MD Heard a rumor that Step 1 (and maybe Step 2 CK) may change from scores to P/F. Is that true?

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If step 1 is p/f, the smart people will just do better on step 2 ck by focusing more on it. Maybe even from beginning of second year and study for it alongside step 1.
People love step 2 ck because the average is 240 (too lazy to check), so they think they did better on it than step 1. But the reality is most 230s on step 1 that become 240s on step 1 are the same percentiles. The score just looks higher. No doubt step 2 ck is much easier to study for which also makes it a more attractive test to some people. I did get concerned reading this initially but as long as there is 1 standardized test, it doesn't matter. The smart people will always stand out. The lazy, charismatic guy with a 205 on Step 1 but has family connections should never make it past the 250 hard working introvert (me). Hard work should always be rewarded.

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If step 1 is p/f, the smart people will just do better on step 2 ck by focusing more on it. Maybe even from beginning of second year and study for it alongside step 1.
People love step 2 ck because the average is 240 (too lazy to check), so they think they did better on it than step 1. But the reality is most 230s on step 1 that become 240s on step 1 are the same percentiles. The score just looks higher. I did get concerned reading this initially but as long as there is 1 standardized test, it doesn't matter. The smart people will always stand out. The lazy, charismatic guy with a 205 on Step 1 but has family connections should never make it past the 250 hard working introvert (me). Hard work should always be rewarded.
Hard work sure, but what about the ones that work just as hard but aren’t innately good at figuring out the sometimes convoluted objective of the questions? Once you hit a certain level that’s the difference and I don’t really think that those people will make better doctors by any real measure
 
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Tell that to people forced into specialties they have no interest in. The ortho (or any other specialty) or bust crowd loses their mind. Im just glad I was interested in FM anyway. I like OB but I am really not even competitive enough for that anymore.

It sucks having your entire career outcome being dictated by an exam score.

If the worst thing people can end up in is family or internal medicine then I really don’t have much empathy. God forbid a decent job making 250k isntgood enough. What makes you think PF exams will make the process fairer anyway?


It is dedicated season so it’s probably not uncommon for those who do not want to hack the work for step to come out and complain about how unfair things they haven’t experience are
 
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Hard work sure, but what about the ones that work just as hard but aren’t innately good at figuring out the sometimes convoluted objective of the questions? Once you hit a certain level that’s the difference and I don’t really think that those people will make better doctors by any real measure


Real patients are more convoluted than any test question. As are consult notes
 
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If the worst thing people can end up in is family or internal medicine then I really don’t have much empathy. God forbid a decent job making 250k isntgood enough. What makes you think PF exams will make the process fairer anyway?


It is dedicated season so it’s probably not uncommon for those who do not want to hack the work for step to come out and complain about how unfair things they haven’t experience are

When did I ever say P/F would make it fairer? It wouldn’t. All i was addressing is what Goro had said regarding attitudes toward this exam.
 
Real patients are more convoluted than any test question. As are consult notes
But you have the freedom to order more tests for additional information. There are countless times where I would want to get slightly more info on question stems to rule something out. It’s a big difference
 
Hard work sure, but what about the ones that work just as hard but aren’t innately good at figuring out the sometimes convoluted objective of the questions? Once you hit a certain level that’s the difference and I don’t really think that those people will make better doctors by any real measure
I did not think step 1 was convoluted one bit. I am sorry to say but if you think step 1 was convoluted, you should increase your knowledge base. I scored above a 250 and every single question which I wasn't sure of was because my knowledge base was lacking for that question. Not because I didn't understand the question. My scores reflects in my clinical performance in third year. I got honors in 5/6 rotations so far and I can see I have a better knowledge base than lot of interns and it is 100% is because of the hard work I put in for step 1. This DOES NOT mean I am better at managing patients than an intern because intern year is not just about your knowledge base but a conglomeration of many things.
The guy that scored a 260 had a better knowledge base and is smarter than me. There is no arguing there.
 
