Health Care Consulting at McKinsey

[bronx43]

you know i always wondered what a life as a consultant would be like?

Now i don't have any delusions as I hear these stories.

I am practicing physician making 350K + bennies. Although my life is not perfect and I hate my job when i am called in for a case, I am content with my decision to continue with medicine.

Why don't you guys finish med school and residency, make some money as physicians and then start a small business???

Thats the way I am going. Work for 15-20 yrs, save money, pay off debt, pay off house, start a business, fund 36k/yr for retirement, then quit when you have a sufficient nest egg saved up.

For me, its all about having the freedom to do what you want when you are in your mid 50s. I am perfectly ok with living off 100k/yr.

$crew consulting. stick with medicine, work/study hard, get into a good specialty, and you are much more likely to be successful.

I am 1.5 yrs out in practice. Have 13 wks of vacation. And there are many physicians that can have this lifestyle.

Go study medicine....ok.

It really depends what you want with your life. Are you content living a upper middle class lifestyle without too much worrying about clients, or the state of the economy? Or do you feel the need to "go big or go home?" I don't think many people would pick the analyst lifestyle over that of a practicing attending, but that really isn't the point of comparison.

Getting into Mckinsey opens up doors that could lead to bigger, better, and more lucrative opportunities later in your career. You'd have a great chance at getting into a top 7 MBA program. From there, you can solidify connections with the future leaders of the business world, and have a chance to be recruited by buy-side players in finance.

The other problem with medicine is the uncertainty in its financial future. A good specialty today might not be a good specialty tomorrow. Whether or not you think it's inevitable that reimbursements are going to be cut continuously or that (heaven forbid) the US adopts a single payor system, you have to admit that both scenarios are more than a fleeting whim at this point. Are you going to be happy when or if that happens? Are you going to be content making $150-200k in a stricter system? For those who are considering leaving medicine for the business world, those are questions that you have to seriously ask yourself.

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[New Vocab]

How does one go from undergraduate to McKinsey without sacrificing medical school eligibility?

I'm Canadian and would consider consulting if the opportunity existed that I could quit at a moment's notice in order to pursue medical school should I find the business of consulting not to my liking. By the way, what is it that consultants actually do? Do they do much speaking? I stutter and this is a hazard.

 

[DrJosephKim]

I'd encourage you to speak directly with some consultants so that you can get a solid idea of what they do. You can find many consultants on communities like LinkedIn.

Also, McKinsey offers the Insight program for APDs and BCG offers their Bridge to BCG. Both are good programs that will get you exposed to the opportunities in healthcare consulting.

 

[bronx43]

How does one go from undergraduate to McKinsey without sacrificing medical school eligibility?

I'm Canadian and would consider consulting if the opportunity existed that I could quit at a moment's notice in order to pursue medical school should I find the business of consulting not to my liking. By the way, what is it that consultants actually do? Do they do much speaking? I stutter and this is a hazard.

Consulting is not a deterrent for medical school. In fact, I would argue that working in business, then changing to medicine would make you a far more interesting and attractive candidate (assuming you had the scores to get in) than the average cookie-cutter, straight-out-of-biology-degree applicant that composes the majority of medical schools' matriculant pools. You can simply say that you thought you wanted to work in business, but after experiencing the lack of an intrinsic human connection in your work, realized that medicine and helping others is your true calling in life.

As far as talking in consulting, you definitely will do a fair share of talking to both your team as well as clients. Have you tried any therapies at all? I can sympathize with you, because I stuttered as a kid. Even though it went away on its own, I still remember the fear and frustration that comes with it.

Oh, and what do consultants do? Well, you basically go to CEOs of companies and tell them what they're doing wrong and how to fix it. That's the glamorized version, but it's the basic idea.

 

[New Vocab]

Consulting is not a deterrent for medical school. In fact, I would argue that working in business, then changing to medicine would make you a far more interesting and attractive candidate (assuming you had the scores to get in) than the average cookie-cutter, straight-out-of-biology-degree applicant that composes the majority of medical schools' matriculant pools. You can simply say that you thought you wanted to work in business, but after experiencing the lack of an intrinsic human connection in your work, realized that medicine and helping others is your true calling in life.

As far as talking in consulting, you definitely will do a fair share of talking to both your team as well as clients. Have you tried any therapies at all? I can sympathize with you, because I stuttered as a kid. Even though it went away on its own, I still remember the fear and frustration that comes with it.

Oh, and what do consultants do? Well, you basically go to CEOs of companies and tell them what they're doing wrong and how to fix it. That's the glamorized version, but it's the basic idea.

To digress a little bit, I'll say you have a great idea of what it's like to be a stutterer. Stuttering during adolescent and young adult years can be torturous for anyone. All my life I've had to deal with the fear and frustration that comes with it and, for some reason, it just hasn't gone away. I haven't had any therapy and I'm getting older. This might be my last chance. I think the main problem will come with employment because stuttering can leave a sour taste in the mouth for most and it doesn't bode well in careers where you typically have to function in a high pressure speaking environment like I assume consulting will be.

To get back to the consulting topic, I'd really like to know how to get into consulting. From what I've read, it seems harder to get into McKinsey than medical school.

