Graduating psych residents…Job offers

[forchinet121]

Not Lifestance. I would say you have some control and can fire pts when appropriate. Full support staff dealing with all stuff. You take your vitals but there is an assistant to deal with utox and other stuff (PAs, screening calls etc.).
99214 is 80s. New evals is 150s.
I think the NP piece is something that needs more details but I think it is in the realm of mid-high 20s per NP.

Horrible

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[Stagg737]

Not Lifestance. I would say you have some control and can fire pts when appropriate. Full support staff dealing with all stuff. You take your vitals but there is an assistant to deal with utox and other stuff (PAs, screening calls etc.).
99214 is 80s. New evals is 150s.
I think the NP piece is something that needs more details but I think it is in the realm of mid-high 20s per NP.

So you're getting paid an extra ~2k per month per NP to supervise their entire panel? Hard pass from me right there.

 

[sloh]

Im starting to get more boots on the ground interviews with people in town. I've done a lot of build up networking and casual conversations with people over PGY2-3. Now I'll be talking with actual employers and getting more firm proposals starting this month (several scheduled).

Wish me luck.

Mid-long term I'm planning to do some of these gigs while building a practice on the side. I will be firm about noncompetes. I like to work and will plan to do several gigs. I don't want to give up my ability to moonlight where I want. There is something deeply satisfying to me to go in for a shift, and walk out knowing I got a check for it. An adrenaline bolus that I just don't get from my salary checks.

1099 baby. My first job was a w2 and soul crushing. I need that carrot!

 

[mistafab]

Academic gig offering asst prof title (core faculty). Start at 240k base. Dept/faculty historically get 30k bonus per year. Clinical work is 100% w/ residents (attest only) on consults. weekdays only. call is q 2 months. Moonlighting permitted. PTO 4 weeks not including holidays (which are also given), Sick leave 3 weeks. There is additional target/compensation structure but mostly handwaving and minimal details in the contract. They have option for 20k additional as sign-on/relocation.

Seems pretty benign for academia? Planning to ask for salary increase on negotiation. I dont need relocation or signon, but would rather have both and a pay increase if possible. This is a coastal city but not extreme COL/desireable (i.e. not LA, NY)

 

[docksan]

Academic gig offering asst prof title (core faculty). Start at 240k base. Dept/faculty historically get 30k bonus per year. Clinical work is 100% w/ residents (attest only) on consults. weekdays only. call is q 2 months. Moonlighting permitted. PTO 4 weeks not including holidays (which are also given), Sick leave 3 weeks. There is additional target/compensation structure but mostly handwaving and minimal details in the contract. They have option for 20k additional as sign-on/relocation.

Seems pretty benign for academia? Planning to ask for salary increase on negotiation. I dont need relocation or signon, but would rather have both and a pay increase if possible. This is a coastal city but not extreme COL/desireable (i.e. not LA, NY)

Different area, same general stuff, Midwest region.

 

[FlowRate]

Academic gig offering asst prof title (core faculty). Start at 240k base. Dept/faculty historically get 30k bonus per year. Clinical work is 100% w/ residents (attest only) on consults. weekdays only. call is q 2 months. Moonlighting permitted. PTO 4 weeks not including holidays (which are also given), Sick leave 3 weeks. There is additional target/compensation structure but mostly handwaving and minimal details in the contract. They have option for 20k additional as sign-on/relocation.

Seems pretty benign for academia? Planning to ask for salary increase on negotiation. I dont need relocation or signon, but would rather have both and a pay increase if possible. This is a coastal city but not extreme COL/desireable (i.e. not LA, NY)

This is a CL job? Main thing I'd want to know is local culture around timing of consults/shifts. (If something comes in at 4:55 are you now staying until 7 to staff the PGY2's consult/note?)

People around here often say that academic jobs are usually pretty rigid about pay/benefits. Doesn't hurt to ask, though, I know people who took attending jobs where I did residency negotiated pay and, when that wasn't available or they could only do so much, negotiated other things like having their own non-shared office.