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Just as in other thread those hoping for PF step are backing up their claim with emotion and non statistics. We don’t just change things to see what happens. We need solid evidence of a major problem or at least a solution with a chance of being better. So far we see none of that. And to add it had to benefit PDs for it to happen otherwise they will adapt and overcome much quicker than med students and bicker and moan about a quantitative exam
 
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I did not think step 1 was convoluted one bit. I am sorry to say but if you think step 1 was convoluted, you should increase your knowledge base. I scored above a 250 and every single question which I wasn't sure of was because my knowledge base was lacking for that question. Not because I didn't understand it. My scores reflects in my clinical performance. I got honors in 5/6 rotations so far and I can see I have a better knowledge base than lot of interns and 100% is because of the hard work I put in for step 1.
Man I wish I could be as smart as you. Golly gee you’re just the greatest
 
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But you have the freedom to order more tests for additional information. There are countless times where I would want to get slightly more info on question stems to rule something out. It’s a big difference
We got what we need to answer the question on tests not always true in real life. Part of the game is reading and reading quickly for tests and RL
 
If people in this thread have a problem with Step 1, tell the PD's to stop using it first. No one is forcing them to. People fail to realize this basic fact. What's preventing them from using research, LORs, volunteering activites as primary means of taking in applicants.
 
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When did I ever say P/F would make it fairer? It wouldn’t. All i was addressing is what Goro had said regarding attitudes toward this exam.
Okay I agree it does suck then so I’m with you on that
 
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Man I wish I could be as smart as you. Golly gee you’re just the greatest

Man, I wish I wasn’t gonna be a stupid intern because i didn’t break a 250 on step 1.
 
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We got what we need to answer the question on tests not always true in real life. Part of the game is reading and reading quickly for tests and RL
Well I'm just saying what has come up with several classmates I've talked to while prepping. So apparently we're just not up to the level of you SDN gods. I'll let the enlightened ones carry it on from here
 
I think once the OMS2s in this thread take step they will realize it is more clinical than all the qbanks are.
Less biochem less physio more diagnosis and treatment and non mathematically interpretation of stats than q banks.

My step 1 was not much diff than step two hence why it is correlated with step 2 performance immensely. Honestly if you gave me a set of 50 questions I would be hard pressed to tell you which was from which exam
 
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Well I'm just saying what has come up with several classmates I've talked to while prepping. So apparently we're just not up to the level of you SDN gods. I'll let the enlightened ones carry it on from here
Not really things just look different in retrospect
 
I did not think step 1 was convoluted one bit. I am sorry to say but if you think step 1 was convoluted, you should increase your knowledge base. I scored above a 250 and every single question which I wasn't sure of was because my knowledge base was lacking for that question. Not because I didn't understand the question. My scores reflects in my clinical performance in third year. I got honors in 5/6 rotations so far and I can see I have a better knowledge base than lot of interns and it is 100% is because of the hard work I put in for step 1.
Agree with this 100000%. I don't understand why people WHO HAVEN'T TAKEN THE EXAM state it's not "clinically focused, it test minutiae, it's convoluted, whatever." It is not. It really does not test that much minutiae. Take the exam. See how you perform. Try to understand what important concepts the questions are testing.
 
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Okay I agree it does suck then so I’m with you on that

Indeed. We’re taught early on if you don’t do as well on Step 1 that you’re not good enough and viewed as a lesser good to basically everyone. Hell, a clerkship director said at my school if you got less than a 220 you would struggle to match into ANYTHING.

Basically, underperformers on Step 1 shouldn’t be made to feel like they’ll be lesser doctors or that they’re stupid. Thet shouldn’t be made to feel like they’ll match into anything but spots nobody else wants. This is what upset me the most about all of this.

Step 1 going P/F wouldn’t make anything more fair. Especially for DOs and people at “lesser” MDs like myself
 
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Man, I wish I wasn’t gonna be a stupid intern because i didn’t break a 250 on step 1.
Not really. If you don't break a 250, you just need to go back and study harder. I am sure there are lot of interns right now that got a 215 but are the smartest interns on the team because they are working their asses off. Same way there might be 250s that suck right now because they got lazy. I am just saying my hard work I put in for getting a high score reflects in my clinical performance and knowledge base on the wards.
 