 

[bronx43]

To digress a little bit, I'll say you have a great idea of what it's like to be a stutterer. Stuttering during adolescent and young adult years can be torturous for anyone. All my life I've had to deal with the fear and frustration that comes with it and, for some reason, it just hasn't gone away. I haven't had any therapy and I'm getting older. This might be my last chance. I think the main problem will come with employment because stuttering can leave a sour taste in the mouth for most and it doesn't bode well in careers where you typically have to function in a high pressure speaking environment like I assume consulting will be.

To get back to the consulting topic, I'd really like to know how to get into consulting. From what I've read, it seems harder to get into McKinsey than medical school.

Yeah, I would definitely do or try anything that would improve stuttering, because even medicine requires a lot of speaking. Though I have met a few doctors with speech impediments and they were doing fine, I can't even imagine how much crap they must have gone through during training.

As far as consulting, it'll depend on your current situation. Are you already in medical school? Are you an undergrad? If so, what did you study and did you graduate?

 

[New Vocab]

Yeah, I would definitely do or try anything that would improve stuttering, because even medicine requires a lot of speaking. Though I have met a few doctors with speech impediments and they were doing fine, I can't even imagine how much crap they must have gone through during training.

As far as consulting, it'll depend on your current situation. Are you already in medical school? Are you an undergrad? If so, what did you study and did you graduate?

I'm in undergrad and I'm studying Cognitive Science and Economics.

I'll look into the stuttering thing. Sadly, all signs point to it still being with me ten years from now. I just have to learn to deal with it. The worst part is knowing doors in the business world are closed to me prematurely because I can't do much about something I was born with. I mean, otherwise, I'm a great listener and, dare I say it, excellent speaker.

 

[bronx43]

I'm in undergrad and I'm studying Cognitive Science and Economics.

I'll look into the stuttering thing. Sadly, all signs point to it still being with me ten years from now. I just have to learn to deal with it. The worst part is knowing doors in the business world are closed to me prematurely because I can't do much about something I was born with. I mean, otherwise, I'm a great listener and, dare I say it, excellent speaker.

You should check with your college's recruiting office to see if McKinsey, Bain, or BCG recruit at your school. The big 3 firms mostly recruit at the prestigious schools, so if you attend a less well known institution, it might be a bit more difficult to get an interview. I would definitely say that getting a job at these 3 firms is more difficult than getting into medical school (A medical school, not ALL medical schools.) I've met some questionable people in medical school, but I've never met a questionable employee or ex-employee of McKinsey, Bain, or BCG.

 

[New Vocab]

You should check with your college's recruiting office to see if McKinsey, Bain, or BCG recruit at your school. The big 3 firms mostly recruit at the prestigious schools, so if you attend a less well known institution, it might be a bit more difficult to get an interview. I would definitely say that getting a job at these 3 firms is more difficult than getting into medical school (A medical school, not ALL medical schools.) I've met some questionable people in medical school, but I've never met a questionable employee or ex-employee of McKinsey, Bain, or BCG.

I think I have to get a MBA and/or MD from a prestigious school (think Harvard and Yale) or I have to get a JD from one of the top schools.

 

[bronx43]

I think I have to get a MBA and/or MD from a prestigious school (think Harvard and Yale) or I have to get a JD from one of the top schools.

PhD would work also. Actually, a PhD in something like economics or industrial operations would make you a better candidate for consulting than a MD or JD.

 

[PranBobbyJohnny]

lol ooops

 

[radiodoc99]

Excellent advice. Working in banking or consulting long term is not as fun as working as a doctor. Unless you see yourself as a corporate executive, you are better off working as a doctor and then taking administrative roles in the healthcare business or starting your own business. Study medicine. Boards and wards.

 

[bronx43]

Excellent advice. Working in banking or consulting long term is not as fun as working as a doctor. Unless you see yourself as a corporate executive, you are better off working as a doctor and then taking administrative roles in the healthcare business or starting your own business. Study medicine. Boards and wards.

Great point. It really depends what you want to do. You can't really go wrong being a BC MD. If you've got good administrative and/or entrepreneurial sense, there are plenty of opportunities later on. But, if you're truly interested in corporate managing, then the best course of action would be MD into consulting into corporate.

 

[Euphrates]

I think I have to get a MBA and/or MD from a prestigious school (think Harvard and Yale) or I have to get a JD from one of the top schools.

I'm assuming IMG's ( e.g Ross or SGU grads) are not highly regarded by the Big 3 consulting firms?

Also would an MD/MBA be seen as an asset for the McK APD program, as opposed to a standalone MD?

 

[bronx43]

I'm assuming IMG's ( e.g Ross or SGU grads) are not highly regarded by the Big 3 consulting firms?

Also would an MD/MBA be seen as an asset for the McK APD program, as opposed to a standalone MD?

IMG's would definitely be at a disadvantage when applying to a big 3 firm. Consulting firms usually want prestigious names backing their employees since the industry is so reliant on the perception of capability.

I don't think a MBA along with a IMG MD would do much either. In fact, a non-top 7 MBA without work experience would be worth little to nothing.

 

[Euphrates]

IMG's would definitely be at a disadvantage when applying to a big 3 firm. Consulting firms usually want prestigious names backing their employees since the industry is so reliant on the perception of capability.

I don't think a MBA along with a IMG MD would do much either. In fact, a non-top 7 MBA without work experience would be worth little to nothing.

Thank you for your response. I truly appreciate it.

