Hanging Up The Hat...So long Folks

[CoffeeFreak]

Well it has been a fun 4 weeks. I really have no point to this thread except to encourage others to follow their dream. It is not for me.

Having spent approx. 30-40 hours reading posts over the past weeks I've decided that I just don't have the stamina to endure and time, energy and expense of additional schooling, pre-reqs. MCAT prep, applications, ECs, and all the other necessary items to seek the slight possiblity that I might have an interview. My initial interest began when I was 18 as a bright eyed and bushy tailed youngster. I made a 4.0 my first 2 semesters and then failed to have the confidence to move into the heavy sciences as required by my major. I moved on to another interest.

A few months ago I was inspired by my partner's brother who had returned to college at 30 to complete the pre-reqs. then earned a seat at med school.
I am 29 and married and feel that the extra time and energy could be devoted to my wife and our future family.

To thine own self be true. I don't have the drive. I hear all this talk about aspiring to help people. I think my journey to seek admission to med school is more of sort of self-esteem objective rather that to truly accomplish something noble. Maybe I'm a little jaded, bitter or resentful but most of all I'm angry at myself for losing confidence during college when I was younger. I don't my battleground should include MCAT, GPA and LORs. My grandfather, now retired, was genuine and devoted to medicine. His accomplishments read on and on and he made a difference. I don't want to begin this career at 30.

And it doesn't stop once you get you the thick envelope in the mail. The stress only begins, then residency, then practice. There has been a lot of negative things written by med students and residents in SDN about being a doc these days. the fact that many prodecures and responsibilities are being farmed out to the allied health folks like PAs and RNs.

Some of my doc friends have told me flat out with conviction and sincerity that the profession has rapidly changed in the last few years. Of course other professions are host to the disenchanted too. Consider the profession of law. There are books written on why to avoid a legal career. It just comes down to a personal decision.

I want to be remembered by my family, by my children and most importantly by my wife. I don't want to be paged at 3a.m. or miss my kids soccer game for someone else. I just realized this. I was inspired by the potential accomplishment and the image of medicine and NOT medicine itself. When it comes down to it I am too much of an entrepreneur to have my life be restricted by the incessant stream of tasks, requests, and hoops to jump through.

I seek comfort in Ayn Rand's Anthem, the last sentence of the book. "What could of been.."

I really have to get on with my life so I wish all non-trads the best. I'm an entrepreneur and have been extremely successful in terms of income. I hope you don't leave your family, friends and spouse behind in the process. This pre-med stuff is a serious game and a game that you can win. I look forward to long walks in the woods, NCAA basketball, camping out at the lake house, trips to Europe, skiing in Vail not Organic Chemistry, volunteering, shadowing docs, and trying to find someone to help me get published. It goes without saying these are the necessary sacrifices. (I am going to stop my rambling here before the battle hymn of the Republic pipes up in the backgound)

Please don't let my remarks misguide you. This is simply not the career for me. Good luck and I hope you have a happy life in medicine.

One of the best guys I've read from is LSUwannabe. Check out his his threads under the research bar. Moosepilot, Blee you guys rock!

When it comes down to it we are all architects of our own incarceration. Are we not?




All Best,
WB

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[sapience8x]

It's good to recognize this now. I have no regrets but med school is a beast and it does take alost of stamina and motivation. i love medicine and that's what keeps me going and in the end is what will matter is being passionate about the field that i go into. i'm going to work to balance that and my family but it's going to be hard and i am going to have to push to do both. but if you know now that it is not for you,that is great before you sepnd alot of time and money and feel "stuck". i definitely understandand appreciate where you are coming from. Good luck with your future endeavors!

 

[Raven Feather]

Well it has been a fun 4 weeks. I really have no point to this thread except to encourage others to follow their dream. It is not for me.

Having spent approx. 30-40 hours over the past weeks I've decided that I just don't have the stamina to endure and time, energy and expense of additional schooling, pre-reqs. MCAT prep, applications, ECs, and all the other necessary items to seek the slight possiblity that I might have an interview. My initial interest began when I was 18 as a bright eyed and bushy tailed youngster. I made a 4.0 my first 2 semesters and then failed to have the confidence to move into the heavy sciences as required by my major. I moved on to another interest.

A few months ago I was inspired by my partner's brother who had returned to college at 30 to complete the pre-reqs. then earned a seat at med school.
I am 29 and married and feel that the extra time and energy could be devoted to my wife and our future family.

To thine own self be true. I don't have the drive. I hear all this talk about aspiring to help people. I think my journey to seek admission to med school is more of sort of self-esteem objective rather that to truly accomplish something noble. Maybe I'm a little jaded, bitter or resentful but most of all I'm angry at myself for losing confidence during college when I was younger. I don't my battleground should include MCAT, GPA and LORs. My grandfather, now retired, was genuine and devoted to medicine. His accomplishments read on and on and he made a difference. I don't want to begin this career at 30.

And it doesn't stop once you get you the thick envelope in the mail. The stress only begins, then residency, then practice.

I want to be remembered by my family, by my children and most importantly by my wife. I don't want to be paged at 3a.m. or miss my kids soccer game for someone else. I just realized this. I was inspired by the potential accomplishment and the image of medicine and not medicine itself.

I seek comfort in Ayn Rand's Anthem, the last sentence of the book. "What could of been.."

I really have to get on with my life so I wish all non-trads the best. I hope you don't leave your family, friends and spouse behind in the process. This pre-med stuff is a serious game and a game that you can win. I look forward to long walks in the woods, NCAA basketball, camping out at the lake house, trips to Europe, skiing in Vail not Organic Chemistry, volunteering, shadowing docs, and trying to find someone to help me get published. It goes without saying these are the necessary sacrifices.

Please don't let my remarks misguide you. This is simply not the career for me. Good luck and I hope you have a happy life in medicine.

One of the best guys I've read from is LSUwannabe. Check out his his threads under the research bar.

All Best,
WB

You make a valid point. I have a family and am hopeful to go into Emergency Medicine, among other things---shift work, NO CALL.

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

trips to europe? i guess if i could afford that (or say, oh health insurance for my kids...) maybe i'd do something easier too. motherhood has taught me the hardest things in life can be the best and most essential.

 

[firebird69guy]

Good luck!! Follow your heart..

 

[sunnyjohn]

Great post.

Good Luck.

 

[powerbooki]

'I think my journey to seek admission to med school is more of sort of self-esteem objective rather that to truly accomplish something noble'

When you truly recognize yourself, you win.

 

[MDhopeful023]

You know there is a part of me that says, "keep going... come on... I know you can do it..." but then again I'm a stranger and reading your post makes me quite aware that you have made up your mind to stop...

I'm a non-traditional as well... I guess a young one compared to yourself... 24 years old and like you I dream of having a family... but you know priorities are priorities... But enough of my blabbing...... I wish you luck on all your endeavors!!

 

[CoffeeFreak]

So I was standing in B&N sipping on an overpriced coffee a row of biographies books caught my eye. I perused some of the names that are all too common to us. Lincoln, Roosevelt, John Adams, FDR, Lance Armstrong, Jimmy Carter, Malcolm X, MLK, Einstein, Edison, among others. I flipped through a few chapters most notably their earlier progresses in their respective careers. The common theme was hardship and challenge.