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Agree with this 100000%. I don't understand why people WHO HAVEN'T TAKEN THE EXAM state it's not "clinically focused, it test minutiae, it's convoluted, whatever." It is not. It really does not test that much minutiae. Take the exam. See how you perform. Try to understand what important concepts the questions are testing.
I know I just don’t see how people who have not taken it complain about it lol. It’s the best written test I ever took and honestly I was smiling while answering or trying to answer questions by how well out together it was. Even though while studying and taking the test I was also crying inside bc life is hard
 
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Not really. If you don't break a 250, you just need to go back and study harder. I am sure there are lot of interns right now that got a 215 but are the smartest interns on the team because they are working their asses off. Same way there might be 250s that suck right now because they got lazy. I am just saying my hard work I put in for getting a high score reflects in my clinical performance and knowledge base on the wards.

I also get rated highly clinically and outperform my peers. But, yeah, clearly I am not capable.
 
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I also get rated highly clinically and outperform my peers. But, yeah, clearly I am not capable.
Maybe you started working harder and started reading more than your peers since you took step 1. If you think you did poorly on step 1 but you in reality are smarter than the people who got a 250, I am sorry I can't argue with you. And I mean your knowledge base during the time you took step 1. For all I know, after step 1 you might have been working super hard and might now be more knowledgeable than your peers. But I cannot argue with anyone who thinks that a 210 scorer has more knowledge base at that point of time than a 260 scorer (it can change after that).
 
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Not really. If you don't break a 250, you just need to go back and study harder. I am sure there are lot of interns right now that got a 215 but are the smartest interns on the team because they are working their asses off. Same way there might be 250s that suck right now because they got lazy. I am just saying my hard work I put in for getting a high score reflects in my clinical performance and knowledge base on the wards.
There's also a lot of people who actually have obligations other than medical school. Families, actual human lives outside of step, etc. You work as hard as you can given the circumstances. Your mindset on other peoples work ethics and intelligence makes you sound pretty insufferable honestly. Some people do better in real life and not on a multiple choice test. But I'm done with this. Best of luck with your killer score and amazing work ethic. We all aspire to be as good as you one day
 
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Thankfully, the PD at my top choice program doesn’t take Step 1 into account at all if you passed first try. This person really helped me through a tough time when I got my score back. But they didn’t think lesser of me.

Im not a great test taker and it sucks. This also isn’t the fault of everyone else and that is only my problem. I still maintain changing it to P/F won’t make anything about anything more fair.
 
Maybe you started working harder and started reading more than your peers since you took step 1. If you think you did poorly on step 1 but you in reality are smarter than the people who got a 250, I am sorry I can't argue with you.

LOL in no place did I say anything about being smarter. I mentioned clinical competence which clearly my preceptors seem to think i have. Having a 250 doesnt necessarily make you smarter or harder working than someone who didn’t. But keep telling yourself that you’re smarter than your interns.
 
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LOL in no place did I say anything about being smarter. I mentioned clinical competence which clearly my preceptors seem to think i have. Having a 250 doesnt necessarily make you smarter or harder working than someone who didn’t. But keep telling yourself that you’re smarter than your interns.
Step 1 is a snapshot of your work ethic and knowledge base 2 years after medical school. Lots of physicians with poor step scores might go on to become excellent physicians because they improved their work ethic and knowledge base after that. But that doesn't mean at the end of 2 years when they were taking step 1, they were the most knowledgeable people. That is what step 1 is assessing: how your knowledge base and work ethic was at the end of 2 years not how it is going to be for the rest of your life.
 
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Tell that to people forced into specialties they have no interest in. The ortho (or any other specialty) or bust crowd loses their mind. Im just glad I was interested in FM anyway. I like OB but I am really not even competitive enough for that anymore.