I would imagine that the salary at the Big 3 consulting companies is around $150,000. And the average consulting company, the salary is around $70,000? There seems to be a myriad of consulting companies around, how hard would it be to land a consulting position at say, a non-Mck/BCG/Bain firm?

And what is the "best fit" for an MD (e.g healthcare consulting, management consulting, physician consulting, etc)....? I'm guessing, perhaps, healthcare consulting?

 

[bronx43]

Thank you for your response. I truly appreciate it.

I would imagine that the salary at the Big 3 consulting companies is around $150,000. And the average consulting company, the salary is around $70,000? There seems to be a myriad of consulting companies around, how hard would it be to land a consulting position at say, a non-Mck/BCG/Bain firm?

And what is the "best fit" for an MD (e.g healthcare consulting, management consulting, physician consulting, etc)....? I'm guessing, perhaps, healthcare consulting?

No problem, man. Always glad to help someone who is interested in management consulting.

Salaries at the big 3 firms actually don't deviate much from the rest of the field. There might be a 10-20k different in bonus between an associate at McK and one at Diamond, but average performers at both firms should be able to net $140-160k. However, this is management consulting. I can't say with confidence how much HR or IT consultants make at the associate level.

Landing a position in a non-MBB firm would be considerably easier. However, I don't know of a single non-MBB firm that would start a MD off at the post-MBA position (associate equivalent). My contacts in some of the other firms say they usually hire APD candidates at a senior analyst level with a fast track to associate. They basically keep an eye on you for the first year, and if you perform well, you can jump directly to associate. Senior analyst pay is usually around 90k.

Best fit for a MD would be health care consulting, naturally. There are really really small boutique firms in health care consulting that do really specialized work. I wouldn't recommend going to one of those, if your plan is to open up doors in other areas in corporate. Management consulting firms with health care divisions are usually the best way to go for that. After a few years, if you hate consulting (many do), you can go get your MBA, jump ship to corporate, join a startup, or if you're really good/lucky, you might be able to land a job in finance (usually PE). In many ways, consulting is like a job equivalent of an extension of undergrad.
Hope that helps.

 

[Euphrates]

No problem, man. Always glad to help someone who is interested in management consulting.

Salaries at the big 3 firms actually don't deviate much from the rest of the field. There might be a 10-20k different in bonus between an associate at McK and one at Diamond, but average performers at both firms should be able to net $140-160k. However, this is management consulting. I can't say with confidence how much HR or IT consultants make at the associate level.

Landing a position in a non-MBB firm would be considerably easier. However, I don't know of a single non-MBB firm that would start a MD off at the post-MBA position (associate equivalent). My contacts in some of the other firms say they usually hire APD candidates at a senior analyst level with a fast track to associate. They basically keep an eye on you for the first year, and if you perform well, you can jump directly to associate. Senior analyst pay is usually around 90k.

Best fit for a MD would be health care consulting, naturally. There are really really small boutique firms in health care consulting that do really specialized work. I wouldn't recommend going to one of those, if your plan is to open up doors in other areas in corporate. Management consulting firms with health care divisions are usually the best way to go for that. After a few years, if you hate consulting (many do), you can go get your MBA, jump ship to corporate, join a startup, or if you're really good/lucky, you might be able to land a job in finance (usually PE). In many ways, consulting is like a job equivalent of an extension of undergrad.
Hope that helps.

An excellent and truly informative post!! I am grateful to you for your help.
It seems that I would begin at the senior analyst level...

 

[Taurus]

I did consulting for several years prior to med school. Unless you're talented in business (good communication skills, amazing personality, great butt kisser), I would continue with my medical training instead of going into that field. Because if you don't possess good business skills, you won't go very far up the ladder and neither will your paycheck. If the economy hits a bump, you'll likely be laid off. At least in medicine, a practicing physician is almost never unemployed.

 

[bronx43]

I did consulting for several years prior to med school. Unless you're talented in business (good communication skills, amazing personality, great butt kisser), I would continue with my medical training instead of going into that field. Because if you don't possess good business skills, you won't go very far up the ladder and neither will your paycheck. If the economy hits a bump, you'll likely be laid off. At least in medicine, a practicing physician is almost never unemployed.

Which firm were you?

I agree that consulting takes a different set of skills than medicine, and it's far less structured as far as your career is concerned. The economy plays a factor, also, which isn't really the case for medicine. However, I don't know how often management consultants get laid off during downturns in the economy. A good portion of our BBA class went into consulting, and I still haven't heard of a single person getting laid off during these past 3 years. Many have left by their own volition - PE, MBA, corporate, lateral hires, etc. I suspect that the way MC firms are structured, they change their hiring tendencies before they actually lay off experienced employees. And the high turn over rate always guarantees this flexibility.

 

[phospho]

wow, what a thread... an eye opener to say the least...

 

[Euphrates]

Another question regarding consulting:

As an MD pursuing a senior analyst position in consulting, how do you override the "must have 5+ years experience with --------etc". Are you exempt from having the necessary skill-set by virtue of being a Medical Doctor (MD/DO)?

 

[avatarftw]

a

 

[bronx43]

Another question regarding consulting:

As an MD pursuing a senior analyst position in consulting, how do you override the "must have 5+ years experience with --------etc". Are you exempt from having the necessary skill-set by virtue of being a Medical Doctor (MD/DO)?

