Guanfacine liquid

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PikminOC

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I am giving a kid liquid guanfacine. It comes as a liquid. However, the pharmacy is compounding this medicine and the insurance says they won't cover it. Should this be compounded? The insurance piece is a separate issue. I just dont know why it's being compounded rather than ordering the liquid and giving the child that medicine.

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Seems weird to me. In general we shouldn’t compound commercially available medications, although it’s easy enough to get around by slightly altering the concentration or formulation. I can think of basically two reasons other than an availability issue - either it is an insurance issue or a profit issue. Since the insurance isn’t covering it anyway that leaves availability or profit.

Did you try asking the pharmacy why they are compounding it?
 
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I'm just going to send them to a different pharmacy. This pharmacy is making it a different concentration. I'm not going to call them
 
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It is illegal to compound a commercially available product unless you meet certain circumstances: (examples)
1. Product not available
2. Pt is allergic to some inactive ingredients in the commercially available product.
3. The dosage is different enough to be clinically important. This is a grey area as I believe a compounding pharmacy got in trouble making some breathing treatments that were just slightly different concentration - then they could bill the insurance for $$$$. That being said, big pharma pulls this all the time with combo products (Symbyax anyone?)

That being said, I didn't realize Guanfacine was available as a liquid - but I don't deal with the pediatric population. Ironically a google search for guanfacine liquid - the first entry is a compounded product link. Are we sure it is commercially available? I am not at work and can't search our wholesaler database.

If it is, the pharmacy is possibly being shady by saying it requires compounding. That being said, If I had to guess they can't get the commerically available product because unless you are a compounding pharamcy - dealing with compounded rx's is such a pain in the ass it isn't worth most of our time. I work hospital, but used to moonlight at CVS and if I ever got a compounded Rx I was just like "son of a bitch, I don't have time for this" so I would never have compounded something unless necessary.
 
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I'm just going to send them to a different pharmacy. This pharmacy is making it a different concentration. I'm not going to call them

I’m just curious about this.. what concentration did you order? What concentration did they compound?

Is this a chain/independent pharmacy?
 
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It is NOT commercially available as a liquid. It needs to be compounded if you want it to be a liquid.
 
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I am giving a kid liquid guanfacine. It comes as a liquid. However, the pharmacy is compounding this medicine and the insurance says they won't cover it. Should this be compounded? The insurance piece is a separate issue. I just dont know why it's being compounded rather than ordering the liquid and giving the child that medicine.
Two words for you: clonidine patch
 
Guanfacine 1mg per 1 ml. I never had this problem before. Pharmacy made it in a different concentration. Insurance just gave them a letter they won't cover it since it's compounded. Even tho they covered it a few times.
 
Guanfacine 1mg per 1 ml. I never had this problem before. Pharmacy made it in a different concentration. Insurance just gave them a letter they won't cover it since it's compounded. Even tho they covered it a few times.
I am looking at this product in my system and it doesn’t show there is such a commercially available product. (Only tablets) So that would be why they have to compound it. I wondering if their insurance changed (either different plan or the insurance rules changed) and that is why it is no longer covered?
 
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Lots of insurances will cover so many fills and then require a P.A. And of course formularies change constantly and without notice. Insurance formularies rarely make sense from the outside looking in.
 
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Guanfacine 1mg per 1 ml. I never had this problem before. Pharmacy made it in a different concentration. Insurance just gave them a letter they won't cover it since it's compounded. Even tho they covered it a few times.
Dr. Heist: I used to see this dentist, who’d wait until I was in the chair with his tools in my mouth, then b!tch about the drugstore across the street. They wouldn’t let him call in cipro for his daughter even though it was to treat a UTI caused by the antibiotics he’d already given her for an abscessed tooth…that kind of thing.

What I’m saying is: you should wait until you have one of us in the ECT room, or something and I’m certain you’ll get a more sympathetic response:
 
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Lots of insurances will cover so many fills and then require a P.A. And of course formularies change constantly and without notice. Insurance formularies rarely make sense from the outside looking in.
Yup, currently on the PA side, dealing with lots of Vyvanses due to a formulary change which makes no sense to me.
 
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Yup, currently on the PA side, dealing with lots of Vyvanses due to a formulary change which makes no sense to me.
I understand that with Vyvanse. I'm just going to give my patients info to pay cash for it. I don't care if responses are sympathetic. I just wanted info and I got it.
 