It sucks having your entire career outcome being dictated by an exam score.
I can guarantee you that having a perfect Step score and lousy evaluations and letters will sink your ortho career just as badly as a mediocre Step score.
 
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I can guarantee you that having a perfect Step score and lousy evaluations and letters will sink your ortho career just as badly as a mediocre Step score.

I know that now. But back in July that picture wasn’t as clear.
 
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Just a few points to make. All of these are generalities, so please don't tell me about you or your friend who was the one exception to these. These apply to most students:

1. Step 1 is a measure of knowledge of the first 2 years of medicine, and tests clinically relevant knowledge. It's not esoteric garbage, it's the FOUNDATION OF MEDICINE. You can't argue that step 1 doesn't test important information. Sure no one cares about HLA Subtypes or lysosomal storage diseases, but these types of questions are few and far between.

2. Performance on Step 1 impacts performance during third year. High scorers tend to stand out on rounds and crush their shelf exams. Step 1 doesn't go out the window after test day. 90% is incredibly important and is what will help you do well during third year. Sure some not so great step scorers do well third year and a few 250+ kids struggle, but ON AVERAGE the 250+ kids outperform the 200-220 kids. Congrats if you got a 215 and are honoring everything. That doesn't mean the trend doesn't exist.

3. People who score well on step 1 generally score well on step 2. Putting the emphasis on Step 2 instead of Step 1 would do absolutely nothing. No one cares if maybe "it's more clinical". Most people with similar effort will not drop or gain percentiles from Step 1 to Step 2. The argument that step 2 is better than step 1 is ridiculous. Both exams can easily accomplish the same goal. No matter what metric you replace step 1 with, good students will continue to do better, there will always be a bell curve, you can't escape that.

4. Generally speaking, the top 10 to 20 to X% of Step 1 scorers tend to make better residents than low scorers. Even aprogramdirector said this. Please don't get offended... No one is saying that having a 210 makes you a bad doctor, what we are saying is that people with killer board scores, tend to be superstar residents much more often than those with poor scores. For the record, I'm not saying a 230 and a 240 are different or a 250 and 260 are different, no one has that resolution or detail. but when talking about 30-50 points on step 1, there will be noticeable differences.

Finally:
While these may be general trends, remember that you are an individual, not a trend line. I have met terrible students who get lucky on test day and score high and great students who have a bad day and score low. That doesn't mean that you can't be a good doctor.

But remember that for the vast majority of students their step one score will be a direct reflection of their work ethic and medical knowledge after 1/2 of medical school, and it's not a surprise that students who do well on this exam tend to do well on most other aspects of medical school and residency.

EDIT: And sure, you can't prove that Step 1 makes better residents in any study, but when countless faculty and program directors see the association, that's pretty hard to deny. Just do a rotation with general surgery residents and plastic/ENT/Ortho residents at the same regular hospital (not looking at Harvard Plastic vs Gen Surg, think mid-tier institutions). Another example: countless faculty have commented that their derm prelim interns are stronger than the IM prelim interns, which is shocking considering the difference in goals during that intern year. You will be absolutely blown away by the difference in resident quality overall.
 
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Just a few points to make. All of these are generalities, so please don't tell me about you or your friend who was the one exception to these. These apply to most students:

1. Step 1 is a measure of knowledge of the first 2 years of medicine, and tests clinically relevant knowledge. It's not esoteric garbage, it's the FOUNDATION OF MEDICINE. You can't argue that step 1 doesn't test important information. Sure no one cares about HLA Subtypes or lysosomal storage diseases, but these types of questions are few and far between.

2. Performance on Step 1 impacts performance during third year. High scorers tend to stand out on rounds and crush their shelf exams. Step 1 doesn't go out the window after test day. 90% is incredibly important and is what will help you do well during third year. Sure some not so great step scorers do well third year and a few 250+ kids struggle, but ON AVERAGE the 250+ kids outperform the 200-220 kids. Congrats if you got a 215 and are honoring everything. That doesn't mean the trend doesn't exist.

