headscarf & psychiatry??

[Rpre19]

HI all,

I have a question mostly for the residents & attendings that might be on the site...but will take some well-rounded advice from all

I am a 4th yr that is waiting for the match results in psychiatry (yay!!)
As long as I match anywhere, I will be in NYC, very diversified. My question is this, have you ever come across a psych resident or attending that wears the headscarf for Islam? I know for sure that I will be putting the scarf on in the future & was wondering about the ramifications of this in this unique field. Obviously it will be probably be quite different dealing with pts in psych wearing a headscarf (hijab) vs being a medicine resident & interacting with pts in a headscarf. Any experience that anyone might have to offer will be very appreciated. I am sure that not wearing the covering will be out of the question in the future.
I should alos mention that I did not wear the covering during interviews bc I am just not wearing it yet. I dont mean to come across as having misled my interviewers--I just wasnt ready for it yet. I wonder if they will be surprised &/or upset that they didnt know this about me (though with some of them we ended up talking about my religious conversion-dont remember how that came up! lol)
Thank you so much!!

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[Chimed]

We have one female resident in our program that wears a headscarf. Because we respect each other's religious beliefs, this has never been brought up. As a medical student we had several females wear a hijab, and it was never an issue.

There should be absolutely no question about whether or not you should be allowed to wear this at any program you match into, especially for religious reasons. IMHO, it is up to you whether or not you want to mention to the program the reason you are wearing one now, but you should not feel obligated to do so.

I wouldn't worry about it. It is probably a bigger deal for you then for others.

 

[MDhasbeen]

HI all,

I have a question mostly for the residents & attendings that might be on the site...but will take some well-rounded advice from all

I am a 4th yr that is waiting for the match results in psychiatry (yay!!)
As long as I match anywhere, I will be in NYC, very diversified. My question is this, have you ever come across a psych resident or attending that wears the headscarf for Islam? I know for sure that I will be putting the scarf on in the future & was wondering about the ramifications of this in this unique field. Obviously it will be probably be quite different dealing with pts in psych wearing a headscarf (hijab) vs being a medicine resident & interacting with pts in a headscarf. Any experience that anyone might have to offer will be very appreciated. I am sure that not wearing the covering will be out of the question in the future.
I should alos mention that I did not wear the covering during interviews bc I am just not wearing it yet. I dont mean to come across as having misled my interviewers--I just wasnt ready for it yet. I wonder if they will be surprised &/or upset that they didnt know this about me (though with some of them we ended up talking about my religious conversion-dont remember how that came up! lol)
Thank you so much!!

as far as your specific question about possibly misleading programs somehow, i wouldn't worry too much about it. your religion is your preference, and no program has the right to punish you on the basis of your personal beliefs and/or attire save for obviously inappropriate/seductive/etc clothing that could be detrimental in the clinical setting.

one of the 4th year residents in my program wears a hijab around all the time. not sure if she's run into any problems from it other than from her own family (they're from syria and actually tried to encourage her to do anything but get into conservative islam). at any rate, from what i've seen with her interactions with patients, she's done well. if she gets treated differently for it, i'm sure the patient (or staff member) could just as easily have picked on something else by which to discriminate her. hope that's somewhat helpful.

 

[Faebinder]

This is a touchy subject. Discrimination is everywhere and in every religion but Psychiatry is more tolerant of people's beliefs. In some cases it might be positive f you come across some mentally ill muslims (never had one before, wonder how would the "I'm Jesus" delusions manifest).

Now if this was surgery or OBGYN, you might be about to face an iron wall because of the inpracticality of the hijab in the world of surgery.

In the end, when residency is done, find the group/private practice that fits your way of life and benefits your patients.

 

[nancysinatra]

Now if this was surgery or OBGYN, you might be about to face an iron wall because of the inpracticality of the hijab in the world of surgery.

What do they do in the Arab world about this? I'm SURE they've found a solution. My cousin is a muslim (via her dad's side of the family) and wears the Saudi-style hijab and a face veil--and she made it through all of medical school and was planning on going into OB/GYN. She changed her mind in the end, but that had nothing to do with the hijab. I've seen special hijabs for swimming--I'm sure there must be something for female surgeons! It might be hard to find in the states, but there must be something.

I'm only a med student so I don't know what responses you'll encounter as a resident. But I'd say that there are more people out there than you might realize who have their own connections to Islam.