Everyone who has accomplished anything has had to overcome a stumbling block at some point be it early or late in life. Albeit academics, loss of loved one, disease, disability, peer, diapproval, stress. These are among only a few that come to mind.

So why am I continually drawn to medicine? Is it a fear of failure that prevents my prgoress? Anyone else torn in two directions? Am I over analyzing here?

 

[1Path]

Albeit academics, loss of loved one, disease, disability, peer, diapproval, stress. These are among only a few that come to mind.

I've dealt with EVERYTHING on that list except disability, plus a few others and I'm a strong believer that things happen in due time. I believe sooner or later if you keep being drawn to medicine you'll eventually take the plunge. That's why I didn't worry much when I had to pass up an MD/PhD seat in med school 5 years ago. I just figured sooner or later the "bad" time would become a "better" time and now 5 years later, that "better" time is here.

 

[blee]

So I was standing in B&N sipping on an overpriced coffee a row of biographies books caught my eye. I perused some of the names that are all too common to us. Lincoln, Roosevelt, John Adams, FDR, Lance Armstrong, Jimmy Carter, Malcolm X, MLK, Einstein, Edison, among others. I flipped through a few chapters most notably their earlier progresses in their respective careers. The common theme was hardship and challenge.

Everyone who has accomplished anything has had to overcome a stumbling block at some point be it early or late in life. Albeit academics, loss of loved one, disease, disability, peer, diapproval, stress. These are among only a few that come to mind.

So why am I continually drawn to medicine? Is it a fear of failure that prevents my prgoress? Anyone else torn in two directions? Am I over analyzing here?

I never know how to reply to your posts. Every time, you seem to be simultaneously expository and inquisitive. Well, this time I can give you an answer.

I'd like to say that i was just putting things in order while I was working, but the truth is that it took five years for me to quit my job and pursue my dreams because I was afraid to jump ship. There's a lot of risk and a lot of sacrifice involved, and I couldn't bear the thought of failing and having all of that missed opportunity go to waste. But I did it, and now my only regret is that it took so damn long. I'm not old, but I could've and should've been much younger when I finally wrote my two-week notice.

I won't deny the validity of your first post in this thread. This isn't the right choice for everyone. It was the right choice for me, though, and I wasn't sure of it until I'd already made it.

 

[metalkaren]

Great post, Blee. Thanks.

I never know how to reply to your posts. Every time, you seem to be simultaneously expository and inquisitive. Well, this time I can give you an answer.

I'd like to say that i was just putting things in order while I was working, but the truth is that it took five years for me to quit my job and pursue my dreams because I was afraid to jump ship. There's a lot of risk and a lot of sacrifice involved, and I couldn't bear the thought of failing and having all of that missed opportunity go to waste. But I did it, and now my only regret is that it took so damn long. I'm not old, but I could've and should've been much younger when I finally wrote my two-week notice.

I won't deny the validity of your first post in this thread. This isn't the right choice for everyone. It was the right choice for me, though, and I wasn't sure of it until I'd already made it.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Hey

Takes a strong individual to make hard decisions. Noone would question your motives for deciding not to follow medicine.

In fact, I have many physician friends since i work with them so much. I can only count 2 out of 10 i can think of when I asked them "would you do it all again?" that answered yes.

What does that mean? Well, to me it dosen't mean anything. Everyjob is filled with people who say that, what you do is only as fun and fulfilling as you make it. In fact, medicine itself is very self directed on a national scale, change comes with hard work and i think those who go on as non trads already prove they can overcome and do the work.

Good luck all!

 

[AusMeds]

So why am I continually drawn to medicine? Is it a fear of failure that prevents my prgoress? Anyone else torn in two directions? Am I over analyzing here?

Your second post validates my impression from reading your first - your hat shouldn't be on the hook just yet! There is nothing wrong AT ALL with not pursuing medicine - if it's the right decision for you. At the same time, if it was the right decision for you, should you really need to take comfort from Ann Rand??? If you don't pursue your decision-making further, I believe you'll be sewing seeds of regret that will come back to haunt you years later.

It may take many hours, days, months of soul searching, but you truly need to try and understand if medicine is what you honestly desire - and if medicine was never right for you (not now and not back in undergrad when you first contemplated medicine), then you can confidently hang up your hat and never look back.

Only once you have figured this out, will you truly be at peace with your decision one way or the other - and if the answer is not to pursue medicine - then you won't have regrets, you won't need Ann Rand and you won't need to use your wife and family as rationalization. I don't mean to suggest that your family shouldn't be taken into consideration - you need to make this decision together and be committed to it together - but lots of people older than you finish med school with wife and children by their side - so it can be done!

And something else to consider - if reality is that today you give up your dream for your wife and family only to have the regret come back to haunt you 15 years down the road when you're 45 with no runway left to pursue medicine and mid-life crisis knocking on the door - what impact will this have on your family?

All of us have moments where we consider throwing in the towel and that's OK since changing careers, giving up an income, and the fear of failure are all very scary!! I honestly believe that it is fear that is influencing your thoughts and that you still have a lot of soul searching ahead of you. The good news is that you're still young with lots of runway left to figure things out. I started med school in my late 30's with a family and so many in our class are married, "married with children" or getting married - so it REALLY can be done. You will have to give up the trips to Europe and Vail though - at least for the next 10 years!!

Good luck!

 

[Lebesgue]

So I was standing in B&N sipping on an overpriced coffee a row of biographies books caught my eye. I perused some of the names that are all too common to us. Lincoln, Roosevelt, John Adams, FDR, Lance Armstrong, Jimmy Carter, Malcolm X, MLK, Einstein, Edison, among others. I flipped through a few chapters most notably their earlier progresses in their respective careers. The common theme was hardship and challenge.

Everyone who has accomplished anything has had to overcome a stumbling block at some point be it early or late in life. Albeit academics, loss of loved one, disease, disability, peer, diapproval, stress. These are among only a few that come to mind.

So why am I continually drawn to medicine? Is it a fear of failure that prevents my prgoress? Anyone else torn in two directions? Am I over analyzing here?

Wow, people sure do like to write. I feel like I'm in a Hallmark store. I think you need to put down the coffee, or not... and get cracking on getting into med school.

I'm 34, married, with a little one, and have no regrets about med school. I have plenty of time to study, spend time with the family, and workout. Perception is not always reality. After residency you can build a life you want. Most people that work very intense hours, either love it, or the money. There are plenty of people that don't work as much.

The only thing you get from sitting on the fence is spinters in your butt. (I just made that up... ha,ha,ha)

Good luck with applications...

 

[NontradICUdoc]

I am 31 years old, married, and two children. Since my eldest was born in 2001 I have been in school getting my masters degree. My UG days were not something I was proud of and I had come to the conclusion that I was never going to fullfill my dream and decided to live my life.

Long story short, I have applied. I came to the decision to at least try on a trip with my wife after a falling out with my brother.

We ALL need to find out path. Maybe for you this is either not it, or it is not the time. I am a firm believer that things happen for a reason. I was not prepared for medical school after college. I did not know how to study and I certainly would not have what it takes. But I believe that now I do.