 

[Stagg737]

Academic gig offering asst prof title (core faculty). Start at 240k base. Dept/faculty historically get 30k bonus per year. Clinical work is 100% w/ residents (attest only) on consults. weekdays only. call is q 2 months. Moonlighting permitted. PTO 4 weeks not including holidays (which are also given), Sick leave 3 weeks. There is additional target/compensation structure but mostly handwaving and minimal details in the contract. They have option for 20k additional as sign-on/relocation.

Seems pretty benign for academia? Planning to ask for salary increase on negotiation. I dont need relocation or signon, but would rather have both and a pay increase if possible. This is a coastal city but not extreme COL/desireable (i.e. not LA, NY)

What's the typical patient load? Consults can vary significantly and quality of residents can make a massive difference. Seeing 4-5 new consults/day with solid residents is very different than 10+ per day with residents who don't know how to treat basic agitation.

 

[mistafab]

What's the typical patient load? Consults can vary significantly and quality of residents can make a massive difference. Seeing 4-5 new consults/day with solid residents is very different than 10+ per day with residents who don't know how to treat basic agitation.

Smallish hospital, around 4-5 per day. However, I really can't gauge the resident acumen until I get there myself. I can't imagine it's terrible, but not sure it's great.

This is a CL job? Main thing I'd want to know is local culture around timing of consults/shifts. (If something comes in at 4:55 are you now staying until 7 to staff the PGY2's consult/note?)

People around here often say that academic jobs are usually pretty rigid about pay/benefits. Doesn't hurt to ask, though, I know people who took attending jobs where I did residency negotiated pay and, when that wasn't available or they could only do so much, negotiated other things like having their own non-shared office.

From what I understand, rounding w/ the residents is only once daily in this local culture. New consults are then staffed the next day, or they can call the on call same day for on-demand advice.

 

[wibbleylever]

Academic faculty job in high COL pretty saturated market. “Prestigious” institution which explains the pretty low pay - $200k base with $45K signing bonus. No RVU target. Combo inpatient with two afternoons of ECT per week. For the inpatient side of the job, hard patient cap of 5 (except when cross covering). Four required weekends rounding per year covering this and another unit (40 pts total). Unit split between 4 docs and you are expected to cross cover when others are on vacation. Dedicated SW who does all family meetings, aftercare, daily therapy with patient. I’m not entirely sure what the ECT afternoons look like but looks like people pick up shifts and cover all the patients scheduled during that shift (1-5pm likely). A lot of people do PP in the afternoons and malpractice is covered. 20 vacation days plus holidays, 12 sick days. Full benefits. Occasionally there will be residents rotating through but mostly covering patients yourself as they usually go to some of the more senior attendings.

So basically, low pay but a pretty chill workload with opportunity and time to supplement with PP. Thoughts on this offer? Salary is apparently not negotiable.

 

[uhmocksuhsillen]

200K in a high cost of living city? You're going to be middle class at best.

 

[Splenda88]

200K in a high cost of living city? You're going to be middle class at best.

Not everyone wants to make 400-500k/yr

I make twice of that salary and I feel like I am middle class even if I live in a LCOL area. Mortgage is ~ $1600/month and I have no car payment.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Academic faculty job in high COL pretty saturated market. “Prestigious” institution which explains the pretty low pay - $200k base with $45K signing bonus. No RVU target. Combo inpatient with two afternoons of ECT per week. For the inpatient side of the job, hard patient cap of 5 (except when cross covering). Four required weekends rounding per year covering this and another unit (40 pts total). Unit split between 4 docs and you are expected to cross cover when others are on vacation. Dedicated SW who does all family meetings, aftercare, daily therapy with patient. I’m not entirely sure what the ECT afternoons look like but looks like people pick up shifts and cover all the patients scheduled during that shift (1-5pm likely). A lot of people do PP in the afternoons and malpractice is covered. 20 vacation days plus holidays, 12 sick days. Full benefits. Occasionally there will be residents rotating through but mostly covering patients yourself as they usually go to some of the more senior attendings.

