Harvard Undergraduate vs. Brown/Alpert 8-year

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2019premed

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Hello everyone. I recently got off of the wait list for Harvard (undergraduate) and am currently struggling to decide whether I should go there or to the school I am currently committed to, Brown with the PLME program (8-year guaranteed medical school). I am 99% certain I want to pursue medicine, hopefully in a specialized field. I would appreciate any feedback. Thank you very much in advance.
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2019premed said:
Hello everyone. I recently got off of the wait list for Harvard (undergraduate) and am currently struggling to decide whether I should go there or to the school I am currently committed to, Brown with the PLME program (8-year guaranteed medical school). I am 99% certain I want to pursue medicine, hopefully in a specialized field. I would appreciate any feedback. Thank you very much in advance.
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Brown Alpert without a doubt. You'll save yourself the stress that we're suffering right now as we apply for med schools 🙂

Also going to Harvard undergrad is in itself not a guarantee that you will go to med school afterwards. You'll be competing against a bunch of very well qualified kids for a limited number of A's and B's, which will hurt your GPA.

I also had a friend who went to Brown, and loved it. The attention they gave him there has enabled him to do a lot of... major stuff.
 
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Go the undergrad you would prefer to go to. Brown and Harvard have very different cultures, I can't imagine you are really torn between the two other than for the BS/MD program.
 
If you want to be a doctor this is a no-brainer.

No MCAT requirement on top of GPA requirements at the Brown guaranteed med school program that aren't as stringent as many other guaranteed programs and there really is no decision here.

Keep in mind if you do by chance decide you don't want to be a physician you are still attending a top notch school. This isn't exactly like comparing Harvard undergrad to Drexel undergrad(which has a guaranteed med program).
 
1. Dead set on medicine, you have no doubts whatsoever and God himself could not persuade you to sway from the path: (read: almost zero percent chance of any 18 year old being in this position) Go to Brown.


If not 1 then 2:

Go to the school whose environment and opportunities you find the most stimulating and exciting. Could be Harvard or Brown, you really can't go wrong although Harvard probably opens more doors than Brown especially in very elitist fields like business, banking or politics if you have an inkling that you may want to go into such a field as well or instead of medicine. You can always drop the guaranteed seat (I imagine) provided you change your mind at Brown and Harvard will open every door on the planet for you, it is virtually the only undergraduate pedigree where that is possible. congratulations on the success!
 
The main thing to think about is if your mind changes on medicine:

1.) You're still at Brown, which is one of the most elite schools in the country.

2.) You could be at Harvard, which is the most elite school in the country.

IF you're really 99% certain you want to do med, then PLME is the way to go. If you have any interest in other fields, I think its a toss up.
 
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Funny that you got off the waitlist recently, when everyone else was notified in May.
 
Banco said:
The main thing to think about is if your mind changes on medicine:

1.) You're still at Brown, which is one of the most elite schools in the country.

2.) You could be at Harvard, which is the most elite school in the country.

IF you're really 99% certain you want to do med, then PLME is the way to go. If you have any interest in other fields, I think its a toss up.
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Brown is fun. Harvard is painful imho.
 
QoL probably gonna be way better at Brown, they're a happy bunch of students.

Going Harvard would probably open a lot more MD options up though. You'll have to deal with the full pains of the premed process but could likely end up at a considerably stronger MD program than Alpert.
 
efle said:
QoL probably gonna be way better at Brown, they're a happy bunch of students.

Going Harvard would probably open a lot more MD options up though. You'll have to deal with the full pains of the premed process but could likely end up at a considerably stronger MD program than Alpert.
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Few statistics and thoughts here:

Harvard has an overall admit rate of >85% to medical school for its undergraduates. Princeton sends 1/3 of it's successful premeds to top 10 schools, so let's assume Harvard is similar (I can source both of these if you really need me to). If you go to Harvard, it stands that you have an excellent chance of attending a medical school, and a fairly good shot (depends on your MCAT and ECs) at going to a top program. However, as efle pointed out, you would have to go through the whole premed shebang, meaning acing science classes, worrying about GPA, doing all the necessary ECs, getting letters of rec, acing the MCAT, and all of the associated intangibles. In the long run, if you're aiming (for whatever reason), for a top tier medical school, etc, then Harvard would give you the better shot, though it is a gamble - there's always the chance that you will be in the ~15% that don't make it, or you may end up going to a "worse" medical school than Brown. It's not a particularly safe bet, considering the opportunity cost, but it's not an enormous risk either.