If you feel that this is not the time for you, so be it. You must do what makes YOU happy.

Good Luck and God Speed

 

[Febrifuge]

It takes guts to be totally honest with oneself about how long and how hard that road ahead might be. But that's just the start -- it takes guts to go down the road anyway (mad props to my pre-med classmates!). It also takes guts to say something that can be unpopular or challenging to some people, and announce that you're not doing it.

I still feel like I've been drafted; I can't envision a life for myself that I'd be satisfied with that doesn't involve practicing medicine. But if I came to the conclusions you seem to have, I hope I'd have the self-awareness to know I should hang it up, and the confidence to do it, regardless of people's opinions. Rock on.

 

[kimt2234]

Wow! I have been toiling with this one for awhile two and I am still not sure what to do. Again, for me, it all comes down to going threw all this crap just to apply and then all the crap to get an MD and then to get threw residency and end up failing or worse, hating it.

My issue I toil with is can one be a doctor and not work 80 hours per week every week? I still need to find an answer to this one. I want to be a doctor, but it's the rest of your life being committed only to your job. What about spouse, and children, and hobbies? I mean I am not against the effort that needs to be put in to become a doctor. My current uncertainty is stemming from rebelling against what life is like AFTER becoming a doctor. I don't know about anyone else, but as much as I want to be adoctor, I have just as many issues with my life being consumed 80% by my carrer. No matter how much I loved it or was good at it, I am other things to other people like a wife and that deserves just as much attention. I dunno. I hate pondering.

FEEDBACK! ANYONE!

 

[blee]

I, too, was and am worried about balancing my career and my family. Here's what I decided: First of all, I am not the kind of person who is happy just to tread the water in any career. I was in a line of work where promotions come with extra responsibilities, which inevitably leads to longer hours and even working from home after the kids are asleep (or maybe even before). Most career paths go this way unless you're content to stay in one place and do the same thing forever. I know plenty of people who don't mind doing just that, but I'm not one of them.

In addition, I'm not the kind of person who can separate his job from the rest of his life. Even with a 40-hour work week, time spent commuting and time spent during lunch all add up to at least half of a full day spent on work-related activities. If I'm not happy at work, I just can't leave it at the office and come home with the energy to be a great husband and father. I tried doing this for a while and failed miserably. (No kids yet, but still)

As a result, my notion of a "family-friendly career" has totally changed. Working 40 hours a week at a job I hated was not family friendly. Working 80 hard hours at a job I love might cut into raw family time, but if I can come home energized and excited, those hours are going to be worth so much more. I'm giong to be working long hours for many years, no matter which career I choose; I might as well pick one I like, even if it requires some sacrifice up front.

That said, there are plenty of specialties with fewer hours, and if you want ultimate control over your schedule, you can always get it. You might end up making less money, but that would be a decision you'd have to make at some point. In the end, though, not everyone is cut out to make these choices and jump through these hoops.

I'd be lying if I said that I absolutely knew I could do it when I started, and I'd still be lying if I said that I know I can do it now. I don't. I do know, however, that this is the career that I've really wanted, and that I could never be happy with myself if I didn't pursue my dreams. If I end up falling on my face somewhere along the way, I'll regroup and change course; to me, though, that's much better than never trying in the first place.

 

[Caboose]

I was sitting here thinking that we think too much… what do you think? Medicine is hell to get into. It’s like a flea on a Golden Retriever’s butt. You can scratch the itch of uncertainty, but don’t over do it and start chasing your tail. Close your eyes, Hallmark continues, (that’s very funny btw).

She sat on the red blanket that had been laid out on the cool grassy hill. Small furry creatures giggled past her, but they have no relevance to the story. In front of her lay her top choices. She looked at each one like a curious child into an aquarium. She could be a teacher, giving all she had to guide hundreds of brilliant people into their lives. She could go into research, discovering the science that would contribute baby steps with her colleagues with the full knowledge that her mind could eventually change textbooks. Perhaps she could do something simpler, not making her career weigh so much. All sorts of cards, each with the description of what a day in the shoes of that profession would be like lay in front of her, but did not show the effort to get there, the social status or the money factors involved. She simply needed to pick up the glossy picture and hold onto it. Anything she chose could involve beer in her life, so she was not worried.

Picking medicine, her brow furrowed as the card grew into a book. It held the choices in medicine she would have to make. The lives of other people flashed through each page. There was a woman in the ER making quick, solid decisions. A neurologist sat in his office for 3.25min looking at a picture of his recent family vacation. A family practitioner chatted casually with old Mrs. Galloski about the town Christmas event she was organizing, trying to convince her that making Jesus doilies may not be the best activity.

I love the idea of medicine because it is constantly changing, there is always something more to learn, I’ll be able to answer people’s questions to improve their health telling them to quit eating McDonalds, go to high schools and colleges to teach and, honestly, I need to be needed. I think that because the bar is so high, people just stare at it, afraid of the pain and disappointed faces if he/she should fail. Gee whiz, the razor sharp stakes at the bottom won't hurt that bad - probably won't even puncture any organs.

I’m going to work in a small town most likely, not making much, but having the time to know my patients. If I had a family, I would not be able to go to medical school because I’m not the quickest learner – this is different for everyone. Anyway, if I thought it was too draining at any point, I am not sentenced to it for the rest of my life… just as long as I get a job that can pay my school loans.


Oh that's disgusting - you've dribbled aqueous humor from your cornea all over the keyboard.

I think perception is reality, it's just that most of us agree on what we see.

I'm hungry.
Caboose.

 

[Presadog]

Good luck to you. It seems you have your head on straight.

 

[AusMeds]

My issue I toil with is can one be a doctor and not work 80 hours per week every week? I still need to find an answer to this one. I want to be a doctor, but it's the rest of your life being committed only to your job. What about spouse, and children, and hobbies?

My personal view is that medicine and a great family life don't have to be mutually exclusive. One of the great things about medicine is that there are so many different specialties each with their own unique lifestyle characteristics that anyone should be able to design any lifestyle that they want. If you want 9 to 5, become a dermatologist, opthamologist or a pathologist. If you want well defined barriers between work life and family life, become an ER doc where you work your shift then pass your patients off to the next doc and go home. If you want to be an entrepreneur, then start your own practice. Etc.

So that's my hypothesis, and armed with a coffee and google - I just returned from a brief tour of the web to see what evidence is out there to support my forever optimistic outlook! And surprisingly, here's what I found ...

A crude measure of family "success" (or rather failure) could be estimated by divorce rates. Not exactly Hallmark happiness - but, at least they're numbers! The national US "likelihood of a new marriage ending in divorce" is 43% (Source: US Census). I then discovered a study done by John Hopkins University on divorce rates within the medical profession - and the divorce rate they found across all specialties is 32% with psychiatrists being the most likely to divorce at a 50% rate, surgeons at 33%, internists at 24%, and pediatricians and pathologists at 22%. Now certainly, looking at divorce rates says nothing about marriage quality and happiness - but the fact that divorce rates are not higher in medical families must imply that the practice of medicine (psychiatry excluded) does not predispose a doctor to family failure.