So basically, low pay but a pretty chill workload with opportunity and time to supplement with PP. Thoughts on this offer? Salary is apparently not negotiable.

Well so if it's a "hard cap" of 5 each for an inpatient unit, even if you have to cross cover for a total of 10, that's pretty easy. I'd make sure there's no non-compete or "big academic place allowed to take a cut of your outside work" and then recognize that this is a job where you can easy round in the AM and do clinic or PP in the afternoon for extra dough on the days you don't have ECT (I see you mentioned that somewhere too).

12 hours of PP per week from 1-5 is another 100K+/year easy.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Not everyone wants to make 400-500k/yr

I make twice of that salary and I feel like I am middle class even if I live in a LCOL area. Mortgage is ~ $1600/month and I have no care payment.

Doesn't really matter what you "feel" like if you make 400K a year (or even if you make 200K/year), you aren't "middle class" even in New York City, much less the rest of America.

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[Splenda88]

Doesn't really matter what you "feel" like if you make 400K a year (or even if you make 200K/year), you aren't "middle class" even in New York City, much less the rest of America.

Does Your Income Make You Upper Class, Middle Class, or Lower Class?

Where does your income fall relative to your fellow Americans? Find out how much the lower, middle, and upper classes are making.

www.fool.com

What it takes to be considered ‘rich’ in New York

Have you ever wondered how your income stacks up against your neighbors? New data analysis shows how much you need to make to be considered rich in New York City.

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My point was that it seems like money is never enough.

I do not notice a significant difference in lifestyle when my household income was ~115k in 2011-13 vs. now ~430k (salary + investment).

Still can't travel 1st class to Europe..


These numbers are too low.

• Lower class: This is defined as the bottom 20% of earners. Those in the lower class have an income at or below $28,007.
• Lower middle class: This is defined as individuals in the 20th to 40th percentile of household income. Earnings among this group are between $28,008 and $55,000
• Middle class: The middle class is officially those whose earnings put them in the 40th to 60th percentile of household income. The income range is $55,001 to $89,744.
• Upper middle class: Anyone with earnings in the 60th to 80th percentile would be considered upper middle class. Those in the upper middle class have incomes between $89,745 and $149,131.
• Upper class: Finally, the upper class is the top 20% of earners and they have incomes of $149,132 or higher.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

My point was that it seems like money is never enough.

I do not notice a significant difference in lifestyle when my household income was ~115k in 2011-13 vs. now ~430k (salary + investment).

Still can't travel 1st class to Europe..


These numbers are too low.

• Lower class: This is defined as the bottom 20% of earners. Those in the lower class have an income at or below $28,007.
• Lower middle class: This is defined as individuals in the 20th to 40th percentile of household income. Earnings among this group are between $28,008 and $55,000
• Middle class: The middle class is officially those whose earnings put them in the 40th to 60th percentile of household income. The income range is $55,001 to $89,744.
• Upper middle class: Anyone with earnings in the 60th to 80th percentile would be considered upper middle class. Those in the upper middle class have incomes between $89,745 and $149,131.
• Upper class: Finally, the upper class is the top 20% of earners and they have incomes of $149,132 or higher.

Again it doesn’t matter what you “feel” is too low. You’re in the top 20% (more like top 5-10%) of earners in the economy with the highest GDP per capita in the world. You’re upper class.

You certainly COULD travel first class to Europe if you wanted to, it’s just more expensive than you’d like.

 

[clausewitz2]

Again it doesn’t matter what you “feel” is too low. You’re in the top 20% (more like top 5-10%) of earners in the economy with the highest GDP per capita in the world. You’re upper class.

You certainly COULD travel first class to Europe if you wanted to, it’s just more expensiv

This is America, 'upper class's is 'anyone who makes appreciably more than me but definitely not me'.

 

[FlowRate]

This is America, 'upper class's is 'anyone who makes appreciably more than me but definitely not me'.