If you were in Europe, I'd think this might be a problem, because of the anti-hijab policies sprouting up there. But here in America, I hope we continue to value our religious diversity and protect our freedom to express it. This should be as true in psychiatry as anywhere else!

 

[michaelrack]

In some cases it might be positive f you come across some mentally ill muslims (never had one before, wonder how would the "I'm Jesus" delusions manifest).

I'm guessing they would have "I'm Muhammed" delusions.

 

[Rpre19]

hey guys,
thanks for the responses-some gave me a good laugh

i guess iwas more concerned about the interactions with suspicious/delusional/paranoid patients (especially since I am most interesed in psychotic disorders). As one poster pointed out its probably true that if pts are going to have a problem with their dr it can be for any reason they want to find...not limited to a religious reason.

AS for surgery, I know of several residents muslim & sikh that have found very inventive ways to cover up

thanks again. Ya know the psych forum is one of the most helpful forums on this site. Someone the other day was saying they were hesitant to post on SDN bc of aggressive posters but I told them NOT IN THE PSYCH FORUM!!

Thanks again & good luck to all in the match process

 

[Anasazi23]

hey guys,
thanks for the responses-some gave me a good laugh

i guess iwas more concerned about the interactions with suspicious/delusional/paranoid patients (especially since I am most interesed in psychotic disorders). As one poster pointed out its probably true that if pts are going to have a problem with their dr it can be for any reason they want to find...not limited to a religious reason.

I'll say it since nobody else is.

You will run into problems with patients by wearing the scarf. I've seen on many occassions, patients that refuse to be seen by any Middle-eastern appearing doctor, be they Indian, Pakistani, or Arab. Just in the last two weeks, I've had to see three patients in the clinic that rejected being seen by Indian-american residents. It's part of the business, particulary in our post-911 culture, to expect those of the paranoid persuasion, to be reticent in this type of scenario.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I'll say it since nobody else is.

You will run into problems with patients by wearing the scarf. I've seen on many occassions, patients that refuse to be seen by any Middle-eastern appearing doctor, be they Indian, Pakistani, or Arab. Just in the last two weeks, I've had to see three patients in the clinic that rejected being seen by Indian-american residents. It's part of the business, particulary in our post-911 culture, to expect those of the paranoid persuasion, to be reticent in this type of scenario.

I've seen this also with our residents, and we're quite a bit farther from Ground Zero.

 

[billypilgrim37]

If it weren't for the invisible transmitter you're hiding under there, there wouldn't be a problem.

A narcissistic parent during my inpatient child unit wanted to talk to me instead of that "rude Muslim girl" child fellow. She then immediately became acquainted with "rude medical student" and "ridiculously rude attending."

 

[whopper]

I don't think anyone in my own program would not allow someone to wear a scarf, especially if it were for their own religious beliefs.

However...

The males were told not to wear ties because patients could grab them & strangle the resident. If we did however want to wear them, we could.

 

[Faebinder]

I don't think anyone in my own program would not allow someone to wear a scarf, especially if it were for their own religious beliefs.

However...

The males were told not to wear ties because patients could grab them & strangle the resident. If we did however want to wear them, we could.

I know one guy who used to wear clip on ties. One day a patient snapped at his tie and the clip on flew right off. It was funny for 2 seconds before security came and held him down.

 

[cleareyedguy]

For Anasazi: I don't think I'd let nonpsychotic patients refuse to be seen by doctors who are from an unfamiliar culture. I've very rarely seen people give my residents a grilling about their backgrounds, and I simply give them a quick brush off and get back to work

For rpre: You are under absolutely no obligation to say a word to anyone about your religious conversion. You are also not obligated to say hello to people in the hall or tell people where you grew up. If I (or you in 20 years) were the PD, I'd like a brief, crisp explanation for a significant change in a trainee's appearance. Do you think that would be invasive? If so, I think you need to mull over whether you are ready to make such a public statement about your religious beliefs.

 

[Anasazi23]

For Anasazi: I don't think I'd let nonpsychotic patients refuse to be seen by doctors who are from an unfamiliar culture. I've very rarely seen people give my residents a grilling about their backgrounds, and I simply give them a quick brush off and get back to work

Well, I don't blame you and in a perfect world, I'd do the same. Problem is, when you have a clinic with 10 walk-in's waiting, and two available residents, you'll either lose patients (a big no-no in fiscally distressed NYC hospitals...which are all of them btw) or have another resident switch. It rarely (never) reaches the PD level....it's usually a quick decision made by the residents who are just trying to get things under control.