Yeah, an MD entering a management consulting firm would not be placed under the same expectations as an experienced analyst. However, to move up to associate, you have to show you have associate-level aptitude. So, theoretically, it's more difficult for a MD senior analyst to jump to associate than it is for a standard 3rd year analyst.

 

[bronx43]

In your opinion, is it harder for DO's to get these consulting jobs than MD's? Thanks in advance.

I'm not sure how big the difference is, but I would definitely contend that DO's would be at a disadvantage when applying to a firm. Like I said, a big part of management consulting is the image of prestige and competence, so the more prestigious your institution (or degree), the better off you will be.

 

[notinkansas]

A few years ago (when I was in my 3rd year of GS residency before I quit) I applied to the McKinsey Insight program. It didn't go anywhere. I figured I'd need MBA and have periodically looked into options to get one without increasing my already massive student loan debt. Sadly, I can't seem to find a way.

Recently, a friend of mine who works for a big 4 accounting firm told me that a contact of hers is looking for someone with a medical background to work in this firm's health care consulting arm. After several rounds of emails, I will have two telephone interviews with this firm next week. The health care area is a subset of practice management for hosptials, and is related to a project I worked on (and published) during a research year.

Any insight on level of salary for consultants in an accounting firm-are they in the ballpark of those metioned above? Tips on how not to make a fool of myself in the interview? Should I expect
case questions?

I'm cautiously optimisitc at this point....

 

[bronx43]

A few years ago (when I was in my 3rd year of GS residency before I quit) I applied to the McKinsey Insight program. It didn't go anywhere. I figured I'd need MBA and have periodically looked into options to get one without increasing my already massive student loan debt. Sadly, I can't seem to find a way.

Recently, a friend of mine who works for a big 4 accounting firm told me that a contact of hers is looking for someone with a medical background to work in this firm's health care consulting arm. After several rounds of emails, I will have two telephone interviews with this firm next week. The health care area is a subset of practice management for hosptials, and is related to a project I worked on (and published) during a research year.

Any insight on level of salary for consultants in an accounting firm-are they in the ballpark of those metioned above? Tips on how not to make a fool of myself in the interview? Should I expect
case questions?

I'm cautiously optimisitc at this point....

Hmm, I've actually got no contacts in any of the big accouting firms, but I would think that Deloitte would have comparable pay to the other management consulting firms.

When you applied to McKinsey, did you land an interview? And did they give you feedback to why you weren't hired?

 

[notinkansas]

It was the Insight program I applied for (the 2 day experience for APD's so that you can get an experience about what consultants do). I sent in all my application materials. I didn't get any feedback. I don't even recall getting a rejection- I just never got invited to any of the next steps (interview, etc). They do this in July every year and it was a few years ago. That's what so frustrating- I have no contacts, no inside info, no assistance on how to spin my background to prove i can do the job. (I know I can, proving it is a different story....)

 

[bronx43]

It was the Insight program I applied for (the 2 day experience for APD's so that you can get an experience about what consultants do). I sent in all my application materials. I didn't get any feedback. I don't even recall getting a rejection- I just never got invited to any of the next steps (interview, etc). They do this in July every year and it was a few years ago. That's what so frustrating- I have no contacts, no inside info, no assistance on how to spin my background to prove i can do the job. (I know I can, proving it is a different story....)

Oh, you still should have applied to the company, even if you didn't get an invite to their Insight program. I know that BCG has their own version called the Bridge to BCG, and some APDs not chosen for this program has gotten hired every year. Another thing with MBB is that they want a prestigious institution to your name. If your medical school wasn't well known, then your undergrad better be top 20. And once you get an interview, you have to nail the cases. They won't give any leeway for you just because you weren't BBA or MBA.

 

[blueswirl67]

A very eye-opening and frank thread! I'm wondering if I could get some advise from those that worked in consulting on what my angle could be in terms of getting into the likes of McK.

I'm currently enrolled in a top MPH program but my background is not medical -- I have a BA and graduated less than 4 years ago, which would put me into the Analyst slot at McK. They talk a lot about bachelor's degrees, MBAs, advanced professionals, etc. and I feel like that "non-business masters" really gets lost. They actually recently came to my school to hold an info session but it seemed like they were really speaking to MDs (the consultants that came out were in fact all either MDs or MBAs). I think I am seriously interested in doing 2-3 years to kick start my career and to get the problem solving skills...just not sure where I stand with my background.

Any pointers?

 

[RAMPA]

A very eye-opening and frank thread! I'm wondering if I could get some advise from those that worked in consulting on what my angle could be in terms of getting into the likes of McK.

I'm currently enrolled in a top MPH program but my background is not medical -- I have a BA and graduated less than 4 years ago, which would put me into the Analyst slot at McK. They talk a lot about bachelor's degrees, MBAs, advanced professionals, etc. and I feel like that "non-business masters" really gets lost. They actually recently came to my school to hold an info session but it seemed like they were really speaking to MDs (the consultants that came out were in fact all either MDs or MBAs). I think I am seriously interested in doing 2-3 years to kick start my career and to get the problem solving skills...just not sure where I stand with my background.

Any pointers?

are you doing an MPH in health policy & management? consider doing a 1yr fellowship in hospital administration at a prestigious medical center and then afterward apply to a big consulting firm or a firm focused on health care/bio/pharma. you could do your summer internship working for a non-profit that deals with health care for rural or inner city, etc.