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Lots of insurances will cover so many fills and then require a P.A. And of course formularies change constantly and without notice. Insurance formularies rarely make sense from the outside looking in.
The insurance letter says compounded meds may not be
Pure. They're not saying they want a pa. They just don't want to pay for it anymore
 
The insurance letter says compounded meds may not be
Pure. They're not saying they want a pa. They just don't want to pay for it anymore
pretty typical of insurance companies unfortunately, if only there was a way to get them out of the business of screwing with healthcare - hmmmm. I know a few countries that could help....
 
I understand that with Vyvanse. I'm just going to give my patients info to pay cash for it. I don't care if responses are sympathetic. I just wanted info and I got it.
I’m sorry wasn’t trying to be mean. Apologize if it came off that way.

I was responding to a comment unrelated to your inquiry.
 
Lots of insurances will cover so many fills and then require a P.A. And of course formularies change constantly and without notice. Insurance formularies rarely make sense from the outside looking in.
The insurance letter says compounded meds may not be
Pure. They're not saying they want a pa. They just don't want to pay for it any
The insurance letter says compounded meds may not be
Pure. They're not saying they want a pa. They just don't want to pay for it anymore
<redacted> pharmacist wrote the letter to the family saying that compounded medicine is not approved by the FDA. That's literally what the letter says.
 
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The insurance letter says compounded meds may not be
Pure. They're not saying they want a pa. They just don't want to pay for it any

…pharmacist wrote the letter to the family saying that compounded medicine is not approved by the FDA. That's literally what the letter says.
I don’t understand the point of your replies but I would be very curious to read that letter for myself. Saying that compounded medications are not approved by the FDA is like saying that home cooked steaks are not approved by the FDA. It’s…not untrue, strictly speaking.
 
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I don’t understand the point of your replies but I would be very curious to read that letter for myself. Saying that compounded medications are not approved by the FDA is like saying that home cooked steaks are not approved by the FDA. It’s…not untrue, strictly speaking.
That's what it said. Thats their excuse for not paying. Whatever.
 
The insurance letter says compounded meds may not be
Pure. They're not saying they want a pa. They just don't want to pay for it any

Xxx xxxx pharmacist wrote the letter to the family saying that compounded medicine is not approved by the FDA. That's literally what the letter says.
Mods, please edit this post. Heist, that’s just nasty. I worked prior auth for years and one of my responsibilities was dealing with physicians just like you. The pharmacist you doxxed is doing his job, enforcing the limitations of the insurance that your patient’s family or their employer paid for. Everyone complains healthcare costs too much; this is how costs are kept down.

You’ve spent so much time on this letter, why not read their plan documents? I expect you’ll find an exclusion for compounded products. If I had to hazard a guess as to why it was previously covered [Note: I’ve been out of the retail and PBM games for years], the pharmacy was billing for straight drug and not a compounded product. Either they complained they weren’t getting reimbursed enough or an excessive quantity triggered an audit (i.e. they billed for 480 ml and the insurer had been paying for 480 tablets).

At any rate, I’d guess we’re talking about a $30-$50 a month charge. Have them find another pharmacy if it’s more than that. Didn’t you say in another thread that you don’t keep electronic records and your patients’ parents are all cash payers so Big Brother can’t see what meds they’re taking? Alternatively, use a commercially available product. I’d be happy to help if you’d like some suggestions…other than the aforementioned clonidine patch. Comes on so slow there’s no post dose lethargy.
 
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Mods, please edit this post. Heist, that’s just nasty.

I worked Prior Auth for years. And unfortunately, I dealt with physicians like you for years. You’ve spent so much time on this letter. How about reading their policy documents? Either the compounded med is a plan exclusion, or there will be information contained in the letter telling the family how to appeal the decision. My guess is it’s an exclusion; have the parents take it up with their employer if they’re unhappy with their insurance. Didn’t you have a thread about not keeping electronic records and only seeing patients that pay cash for everything so


Mods, please edit this post. Heist, that’s just nasty. I worked prior auth for years and one of my responsibilities was dealing with physicians just like you. The pharmacist you doxxed is doing his job, enforcing the limitations of the insurance that your patient’s family or their employer paid for. Everyone complains healthcare costs too much; this is how costs are kept down.