On the other hand, Brown would give you the freedom to do whatever you wanted during your undergraduate years along with the essentially guaranteed opportunity to go to a wonderful medical school. This means you don't have to worry about all that other stuff, your GPA won't be as important, you have fewer hoops to jump through, and you can spend your time on what you really want to do. Your quality of life at Brown will not be better than Harvard just because its Brown (honestly both have a great QoL for most people) - it will be because you have a lot more flexibility, which is something to take very strongly into account, considering how important these years will be to your personal and professional maturation. Additionally, you are not locked into the PLME program. You are always free to take the MCAT, and if you score exceptionally well, you can opt-out of PLME and apply the traditional route (assuming you have the GPA and experiences to back you up), and Brown has historically strong placements at top medical schools as well (not quite as good as Harvard, but very very good).

It's up to you to determine what is important. Both schools will provide you with some of the best educational experiences in the world. You can't really make a "wrong" choice here, in my opinion. You are likely to succeed in both cases. It all depends on what you're comfortable risking and what you think the best path is for you.
 
Great points by Wedgie there. It would help to know whether you might have an interest in academic medicine or selective specialties, as those would be the only real reasons to shoot for higher MD programs than Alpert. Your life as a pre-accepted applicant at one of the most relaxed of the elite colleges would be many premed's dream, and the obvious choice imo unless you're potentially gunning for the most competitive areas of medicine.

One point of disagreement though...QoL really isn't so comparable on average. The Brown atmosphere is just much much happier and more relaxed. In PR's student happiness surveys Brown kills it every year with ratings 98+ while Harvard and MIT hit low 80s, and UChicago and Hopkins upper 70s, pretty much what you'd expect.
 
efle said:
One point of disagreement though...QoL really isn't so comparable on average. The Brown atmosphere is just much much happier and more relaxed. In PR's student happiness surveys Brown kills it every year with ratings 98+ while Harvard and MIT hit low 80s, and UChicago and Hopkins upper 70s, pretty much what you'd expect.
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Eh, I'm always suspect of PR's data, but I guess it's probably true that the average Brown student is "happier" (however that measured) than the average Harvard student, but honestly, you'll likely be reasonably happy+ at either school. People that I know who attend both schools seem to be enjoying themselves.
 
Nah, I feel all the extra work is not worth it especially if you're 100% sure medicine is what you want to do. Sure, Harvard can open more doors than Brown but that does not mean Brown does not provide quality opportunities equal to that of Harvard.

Brown: Happier(subjective), less stressful, no MCAT, no application process, save some money, great education. You might as well stick MD to your name.

Harvard: Prestige. MCAT. Stress. Application Process. $$$$, great education. You'll have to wait 4-5 years to see if you can stick MD to your name.
 
Thank you all for your responses! I appreciate each and every one of them.

From my previous clinical/lab experiences (3+ years), I would love to become a dermatologist and possibly work abroad in Asia. Would attending one school or the other affect this dream in any way? I'm a bit worried that Alpert matches so few people to dermatology each year (0-2); I know it's more geared towards primary care which can influence the statistics, but I would really like to specialize in derm (to clarify: I am not choosing this field because of $$, but because I have done research in this field for a few years and find it extremely interesting).
 
2019premed said:
Thank you all for your responses! I appreciate each and every one of them.

From my previous clinical/lab experiences (3+ years), I would love to become a dermatologist and possibly work abroad in Asia. Would attending one school or the other affect this dream in any way? I'm a bit worried that Alpert matches so few people to dermatology each year (0-2); I know it's more geared towards primary care which can influence the statistics, but I would really like to specialize in derm (to clarify: I am not choosing this field because of $$, but because I have done research in this field for a few years and find it extremely interesting).
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No one here cares if you want to derm for the money or not, we're not interviewing you. Most people do derm for the lifestyle btw, so keep in mind they will be your future colleagues.

Your step 1 score will determine whether or not you'll get into a derm residency. The name of the medical school (among other factors) may help determine the quality of residency.

Keep in mind most people (even at Harvard) that say they're pre-med end up not even applying to medical school, and most people that say they want to do X end up not applying to X in medical school. You're trying to match into the most selective specialty, before you've even taken the MCAT or even the intro weeder courses. Maybe you'll find you will continue to crush fools and ace the step exams and have no problem matching into derm...maybe not. Point is you seem like you've already mounded exceedingly high expectations on yourself when you haven't had a taste of "real" standardized tests yet.

If you want to be a doctor the brown pathway is a better bet. If you want to be a dermatologist that is entirely up to your performance on the step exam.
 