 

[blueswirl67]

are you doing an MPH in health policy & management? consider doing a 1yr fellowship in hospital administration at a prestigious medical center and then afterward apply to a big consulting firm or a firm focused on health care/bio/pharma. you could do your summer internship working for a non-profit that deals with health care for rural or inner city, etc.

Thanks! I am doing health management and taking policy classes as well. Do you suggest a fellowship because the MPH is insufficient experience? Do you think it would be sufficient to work as a generalist consultant, not necessarily within the healthcare industry?

 

[arrhythmia7]

I just wanted to add that there are a ton of other great consulting firms that will get you just as far as McKinsey, namely: Bain, BCG, Booz & Co (not Booz Allen Hamilton). That's not to mention the healthcare specific firms out there such as Parthenon Group, SG2, ZS Associates. Some times it pays to not put all your eggs in one basket.

 

[kauldron26]

I just wanted to add that there are a ton of other great consulting firms that will get you just as far as McKinsey, namely: Bain, BCG, Booz & Co (not Booz Allen Hamilton). That's not to mention the healthcare specific firms out there such as Parthenon Group, SG2, ZS Associates. Some times it pays to not put all your eggs in one basket.

Thanks for this post. Im finishing my MPH in December and I will have 3 years healthcare experience. Im currently applying to admin fellowships but im also looking to land a new job for January. If you guys have any other insights on healthcare firms please post. I thought i would add Mathematica to the list.

 

[bronx43]

A very eye-opening and frank thread! I'm wondering if I could get some advise from those that worked in consulting on what my angle could be in terms of getting into the likes of McK.

I'm currently enrolled in a top MPH program but my background is not medical -- I have a BA and graduated less than 4 years ago, which would put me into the Analyst slot at McK. They talk a lot about bachelor's degrees, MBAs, advanced professionals, etc. and I feel like that "non-business masters" really gets lost. They actually recently came to my school to hold an info session but it seemed like they were really speaking to MDs (the consultants that came out were in fact all either MDs or MBAs). I think I am seriously interested in doing 2-3 years to kick start my career and to get the problem solving skills...just not sure where I stand with my background.

Any pointers?

You would definitely be starting out at the analyst position, but I'm honestly not sure what a fellowship in MPH would do for you. Unless you're really high up in health care administration, your value to a consulting firm won't be your expertise - they hire industry experts for those roles. You will add your value through your analytical abilities. So, if you want a job with McK, talk to their recruiter, and apply. Make sure you study a lot of cases and get the whole structured thinking down. That'll matter A LOT more than whether or not you have a fellowship in MPH.

Also, Arrhythmia is right about other firms. ZS is a great firm for health care consulting. Booz is ok. You can take a look at AT Kearney too, as they're on the upswing in the industry.

 

[notinkansas]

Accepted a pretty nice offer to work in the consulting division of the accounting firm mentioned above. They have a specific health care consulting group, that's what they hired me for. Note that I got this without MBA, having attended a state medical school, and without being grilled with business case studies during the interview process.

They know I have no business experience, and that i will have a big learning curve, and they are OK with that. They do hire clinical people for this division knowing we will need to learn how to do the job.

I will not name the specific firm, so please don't pm me about that. I'm posting here to say that it can be done.

I start in a couple weeks. I will try to post periodically about how it's going.

 

[bronx43]

Accepted a pretty nice offer to work in the consulting division of the accounting firm mentioned above. They have a specific health care consulting group, that's what they hired me for. Note that I got this without MBA, having attended a state medical school, and without being grilled with business case studies during the interview process.

They know I have no business experience, and that i will have a big learning curve, and they are OK with that. They do hire clinical people for this division knowing we will need to learn how to do the job.

I will not name the specific firm, so please don't pm me about that. I'm posting here to say that it can be done.

I start in a couple weeks. I will try to post periodically about how it's going.

Thanks for the information, kansas. It's good to have this information on here, so students can see what options they have should they pursue a non-clinical job post-medical school.

Do you mind my asking what position you are starting at? Associate (post-MBA equivalent)? Or analyst?

 

[notinkansas]

They are actually starting me at Manager in order to justify paying me close to what I have been making in my moonlighting job (a step above Sr Analyst). They want me to move up the ranks pretty fast.

Start next month. It's going to be an interesting ride.

 

[bronx43]

They are actually starting me at Manager in order to justify paying me close to what I have been making in my moonlighting job (a step above Sr Analyst). They want me to move up the ranks pretty fast.

Start next month. It's going to be an interesting ride.

Oh, so it's the equivalent of an associate position at any other consulting firm. I'm also assuming they adhere to industry standard as far as salary, low 100s with a 10-15% bonus?

 

[Docafella]

Hello Everyone,

I'm new to this forum and new to SDN in general.

I am a second year medical student at #20 medical school.
I have a bachelors degree in Management with a concentration in finance.

I have always had a passion for health systems and the science of healthcare delivery. With the recent passing of the healthcare bill this interest has profoundly increased.

I am strongly considering applying for a position at Mckinsey after graduation from medical school.

My Question: What is the best way to go about positioning my-self for having the greatest chance of landing a job at Mckinsey? Do I need to get an MBA? Start a company? Essentially, what should I be doing to keep this career path open? Thanks

 

[prominence]

Any updates on your new position?

They are actually starting me at Manager in order to justify paying me close to what I have been making in my moonlighting job (a step above Sr Analyst). They want me to move up the ranks pretty fast.