You’ve spent so much time on this letter, why not read their plan documents? I expect you’ll find an exclusion for compounded products. If I had to hazard a guess as to why it was previously covered [Note: I’ve been out of the retail and PBM games for years], the pharmacy was billing for straight drug and not a compounded product. Either they complained they weren’t getting reimbursed enough or an excessive quantity triggered an audit (i.e. they billed for 480 ml and the insurer had been paying for 480 tablets).

At any rate, I’d guess we’re talking about a $30-$50 a month charge. Have them find another pharmacy if it’s more than that. Didn’t you say in another thread that you don’t keep electronic records and your patients’ parents are all cash payers so Big Brother can’t see what meds they’re taking? Alternatively, use a commercially available product. I’d be happy to help if you’d like some suggestions…other than the aforementioned clonidine patch. Comes on so slow there’s no post dose lethargy.
She only showed me one page of what they sent. That page didn't say anything about how to appeal. Looks likes starting Jan 2023 they don't cover any compounded meds.

Who on earth reads all that stuff regarding their health insurance?
 
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I am giving a kid liquid guanfacine. It comes as a liquid. However, the pharmacy is compounding this medicine and the insurance says they won't cover it. Should this be compounded? The insurance piece is a separate issue. I just dont know why it's being compounded rather than ordering the liquid and giving the child that medicine.
"I wrote a prescription for a drug that doesn't exist! Why did this pharmacy compound it?!?
Instead of picking up a phone and asking, I'm just going to send the Rx to another pharmacy!"
 
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She only showed me one page of what they sent. That page didn't say anything about how to appeal. Looks likes starting Jan 2023 they don't cover any compounded meds.

Who on earth reads all that stuff regarding their health insurance?
People who have kids that have medical issues requiring specific meds. Pharmacists for their own families. Responsible people. People who have been burned by their insurance before.

It isn't uncommon for pharmacies to be willing to bill the tablet, have the insurance pay for that, and then have patient cash pay for the compounding supplies/service. You would have to actually call the pharmacy to talk to them about this though.
 
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People who have kids that have medical issues requiring specific meds. Pharmacists for their own families. Responsible people. People who have been burned by their insurance before.

It isn't uncommon for pharmacies to be willing to bill the tablet, have the insurance pay for that, and then have patient cash pay for the compounding supplies/service. You would have to actually call the pharmacy to talk to them about this though.
Talk to someone?????? The audacity!!!

(I hope my attempt at humor was apparent here)
 
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People who have kids that have medical issues requiring specific meds. Pharmacists for their own families. Responsible people. People who have been burned by their insurance before.

It isn't uncommon for pharmacies to be willing to bill the tablet, have the insurance pay for that, and then have patient cash pay for the compounding supplies/service. You would have to actually call the pharmacy to talk to them about this though.
The tablet isn't where the cost comes in. Guanfacine is very cheap.
 
The tablet isn't where the cost comes in. Guanfacine is very cheap.
what dose are they getting? If a multiple of 1mg or 1/2 a mg- can they just crush it and take with applesauce of something?

Again, insurance companies not covering compounded drugs is pretty common, and despite your insistence, I am probably 99% sure this not an issue at the local pharmacy, but with their insurance, so I wouldn't blame the local Rph.

Are you a pyschiatrist? The reason I ask, is I am suprised if you are - that you thought this product was commercially available this whole time.
 
I have removed the pharmacist's name due to it being in poor taste to share it. Thank you to the folks who reported it as I confess I completely overlooked it when I was reading through the first time.
 
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what dose are they getting? If a multiple of 1mg or 1/2 a mg- can they just crush it and take with applesauce of something?

Again, insurance companies not covering compounded drugs is pretty common, and despite your insistence, I am probably 99% sure this not an issue at the local pharmacy, but with their insurance, so I wouldn't blame the local Rph.

Are you a pyschiatrist? The reason I ask, is I am suprised if you are - that you thought this product was commercially available this whole time.
Everything about OP confuses me. Imagine telling pharmacists which medications are cheap or expensive, what is or is not commercially available, how insurance works, etc. Why even come and ask us for information if you will be so hostile to all the replies? Like it is genuinely baffling to me.
 