3. People who score well on step 1 generally score well on step 2. Putting the emphasis on Step 2 instead of Step 1 would do absolutely nothing. No one cares if maybe "it's more clinical". Most people with similar effort will not drop or gain percentiles from Step 1 to Step 2. The argument that step 2 is better than step 1 is ridiculous. Both exams can easily accomplish the same goal. No matter what metric you replace step 1 with, good students will continue to do better, there will always be a bell curve, you can't escape that.

4. Generally speaking, the top 10 to 20 to X% of Step 1 scorers tend to make better residents than low scorers. Even aprogramdirector said this. Please don't get offended... No one is saying that having a 210 makes you a bad doctor, what we are saying is that people with killer board scores, tend to be superstar residents much more often than those with poor scores. For the record, I'm not saying a 230 and a 240 are different or a 250 and 260 are different, no one has that resolution or detail. but when talking about 30-50 points on step 1, there will be noticeable differences.

Finally:
While these may be general trends, remember that you are an individual, not a trend line. I have met terrible students who get lucky on test day and score high and great students who have a bad day and score low. That doesn't mean that you can't be a good doctor.

But remember that for the vast majority of students their step one score will be a direct reflection of their work ethic and medical knowledge after 1/2 of medical school, and it's not a surprise that students who do well on this exam tend to do well on most other aspects of medical school and residency.

EDIT: And sure, you can't prove that Step 1 makes better residents in any study, but when countless faculty and program directors see the association, that's pretty hard to deny. Just do a rotation with general surgery residents and plastic/ENT/Ortho residents at the same regular hospital (not looking at Harvard Plastic vs Gen Surg, think mid-tier institutions). Another example: countless faculty have commented that their derm prelim interns are better than the IM prelim interns, which is shocking considering the difference in goals during that intern year. You will be absolutely blown away by the difference in resident quality overall.
Perfectly summarized.
 
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I just think it should be based on data that we know to be relevant to your clinical competency.

Step 1 tests important concepts in medicine and pathophysiology and how we practice modern medicine... how is it not relevant to clinical competency? I am really really dumb but I do not understand this point of view at all. Even in residency you will continue to learn basic science and principles of how medicine is practiced... for example, Rad Onc boards test medical physics, radiation biology, tumor/cancer biology etc, surgery boards test basic science foundations in surgery, and the practice is anesthesia is all about a rigorous understand of physiology and cause and effect of action of different anesthetics, etc.


Making an exam Pass/Fail is the very nature of lowering its stakes and importance.
 
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I have spent hours hearing med students complain about how step 1 is a ridiculous exam testing mostly minutiae that is unfairly used to assess our knowledgebase. Almost invariably these are the students who didnt perform up to par on their own standards (think 99th percentile MCAT to average step).
Often (but definitely not always) these are the same students who know how to play the game during clerkships and believe those assessments are fair and justified. Cry me a river.
 
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I think some of the Step 1 material is relevant to clinical competency, but not all of it. There's a lot of Step 1 material that I'd argue the majority of us will never use after M2 year. And you're right, you do continue to use/learn some of that basic science during residency...the parts that are relevant to your field, and in the context of patient care. I think that's a better way to integrate basic science into medical education.

And sure, let's say I agree that Step 1 is a fair indicator of clinical competency. Do you really think people in the most competitive fields, which tend to be highly specialized, like derm, ortho, urology, etc. - need to use more step 1 knowledge in their career than people in the least competitive fields, which tend to be more generalized, like peds, FM, IM? I'd actually argue that the fields that need that knowledge the most place lower importance on a stellar Step 1 score. Heck, pathologists probably use more Step 1 knowledge than anybody and it's one of the easiest fields to get into with a low step score. If step 1 really does tell us how competent a physician will be, shouldn't we be restricting low scorers to fields where you need a narrow but deep knowledge base rather than the other way around?