And if our standard is "flies first class to Europe a couple of times a year, buys brand new midsize luxury cars/suvs new every few years, and has a 1.2M+ house" (easy visible material class signifiers) then upper class is all of us spending $60-100k/yr on those things instead of aggressive retirement savings.

 

[Splenda88]

And if our standard is "flies first class to Europe a couple of times a year, buys brand new midsize luxury cars/suvs new every few years, and has a 1.2M+ house" (easy visible material class signifiers) then upper class is all of us spending $60-100k/yr on those things instead of aggressive retirement savings.

If the things the upper middle class can do the lower and the middle class can do them as well, you can make an argument there is nothing distinguishing them.

 

[mistafab]

Nonacademic inpatient gig
310 base
14-18 pts
No productivity
any pt over cap is addtl $100 per day
Weekend call q4 wk unpaid
No nights / no night call
+20k sign on
+20k retention (yearly)
leave when you're done
No noncompete
28 day pto
3k cme, + 3 days
1k professional fees pr yr

 

[Mad Jack]

Academic gig offering asst prof title (core faculty). Start at 240k base. Dept/faculty historically get 30k bonus per year. Clinical work is 100% w/ residents (attest only) on consults. weekdays only. call is q 2 months. Moonlighting permitted. PTO 4 weeks not including holidays (which are also given), Sick leave 3 weeks. There is additional target/compensation structure but mostly handwaving and minimal details in the contract. They have option for 20k additional as sign-on/relocation.

Seems pretty benign for academia? Planning to ask for salary increase on negotiation. I dont need relocation or signon, but would rather have both and a pay increase if possible. This is a coastal city but not extreme COL/desireable (i.e. not LA, NY)

Offer seems reasonable for an academic CL position. Any CME time?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

If the things the upper middle class can do the lower and the middle class can do them as well, you can make an argument there is nothing distinguishing them.

Right and someone making 150K/year or less could maybe pick one or none of those things but not all of them.

But again, this is not defined by your ability to consume or save or whatever. You decide what to do with the money you make. You could gamble all your income away that year and live in a trailer. Just because you want to sock away 100K in retirement savings instead of buying a Porsche Macan in cash that year doesn’t suddenly make someone middle class. There are actual income cutoffs that have some wiggle room but are generally accepted and we are all above those income cutoffs.

It’s a huge annoyance how many doctors go around talking about how they’re “middle class” and it’s a product of basically what @clausewitz2 succintly said. Even the “upper middle class” thing is basically a way for high earners to try to identify with the “common man” and pretend they aren’t high earners. Even if you went with a more limited wealth based view that upper class is “net worth >$1 mil” (which I don’t love because again people can choose to increase their net worth or not) thats still very in reach for the vast majority of people in the top 10+% income level.

 

[MedMan80]

Nonacademic inpatient gig
310 base
14-18 pts
No productivity
any pt over cap is addtl $100 per day
Weekend call q4 wk unpaid
No nights / no night call
+20k sign on
+20k retention (yearly)
leave when you're done
No noncompete
28 day pto
3k cme, + 3 days
1k professional fees pr yr

Nb, the Q4wk unpaid call kinda sucks. 12 weekend calls per year is like 60K, so you're only getting 250 base really..

 

[mistafab]

Offer seems reasonable for an academic CL position. Any CME time?

No dedicated CME time, however was told if I was a presenter then I can take as much time as needed throughout the year.

Nb, the Q4wk unpaid call kinda sucks. 12 weekend calls per year is like 60K, so you're only getting 250 base really..

That's the main issue. 2 days per month x 12 = 24 unpaid days of work, essentially x1.5-2k and your looking at 36k-48k that's rolled into your required duties above the M-F full time. Not to mention you'd work several holidays.

Meanwhile, I can get an outpatient 9-5 with 4 hours protected admin time (36 pt facing time) M-F with no weekends or call for 285k, same PTO and benefits.

These inpatient directors/CEOs really think they are doing charity work with their offers. The shock when you say "no" is priceless.

 

[MedMan80]

No dedicated CME time, however was told if I was a presenter then I can take as much time as needed throughout the year.