 

[Rpre19]

hey cleareyed guy,

I figure it would be kinda petty of me if I had a problem answering questions about my beliefs, conversion or where I grew up (Brooklyn!!! which gives me a pretty thick skin & a great sarcastic wit )



& I am fully ready to face discrimination, from patients & anyone else...I see it all the time. I've lived in a small city/town for the past 4 yrs that is incredibly narrow-minded &, frankly, racist. I was just curious if anyone had any experience with specifics or knew of anyone dealing with it. I can of course speculate what reactions might be. i was thinking more along the lines of the psychotics that might want to choke me with the headscarf. & I was mostly wondering if programs would be sorta p-o'ed, as in, will they think it will be too much trouble for their patients...that's why I was wondering if the attendings had any input.

But good discussion so far! & I totally get the gut reaction of the covering. I had it myself several years ago. As in "I would never wear one of those on my head!" LOL

Thanks again all!

 

[whopper]

I don't think I'd let nonpsychotic patients refuse to be seen by doctors who are from an unfamiliar culture.

Interesting thought--can't patients refuse to see a doctor? Don't they have that right, even if it is based on ignorance?

 

[Rpre19]

whopper I've wondered that too.

I saw a pt tell an attending everyday that she didnt want to see her anymore & the attending would keep coming back. Now, the pt here was delusional & was convinced the attending was someone from her past that had done her wrong (there was a racial undertone also but that didnt seem to be the primary reason)

In another scenario a pt w/ BPD didnt want to speak to the attending but this attending arranged for her outpt doc to come see her on the ward.

So I always wondered if we were working that first pt up everyday into a tizzy & just not respondign bc she was delusional even though she also didnt want an Indian dr to see her
what to do, huh?

 

[Anasazi23]

Interesting thought--can't patients refuse to see a doctor? Don't they have that right, even if it is based on ignorance?

Perhaps by individual policy. But a clinic is not under an obligation to continually provide additional doctors if the patient keeps requesting.

Off topic slightly, but this quickly develops into a hot topic. We had a weird situation in our outpatient clinic last year, whereby a patient (a narcissistic male) was demanding to see a "hot" psychiatrist female.

He was dead serious.

He refused to be seen by a male, and wanted to "eyeball" any female "candidates" for the proverbial job.

You'd think this would have gone as far as that...good for a few laughs. Until one of the social workers (a woman no less) insisted that we were being too flippant with this character, and that this was all a part of his personality dysfunction. My vote, of course, was to boot his *** out the door. This actually became a year-long topic about all kinds of patients and their "requests." i.e. there was another white lady who had some sort of weird pseudo-delusion/connection to the middle eastern people and culture. India in particular. She had been in the clinic for years, and was very concerned at the fact that her new resident for the year would not be Indian, since her caseload was already full. I completely balked on this, telling everyone that she has to deal with the cards she's dealt. Others, amazingly, were sympathetic to her and actually rearranged their caseloads so that she could see the Indian resident.

 

[Faebinder]

Perhaps by individual policy. But a clinic is not under an obligation to continually provide additional doctors if the patient keeps requesting.

Off topic slightly, but this quickly develops into a hot topic. We had a weird situation in our outpatient clinic last year, whereby a patient (a narcissistic male) was demanding to see a "hot" psychiatrist female.

He was dead serious.

He refused to be seen by a male, and wanted to "eyeball" any female "candidates" for the proverbial job.

You'd think this would have gone as far as that...good for a few laughs. Until one of the social workers (a woman no less) insisted that we were being too flippant with this character, and that this was all a part of his personality dysfunction. My vote, of course, was to boot his *** out the door. This actually became a year-long topic about all kinds of patients and their "requests." i.e. there was another white lady who had some sort of weird pseudo-delusion/connection to the middle eastern people and culture. India in particular. She had been in the clinic for years, and was very concerned at the fact that her new resident for the year would not be Indian, since her caseload was already full. I completely balked on this, telling everyone that she has to deal with the cards she's dealt. Others, amazingly, were sympathetic to her and actually rearranged their caseloads so that she could see the Indian resident.

Ya know when you said this... I started picturing a clinic with all the docs profiled outside in a welcome book. All have their pictures and origins... sorta like when they are applying to residency.

There is only so much you can do for someone who really doesn't want to get better.