well, MS1 and MS2 are about learning the foundation of disease and physiology of all organ and body systems... that's why Step 1 is COMPREHENSIVE. because it's testing you on the assumption that you've learned COMPREHENSIVELY about the foundation of medicine as an MS1/MS2. and understanding relevant basic science and pathophysiology is really important to practicing medicine as a clinician... medicine is not algorithmic, it is based on understanding the underlying physiologic or anatomic derangement and then treating it with what we have available to us in contemporary medicine... whether it's treating leaky capillaries in sepsis with pressors, fluids and antibiotics, bladder dysfunction with anticholinergics, or inflammation in a COPD flare with steroids, or treating an anatomic problem with surgery.

also your 2nd paragraph. what kind of an argument is that, you can't force people to chose FM just because they scored >240 if they want to do something else. that's not how the real world works.
 
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I think some of the Step 1 material is relevant to clinical competency, but not all of it. There's a lot of Step 1 material that I'd argue the majority of us will never use after M2 year. And you're right, you do continue to use/learn some of that basic science during residency...the parts that are relevant to your field, and in the context of patient care. I think that's a better way to integrate basic science into medical education.

And sure, let's say I agree that Step 1 is a fair indicator of clinical competency. Do you really think people in the most competitive fields, which tend to be highly specialized, like derm, ortho, urology, etc. - need to use more step 1 knowledge in their career than people in the least competitive fields, which tend to be more generalized, like peds, FM, IM? I'd actually argue that the fields that need that knowledge the most place lower importance on a stellar Step 1 score. Heck, pathologists probably use more Step 1 knowledge than anybody and it's one of the easiest fields to get into with a low step score. If step 1 really does tell us how competent a physician will be, shouldn't we be restricting low scorers to fields where you need a narrow but deep knowledge base rather than the other way around?
Everything I know is from studying for step 1. I don't think there is a single concept that was tested on step 1 which I thought was utterly useless including lysosomal storage diseases. Maybe biochemistry but I did not have a single question on Step 1 that was not clinically relevant biochemistry. I had multiple patients on pediatrics that had these rare diseases that require biochemistry and genetics knowledge. The whole point of preparing for Step 1 is to give you the widest possible knowledge before specializing in residency.

Step 1 is an indicator of your knowledge base after the first 2 years. Your clinical competency is dictated by your interpersonal skills and how well you build on your knowledge from Step 1.

I am inclined to believe a rigorous study period for step 1 is what differentiates a medical student from the PA student or nursing student. These people are exposed to the same clinical setting as medical students starting third year but invariably the medical student shines more (at least in my experience) owing to a strong base in physiology and pathophysiology of diseases.

I have spent hours hearing med students complain about how step 1 is a ridiculous exam testing mostly minutiae that is unfairly used to assess our knowledgebase. Almost invariably these are the students who didnt perform up to par on their own standards (think 99th percentile MCAT to average step).
Often (but definitely not always) these are the same students who know how to play the game during clerkships and believe those assessments are fair and justified. Cry me a river.
I have spent hours hearing med students complain about how step 1 is a ridiculous exam testing mostly minutiae that is unfairly used to assess our knowledgebase. Almost invariably these are the students who didnt perform up to par on their own standards (think 99th percentile MCAT to average step).
Often (but definitely not always) these are the same students who know how to play the game during clerkships and believe those assessments are fair and justified. Cry me a river.
100%. I mean people complain about Step 1 which is a test with 2 years of study time that is as comprehensive and fair as it can be. Just coming back from a match panel where the program director was talking about how important a 30 minute interview was in matching. Might as well complain about that too. A 30 minute interview determining your future
 
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Step 1 tests important concepts in medicine and pathophysiology and how we practice modern medicine... how is it not relevant to clinical competency?

I have been a power user of the NBME's Customized Assessment Service almost since its inception. In the process I have reviewed many, many, many, many Step 1 questions. My feelings on your statement are mixed. On the one hand, Step 1 does contain a trove of very good, highly vetted questions that address (as you say) important concepts in medicine and pathophysiology. It also contains a bunch of questions on esoterica that are only attractive because of their point biserial discriminator indices. It also has no questions in many areas of medicine and pathophysiology that I believe a lot of practicing physicians would deem important. So every side in this argument has a point.
 