Now, to explore the family quality topic a little, I couldn't find any statistical evidence in my brief search, but did stumble across a few experiences posted by doctors on how they have managed to practice family-friendly medicine. Here's a few of their experiences:

"I really struggled to find something that I could get by with. So, I wound up in urgent care. It's a great job in terms of hours and lifestyle. Extremely low stress and I work "full time" which is 36 hrs per week (three 12-hour days), about half of what I was working before and less than I'd have worked doing part-time at my other job. No call, no nights, no rounds, only one weekend a month. My family is happy and healthy and functioning. We are expecting our third child in January, something that would never have happened in my previous career path."

"I started a group practice 3+ years ago in Columbus, Ohio, with three internists. We are very successful, and we average 3 days a week each. We don't make $200,000 a year, of course. Our practices are full - we turn away new patients daily."

"Jobsharing offers another approach to balancing family life and medical practice. One member found an ideal jobshare partner, her husband! She works 3 days a week and he works 2 and they split Sundays. They were able to raise their second child at home since someone was always there for him, and are able to pursue interests other than medicine in their time off. They say that jobsharing has really enhanced their lives in every way."

So there you have it! Not exactly the quality of research that will get me published, but my coffee's finished and it's time to return to the books. Anyway, I won't go to the extreme and say "if you want a happy family life become a doctor", but one shouldn't necessarily believe that following their dream will jeapordize their family. You simply have to design a lifestyle (along the spectrum of 3 days per week to 100 hours per week) that's right for you and develop good coping skills with your partner so that you both can get through the really stressful times.

 

[Lebesgue]

You guys win! I can't read anything over 2 big paragraphs or 3 small after doing my surgery rotation if I'm not being tested on it, or if it's not from an old friend. ICU patient progress notes are shorter than these posts, even in really sick patients.

Some thoughts... Med school did not change who I was, or my wife and I's 8 year relationship, or my ability to dedicate time to the things that matter to me, i.e my son. There is so much opportunity that you can find something you like to do in medicine, and 4 years will be enough time to figure it out. There are no perfect jobs, but being a doc will be a good one.

If you don't want to help people medically, find something else, but if it interests you, go for it. You'll never "what if" the whole process correctly, and you'll find out it's different when you get there.

I like it.

 

[whatsthegoodwor]

So that's my hypothesis, and armed with a coffee and google - I just returned from a brief tour of the web to see what evidence is out there to support my forever optimistic outlook! And surprisingly, here's what I found ...

A crude measure of family "success" (or rather failure) could be estimated by divorce rates. Not exactly Hallmark happiness - but, at least they're numbers! The national US "likelihood of a new marriage ending in divorce" is 43% (Source: US Census). I then discovered a study done by John Hopkins University on divorce rates within the medical profession - and the divorce rate they found across all specialties is 32% with psychiatrists being the most likely to divorce at a 50% rate, surgeons at 33%, internists at 24%, and pediatricians and pathologists at 22%. Now certainly, looking at divorce rates says nothing about marriage quality and happiness - but the fact that divorce rates are not higher in medical families must imply that the practice of medicine (psychiatry excluded) does not predispose a doctor to family failure.

Everyone knows that 83% of statistics are made up.
(rimshot)
But seriously, these numbers mean nothing - maybe doctors are marrying as older, more mature people and have more secure finances. Take away those two things, and you have the same problems as everyone else. Drug abuse, infidelity, etc. Or maybe doctors are at work so often that they can't catch their wife or husband with their boy/girlfriend! Here's a chart I made up:

                            |
                            |
likelyhood of               |        _______
catching                    |      /            \
cheating spouse             |    /               \
                            |  /                  \ 
                            |/_____________\_______

                                 time spent away from home

 

[Caboose]

Everyone knows that 83% of statistics are made up.
(rimshot)
But seriously, these numbers mean nothing - maybe doctors are marrying as older, more mature people and have more secure finances. Take away those two things, and you have the same problems as everyone else. Drug abuse, infidelity, etc. Or maybe doctors are at work so often that they can't catch their wife or husband with their boy/girlfriend! Here's a chart I made up:

                            |
                            |
likelyhood of               |        _______
catching                    |      /            \
cheating spouse             |    /               \
                            |  /                  \ 
                            |/_____________\_______

                                 time spent away from home

Wait a minute!! What you're saying is, if I can find someone to commit to, <8-ball says "ask again later">, all I have to do is be at the right side of the graph? That means I can be a workoholic, have sex in the broom closet over lunch with my spouse and never be the wiser about what's happening at home? Everyone's happy!
Rad. Medicine is totally where it's at.

Ausmeds - you too are very...very, rad. Way to be.

/
/
/
Caboose.

 

[AusMeds]

Statistics seldom lie (0.05) - just the politicians who try to use them (0.95)

In actuality, infidelity is rarely the root cause of divorce, but rather a symptom of a failed marriage. So, whether the infidelity is detected or not is of lessor consequence - the marriage has failed and it will likely only be a matter of time before one party or the other seeks divorce. Either the adulterer will file once they find the companionship they are seeking somewhere else, or the adulter's spouse will file if they discover the infidelity.

At any rate, I still hold that there is an observed difference in divorce rates between doctors and the wider population. I don't mean at all to suggest that becoming a doctor is a road to marital bliss. However, irrespective of the age someone marries, if the ongoing practice of medicine was incompatible with family life and was a significant risk factor for family failure, then one would reasonably expect to see very different divorce rates amongst doctors (psychiatry excepted which does in fact appear to be a risk factor for a failed marriage - good thing I don't want to be a psychiatrist!!).

 

[Febrifuge]

My current uncertainty is stemming from rebelling against what life is like AFTER becoming a doctor. I don't know about anyone else, but as much as I want to be adoctor, I have just as many issues with my life being consumed 80% by my carrer. No matter how much I loved it or was good at it, I am other things to other people like a wife and that deserves just as much attention. I dunno. I hate pondering.

FEEDBACK! ANYONE!

Gimme a P! Gimme an A!

No, really, gimme an acceptance to a PA school. A few more classes, and I'm totally ready to go. For some of us, that's just where the dilemma works out, after a long and thoughtful process. Maximal opportunity to practice medicine, minus some stuff I don't care about anyway; minimal load of horse-puckey to go through on the way. It should be considered by more pre-meds than seem to consider it, I think.

 

[billydoc]

I'm with you on this one 100%,Ferbifuge. Although, as an RN I'm considering NP, but also looking at PA as a very, very viable option. You won't have the status and the recognition that MD/DO would get, but you'll be doing things that matter. Some would say you won't get the big $$$ like docs do...that part in today's healthcare is very quastionable at best. Unless you are in some super competetive field, don't sweat the small stuff. You'll be able to practice medicine as a mid-level in some of the fields that you could only dream getting into as a doc.

To the OP. I'm in the same boat, though I've already tried the med school in the Carib. Did two semesters, and realized...What the heck am I getting myself into at 35, having a wife and a child.You've expressed so precise, what I've been struggling with, and wanted to say for so long. It takes guts to do that, and I thank you for that

Gimme a P! Gimme an A!