 

[strangeglove]

This is problematic on many levels. I suspect that the need to see an Indian psychiatrist has some aspect of exoticization/fetishization of Indian culture, with all of its connection to New Age/mystical beliefs. Also, I wonder whether this is different from patients who prefer Jewish psychiatrists (there are many, though most know better than to make this preference known to their psychiatrist). I suspect there is a difference, and that the preference for Jewish psychiatrists probably has something to do with the fact that Freud was Jewish. This is, of course, totally irrational. Is this somehow more acceptable? I'm not sure.

Perhaps by individual policy. But a clinic is not under an obligation to continually provide additional doctors if the patient keeps requesting.

Off topic slightly, but this quickly develops into a hot topic. We had a weird situation in our outpatient clinic last year, whereby a patient (a narcissistic male) was demanding to see a "hot" psychiatrist female.

He was dead serious.

He refused to be seen by a male, and wanted to "eyeball" any female "candidates" for the proverbial job.

You'd think this would have gone as far as that...good for a few laughs. Until one of the social workers (a woman no less) insisted that we were being too flippant with this character, and that this was all a part of his personality dysfunction. My vote, of course, was to boot his *** out the door. This actually became a year-long topic about all kinds of patients and their "requests." i.e. there was another white lady who had some sort of weird pseudo-delusion/connection to the middle eastern people and culture. India in particular. She had been in the clinic for years, and was very concerned at the fact that her new resident for the year would not be Indian, since her caseload was already full. I completely balked on this, telling everyone that she has to deal with the cards she's dealt. Others, amazingly, were sympathetic to her and actually rearranged their caseloads so that she could see the Indian resident.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Or maybe it's the fact that you could see any random 5 psychiatrists in the country, and the chance of them all 5 being Jewish is something like 35%

I suspect there is a difference, and that the preference for Jewish psychiatrists probably has something to do with the fact that Freud was Jewish.

 

[sunlioness]

Interesting thought--can't patients refuse to see a doctor? Don't they have that right, even if it is based on ignorance?

It's an interesting question. My gut reaction was "of course they do!" Even though I personally don't admire such attitudes, I would think that a patient would have a right to see someone with whom they are culturally comfortable. But then again, I don't think people have the right not to hire someone with whom they are culturally uncomfortable, so isn't this the same? So I guess maybe it boils down to what it often boils down to anyway . . . Patients who have money and good insurance generally see who they want. Patients who go to community mental health centers take who they get. I dunno if I like that either.

 

[whopper]

I don't think people have the right not to hire someone with whom they are culturally uncomfortable, so isn't this the same?

The patient is not the "employer" of the doctor in a legal sense, and as such, the doctor cannot enforce employee rights.

If that were the case, a doctor could have patients that didn't pay charged with a criminal offense, demand mandatory breaks & demand that the patient provide an atmosphere that did not violate employee rights.

The inpatient unit at my own program would consider allowing a patient swtich to the other inpatient doctor (there's 2) on the unit if the request were not to satisfy a nontherapeutic agenda. E.g. if the patient wanted a different doctor because the patient was doctor shopping and didn't like the first doctor's treatment regimen because it did not involve giving disability to a patient who clearly did not qualify for it.

 

[manwhoisthursdy]

India is not part of the Middle East ... not sure if you (Anasazi) were saying that the patient saw it that way, but just wanted clarify.

 

[sunlioness]

The patient is not the "employer" of the doctor in a legal sense, and as such, the doctor cannot enforce employee rights.

I know that's true in a legal sense, I'm just trying to sort through my own moral/ethical feelings on the subject. But that's good to clarify. Thanks.

 

[TheWowEffect]

I find it amusing that one rationalizes it as being part of the business if patients want to switch from other ethnic groups to you but a patient's desire to be switched to a doctor from other ethnic groups is baffling

Sorry! couldn't resist

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

Sorry to butt in but, I was scrolling though some residency and behold a fully nigab or burqa style resident. Its just I would find it very hard to be a patient with a doctor whos face I couldnt see. Imagine waking up after surgery and you have burqa standing over you.....

 

[deleted77919]

Or maybe it's the fact that you could see any random 5 psychiatrists in the country, and the chance of them all 5 being Jewish is something like 35%

That would require 81% of all pscyhiatrists in the US to be Jewish.

Hmm, guess it's possible.

 

[TheWowEffect]

Sorry to butt in but, I was scrolling though some residency and behold a fully nigab or burqa style resident. Its just I would find it very hard to be a patient with a doctor whos face I couldnt see. Imagine waking up after surgery and you have burqa standing over you.....