Start next month. It's going to be an interesting ride.

 

[HarryGary]

McKinsey consulting is total waste for an MD, unless they somehow got themselves banned from practicing medicine, even then I would rather teach classes at a caribbean med school.

lets say with bonuses, a Mckinsey MD consultant yanks down 200, working probably 50-60 hrs a week....that is CRAP. that is manure, pure and simple.

You would would make more working with overtime as a veteran sheriff deputy, a prison guard or nursing manager where I am....all of which doesnt require med school.

Working at McKinsey isn't necessarily a waste. A lot of people use their two years as a consultant as a stepping stone to another job. It's kind of like a paid MBA.

 

[notinkansas]

Big 4 consulting update

So far, so good. I have a HUGE learning curve, not having any business experience. But the area I'm working in (part of revenue cycle) is known for hiring people with clinical experience, not business experience- and are willing to teach.

On the positive side, it's wonderful to be working with smart, motivated people with a good work ethic. (the vast majority of people I've met here fall into this category). The travel is tiring, for sure. But for the most part, I'm staying in much nicer hotels than I would on my own and have gotten to the point where I enjoy getting room service. And it is nice to feel like my contribution is valued, rather than just being another cog in the wheel. I get the sense that over the long haul, the compensation will be better than what I could hope to achieve in medicine. Also, even though it's definitely not a M-F 8-5 gig, there is a lot more flexibility and self determination in how I structure my work. And I get to sleep without a pager EVERY NIGHT!!

 

[abcabc1]

oint:

People in consulting aren't as smart as they think they are

This is probably true in every profession. Except the hedge fund I work at -- those people are super smart. In my experience, consulting had a whole faux-intellectual air about it. Projects are called "studies," consultants use fancy frameworks developed at HBS, regressions were run, etc. It's overdone. Much of this is simply a way to justify the massive fees firms charge to clients. Now don't get me wrong, you will think -- a lot, but you won't necessarily find that the thinking gets you to some eureka moment. In my experience, the consultants that were most successful were the super-organized managers -- NOT the super bright students.

This is the aspect to management/strategy consulting (and those who work in the field) that turns me off (and others I have spoken to).

Truth to be told, I don't like the term 'smart' b/c there is no way to uniformly measure it and so many supposedly 'smart' people have done so many stupid things with such horrendous outcomes (politicians, many of whom went to Universities that require being smart to get in).

I just get the vibe that the MC industry thinks so highly of itself as being 'smarter' than the rest of us. In fields like I-Banking, HF, Trading, etc one's performance can be measured by the fees you bring in, how much you profit/(lose) for the trading desk, etc. In MC, how does the client track how effective the consultancy was and how does the consultancy decide which member of the team added most to a good or bad outcome based on the firm's advice? The firms must be doing something right if so many clients are willing to pay the (supposedly outrageous) fees, but it's harder to make sense of from the outside looking in.

 

[TDAlmighty]

I want to repost something I put in another thread because I think it reinforces others' points.

"This is truly a matter of apples and oranges and I would not make this decision without researching heavily and talking with those that have gone before you.

Before I get to that, lets get one thing straight. To get a job at McKinsey straight out of med school, you need to have one or more of the following:
1. Gone to a top ivy league school or service academy for undergrad
2. Be going to a top medical school
3. Alumni from your medical school are at McKinsey
4. You have serious connections
Without one of these items you are likely to not be hired and would likely be wasting your time thinking about this option.

Once there, McKinsey consulting is very much an up or out mentality like someone else mentioned. More than 50% of people are gone after three years (not official, but common-knowledge among the consultant industry). Granted many of these leave for great opportunities, but many also leave because of the lifestyle which includes week after week of being away from home and 60-90 hour work weeks. I personally know ex-McKinsey guys that have done well and I know others that have struggled. For your own evidence, search McKinsey as past employer on Linked-in and find your own examples.

If you choose McKinsey you will get put through a meat grinder, very different than residency, but no less intense. From my impression of family members that have been through residency, the main difference is that in residency you just have to make it through and you are virtually guaranteed to have a job waiting for you at the other end. As a doctor going to McKinsey, if you attempt to "just make it through" you will be wasting your time because you will NOT see the outcomes that made it worth taking the risk.

Another subtle difference is that in medicine, doctors are put into leadership roles that are more substantive than the ones you will play in consulting. Also doctors are masters of science and helping people, consultants are masters at business and helping companies compete. As a consultant, more often than not you will be recommending lay-offs/restructurings at the end of your study.

Lastly doctors can get away with being a little weird, goofy, or otherwise just themselves. McKinsey consultants must never let their guard down and must always carry the McKinsey prestige badge with them 24/7.

The factors change a little bit in my opinion if you did an MD/MBA or MD/MPA, because your McKinsey exit opportunities may be wider. As a straight MD you better have a very narrow focus on what you are trying to achieve by going to McKinsey or you could get yourself in a situation where you hate it and have few fallback options.

However, I think that consulting may be a good option for "burnt-out" doctors that have been practicing for several years, especially if they were involved with pharma/device companies or hospital administration. You will not be forced into the "meat-grinder" as much because you are more senior and you will have fallback options. But again, you better know somebody to get hired at this level.
Also I can say with relative confidence that if you just received your MD (no residency) and are working at a consulting firm other than McKinsey, Bain, or BCG than you are taking a HUGE risk."