No, really, gimme an acceptance to a PA school. A few more classes, and I'm totally ready to go. For some of us, that's just where the dilemma works out, after a long and thoughtful process. Maximal opportunity to practice medicine, minus some stuff I don't care about anyway; minimal load of horse-puckey to go through on the way. It should be considered by more pre-meds than seem to consider it, I think.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Febrifuge & BillyDoc

Hey Guys. I am 31 been an RN for 10 years and am in a similar situation. I am not, however even remotely considering NP or PA. Why? It has everything to do with the reasons why I want to be a physician and nothing to do with money.

Im in a job (my wife and i are RN's) where we both make 70K each yearly. We have all the things we wanted (we dont have kids which makes it MUCH easier for me than you fellows). However, Im not fulfilled. As much as I learn, as far as i go in my personal education, Even if I do PA or NP school, I will always be exactly that, "Just a Nurse, Just a PA, Just an NP".

At the end of the day I am a true believer in exactly 2 things.

1) You dont know what you dont know. Ergo, until you become a physician you can never understand what it is to be one, or what it takes to be one.

and

2) There are really 2 types of people, A types and everyone else.

As a self identified A type I am not happy as the follower. As a PA or NP you are still, regardless of how independant you might appear, a follower.

Currently as a flight RN i have total autonomous practice with extremely sick patients in my care. However, guess who I bring them to? The Physician, and rightly so. Regardless of how many MD/DO's you might know who appear incompetent, the reality is they are in the extreme minority. At the end of the day, as a mid level you will never be solely responsible for that sick patient and the course of treatment. This is not the role of mid level practitioners. That being the case, I dont see the challenge for me in that role.

Now, that all being said, many people have family issues (as i have seen posted here) which play a huge role in decision making. Hey, family comes first. I am lucky that in my case this isnt an issue.

On the other hand, will you be happy with the role your settling for? I was 95% convinced to be a CRNA when i finally realized that I would be bored in that role. I looked into PA/NP and saw a similar outcome. The overwhelming majority of these jobs are doing the scut work for physician groups (rounding, taking call) and working in urgent care areas. Though this may very well be a perfect fit for some I recognized that this was not what I wanted.

Everyone has to make the decision for themselves. What I see alot, and what i fell prey to myself for a time, is people convincing themselves they will be happy in a mid level role. If you have to come up with excuses to NOT be a physician and to BE a mid level, are you choosing it for the right reasons?

In anycase, good luck to everyone. There isnt a bad choice, there is only the choice that is right for you based on your situation. Regardless of the role you choose you must be sure you will be happy with it else you might find yourself in another 3-5 years as a pre med once again!

 

[dasta]

Gimme a P! Gimme an A!

No, really, gimme an acceptance to a PA school. . . . Maximal opportunity to practice medicine . . . minimal load of horse-puckey to go through on the way. It should be considered by more pre-meds than seem to consider it, I think.

I could not agree more although I have a few reservations. I, too, am considering PA/NP although I would prefer MD or DO. For the type of work that I want to do, there are limitations to being a mid-level. As a PA I would not be able to do everything I want to, nor have the credentials that I need. One of the international NGOs that I want to work for has told me that they only take MD or DO , hence the dilemma. But I'm nearing my mid-40s and premed, and won't be able to even start med school for 4 more years. But, if I couldn't do MD or DO, I would consider being a PA even though I really would not be able to practice the kind of healthcare that I want to be doing.

 

[blee]

These are all viable options. As far as respect, I work with MDs, RNs, and PAs daily, and I can't say that I give any one of them less respect than the others. All of them are highly trained and quite good at their jobs. They also get somewhat more patient contact, and I would especially say that the nurses I work with (cancer center) represent the most human and sincere side of modern medicine. The PAs are often more hands-on than the physicians, and they tend to lead more structured and predictable lives. They're all very intelligent, compassionate people. If I wanted to be a PA or a nurse, I wouldn't hesitate to apply for those schools.

Here is where the danger lies. In making the choice to pursue any of these degrees, one has to beware of saying that being a nurse or being a PA is "good enough." My nurse colleagues all tell me that the best people in their field are the ones who honestly, truly want to be nurses. The ones who do it because they wouldn't or couldn't go through med school generally turn out to be less content with their jobs. When I speak with the better PAs, they all give me very specific reasions why they chose PA school over medical school. Almost none of them put the length of education at the top of their lists.

I know people who are alright with settling for "second best," but I know I'm not one of them. If you really have your heart set on being a doctor, then being a nurse or PA may frustrate you. Conversely, if your career goals are really in line with being a nurse or PA, then going through med school and being a doctor might frustrate you to no end.

There are two ways to fall short of your dreams. You can set your sights on the goal, and then fail to make it; or you can set the bar shorter and settle for "next best." I've done the latter, and it sucks. It took a lot of work to come to grips with what I really wanted to do with my life, and then to set the framework to make it happen. All of the sacrifice and lost time for me to become a doctor wouldn't even compare to the frustrations of training for a job that I never really wanted in the first place.

 

[kimt2234]

Here , here! I literally change my mind from PA to MD everday. My one and only hesitation to med school is that I am afraid once I get into my mid-30's (I just turned 25) I will not want the long hours of a physician because that is around the time my husband and I want to start a family. In addition, I want to be able to devote necessary time to my husband and our marriage. How does one accomplish this? And, it does not set well with me to choose a PA path if in every other aspect except the hours I want to be a physician.

No matter what, the higher degree you have, the more opitons of what you can do are present. That has always been my goal from day one was to become as educated as I could in whatever field I chose in an effort to leave myself available to the most opportunities as my life and interests change as I age.

Could anyone give feedback on what the hell women who want to become physician's but eventually want to have a child or two are to do? devoting time to life outside of medicine is where I am a little hesitant to pursue med school. Anyone out there who can ease my worries and hesitations?

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Kim

As someone who works with physicians everyday let me tell you this. There are ALOT o female physicians who have children. Do they have as much time as typical moms with their kids? That totally depends on the specialty they have chosen. It is clear to me that you will never be happy as a PA based on what you have said here.

If you decide to compromise what you really want where will you be when your kids are teens and no longer "need" Mom? Unhappy and resentful. Dont give up on your dream, work it out so that you can have both. Many have done it successfully im sure you can too.

 

[kimt2234]

Kim

As someone who works with physicians everyday let me tell you this. There are ALOT o female physicians who have children. Do they have as much time as typical moms with their kids? That totally depends on the specialty they have chosen. It is clear to me that you will never be happy as a PA based on what you have said here.

If you decide to compromise what you really want where will you be when your kids are teens and no longer "need" Mom? Unhappy and resentful. Dont give up on your dream, work it out so that you can have both. Many have done it successfully im sure you can too.

Thanks for the great feedback. I needed that! I have heard a lot about it all depends on the specialty. How do you choose a specialty? Or better yet, how can I get info on which specilaties will fit what I am looking for?

 

[72423]

All of us have moments where we consider throwing in the towel and that's OK since changing careers, giving up an income, and the fear of failure are all very scary!!

This was the best thing I've heard in a long time.