I am a huge opponent of the practise of wearing your religion on your sleeve, but it's just too hard to reason with people who do. I think hijab is becoming more of a fad among muslim female physicians. Sorry if it offends anyone, but how do you explain wearing tight fitting western jeans with hijab on top. These two things just do not go together.

Anyway, may be we need to get back to the original topic. I think more and more muslim female residents are wearing the hijab and original poster need not worry, but be ready to face patients coming with differing opinions and many doctor-switching requests.

 

[Anasazi23]

I find it amusing that one rationalizes it as being part of the business if patients want to switch from other ethnic groups to you but a patient's desire to be switched to a doctor from other ethnic groups is baffling

Sorry! couldn't resist

Oh, how I wish I could believe or understand that!

 

[whopper]

Somewhat OT, but might be of help.

In one year, we had 3 doctors in the program that were Muslim. 1 was an attending (still here, the other 2 were residents who graduated).

1 of the residents was timid, and had a history of being picked on as a kid. He was short, scrawny and had a voice that sounded like he was still in grade school. (He had the complete collection of the Gummi Bears on DVD to give you a better idea). The guy was actually expecting to get attacked on the job.

Patients could sense this & were more manipulative with him. He did get some anti-Muslim resentment & the patients were easily able to identify him as someone from a Muslim culture even though he hardly made any mention of it. (He's of Pakistani ethnicity). He got assaulted about 3 times a year-nothing bad, things like getting a plastic cup of water flung into him. If an anti-Muslim attitude ever appeared, he'd often cower. He was over-reacting. One time a patient threatened him and a 70 year old nurse yelled at the patient "don't scare this young doctor!". The nurse put the patient in line with verbal redirection, but the 29 year old resident got scared, ran to the nurses' station & ducked behind it.

The other 2 muslim doctors were confident, were willing to talk to patients if the patient had a "Muslim" issue and were able hold their own and address those issues with the patient if it ever arose--pretty much to the patient's satisfaction each time.

Those 2 doctors never had any situation where their patients demanded to switch doctors.

The problem could arise but if handled appropriately, it could be quickly dispelled.

 

[billypilgrim37]

I think hijab is becoming more of a fad among muslim female physicians. Sorry if it offends anyone, but how do you explain wearing tight fitting western jeans with hijab on top. These two things just do not go together.

Urban hipster misogyny alert!!! It burns!!! It burns!!!

Not sure of your gender, but how about this one: "Being male and complaining about tight fitting western jeans*... [t]hese two things just do not go together..."

*assuming, of course, BMI wnl...

 

[TheWowEffect]

Urban hipster misogyny alert!!! It burns!!! It burns!!!

Not sure of your gender, but how about this one: "Being male and complaining about tight fitting western jeans*... [t]hese two things just do not go together..."

*assuming, of course, BMI wnl...

Well, well......the daggers are out & hell hath no fury.......... [.....ducks & takes a cover]

BTW, I have no problem with "tight fitting western jeans." Trying to express yourself on an internet board can certainly lead to a lot of ambiguity. My issue is with wearing your religion on your sleeve, be it a male or a female.

 

[sunlioness]

I don't see headscarfs and the like as advertising one's religion so much as trying to uphold the values of one's religion and live within its tenets. This has the side effect of "advertising", but really isn't the intended point so far as I can see.

 

[BabyPsychDoc]

I grew up in a communist country where following any religion was synonymous to being the enemy of the state. Still, my grandparents managed to stick to their faith. They both prayed 5 times a day, fasted during Ramadan, and so on. The only thing they have not done that Koran says every Muslim should do is haj (?sp) to Mecca. They were very intelligent, were fluent in 3-5 languages each (including Arabic) but they did not do "well" by secular standards. They did not go to university and they could not be promoted in their jobs - all because they chose not to join the Communist Party. Still, they were pretty happy both in their spiritual life, family life and at work. They did not need to tell the world about their religion (best that they did not, otherwise I would not have been here now!) - their faith was in their hearts. I did not share their deep, moving faith but I had a lot of respect for it. I also had a lot of respect for the faith of many orthodox Christians, catholics, baptists - and anyone who had the guts to keep their prayers and their religious practice despite the fact it was not safe to do so.


If you have a deep, steady faith that has not withered with time and your faith requires that you wear a headscarf, then you wear a headscarf. Your concern about the general impression your headscarf may give to your colleagues and patients is certainly not unfounded. If your faith is strong , this concern should not stop you. On the other hand, I have been told by many Muslims that nowhere in Koran did Allah stipulate that the woman should wear a headscarf. And if this is the case, the only reason for women to wear one is to proclaim their faith publicly. Or to fit in with the culture, if you lived in a Muslim country (Saudi Arabia comes to mind) - but this is not what we are talking about here.