One last point: if you have NOT done a residency and you are considering a firm other than McKinsey, Bain, or BCG -- in my opinion that is a HUGE risk with low probability of payoff > traditional medicine

 

[abcabc1]

I want to repost something I put in another thread because I think it reinforces others' points.

"This is truly a matter of apples and oranges and I would not make this decision without researching heavily and talking with those that have gone before you.

Before I get to that, lets get one thing straight. To get a job at McKinsey straight out of med school, you need to have one or more of the following:
1. Gone to a top ivy league school or service academy for undergrad
2. Be going to a top medical school
3. Alumni from your medical school are at McKinsey
4. You have serious connections
Without one of these items you are likely to not be hired and would likely be wasting your time thinking about this option.

Once there, McKinsey consulting is very much an up or out mentality like someone else mentioned. More than 50% of people are gone after three years (not official, but common-knowledge among the consultant industry). Granted many of these leave for great opportunities, but many also leave because of the lifestyle which includes week after week of being away from home and 60-90 hour work weeks. I personally know ex-McKinsey guys that have done well and I know others that have struggled. For your own evidence, search McKinsey as past employer on Linked-in and find your own examples.

If you choose McKinsey you will get put through a meat grinder, very different than residency, but no less intense. From my impression of family members that have been through residency, the main difference is that in residency you just have to make it through and you are virtually guaranteed to have a job waiting for you at the other end. As a doctor going to McKinsey, if you attempt to "just make it through" you will be wasting your time because you will NOT see the outcomes that made it worth taking the risk.

Another subtle difference is that in medicine, doctors are put into leadership roles that are more substantive than the ones you will play in consulting. Also doctors are masters of science and helping people, consultants are masters at business and helping companies compete. As a consultant, more often than not you will be recommending lay-offs/restructurings at the end of your study.

Lastly doctors can get away with being a little weird, goofy, or otherwise just themselves. McKinsey consultants must never let their guard down and must always carry the McKinsey prestige badge with them 24/7.

The factors change a little bit in my opinion if you did an MD/MBA or MD/MPA, because your McKinsey exit opportunities may be wider. As a straight MD you better have a very narrow focus on what you are trying to achieve by going to McKinsey or you could get yourself in a situation where you hate it and have few fallback options.

However, I think that consulting may be a good option for "burnt-out" doctors that have been practicing for several years, especially if they were involved with pharma/device companies or hospital administration. You will not be forced into the "meat-grinder" as much because you are more senior and you will have fallback options. But again, you better know somebody to get hired at this level.
Also I can say with relative confidence that if you just received your MD (no residency) and are working at a consulting firm other than McKinsey, Bain, or BCG than you are taking a HUGE risk."

One last point: if you have NOT done a residency and you are considering a firm other than McKinsey, Bain, or BCG -- in my opinion that is a HUGE risk with low probability of payoff > traditional medicine

This post is spot on. People who are frustrated with Medicine (and I can totally see why) must realize that, while their skills and effort have value towards practicing as a Physician, this matters LITTLE (if at all) in the more traditional employment market. As much as they hate Medicine, they must realize that it's going to be MUCH harder to go into consulting, banking or something else than staying in Medicine. If you hate practicing enough, you should consider leaving (esp if your debt burden is not astronomical) but realize that the grass only LOOKS greener when it is, in fact, not-as-green.

It's not rare for this to happen but almost all of the Physicians whose profiles I have seen at McKinsey, Bain or investment companies (like Orbimed) were MD/MBA graduates from top 10 (usually top 5 ) Med/MBA programs. Besides this, many of them had (business) relevant experience, education and knowledge BEFORE doing the MD or MD/MBA. The importance of this cannot be understated; many such people appear to have gone into Med School knowing they would not practice in the end but just wanting the Education (and, perhaps, the title).

I'd estimate that getting into Med School and earning a Dermatology Residency is MUCH easier than going to Med School and joining a firm like McKinsey. As the above post implies, someone who completes a Derm Residency is less likely to be fired/unemployed and worrying about finding their next position than a practicing Dermatologist. I also agree that 2-3 Y of experience at McKinsey looks good on a resume but does not guarantee employment after leaving McK. There are a LOT of talented people in the labor market. Think VERY carefully before making a decision like this.

 

[Taurus]

I want to repost something I put in another thread because I think it reinforces others' points.

"This is truly a matter of apples and oranges and I would not make this decision without researching heavily and talking with those that have gone before you.

Before I get to that, lets get one thing straight. To get a job at McKinsey straight out of med school, you need to have one or more of the following:
1. Gone to a top ivy league school or service academy for undergrad
2. Be going to a top medical school
3. Alumni from your medical school are at McKinsey
4. You have serious connections
Without one of these items you are likely to not be hired and would likely be wasting your time thinking about this option.

Once there, McKinsey consulting is very much an up or out mentality like someone else mentioned. More than 50% of people are gone after three years (not official, but common-knowledge among the consultant industry). Granted many of these leave for great opportunities, but many also leave because of the lifestyle which includes week after week of being away from home and 60-90 hour work weeks. I personally know ex-McKinsey guys that have done well and I know others that have struggled. For your own evidence, search McKinsey as past employer on Linked-in and find your own examples.