That's the main issue. 2 days per month x 12 = 24 unpaid days of work, essentially x1.5-2k and your looking at 36k-48k that's rolled into your required duties above the M-F full time. Not to mention you'd work several holidays.

Is this North texas by any chance? Had a system trying to get someone in for Inpatient work with compelled monthly call...

 

[mistafab]

Is this North texas by any chance? Had a system trying to get someone in for Inpatient work with compelled monthly call...

Have not looked around Texas at this point

 

[Mad Jack]

No dedicated CME time, however was told if I was a presenter then I can take as much time as needed throughout the year.

That's the main issue. 2 days per month x 12 = 24 unpaid days of work, essentially x1.5-2k and your looking at 36k-48k that's rolled into your required duties above the M-F full time. Not to mention you'd work several holidays.

Meanwhile, I can get an outpatient 9-5 with 4 hours protected admin time (36 pt facing time) M-F with no weekends or call for 285k, same PTO and benefits.

These inpatient directors/CEOs really think they are doing charity work with their offers. The shock when you say "no" is priceless.

Oh I missed the call, yeah that's too much. Hard pass

 

[wibbleylever]

Well so if it's a "hard cap" of 5 each for an inpatient unit, even if you have to cross cover for a total of 10, that's pretty easy. I'd make sure there's no non-compete or "big academic place allowed to take a cut of your outside work" and then recognize that this is a job where you can easy round in the AM and do clinic or PP in the afternoon for extra dough on the days you don't have ECT (I see you mentioned that somewhere too).

12 hours of PP per week from 1-5 is another 100K+/year easy.

Thanks for the input! There’s for sure no noncompete and they don’t take any cut from your outside work. You’re also allowed to use your hospital office for your own PP so there’s some savings with overhead. I’d also qualify for a loan repayment program that would effectively add $70K post-tax to my salary for three years, although I’d probably get that with any of the full time academic or non-private jobs I take in this area.

 

[untapped]

My point was that it seems like money is never enough.

I do not notice a significant difference in lifestyle when my household income was ~115k in 2011-13 vs. now ~430k (salary + investment).

Still can't travel 1st class to Europe..

Why can’t you fly 1st class to Europe?

If your income increased 300k and there’s no difference in lifestyle that’s by choice.

 

[Splenda88]

Why can’t you fly 1st class to Europe?

If your income increased 300k and there’s no difference in lifestyle that’s by choice.

It would be too much money for a family of 4.

There is some improvement in lifestyle. But it's not significant in my opinion.

 

[untapped]

I imagine supporting a family of 4 on 115k is way harder than on 430k.

 

[Splenda88]

I imagine supporting a family of 4 on 115k is way harder than on 430k.

2011-2014 is different from 2021-2024 in term of $$$ purchasing power.

To be honest, I must say I have more wiggle room in term of spending now. Yes, we stay in hotels that are $400-700+/night now as opposed to $120-180/night back then.

My spouse, for instance, can say let's fly out to NY and go to a Madonna (eye roll emoji) concert on December 13th, which I don't think she would have said in 2011-2014.

The person or family at the top of the 10% (eg., top 1%) has a completely different lifestyle from someone at the bottom of the top 10%.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

2011-2014 is different from 2021-2024 in term of $$$ purchasing power.

To be honest, I must say I have more wiggle room in term of spending now. Yes, we stay in hotels that are $400-700+/night now as opposed to $120-180/night back then.

My spouse, for instance, can say let's fly out to NY and go to a Madonna (eye roll emoji) concert on December 13th, which I don't think she would have said in 2011-2014.

The person or family at the top of the 10% (eg., top 1%) has a completely different lifestyle from someone at the bottom of the top 10%.

It’s 30% difference in purchasing power over that time period (2011-2023) not 373%. And that’s including the crazy inflation over the last few years.

 

[Splenda88]

It’s 30% difference in purchasing power over that time period (2011-2023) not 373%. And that’s including the crazy inflation over the last few years.