I feel really confident about the pathway I've chosen, and know I can do it (the whole go-back-to-school-for-a-new-career-as-a-doc-thing), and know it's going to be worth it, and know it will be worth the 10-year sacrifice that I and my family are making. That is, I know it most of the time. And then there are times when I think, "What am I thinking? I can't possibly do this, can I?"
Anyway, I'm really glad to hear that at least somebody else thinks it's a scary thing--thanks for saying so!

And by the way,

...when you're 45 with no runway left to pursue medicine...

easy on the concept that being 45 leaves one with no runway left to pursue medicine--I'll be 45 when I start med school next year !

Oh, and by the way, I have two female doc friends who practice 3&1/2 and 4&1/2 8 hour days (respectively), and are very happy with the balance they've found in their lives. It can be done!

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Thanks for the great feedback. I needed that! I have heard a lot about it all depends on the specialty. How do you choose a specialty? Or better yet, how can I get info on which specilaties will fit what I am looking for?

Your best bet is to talk to female physicians who have families. They can direct you better than anyone here.

 

[billydoc]

Hey Mike!
Thanks for your repply. Well, my situation is probably not that unique from others, but it's likely to affect the whole "to be or not to be", or better yet "the doc or not the doc" thing. I've been having some health problems, which get way worse under prolonged periods of stress, which I'm sure you realize, is impossible to avoid. Unlike many ppl on this forum, I had already tried the med school albeit in the Carib. But ROSS is very well known in the U.S, and gave me the real deal feeling. I could argue that had I not taken the short cut, and tried to get into US MD/DO schools things could have been different now. But history has no respect for could've, and should've. I realized that living on the hellhole island of Dominica, even for 16 months without my wife and daughter proved to be too much to handle for me. Dragging them along with me was not an option for us. Also my physical limitations make me wonder what if I stuck it out and aced the school, but how am I going to handle residency? I know if I don't sleep for just a couple of nights, I feel like crap, and eventually become quite disfunctional. And believe me friend, I'm not a "premodonna". I've done my fare share of butt kicking in this life. But these are very logit concerns. I'll never know for sure before I really get there. But what if I did the school, and couldn't do the residency? $200,000 is a bit too expensive hobby for me. So I haven't given up on it just yet, but PA/NP is the next best thing in my situation. Many docs also wind up doing things, and/or specialties they didn't picture themselves before the harsh reality of being in debt up to their ears. Everything really depends on the set up you're in. You could be NP/PA, and "hire" a doc for CYA to run the practice on win-win basis. All depends on how you look at it. The turf wars don't just affect mid-levels, and allied health professionals. A lot of doc to a doc back-stabbing exist. And you can't get out of the specialty you don't like without doing another residency, andpossibly fellowship. How many lives must one have ? Anyway, at 35, with family, and some real health issues dream along will not carry me for another 7-9 yrs. I just have to deal with reality.
Good Luck to all of you who dare do these things. May G-D be with you in every step of THE WAY.

Febrifuge & BillyDoc

Hey Guys. I am 31 been an RN for 10 years and am in a similar situation. I am not, however even remotely considering NP or PA. Why? It has everything to do with the reasons why I want to be a physician and nothing to do with money.

Im in a job (my wife and i are RN's) where we both make 70K each yearly. We have all the things we wanted (we dont have kids which makes it MUCH easier for me than you fellows). However, Im not fulfilled. As much as I learn, as far as i go in my personal education, Even if I do PA or NP school, I will always be exactly that, "Just a Nurse, Just a PA, Just an NP".

At the end of the day I am a true believer in exactly 2 things.

1) You dont know what you dont know. Ergo, until you become a physician you can never understand what it is to be one, or what it takes to be one.

and

2) There are really 2 types of people, A types and everyone else.

As a self identified A type I am not happy as the follower. As a PA or NP you are still, regardless of how independant you might appear, a follower.

Currently as a flight RN i have total autonomous practice with extremely sick patients in my care. However, guess who I bring them to? The Physician, and rightly so. Regardless of how many MD/DO's you might know who appear incompetent, the reality is they are in the extreme minority. At the end of the day, as a mid level you will never be solely responsible for that sick patient and the course of treatment. This is not the role of mid level practitioners. That being the case, I dont see the challenge for me in that role.

Now, that all being said, many people have family issues (as i have seen posted here) which play a huge role in decision making. Hey, family comes first. I am lucky that in my case this isnt an issue.

On the other hand, will you be happy with the role your settling for? I was 95% convinced to be a CRNA when i finally realized that I would be bored in that role. I looked into PA/NP and saw a similar outcome. The overwhelming majority of these jobs are doing the scut work for physician groups (rounding, taking call) and working in urgent care areas. Though this may very well be a perfect fit for some I recognized that this was not what I wanted.

Everyone has to make the decision for themselves. What I see alot, and what i fell prey to myself for a time, is people convincing themselves they will be happy in a mid level role. If you have to come up with excuses to NOT be a physician and to BE a mid level, are you choosing it for the right reasons?

In anycase, good luck to everyone. There isnt a bad choice, there is only the choice that is right for you based on your situation. Regardless of the role you choose you must be sure you will be happy with it else you might find yourself in another 3-5 years as a pre med once again!

 

[CoffeeFreak]

The feedback from these posts are interesting excercises in critical thinking. This post has morphed into a discussion on ambivalence which is a dire need here on the SDN ranch.

Whether you agree or disagree I believe that absolute truth is a rare beast and perspective is abundant. In other words one can make a good arguement for virtually anything decision. There are benefits and drawbacks to either choice. I.e. One can argue that it is sickening that wealthy people "waste" money on luxury cars, big houses, trips to Europe, etc while another's perspective is to encourage such behavior because it fuels the economy....blah..blah..blah.

My point is that pursuing a career change later in life has both benefits and drawbacks. If we put aside RFK dream speech for a moment and eliminate the emotional appeal it is simply weighing what is personally more important.

For my own personal situation Blee's reaction (earlier post) is accurate. If I am not satisfied with a career that requires only 30-40 hours per week then it will reflect on my family life in a negative fashion. In essense the time factor, if reasonable, is a moot point. Kudos to Blee

Another concern that I want to address.

Often I read or hear of people object to a career change with some sentiment that follows something along the lines of "..but if I return to school to spend a year or two doing pre-reqs and then med school and then residency I won't be able to "start" my new career for another 10 years.."
I hear this alot and it has been a major roadblock for myself. I too fell victim to this way of thinking and it has made me cringe. This attitude is one of incareration and more or less prison. "You've got to do ten years of prision before you can live." You won't be able to "start" until x years.....

My new attitude is to regard the pre-reqs, med school and residency as a positive learning experience. Despite the massive amount of classroom education it boils down to a year or two in pre-reqs, 2 year med school in the class, 2 years clinicals, 3+ years residency. Basically I have 3 years in the classroom. No so bad. It's not like I'll be busting rocks at Sing Sing.

Whether or not I go forward with an attempt for a career change or not (save accidents or diseases) I'm still going to turn 30,31,32,33.... I'll still be alive and living and most likely sitting around and keeping the books on rental properties. Why not? What are the reasons why not? For me the regret of no attempt is greater than the attempt.

