools were actually down significantly. But who knows about this year?

Personally, I'd think the recession would have wiped out a lot of parental investments, making the long and expensive career in medicine less enticing for a lot of parents to cheerlead about. More people might opt for funded grad school programs instead of taking $200k loans for med school in the middle of financial chaos. And there's also health care reform on the horizon.

Edit: Ahh, you beat me to it. I think schools report more applications now in the beginning partly also because people are applying earlier.

The same happened to law schools. They too were down in overall apps in times when you think they would have picked up. They are up now.

And all grad schools are getting pretty $$$ these days. I considered law at Austin, Texas...but that was going to be around 200k. I also considered MBA at the same school, still in the hundreds of thousands. Ultimately I couldn't say for sure that I truly wanted to be either of those professions more than a doctor. So, I went back to undergrad.

 

[womp]

Look at it this way, even if applications are up 3% this year (which would be a lot), it's like what, 1300 more applicants across the entire country. There are 130 MD medical schools in the US, so that's 10 more applications per school on average if each sent 1 application, and 200 more applications per school if each sent 20 apps. Woop dee doo. The schools that will see the biggest jumps are probably traditional "safety schools" like NYMC, Rosalind Franklin, Drexel and some of the others.