 

[nancysinatra]

I have been told by many Muslims that nowhere in Koran did Allah stipulate that the woman should wear a headscarf. And if this is the case, the only reason for women to wear one is to proclaim their faith publicly. Or to fit in with the culture, if you lived in a Muslim country (Saudi Arabia comes to mind) - but this is not what we are talking about here.

I don't really agree that just because the Koran does not state specifically that women should wear headscarves, that it follows that the only reason for a woman to wear a headscarf is to proclaim her faith publicly. Religions are intertwined with cultures and history and are more complicated than that. But if you insist on taking anything Muslims do that is not mandated by the Koran and interpreting it as a "public" proclamation of their faith, then you must have the same standard for other religions. Some of the Christian faiths you mentioned also engage in practices that are nowhere mentioned in the Bible. For example, if a Catholic is saying the rosary in a public place, is that to make a public statement too, since the Bible does not instruct anyone to carry around a chain of beads? What I'm saying is there are beliefs that people hold that come from their religions even if they are not part of the religion's original dogma. But that does not make them reducible to mere public expressions.

I have a friend who came to the US with her family from Turkey, so she could go to university and still wear a headscarf. If she was wearing the headscarf to make a statement or wear her religion on her sleeve, rather than out of modesty (which is how she explained it to me), then wouldn't it have made more sense for her to stay in Turkey and draw attention to herself by defying their headscarf ban? I just have never heard anyone say they wear a headscarf to make a statement.

 

[BabyPsychDoc]

I don't really agree that just because the Koran does not state specifically that women should wear headscarves, that it follows that the only reason for a woman to wear a headscarf is to proclaim her faith publicly. Religions are intertwined with cultures and history and are more complicated than that. But if you insist on taking anything Muslims do that is not mandated by the Koran and interpreting it as a "public" proclamation of their faith, then you must have the same standard for other religions. Some of the Christian faiths you mentioned also engage in practices that are nowhere mentioned in the Bible. For example, if a Catholic is saying the rosary in a public place, is that to make a public statement too, since the Bible does not instruct anyone to carry around a chain of beads? What I'm saying is there are beliefs that people hold that come from their religions even if they are not part of the religion's original dogma. But that does not make them reducible to mere public expressions.

I agree. But, the Catholic in question would not normally wonder what others would think about his or her using their rosary in public. If some act is, in your opinion, a part of your religious practice, then you follow that practice independent of the public opinion.

I have a friend who came to the US with her family from Turkey, so she could go to university and still wear a headscarf. If she was wearing the headscarf to make a statement or wear her religion on her sleeve, rather than out of modesty (which is how she explained it to me), then wouldn't it have made more sense for her to stay in Turkey and draw attention to herself by defying their headscarf ban?

I am not sure I follow your logic here. Can you elaborate, please? it is not that she would have drawn attention to herself; she would have been barred from the university. the headscarf ban, barring women from wearing headscarves in government buildings in Turkey has only been lifted very recently.

 

[nancysinatra]

I agree. But, the Catholic in question would not normally wonder what others would think about his or her using their rosary in public. If some act is, in your opinion, a part of your religious practice, then you follow that practice independent of the public opinion.

Why wouldn't they wonder? Why should a Muslim wonder, but a Catholic not wonder, about reactions of strangers to their practicing a religious custom in front of strangers? What is the difference you see between these two things--can you explain?

I am not sure I follow your logic here. Can you elaborate, please? it is not that she would have drawn attention to herself; she would have been barred from the university. the headscarf ban, barring women from wearing headscarves in government buildings in Turkey has only been lifted very recently.

I meant that if the purpose of the headscarf was to make a statement, then wouldn't it make more sense to stay put and wear the scarf in defiance of a law against it (risking expulsion or arrest in other words), rather than just moving away to some place where no one cares?

 

[billypilgrim37]

I've not met a Muslim woman for whom hijab was not a deeply personal part of their concept of their self and their relationship to their faith. Maybe others have different experiences, but I don't really think it's a valuable conversation to question the motivations of Muslim women who wear hijab.

 

[BabyPsychDoc]

I've not met a Muslim woman for whom hijab was not a deeply personal part of their concept of their self and their relationship to their faith. Maybe others have different experiences, but I don't really think it's a valuable conversation to question the motivations of Muslim women who wear hijab.