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Everything about OP confuses me. Imagine telling pharmacists which medications are cheap or expensive, what is or is not commercially available, how insurance works, etc. Why even come and ask us for information if you will be so hostile to all the replies? Like it is genuinely baffling to me.
It's pretty much on par with any other time s/he posts here
 
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Everything about OP confuses me. Imagine telling pharmacists which medications are cheap or expensive, what is or is not commercially available, how insurance works, etc. Why even come and ask us for information if you will be so hostile to all the replies? Like it is genuinely baffling to me.
I use goodrx for price. It's not the extended release. It's dirt cheap.
 
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The starting dosage of guanfacine is 1 mg per day. The dosage can be titrated up in increments of 1 mg per week to a maximum dosage of 4 mg per day. Tablets should not be chewed or crushed.
...
And the pharmacist was the one on the insurance letter.
 
It's pretty much on par with any other time s/he posts here


I would like to add that my favorite episode of, Southpark is the, “World of Warcraft” episode.

Due to his avatar I’ll give him a second chance.. Just don’t blame the pharmacy again, Heist - it’s a bad look and frankly we are all sick of it..
 
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I would like to add that my favorite episode of, Southpark is the, “World of Warcraft” episode.

Due to his avatar I’ll give him a second chance.. Just don’t blame the pharmacy again, Heist - it’s a bad look and frankly we are all sick of it..
My favorite is the human centipede episode
 
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The starting dosage of guanfacine is 1 mg per day. The dosage can be titrated up in increments of 1 mg per week to a maximum dosage of 4 mg per day. Tablets should not be chewed or crushed.
...
And the pharmacist was the one on the insurance letter.

Your bolded part only applies to Intuniv (ER) not to Tenex (IR). We have been crushing guanfacine immediate release since the 90's for administration in children.

Just because the pharmacist was the one on a letter to a patient, doesn't mean that you should publish their name here.
 
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Your bolded part only applies to Intuniv (ER) not to Tenex (IR). We have been crushing guanfacine immediate release since the 90's for administration in children.

Just because the pharmacist was the one on a letter to a patient, doesn't mean that you should publish their name here.
Crushing and putting in applesauce? I put the name to give it more legitimacy as one poster was doubting that what I wrote was true.
 
Crushing and putting in applesauce? I put the name to give it more legitimacy as one poster was doubting that what I wrote was true.
Apple sauce is okay, but has more of a risk for missing some of the dose depending on how much it is mixed in. Usually we recommend no more than single spoonful.

Juice works too, and while no studies have been done (that I could find) that look and changes to pharmacokinetics with different vehicles, clinical experience says it works. It's often a lot easier to get juice in an exact measurement and be sure it dissolved.


Putting a name here doesn't lend your argument any legitimacy as it isn't proof. You have been around long enough to know that naming private individuals on the internet isn't cool. Would you be okay if that pharmacist came in and put up your real name?
 
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All this anxiety for a little bit of Intuniv in some applesauce/pudding…
 
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Crushing and putting in applesauce? I put the name to give it more legitimacy as one poster was doubting that what I wrote was true.
I will default to @KidPharmD for the best vehicle, but I have done applesauce or pudding for adults all the time. I should have said make sure the amount is small enough the pt takes it all. In the ED we will often out some injectible decadron or zofran into a small amount of juice of formula (depending on the age of the child).

PS best south park line of all time "Respect my authority"
 
I use goodrx for price. It's not the extended release. It's dirt cheap.
I was gonna write a long and detailed post, but your posts here make it clear that you would just oink at the pearls being cast before you.

I'll make it simple:. GoodRx bad. GoodRx fake. Talk to pharmacist.
 
I was gonna write a long and detailed post, but your posts here make it clear that you would just oink at the pearls being cast before you.

I'll make it simple:. GoodRx bad. GoodRx fake. Talk to pharmacist.
Genuinely curious what you mean by this.
 
Genuinely curious what you mean by this.
GoodRx doesn't have any incentive to provide accurate drug pricing without their discount card, so they generally don't. Their discount card also really cuts into the margins at the pharmacy. They actually pay very little and mostly just have a negotiated rate lower than the cash price. Big pharmacies deal with it to keep up volumes but some are starting to refuse to deal with GoodRx.

Their business model is that they use the card they give out to collect patient data and use that to advertise and sell to others. Their privacy policy is pretty terrifying actually when you realize how much info GoodRx gets when we submit a claim.
 