@2019premed if you're sure that medicine is what you want to go into this shouldn't even be a tough decision.
Yes, if you go to Harvard you MIGHT get into a better medical school than Alpert...but in addition to that being only a small chance (you really can't go off of % applied vs. % in Top 10, Top 25, etc. A better indicator would be # of premeds in freshman year vs. # of students matriculating to Top 25 medical schools--you can't just ignore the difficulty of the premed path, and the many reasons that ~80% of pre-meds don't end up in medical school!)

The Brown PLME program is possibly the best deal for premeds on the planet. The amount of time and worry and stress that it saves you from will legitimately add years to your life. As well as aggregate of ~10k+ in MCAT prep, application, and interview fees. As for your specialty choices: Alpert absolutely WILL NOT effect your match. Given a high enough Step I score (which is very difficult to achieve for Derm....) and clinical grades/LORs etc, Brown will open up any residency spot in the country for you. Is it as prestigious as HMS? No. Is it a terrific medical school that everyone will respect throughout your career? Yes. Going to Harvard undergrad and then onto a school like HMS is much more difficult than people sometimes imagine.

Harvard undergrads are a dime a dozen (no offense!), and many end up at mid-low tier med schools or dropping premed altogether. Brown PLME is the way to go if you know you belong in that white coat.

Edit: Anecdotally, I know three people that turned down HYPS for Brown PLME. I know none that went the other way around. n=3.

I'm personally in a position where I'm applying to the vast majority of Top 25 medical schools, after many years of unbelievably stressing work. If you could go back 4 years and offer me Brown PLME I'd take it in a heartbeat over my Top 15 undergrad/merit scholarship. Personal preference, n=1.
 
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md-2020 said:
@2019premed if you're sure that medicine is what you want to go into this shouldn't even be a tough decision.
Yes, if you go to Harvard you MIGHT get into a better medical school than Alpert...

I'm personally in a position where I'm applying to the vast majority of Top 25 medical schools, after many years of unbelievably stressing work. If you could go back 4 years and offer me Brown PLME I'd take it in a heartbeat over my Top 15 undergrad/merit scholarship. Personal preference, n=1.
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Harvard undergrads git-r-done with respect to medical school admissions. If you are meant to be a physician, you will get in without problems, and probably be admitted to elite schools. And, you can still get into almost any residency from any allopathic school so ... Harvard UG is a great choice.
 
RustBeltOnc said:
If you are meant to be a physician, you will get in without problems, and probably be admitted to elite schools.
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You really can't say this to someone that has not even started undergrad yet. The pre-med drop out rate, even at Harvard, is very, very significant. And then there is the new MCAT....
I acknowledge that Harvard grads do very well in med admission cycles. But, based on multiple friends who went through the process at Harvard and are now in medical school, I would be very surprised if >1/3 matriculated to Top 25 schools. That's far from safe or a guarantee by any stretch.
 
the idea that a good "quality of life" is the overriding reason to choose brown is foolish. if you slack off in college, you won't be prepared for the rigor of ANY medical school, alpert or not.

I finished college many years ago. keep in mind that most "pre-meds" don't even apply to med school. the harvard name will open far more doors than you could imagine should you choose anything other than medicine. plus living in boston is far better than providence. plus if you actually put in the effort, you will still be able to get into any medical school having gone to harvard college.
 
doc05 said:
the idea that a good "quality of life" is the overriding reason to choose brown is foolish. if you slack off in college, you won't be prepared for the rigor of ANY medical school, alpert or not.

I finished college many years ago. keep in mind that most "pre-meds" don't even apply to med school. the harvard name will open far more doors than you could imagine should you choose anything other than medicine. plus living in boston is far better than providence. plus if you actually put in the effort, you will still be able to get into any medical school having gone to harvard college.
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If you aren't sure about medicine then by all means Harvard 100%.
 
md-2020 said:
You really can't say this to someone that has not even started undergrad yet. The pre-med drop out rate, even at Harvard, is very, very significant. And then there is the new MCAT....
I acknowledge that Harvard grads do very well in med admission cycles. But, based on multiple friends who went through the process at Harvard and are now in medical school, I would be very surprised if >1/3 matriculated to Top 25 schools. That's far from safe or a guarantee by any stretch.
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I hear you, but .... a standardized test is a standardized test is a standardized test. People who get into Harvard and peer colleges for mostly academic reasons, do well on these tests.