Are you saying making ~430k over that period (2011-2023) is only 30% difference in term of purchasing power? It seems like it's more than that.

 

[Mad Jack]

Are you saying making ~430k over that period (2011-2023) is only 30% difference in term of purchasing power? It seems like it's more than that.

115k in 2011 would have the same buying power as 161k today. A salary of 430k today is equivalent to a salary of 308k in 2011, using CPI figures.

 

[Splenda88]

115k in 2011 would have the same buying power as 161k today. A salary of 430k today is equivalent to a salary of 308k in 2011, using CPI figures.

That is ~40%, which is insane. That is why I don't agree with how they classify these classes

I think it would make mores sense to go with:

< 50k/yr lower class
50-80k/yr lower middle class
80k-150k/yr middle class
150-250k/yr upper middle class
250-500k/yr upper class
> 500k/yr wealthy class

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

That is ~40%, which is insane. That is why I don't agree with how they classify these classes

I think it would make mores sense to go with:

< 50k/yr lower class
50-80k/yr lower middle class
80k-150k/yr middle class
150-250k/yr upper middle class
250-500k/yr upper class
> 500k/yr wealthy class

It's somewhere between 30-40% if you go from sometime in 2011, it depends on where you set the "begin" date because there was relatively larger bump in inflation in the middle vs rest of the year in 2011. If you set it at 2013 for a 10 year average it's about 31%. The point is that your income almost quadrupled over that time period so the argument of "but there's so much inflation" doesn't really make sense.

 

[Mad Jack]

That is ~40%, which is insane. That is why I don't agree with how they classify these classes

I think it would make mores sense to go with:

< 50k/yr lower class
50-80k/yr lower middle class
80k-150k/yr middle class
150-250k/yr upper middle class
250-500k/yr upper class
> 500k/yr wealthy class

Wealth and social class is a dicey thing. I think income is very disconnected form true social and wealth class. In my book, wealthy=your investments pay for your lifestyle and work is optional. Everything else is just different shades of middle class, working class, and poverty, aside from some outliers that make and spend millions out of financial illiteracy. Social class is a topic into itself.

 

[Mad Jack]

It's somewhere between 30-40% if you go from sometime in 2011, it depends on where you set the "begin" date because there was relatively larger bump in inflation in the middle vs rest of the year in 2011. If you set it at 2013 for a 10 year average it's about 31%. The point is that your income almost quadrupled over that time period so the argument of "but there's so much inflation" doesn't really make sense.

I set it January 2011-september 2023

 

[finalpsychyear]

I imagine supporting a family of 4 on 115k is way harder than on 430k.

Yeah i believe the poster lives very rural and has a mortage under 2k/mo is making 430k/yr also has some investment property and stays in 400-700/night rooms..

There is a difference between saying you can't afford it or your choosing to fly coach. If i had 2 high school kids id have them be in coach and the wife and I in first but europe is what a 7 hr flt from nyc...not sure thats worth it for me imo.

Heck i have to fly solo to new delhi from nyc next year and im struggling to justify a 14 hr direct flt in coach for 1000 bucks or 5k for first class provided i get to spend the difference on something else.

 

[Splenda88]

Yeah i believe the poster lives very rural and has a mortage under 2k/mo is making 430k/yr also has some investment property and stays in 400-700/night rooms..

There is a difference between saying you can't afford it or your choosing to fly coach. If i had 2 high school kids id have them be in coach and the wife and I in first but europe is what a 7 hr flt from nyc...not sure thats worth it for me imo.

Heck i have to fly solo to new delhi from nyc next year and im struggling to justify a 14 hr direct flt in coach for 1000 bucks or 5k for first class provided i get to spend the difference on something else.

Not quite rural. Small city of a population of ~60k

Yes, my mortgage is ~$1600/month because home price is not outrageous here and I don't believe having more spaces than I need. Therefore, 2000-2400 sqff is more than enough for the 4 of us.

My kids are younger than HS kids and my spouse would probably not be ok wit our kids not sitting next to us on a long flight.