I do not question anyone's motivations to perform any religious rites, be it going through their rosary, wearing hijab or wearing a cross on their necklace. And I agree with you that many Muslim women wear hijab because it is a deeply personal part of their identity as Muslim. However, the OP said that she will be putting hijab on in the future, and is curious how it will be seen by others. To me, it says that a) the OP does not appear to view hijab as a deeply personal part of their identity at present as she is not wearing it at present; b) she does have some hesitations about wearing hijab as she is concerned about the image she will project wearing one. She stated herself that she does "not feel ready for it, yet". Can you project that hijab will become very important personally to you in the future if it is not now? Possibly, I do not know, but it does sound strange to me. Apologies if I am missing something. Perhaps, OP is marrying a Muslim and will be putting the headscarf on once they are married.

To answer nancycinatra: radical Catholics have not been recently involved in major acts of terrorism in the West, so I do not expect a Catholic or any other Christian in the West to wonder what others may think of their acts of faith. I do not intend to hurt anyone's feelings or beliefs - being from "that" part of the world, I have to go through special security screening each time I fly, so I have been affected by the realities of the modern world, too (even though "by proxy"). I have several friends that are Christian missionaries in Muslim countries - these people, on the other hand, have to think about how they are seen by the majority in their mission countries. Still, it does not stop them from wearing crosses or crucifixes, for example.

My bottom line is: if you strongly believe in something, go for it and do not apologise. If you wonder what others will think about your expression of your faith, then you might have to re-examine the reasons for your uncertainty.

It would be misleading to say that there will be no potential problems with wearing a headscarf, and I applaud to Anasazi for stating this.

On this note I exit this discussion.

 

[billypilgrim37]

However, the OP said that she will be putting hijab on in the future, and is curious how it will be seen by others. To me, it says that a) the OP does not appear to view hijab as a deeply personal part of their identity at present as she is not wearing it at present; b) she does have some hesitations about wearing hijab as she is concerned about the image she will project wearing one. She stated herself that she does "not feel ready for it, yet". Can you project that hijab will become very important personally to you in the future if it is not now?

Every Muslim woman I have known who wears hijab has gone through this process whereby she decides whether hijab is right for her. There are multiple parallels in western religions, particularly around various communion rituals in liturgical churches and even in the more emotive protestant denominations. And my God, a Jewish friend was griping the other day about some restaurant selling a kosher cheeseburger with soy cheese being an abomination to G-d or some nuttery like that. And since, as a vegetarian, I by default eat more kosher than he does, I kinda got a kick out of it.

Muslim women aren't bad if they don't wear hijab, and they are not bad if they do. The fact that she is not wearing at present seems not particularly relevant. She wants to know what she is getting into. I'm certainly no expert in being a Muslim woman, but I'd imagine her process of exploration is important, and it just doesn't seem particularly sensitive to imply so much flippancy about someone's religious journey.

Of course, I don't know the OP, just like I don't know any Muslim woman who wear a scarf with tight jeans and call it hijab.

 

[Rpre19]

.

 

[Rpre19]

I do not question anyone's motivations to perform any religious rites, be it going through their rosary, wearing hijab or wearing a cross on their necklace. And I agree with you that many Muslim women wear hijab because it is a deeply personal part of their identity as Muslim. However, the OP said that she will be putting hijab on in the future, and is curious how it will be seen by others. To me, it says that a) the OP does not appear to view hijab as a deeply personal part of their identity at present as she is not wearing it at present; b) she does have some hesitations about wearing hijab as she is concerned about the image she will project wearing one. She stated herself that she does "not feel ready for it, yet". Can you project that hijab will become very important personally to you in the future if it is not now? Possibly, I do not know, but it does sound strange to me. Apologies if I am missing something. Perhaps, OP is marrying a Muslim and will be putting the headscarf on once they are married.

To answer nancycinatra: radical Catholics have not been recently involved in major acts of terrorism in the West, so I do not expect a Catholic or any other Christian in the West to wonder what others may think of their acts of faith. I do not intend to hurt anyone's feelings or beliefs - being from "that" part of the world, I have to go through special security screening each time I fly, so I have been affected by the realities of the modern world, too (even though "by proxy"). I have several friends that are Christian missionaries in Muslim countries - these people, on the other hand, have to think about how they are seen by the majority in their mission countries. Still, it does not stop them from wearing crosses or crucifixes, for example.