Guess what? Someone who gets a "34" on the ACT ... isn't going to bomb the MCAT because they made some changes.
 
md-2020 said:
You really can't say this to someone that has not even started undergrad yet. The pre-med drop out rate, even at Harvard, is very, very significant. And then there is the new MCAT....
I acknowledge that Harvard grads do very well in med admission cycles. But, based on multiple friends who went through the process at Harvard and are now in medical school, I would be very surprised if >1/3 matriculated to Top 25 schools. That's far from safe or a guarantee by any stretch.
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I have no idea what you're trying to say here. The pre-med drop out rate is so high because kids entering college don't know what they're in for, and are very very likely to change their minds. Ultimately this means Harvard is a better choice than Brown/PLME, because it will allow better options for anyone who changes their mind.
 
RustBeltOnc said:
I hear you, but .... a standardized test is a standardized test is a standardized test. People who get into Harvard and peer colleges for mostly academic reasons, do well on these tests.

Guess what? Someone who gets a "34" on the ACT ... isn't going to bomb the MCAT because they made some changes.
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Comparing the MCAT to SAT/ACT is a very risky idea. Plenty of high scorers on SAT/ACT do not do nearly as well on the MCAT. Examples of these are commonly seen in the WAMC forum.
@doc05 We might have some miscommunication here. In general, yes, your point is very valid; Harvard is absolutely better for people looking to keep career and major options open. However, my post was in regard to the OP, who seems to have expressed a 100% commitment to medicine. In that case, Brown PLME is obviously a more advantageous deal.
 
md-2020 said:
Comparing the MCAT to SAT/ACT is a very risky idea. Plenty of high scorers on SAT/ACT do not do nearly as well on the MCAT.
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guilty


@doc05 We might have some miscommunication here. In general, yes, your point is very valid; Harvard is absolutely better for people looking to keep career and major options open. However, my post was in regard to the OP, who seems to have expressed a 100% commitment to medicine. In that case, Brown PLME is obviously a more advantageous deal.
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Brown is the safer option, 99.9% risk free option, but OP will likely succeed at Harvard as well (given his or her track record).
 
md-2020 said:
Comparing the MCAT to SAT/ACT is a very risky idea. Plenty of high scorers on SAT/ACT do not do nearly as well on the MCAT. Examples of these are commonly seen in the WAMC forum.
@doc05 We might have some miscommunication here. In general, yes, your point is very valid; Harvard is absolutely better for people looking to keep career and major options open. However, my post was in regard to the OP, who seems to have expressed a 100% commitment to medicine. In that case, Brown PLME is obviously a more advantageous deal.
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maybe so, but a 100% commitment to medicine from an 18 y/o who just finished high school is absurd.
 
md-2020 said:
Comparing the MCAT to SAT/ACT is a very risky idea. Plenty of high scorers on SAT/ACT do not do nearly as well on the MCAT.
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It isn't risky, not for the institution and not for the individual.

In the old days, Hopkins didn't even require it. They looked at transcripts, colleges, and LORs and picked people that continue to make Sir Osler proud. And of course the PMLE program exists.

Like I wrote, someone who gets into Harvard and peers for academic reasons, this test is the least of their concerns. Even if their performance isn't dominant, the worst that could happen, oh no, going to Vandy instead of HMS. Big deal.
 
RustBeltOnc said:
It isn't risky, not for the institution and not for the individual.

In the old days, Hopkins didn't even require it. They looked at transcripts, colleges, and LORs and picked people that continue to make Sir Osler proud. And of course the PMLE program exists.

Like I wrote, someone who gets into Harvard and peers for academic reasons, this test is the least of their concerns. Even if their performance isn't dominant, the worst that could happen, oh no, going to Vandy instead of HMS. Big deal.
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Well, it's not quite that simple. Yes, a student at Harvard most likely has the ability and drive to successfully apply to medical school, but they still are more likely to end up at a non top tier school than at a top tier school. They probably have a better shot at anyone in the country at a top tier school, but they still aren't automatically (or even most likely) guaranteed a position at a school like Vanderbilt. Plenty of Harvard students go to low/mid tier medical schools.
 
WedgeDawg said:
Well, it's not quite that simple. Yes, a student at Harvard most likely has the ability and drive to successfully apply to medical school, but they still are more likely to end up at a non top tier school than at a top tier school. They probably have a better shot at anyone in the country at a top tier school, but they still aren't automatically (or even most likely) guaranteed a position at a school like Vanderbilt. Plenty of Harvard students go to low/mid tier medical schools.
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so?? what's wrong with that? Brown isn't a "top tier" med school anyways.
 
doc05 said:
maybe so, but a 100% commitment to medicine from an 18 y/o who just finished high school is absurd.
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I don't disagree. But I'm just going off/making recommendations of what he started the thread by saying.
 