 

[Stagg737]

Academic faculty job in high COL pretty saturated market. “Prestigious” institution which explains the pretty low pay - $200k base with $45K signing bonus. No RVU target. Combo inpatient with two afternoons of ECT per week. For the inpatient side of the job, hard patient cap of 5 (except when cross covering). Four required weekends rounding per year covering this and another unit (40 pts total). Unit split between 4 docs and you are expected to cross cover when others are on vacation. Dedicated SW who does all family meetings, aftercare, daily therapy with patient. I’m not entirely sure what the ECT afternoons look like but looks like people pick up shifts and cover all the patients scheduled during that shift (1-5pm likely). A lot of people do PP in the afternoons and malpractice is covered. 20 vacation days plus holidays, 12 sick days. Full benefits. Occasionally there will be residents rotating through but mostly covering patients yourself as they usually go to some of the more senior attendings.

So basically, low pay but a pretty chill workload with opportunity and time to supplement with PP. Thoughts on this offer? Salary is apparently not negotiable.

Thanks for the input! There’s for sure no noncompete and they don’t take any cut from your outside work. You’re also allowed to use your hospital office for your own PP so there’s some savings with overhead. I’d also qualify for a loan repayment program that would effectively add $70K post-tax to my salary for three years, although I’d probably get that with any of the full time academic or non-private jobs I take in this area.

Not great, but not bad for an academic job for the workload. Imo the killer is HCOL area. Seems like the kind of job to do for 2-3 years to get that loan repayment if needed and get the "prestigious" (if socially and nationally prestigious like Harvard/Yale/Stanford, imo anything less probably isn't worth it) name brand before moving to something else. Do this while building up your PP if that's what you want then going PP full time.

Nonacademic inpatient gig
310 base
14-18 pts
No productivity
any pt over cap is addtl $100 per day
Weekend call q4 wk unpaid
No nights / no night call
+20k sign on
+20k retention (yearly)
leave when you're done
No noncompete
28 day pto
3k cme, + 3 days
1k professional fees pr yr

This either needs productivity or a significant bump in base for me to even bother. Unpaid call without productivity? Really? I'm academic and my call shifts are both paid a flat rate + wRVUs count toward productivity. I've posted about it before, but a job I looked at seriously had similar workload to this but would have made at least $450k/yr after production (base was $250k) for a patient load of 16-20/day.

 

[mistafab]

Not great, but not bad for an academic job for the workload. Imo the killer is HCOL area. Seems like the kind of job to do for 2-3 years to get that loan repayment if needed and get the "prestigious" (if socially and nationally prestigious like Harvard/Yale/Stanford, imo anything less probably isn't worth it) name brand before moving to something else. Do this while building up your PP if that's what you want then going PP full time.


This either needs productivity or a significant bump in base for me to even bother. Unpaid call without productivity? Really? I'm academic and my call shifts are both paid a flat rate + wRVUs count toward productivity. I've posted about it before, but a job I looked at seriously had similar workload to this but would have made at least $450k/yr after production (base was $250k) for a patient load of 16-20/day.

Totally agree. I think this job is a little less work than it looks (out by noon situation), but even as it stands, with the call wrapped in this is an okay job, not terrible or great.

 

[Ubba]

My point was that it seems like money is never enough.

I do not notice a significant difference in lifestyle when my household income was ~115k in 2011-13 vs. now ~430k (salary + investment).

Still can't travel 1st class to Europe..


These numbers are too low.

• Lower class: This is defined as the bottom 20% of earners. Those in the lower class have an income at or below $28,007.
• Lower middle class: This is defined as individuals in the 20th to 40th percentile of household income. Earnings among this group are between $28,008 and $55,000
• Middle class: The middle class is officially those whose earnings put them in the 40th to 60th percentile of household income. The income range is $55,001 to $89,744.
• Upper middle class: Anyone with earnings in the 60th to 80th percentile would be considered upper middle class. Those in the upper middle class have incomes between $89,745 and $149,131.
• Upper class: Finally, the upper class is the top 20% of earners and they have incomes of $149,132 or higher.