So I will not remiss to include myself on a few ski trips with those snobby WASPy, bluebloods in VT. I won't cry when I'am not able to attend UK at the final four in 06, I doubt I'll give a crap when I can't play squash because I don't have the time.

As far as my being interested in medicine for the image of medicine and not medicine itself as I wrote earlier. That was the immaturity of 18 when I had all these romantic and idealist notions. At 29 I've been around the block once and learned a thing or two.

My final decision was based on typing a fake obituary that included a biographical account. When I saw it on paper I was confident in my final dicision to make an attempt at medicine. I remembered this as a HW assignment in high school. It only took me 14 years to finish it.

Anyhow my apologies for the rambling. I wanted to put some closure on the 1st post I made here.

Later

 

[AusMeds]

easy on the concept that being 45 leaves one with no runway left to pursue medicine

Just a second here ... let me put my glasses back on ... holly cr*p , you're right - that runway's a lot longer than I thought!! Sorry for that, and good on you for knowing what you want and making it happen

My new attitude is to regard the pre-reqs, med school and residency as a positive learning experience.

It was a nasty tumble, but way to go wrestling the courage to get back up on that horse. Your new attitude is right on! Sometimes, we tend to focus too much on the destination when it is the journey that's half the fun.

And if you ever decide that you really want to hang up your hat for good (i.e. with no regrets), then may I sugest you post your farewell in the "General Residency Issues" forum where everyone is stressed out from 100 hour weeks thinking "Way to go CoffeeFreak, why didn't I get out when I could?" Here in the non-trads pub, there's too many of us "Tony Robbins on steroids" types.

 

[Febrifuge]

Febrifuge & BillyDoc

Hey Guys. I am 31 been an RN for 10 years and am in a similar situation. I am not, however even remotely considering NP or PA. Why? It has everything to do with the reasons why I want to be a physician and nothing to do with money.

That's awesome. Honestly, no BS, I say good for you. At the same time, the reasons I've decided on PA also have nothing to do with money, and everything to do with how and why I want to practice medicine. So there's not so much of a divergence here as perhaps you seem to think (if I'm reading you right).

Im in a job (my wife and i are RN's) where we both make 70K each yearly. We have all the things we wanted (we dont have kids which makes it MUCH easier for me than you fellows). However, Im not fulfilled. As much as I learn, as far as i go in my personal education, Even if I do PA or NP school, I will always be exactly that, "Just a Nurse, Just a PA, Just an NP".

That's cool, and clearly you've done some hard thinking on the subject. Still, this idea of "just" a PA is not going to be the same for everyone. And I don't have kids; I just figure at some point in the next 8 or 10 years (which would be med school and residency years, assuming I got accepted according to my schedule) I might want to start a family.

At the end of the day I am a true believer in exactly 2 things.

1) You dont know what you dont know. Ergo, until you become a physician you can never understand what it is to be one, or what it takes to be one.
and
2) There are really 2 types of people, A types and everyone else.

As a self identified A type I am not happy as the follower. As a PA or NP you are still, regardless of how independant you might appear, a follower.

Well, again, no disrespect intended but that's a very Type A thing to say. I would counter by saying 1) even physicians sometimes don't have the ability to step back and recognize gaps in their own knowledge. That's part of why there's a culture in medicine of life-long learning, and consulting with people who are more expert. And an awareness that there's always someone more expert. PA's come up in that same culture, and contribute to it, so I hesitate to totally go along with the "follower" idea; there's nobody I've met or worked with that doesn't follow protocols or take orders from someone. In a sense, every single practitioner is a follower in some ways, and a leader in others. Unless you find a way to both run the hospital and practice in it, that'll be you too, my friend.

Of course you're right that a PA is not going to be the coach calling the plays, not going to be hiring and firing and setting policy, but a PA could well be the quarterback. There's such a range of practice settings and work arrangements, it's somewhat glib to suggest that PA's should be lumped in with first- and second-year residents or students, who present every patient to an attending or something like that.

Currently as a flight RN i have total autonomous practice with extremely sick patients in my care. However, guess who I bring them to? The Physician, and rightly so. Regardless of how many MD/DO's you might know who appear incompetent, the reality is they are in the extreme minority. At the end of the day, as a mid level you will never be solely responsible for that sick patient and the course of treatment. This is not the role of mid level practitioners. That being the case, I dont see the challenge for me in that role.

Well, if you've flown in to the Level I Trauma center I worked in, you may well have brought your patient to the care of a PA, who might be the PCP for that patient (supported by the staff docs just like the residents are). So again, it depends on where and when.

Now, that all being said, many people have family issues (as i have seen posted here) which play a huge role in decision making. Hey, family comes first. I am lucky that in my case this isnt an issue.

On the other hand, will you be happy with the role your settling for?

And here's the one bit that sort of prompted me to speak up. Seriously, no disrespect intended, but you're making a huge assumption when you say we're "settling" for the PA role. I've been over this and over this, and I can honestly say if I could have a magic guarantee I'd get into med school, I'd still rather do PA. It's a better fit for me, for lots of reasons, and the reduced time/ money/ hassle is just a small part of those reasons. Please, be aware that there are many good reasons to go PA, and very few of them involve "settling."

Hell, part of what I don't like about the changes physicians have seen in the job over the last 10 or 20 years can be called "settling." I don't want to settle for an HMO telling me I need to see 22 patients a day or I don't make money. I don't want to settle for a malpractice environment that could put my practice and my house at risk at any time. I don't want to settle for a situation where I (arguably) need to work harder than guys who did the same job a generation ago, yet receive (arguably) less credit for it.

...The overwhelming majority of these jobs are doing the scut work for physician groups (rounding, taking call) and working in urgent care areas. Though this may very well be a perfect fit for some I recognized that this was not what I wanted.

One man's scutwork is another's happy day full of procedures and patient counseling. It's a sybiotic relationship between docs and mid-levels, and when I've seen it work well everyone is valued, everyone is consulted, everyone is an equal part of the team and evaluated on their skills, no matter what the diplomas say.

Everyone has to make the decision for themselves. What I see alot, and what i fell prey to myself for a time, is people convincing themselves they will be happy in a mid level role. If you have to come up with excuses to NOT be a physician and to BE a mid level, are you choosing it for the right reasons?

I am with you 100% on this. I don't want my classmates and colleagues to be people who felt like PA would be 'easier' or 'more realistic' anymore than you want those folks working with you. I would actually take it even farther, and say that anyone pursuing PA who thinks they would go the MD/DO route if they knew they could should give it an honest shot, because if they don't, they'll always wonder. I got into it, I took a look from the inside out, and I reached some conclusions about where the best cost-to-benefit scenario lies, for me. Everybody should do their own version of that process.

But please throw me a bone, and acknowledge that plenty of people who are pre-med (and even in med school and residency) do some pretty similar convincing -- telling themselves that it's all going to be worth it, someday, in the end. I hope they're right, I really do. But what I know about the business of practicing medicine today led me to a different conclusion.

In anycase, good luck to everyone. There isnt a bad choice, there is only the choice that is right for you based on your situation. Regardless of the role you choose you must be sure you will be happy with it else you might find yourself in another 3-5 years as a pre med once again!