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GoodRx doesn't have any incentive to provide accurate drug pricing without their discount card, so they generally don't. Their discount card also really cuts into the margins at the pharmacy. They actually pay very little and mostly just have a negotiated rate lower than the cash price. Big pharmacies deal with it to keep up volumes but some are starting to refuse to deal with GoodRx.

Their business model is that they use the card they give out to collect patient data and use that to advertise and sell to others. Their privacy policy is pretty terrifying actually when you realize how much info GoodRx gets when we submit a claim.
Fair enough.

That being the case, how should I go about getting the best prices for cash pay patients or patients whose insurance doesn't cover certain medications?
 
Fair enough.

That being the case, how should I go about getting the best prices for cash pay patients or patients whose insurance doesn't cover certain medications?
I mean... GoodRx if you absolutely have to. Look at things like the Walmart $4 list, help them get registered for Medicaid if they qualify, look for brand name options that have patient assistance programs, if it's long-term medications - the walgreens prescription savings program might work for them. Ultimately - vote for representatives who support literally any plan better than what we have now for healthcare costs in the US.
 
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Fair enough.

That being the case, how should I go about getting the best prices for cash pay patients or patients whose insurance doesn't cover certain medications?
They basically hit the nail on the head. I could also illustrate another couple points:
How much does a single cooked Hamburger patty cost?
Well, are we talking McDonald's or Five guys?

Secondly, if you'll indulge me:
You are going to pull up the list and say "GoodRx says that it's $5.88 at Walgreens. "
Your MA is then going to escribe it to the last selected pharmacy, and the script goes to Costco, where the GoodRx price is $47.22. The patient then argues with the staff for a few days. Finally, the Rx may or may not get transferred to Walgreens where the staff is too busy or incompetent to bill GoodRx, so they'll just tell the patient the cash price is the GoodRx price.

The answer to the "how do i get the best price?" will always be to find a good mom 'n pop independent pharmacy that is willing to work with you.

I would literally rather lose money on a script than bill to GoodRx, and i did do that many times. The good will and word if mouth generated by beating a GoodRx price by even $0.50 sticks in a patient/customer's mind.
It also illustrated to the patient that i did indeed know more about drug pricing than doctors like Heist, hahaha.
 
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They basically hit the nail on the head. I could also illustrate another couple points:
How much does a single cooked Hamburger patty cost?
Well, are we talking McDonald's or Five guys?

Secondly, if you'll indulge me:
You are going to pull up the list and say "GoodRx says that it's $5.88 at Walgreens. "
Your MA is then going to escribe it to the last selected pharmacy, and the script goes to Costco, where the GoodRx price is $47.22. The patient then argues with the staff for a few days. Finally, the Rx may or may not get transferred to Walgreens where the staff is too busy or incompetent to bill GoodRx, so they'll just tell the patient the cash price is the GoodRx price.

The answer to the "how do i get the best price?" will always be to find a good mom 'n pop independent pharmacy that is willing to work with you.

I would literally rather lose money on a script than bill to GoodRx, and i did do that many times. The good will and word if mouth generated by beating a GoodRx price by even $0.50 sticks in a patient/customer's mind.
It also illustrated to the patient that i did indeed know more about drug pricing than doctors like Heist, hahaha.
So first, I prescribe my own medications. I'm way too anal to let anyone do it for me.

I so have an independent pharmacy I use but the prices aren't always all that great. I've had patients use Goodrx themselves and transfer from the independent guy.

My issue is that outside of the Walmart list, I have no way to know cash prices without calling the pharmacy every time a drug comes up and that's a pretty big pain in the backside.
 
Nothing wrong with goodrx. I think it’s great and I have used it for my family.

They do sell your private info though. So, you gotta be okay with that..
 
So first, I prescribe my own medications. I'm way too anal to let anyone do it for me.

I so have an independent pharmacy I use but the prices aren't always all that great. I've had patients use Goodrx themselves and transfer from the independent guy.

My issue is that outside of the Walmart list, I have no way to know cash prices without calling the pharmacy every time a drug comes up and that's a pretty big pain in the backside.
Fair enough 👍.

That's what i was getting at with the burger illustration.
Cash price doesn't exist as a monolith. Prices with wholesalers vary, rebates for contract also vary greatly, GPOs, etc...
 
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