Agree that those numbers are silly, but your example of flying first class is the kind of money-wasting that most people who become moderately wealthy disdain. Spend a few dozen dollars getting buzzed in the airport and on the plane, and your objective experience will be just fine, with savings amounting to thousands.

The demand for and allure of first-class seating hinges mostly on the human desire to feel superior to/more successful than other people.

 

[Splenda88]

Agree that those numbers are silly, but your example of flying first class is the kind of money-wasting that most people who become moderately wealthy disdain. Spend a few dozen dollars getting buzzed in the airport and on the plane, and your objective experience will be just fine, with savings amounting to thousands.

The demand for and allure of first-class seating hinges mostly on the human desire to feel superior to/more successful than other people.

I hope this is not the case for most people who travel first class. Sitting in these airplane seats like spaghetti on a can for 4+ hours is uncomfortable. It is not about feeling superior or mores successful.

 

[ObsequiousAplomb]

I know that first class has nothing to do with prestige for me. It's all about the seat comfort and hip room. If they had an option for the same seats as first class but the service of coach, I'd go for that. Unfortunately the other classes all skimp on seat comfort.

 

[FlowRate]

I know that first class has nothing to do with prestige for me. It's all about the seat comfort and hip room. If they had an option for the same seats as first class but the service of coach, I'd go for that. Unfortunately the other classes all skimp on seat comfort.

Not a fan of business/economy plus? It sounds like, at least for international flights, there's some significant seat comfort changes. I haven't experienced that yet but I've been strongly considering those upgrades for whenever I take an international trip. 12 hours in coach sounds terrible in general but especially as a tall person...

 

[ObsequiousAplomb]

Not a fan of business/economy plus? It sounds like, at least for international flights, there's some significant seat comfort changes. I haven't experienced that yet but I've been strongly considering those upgrades for whenever I take an international trip. 12 hours in coach sounds terrible in general but especially as a tall person...

admittedly, I have only ever purchased coach seats my entire life. I have lucked out and been upgraded or traded seats enough that I have ridden in all the other locations, but only for domestic flights. From what I recall, the seats are ever so slightly better in business and economy plus, but that I still can't comfortably sit the way I want to. If I were to pay for anything other than coach, it would be for economy plus or business, but if I were to ever fly internationally I just know I couldn't manage the seats long enough anywhere but first class.

I'm not even tall. I'm 5'8", I just like to cross my legs.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

admittedly, I have only ever purchased coach seats my entire life. I have lucked out and been upgraded or traded seats enough that I have ridden in all the other locations, but only for domestic flights. From what I recall, the seats are ever so slightly better in business and economy plus, but that I still can't comfortably sit the way I want to. If I were to pay for anything other than coach, it would be for economy plus or business, but if I were to ever fly internationally I just know I couldn't manage the seats long enough anywhere but first class.

I'm not even tall. I'm 5'8", I just like to cross my legs.

You can cross your legs in business class especially in long haul international flights. Many of these are significantly reclining/lay flat seats. The cost difference is also substantial (like 10K difference between first and business class per ticket). Would cost maybe 15K to do round trip from chicago to london for a family of four...definitely doable on the incomes we're talking about here.

 

[Merovinge]

admittedly, I have only ever purchased coach seats my entire life. I have lucked out and been upgraded or traded seats enough that I have ridden in all the other locations, but only for domestic flights. From what I recall, the seats are ever so slightly better in business and economy plus, but that I still can't comfortably sit the way I want to. If I were to pay for anything other than coach, it would be for economy plus or business, but if I were to ever fly internationally I just know I couldn't manage the seats long enough anywhere but first class.

I'm not even tall. I'm 5'8", I just like to cross my legs.

I'm sorry but if you can't sit comfortably in business class seats at 5'8" you either have a serious medical condition or a case of goldenspoonitis.

 

[ObsequiousAplomb]

I'm sorry but if you can't sit comfortably in business class seats at 5'8" you either have a serious medical condition or a case of goldenspoonitis.

it's the first one