My bottom line is: if you strongly believe in something, go for it and do not apologise. If you wonder what others will think about your expression of your faith, then you might have to re-examine the reasons for your uncertainty.

It would be misleading to say that there will be no potential problems with wearing a headscarf, and I applaud to Anasazi for stating this.

On this note I exit this discussion.

OP here...

Been away for a bit but I felt I had to respond to this post even if the respondent has exited the discussion.

a & b) The hijab is very important to me. As a convert, born in USA, the hijab is very very new to me. It is easy to say if something is importnat to you, just do it but please realize that wearing hijab requires your utmost confidence & preparedness to defend your choice, both to strangers and to family. This is because people will comment on it, ask questions (which is fine) & yes, at times, harass you. It happens to people I know daily. Since the hijab IS so important to me, I am not willing to just throw it on my head without real contemplation & la-di-da my way down the street. It is a complex process to change your whole outward appearance & it has many ramifications--for me it is better done gradually. PLease do not misunderstand me, a career in psychiatry is not going to dissuade me from the hijab--that is I am not questioning the possible responses in terms of making my decision to wear hijab--I simply would like to have an idea of other's experiences so I know what to expect. That was where my question of the faculty/program also came in. I think we can all agree that the practice of psychiatry takes place in the interpersonal space, & hijab does make a statement, whether the wearer wants it to or not (thats a whole other discussion), so it will affect the dynamics of dr-pt interactions. I want to be a good psychiatrist, so I want to learn to deal with this.

c) For the record , yes, I did marry a muslim man--but I met him over 2.5 yrs after I converted & one of the things I wanted from my future husband was someone that would accpet me wearing a hijab. Not all muslim men do.

one more note: c'mon you have got to realize that using the rosary in public is a bit more discreet & has less stigma attached to it (at least here in US) than wearing hijab,so I dont think thats a fair comparison. Just mho

sorry for the long post. You have all been so helpful & I think this became a very interesting discussion...& I just found out today I matched!!!! now just where?????

 

[TheWowEffect]

OP here...

Been away for a bit but I felt I had to respond to this post even if the respondent has exited the discussion.

a & b) The hijab is very important to me. As a convert, born in USA, the hijab is very very new to me. It is easy to say if something is importnat to you, just do it but please realize that wearing hijab requires your utmost confidence & preparedness to defend your choice, both to strangers and to family.

There goes the arguement that hijab is a cultural issue rather than a religious one.

I think the OP is going through a important phase in her life. This is a complex issue for her and I hope she makes a decision she is most comfortable with.

 

[nancysinatra]

one more note: c'mon you have got to realize that using the rosary in public is a bit more discreet & has less stigma attached to it (at least here in US) than wearing hijab,so I dont think thats a fair comparison. Just mho

No, of course they're totally different in real life--I realize that--but somewhere the conversation took a kind of abstract turn and it just didn't seem fair to me that people will have one standard for one religion and a different one for another. Yeah in real life it's much different from pure debate. I'm sorry though, because that's got nothing to do with your original question!

Congratulations on matching!

 

[Rpre19]

Nancysinatra: I agreed with your original statement about the rosary, actually. I was referering to what another poster mentioned about the reactions to outward expression to religion.

No doubt I know catholics who have gotten flack for their beliefs & I have friends who are hindu that have become defensive (their words) because they are misunderstood in their hometown where they are a minority
all I meant was that the hijab kinda incites some people...but certainly not all.

& thanks much woweffect

 

[Anasazi23]

Rpre,

I think the very fact that you seem so attuned to the possibilities, at least, will go a long way in helping you deal with this (inevitable at times) difficulty. I think it's folks who do these things with no understanding of it's place or the local culture that will have the most difficult time. Either that, or their ignorance will be bliss....but ultimately hold them back in the long run probably.

 

[Anasazi23]

By the way, is that picture in your avatar you?

Just an aside and since this is a psychiatry forum..........

I had wondered since the beginning how someone with histrionic hair can go from that extreme to that of the other: covering it completely so as not to draw attraction or looks from others.

I'm sure you have thoughts on this too. Will you continue to dye it red underneath?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Someone the other day was saying they were hesitant to post on SDN bc of aggressive posters but I told them NOT IN THE PSYCH FORUM!!

Don't worry, I think 'Sazi slipped something in the drinking water to keep everyone mellowed out.

 

[deleted77919]

Don't worry, I think 'Sazi slipped something in the drinking water to keep everyone mellowed out.

So 'Sazi was the one responsible for all this pharma in the drinking water business. </end derail>