Harvard. No doubt. You will NOT fail to go to med school coming out of Harvard College, even with a terrible GPA. I promise.
 
ElCapone said:
Brown Alpert without a doubt. You'll save yourself the stress that we're suffering right now as we apply for med schools 🙂

Also going to Harvard undergrad is in itself not a guarantee that you will go to med school afterwards. You'll be competing against a bunch of very well qualified kids for a limited number of A's and B's, which will hurt your GPA.

I also had a friend who went to Brown, and loved it. The attention they gave him there has enabled him to do a lot of... major stuff.
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My .02 but you won't have a hard time getting a good GPA at Harvard if you are qualified enough to get into Brown PLME. Key words: Grade inflation. Courses will still be very challenging, though.

However I agree with all above posters that pre-med drop out rates are high across the board, including at the top Ivies. Harvard is great, but you will be committing yourself to 4 years of high-intensity pressure to perform equally well or better than your premed classmates -- not just in GPA, but also in having the 'best' ECs and experiences, which arguably is where the real competition lies at places like Harvard (I went somewhere similar... barely anyone talks about grades but everyone talks about achievements). Remember that your classmates will be some of the most competitive kids in the country. Your daily life will be a constant, subtle game of who's-doing-what and how-can-I-be-better. This game will make you crazy and sad at times, but it will also drive you to excel while simultaneously learning about yourself and your interests. Bottom line: It's going to be much, much, much more stressful to be pre-med at Harvard than it will be to go to Brown as a PLME. But going to Harvard will give you potentially higher rewards.

Also, I don't know about Brown, but Harvard definitely has a lot of money for research fellowships for summer travel. So if going abroad to do research is something you want to do, I'd look into whether Brown has similar sources of funding.

Last point is that of course, the name "Harvard" will carry you no matter what you decide to do. You may change your mind about medicine (I know I know you refuse to believe this, but it happens all the time). If you do, Harvard will serve you way better than Brown.

I think your answer rests on what kind of person you are. If you are like me and do best in high-pressure environments, Harvard is for you. You will be stressed out but also will be inspired to do and achieve amazing things. If you thrive in low-pressure, unregulated environments and are sure about medicine, definitely go to Brown.
 
WedgeDawg said:
Yes to both; you just lose your guaranteed spot.
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If that is the case it is less of a commitment and that drastically reduces the cons. I seriously doubt that anyone was held back by going to Brown over Harvard and Alpert, while it may not offer the opportunities of a top 10, is still Top 35 and will not hold anyone back. I definitely see the potential for a more relaxed undergraduate career as a legitimate reason to pass over what is for many an inconsequential difference in pedigree.
 
Maybe it's just me, but I have found that I am much more happy and satisfied with my life when I have a little pressure (or even stress). If I were in your position OP I might find myself lacking the drive to succeed and truely excell in an environment that is more "stress free" so-to-speak. I found this to be especially true with the few pass fail classes I took. Even though the pressure to get an A was gone, I found it even more difficult to focus on that class and give it my best effort. Then again, that was Spanish.. And I hated Spanish.

My vote is harvard. That name is worth sooo much as many have pointed out.
 
ski89 said:
Maybe it's just me, but I have found that I am much more happy and satisfied with my life when I have a little pressure (or even stress). If I were in your position OP I might find myself lacking the drive to succeed and truely excell in an environment that is more "stress free" so-to-speak. I found this to be especially true with the few pass fail classes I took. Even though the pressure to get an A was gone, I found it even more difficult to focus on that class and give it my best effort. Then again, that was Spanish.. And I hated Spanish.

My vote is harvard. That name is worth sooo much as many have pointed out.
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I feel like there's sarcasm in this post I'm not getting....
 
Coming from someone who took a guaranteed gig in a professional program and later decided on a different career path, I hesitate to recommend pre-accepted programs - especially when your other option is Harvard. I have to agree a bit with the above poster that surrounding yourself with those striving to be the best helps push you to be your best. It's not the life for everyone but for those that want to be exceptional it's IMO necessary. Also, I'm under the impression that you carry zero bargaining power in terms of financial aid in a guaranteed program vs. when you enter the general AMCAS pool. Admittedly there is a lot of hassle in applying to medical school outright and it can't be quantified in a dollar figure, but financially if you are a highly competitive applicant you would come out better applying outright than in a guaranteed program. I'm sure you'd be just as successful at both places OP and will find your niche whether you stick with med at either or decide on another career path. Your problem is a good problem.
 
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