Well said. Likewise, you could find yourself on call, awake for 38 hours straight, staring down the barrel of another rough 5 or 10 years, and wondering why you didn't "just" become a PA. Anyway, good discussion, and best o' luck to everyone. We're all on one team, in the end.

 

[Febrifuge]

I could not agree more although I have a few reservations. I, too, am considering PA/NP although I would prefer MD or DO. For the type of work that I want to do, there are limitations to being a mid-level. As a PA I would not be able to do everything I want to, nor have the credentials that I need. One of the international NGOs that I want to work for has told me that they only take MD or DO , hence the dilemma. But I'm nearing my mid-40s and premed, and won't be able to even start med school for 4 more years. But, if I couldn't do MD or DO, I would consider being a PA even though I really would not be able to practice the kind of healthcare that I want to be doing.

You might find you share my thinking, but you should give a serious shot at MD/DO first. It seems like every med student I know has at least one fifty-something classmate. "Too old" is too slippery a concept to put a number on. When I was pre-med no one ever batted an eyelash at the fact that I would be a 42-year-old intern. If you're 44 now, and you'd be ready for the class starting Fall 2008, you'd still be a PGY-1 before age 50. Heck, I worked with someone in that same boat, in a competitive and prestigious residency. Age is really not that big a deal; it depends on the person.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Hey

Nicely stated and I totally agree. I hope i didnt sound like i was disparaging PA/NP's etc, that wasent my intent. I just want to remind people hat if you dont WANT to be a PA/NP then dont settle, it would (as you mentioned) be an insult to all the PA/NPs who WANT to be one

My only advice to people is not to choose something you dont really want. Pick your profession based on what you want and deal with the difficulty of attaining it later.

Have a good one

That's awesome. Honestly, no BS, I say good for you. At the same time, the reasons I've decided on PA also have nothing to do with money, and everything to do with how and why I want to practice medicine. So there's not so much of a divergence here as perhaps you seem to think (if I'm reading you right).

That's cool, and clearly you've done some hard thinking on the subject. Still, this idea of "just" a PA is not going to be the same for everyone. And I don't have kids; I just figure at some point in the next 8 or 10 years (which would be med school and residency years, assuming I got accepted according to my schedule) I might want to start a family.

Well, again, no disrespect intended but that's a very Type A thing to say. I would counter by saying 1) even physicians sometimes don't have the ability to step back and recognize gaps in their own knowledge. That's part of why there's a culture in medicine of life-long learning, and consulting with people who are more expert. And an awareness that there's always someone more expert. PA's come up in that same culture, and contribute to it, so I hesitate to totally go along with the "follower" idea; there's nobody I've met or worked with that doesn't follow protocols or take orders from someone. In a sense, every single practitioner is a follower in some ways, and a leader in others. Unless you find a way to both run the hospital and practice in it, that'll be you too, my friend.

Of course you're right that a PA is not going to be the coach calling the plays, not going to be hiring and firing and setting policy, but a PA could well be the quarterback. There's such a range of practice settings and work arrangements, it's somewhat glib to suggest that PA's should be lumped in with first- and second-year residents or students, who present every patient to an attending or something like that.

Well, if you've flown in to the Level I Trauma center I worked in, you may well have brought your patient to the care of a PA, who might be the PCP for that patient (supported by the staff docs just like the residents are). So again, it depends on where and when.

And here's the one bit that sort of prompted me to speak up. Seriously, no disrespect intended, but you're making a huge assumption when you say we're "settling" for the PA role. I've been over this and over this, and I can honestly say if I could have a magic guarantee I'd get into med school, I'd still rather do PA. It's a better fit for me, for lots of reasons, and the reduced time/ money/ hassle is just a small part of those reasons. Please, be aware that there are many good reasons to go PA, and very few of them involve "settling."

Hell, part of what I don't like about the changes physicians have seen in the job over the last 10 or 20 years can be called "settling." I don't want to settle for an HMO telling me I need to see 22 patients a day or I don't make money. I don't want to settle for a malpractice environment that could put my practice and my house at risk at any time. I don't want to settle for a situation where I (arguably) need to work harder than guys who did the same job a generation ago, yet receive (arguably) less credit for it.

One man's scutwork is another's happy day full of procedures and patient counseling. It's a sybiotic relationship between docs and mid-levels, and when I've seen it work well everyone is valued, everyone is consulted, everyone is an equal part of the team and evaluated on their skills, no matter what the diplomas say.

I am with you 100% on this. I don't want my classmates and colleagues to be people who felt like PA would be 'easier' or 'more realistic' anymore than you want those folks working with you. I would actually take it even farther, and say that anyone pursuing PA who thinks they would go the MD/DO route if they knew they could should give it an honest shot, because if they don't, they'll always wonder. I got into it, I took a look from the inside out, and I reached some conclusions about where the best cost-to-benefit scenario lies, for me. Everybody should do their own version of that process.

But please throw me a bone, and acknowledge that plenty of people who are pre-med (and even in med school and residency) do some pretty similar convincing -- telling themselves that it's all going to be worth it, someday, in the end. I hope they're right, I really do. But what I know about the business of practicing medicine today led me to a different conclusion.

Well said. Likewise, you could find yourself on call, awake for 38 hours straight, staring down the barrel of another rough 5 or 10 years, and wondering why you didn't "just" become a PA. Anyway, good discussion, and best o' luck to everyone. We're all on one team, in the end.

 

[Febrifuge]

My only advice to people is not to choose something you dont really want. Pick your profession based on what you want and deal with the difficulty of attaining it later.

Hey, no fair! You said that in two short, simple, clear lines, and I totally agree. If all of SDN was like that, we couldn't waste nearly as much time here.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

hehehe

sad eh?

 

[CibaoMD]

Hey guys..... Let's get a PAs perpspective here. Settling for one person is a high achievement for the other. It all depends how each person looks at it. When I became a PA, by no means I felt I was settling. To me, the ability to switch from specialty to specialty, and to be able to contribute to the team whenever needed, and not have to take all the responsiblity and hassle was great.

Its great until you work for a couple of years and realize that you really love that one thing you're doing. For me , its Pediatrics. Its hard being a PA taking new patients , newborns because most patients prefer pediatricians. I can't see patients in the hospital because I have no priveleges as a PA. One of my PA mentors challenged me and told me that PAs from private offices do see and accept new patients from hospitals. She suggested I tried to fight for that myself...and the profession..

Thats all and dandy..... but I want to walk in that hospital and take MY patient to our practice, and not do dirty work for my boss. I want to be able to give that patient my card. Sign them up on the HMO... Put my name on their insurance card.....and see them until he/she goes to college. In my short 5 yrs I find it superbly gratifying watching my patients grow and providing that continuity of care and see them get better after they were sick. I want to continue that ......but being the captain of the team. That is my personal choice.

Moral of the story is... do what must be done for yourself..... If your dream is to become a doctor and you don't have the courage to go for it.. be careful b/c getting into PA school is not a sure thing either... Speaking as some one who was on a PA admissions committee .....we frowned on people who were fakers.....trying to convince us that they really cared about becoming a PA. usually you could see thru the people who were not genuinely interested in becoming a PA..

That's my 3 cents..... Good luck to you all!!!