If you choose McKinsey you will get put through a meat grinder, very different than residency, but no less intense. From my impression of family members that have been through residency, the main difference is that in residency you just have to make it through and you are virtually guaranteed to have a job waiting for you at the other end. As a doctor going to McKinsey, if you attempt to "just make it through" you will be wasting your time because you will NOT see the outcomes that made it worth taking the risk.

Another subtle difference is that in medicine, doctors are put into leadership roles that are more substantive than the ones you will play in consulting. Also doctors are masters of science and helping people, consultants are masters at business and helping companies compete. As a consultant, more often than not you will be recommending lay-offs/restructurings at the end of your study.

Lastly doctors can get away with being a little weird, goofy, or otherwise just themselves. McKinsey consultants must never let their guard down and must always carry the McKinsey prestige badge with them 24/7.

The factors change a little bit in my opinion if you did an MD/MBA or MD/MPA, because your McKinsey exit opportunities may be wider. As a straight MD you better have a very narrow focus on what you are trying to achieve by going to McKinsey or you could get yourself in a situation where you hate it and have few fallback options.

However, I think that consulting may be a good option for "burnt-out" doctors that have been practicing for several years, especially if they were involved with pharma/device companies or hospital administration. You will not be forced into the "meat-grinder" as much because you are more senior and you will have fallback options. But again, you better know somebody to get hired at this level.
Also I can say with relative confidence that if you just received your MD (no residency) and are working at a consulting firm other than McKinsey, Bain, or BCG than you are taking a HUGE risk."

One last point: if you have NOT done a residency and you are considering a firm other than McKinsey, Bain, or BCG -- in my opinion that is a HUGE risk with low probability of payoff > traditional medicine

Having done management consulting prior to medical school, I can tell you that this post is spot on. It is extremely difficult to get into McKinsey and even more impossible to do well. Most people don't last more than a few years because of the constant travel and long hours. The work isn't that interesting either. You are far better off finishing a residency and becoming an attending.

 

[abcabc1]

Having done management consulting prior to medical school, I can tell you that this post is spot on. It is extremely difficult to get into McKinsey and even more impossible to do well. Most people don't last more than a few years because of the constant travel and long hours. The work isn't that interesting either. You are far better off finishing a residency and becoming an attending.

In the long run, who would you say ends up in a better position, in terms of finances (median, not mean)? Someone who completes a Residency and practices as a Physician or someone who enters the Management Consulting world post-MBA?

I've heard that I-Banking LOOKS a lot rosier than it is. One research analyst sent me a document saying that, of those who enter I-Banking at the Associate level (the 2nd from the bottom, often post-MBA), 5.23% make it to Managing Director and up. I believe it was <1% for those who enter at the Analyst level. It wouldn't surprise me if MC is similar.

 

[Taurus]

In the long run, who would you say ends up in a better position, in terms of finances (median, not mean)? Someone who completes a Residency and practices as a Physician or someone who enters the Management Consulting world post-MBA?

I've heard that I-Banking LOOKS a lot rosier than it is. One research analyst sent me a document saying that, of those who enter I-Banking at the Associate level (the 2nd from the bottom, often post-MBA), 5.23% make it to Managing Director and up. I believe it was <1% for those who enter at the Analyst level. It wouldn't surprise me if MC is similar.

For the average person, a medical career is more financially rewarding.

For the superstars (tall, good looks, supersmart, great personality, etc), investment banking, biglaw, Hollywood, NFL, NBA, etc are more financially rewarding.

I think that the problem is that most people think that they are better than "average" and that they will be that special exception who will make it big at McKinsey, investment banking, etc. I hate to break it to people but you're probably average, but because physicians spend so much of their young lives in school/training they don't appreciate that. Step outside of medicine for a little while and you'll realize that it takes a lot more than being able to recite the causes of B12 deficiency to do well in business. In business, the softer skills like leadership, communications, sales, etc. are more important to do well than analytical skills. The Catch-22 is that most people can't really measure the strength of their soft skills and likelihood of career success until they get a position like at McKinsey's. Once you get it, you may regret it and wish you were back in medicine.

 

[abcabc1]

For the average person, a medical career is more financially rewarding.

For the superstars (tall, good looks, supersmart, great personality, etc), investment banking, biglaw, Hollywood, NFL, NBA, etc are more financially rewarding.

I think that the problem is that most people think that they are better than "average" and that they will be that special exception who will make it big at McKinsey, investment banking, etc. I hate to break it to people but you're probably average, but because physicians spend so much of their young lives in school/training they don't appreciate that. Step outside of medicine for a little while and you'll realize that it takes a lot more than being able to recite the causes of B12 deficiency to do well in business. In business, the softer skills like leadership, communications, sales, etc. are more important to do well than analytical skills. The Catch-22 is that most people can't really measure the strength of their soft skills and likelihood of career success until they get a position like at McKinsey's. Once you get it, you may regret it and wish you were back in medicine.

I'm not surprised with your assessment. Based on the numbers, there are a LOT more talented people outside of Medicine than there are in Medicine and many people in the Medical field have an inflated sense of their own talent.

I think the frustration is when you enter Medicine thinking it is going to be more prestigious, lucrative, etc than it really is. Many also don't realize the BS associated with it: dealing with insurance, difficult patients, etc. This leads to people considering other lines of work, which is understandable. The problem is that it takes a minimum of 7 years after College to become a PCP, so Physicians are WAY behind their colleagues with respect to skills and experience that is marketable in the traditional employment market.

Are you glad you left MC for Medicine? Why?