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I have been a power user of the NBME's Customized Assessment Service almost since its inception. In the process I have reviewed many, many, many, many Step 1 questions. My feelings on your statement are mixed. On the one hand, Step 1 does contain a trove of very good, highly vetted questions that address (as you say) important concepts in medicine and pathophysiology. It also contains a bunch of questions on esoterica that are only attractive because of their point biserial discriminator indices. It also has no questions in many areas of medicine and pathophysiology that I believe a lot of practicing physicians would deem important. So every side in this argument has a point.


yes, there are esoteric/wtf questions on every single standardized exams... they are usually <5% of the exam and are used to differentiate the 99% percentile scorer (like a 275) from an 90% percentile scorer (like a 260 or something). These questions will very rarely determine whether someone scores a 205 vs a 260. The other "trove" of highly vetted and very good questions are the ones the students should be focusing on answering correctly to score well.

can you give concrete example of what areas or medicine and pathophysiology are not well covered. I am not trying to be argumentative, this is for my own education as well as everyone's.
 
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you are essentially willing to force people to choose certain specialties if their step score is too low, right?

No. People can chose whatever specialty they are interested in to apply to no matter their Step score.
 
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but I think that even without the extrinsic motivation of a Step 1 score, med students will still find it worthwhile to learn information that will help them provide better care for their patients.
258407
 
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if step 1 is all about competency, shouldn't the specialties that require the broadest knowledge base, or the greatest amount of basic science knowledge, place a higher value on Step 1 than they do?
they can do that. FM arguably required the broadest knowledge of medicine - OB, peds, IM, outpatient, inpatient, etc. Any FM PD can feel free to filter any app with a Step <240. Due to supply and demand through, an FM program is not likely to fill uniformly with applicants who have achieved a Step 1 score >240. The demand from medical students for FM spots, or pathology spots, or whatever else spots is not that good due to multiple factors. So even if they want to, an FM program can't demand ortho tier scores from its applicants. and I'm very sure that there are a lot of FM PDs out there who value high scores.

I think we both know that a low step 1 score significantly limits your options. Just because you're allowed to apply to whatever you want doesn't mean that you have a realistic shot at making it into a certain specialty.
yep, a low Step 1 limits people's options. Significantly? It depends. People match all kinds of specialties with all kinds of scores. A lot of things limit residency options for medical students, such as not graduating valedictorian of the med school class, not making junior AOA or publishing 3 first author NEJM, Nature, and JAMA papers, or not bench pressing >250 and applying ortho. A great Step 1 score very much helps an application though because PDs still consider it to be a good metric of who will be a competent/proficient resident. That's why pre-clinical students should strive to do the best they are able so they can chose whatever specialty they want and be the best physician they are able to be.
 
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Please no. I need to distinguish myself, and step 1 is a clear-cut way to do so.
 
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Most people think they will blow step 1 out of the water and get this magical "edge:. Reality? Most do average.

I feel like everyone just needs to realize that we are over the hill with medicine. This generation of medicine is facing decreasing reimbursements, mid-level encroachment, AI, loss of respect from the general public, school proliferation, hospital administration bloat and increasing debt load. This is just another one of theese issues we have to face. This p/f thing is a bandaid and a pipe dream.

The best thing to do is to come into medical school prepared from day 1. Grind hard and do the best you can on STEP 1. Clearly, that is the gate to competitive places and specialties. If you want it bad enough you need to work for it. Yes, this means you will need to sacrifice your health and free time. Some of you are high IQ and will be fine. But if you are like me, you are only slightly intelligent, you will work like a dog for your dreams because you know what is at the other end and you understand the consequences if you fail.

This was drilled into me since birth. Everything is against us no one cares. Only you can control your destiny.
 
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yes, there are esoteric/wtf questions on every single standardized exams... they are usually <5% of the exam and are used to differentiate the 99% percentile scorer (like a 275) from an 90% percentile scorer (like a 260 or something).

I believe they are a significantly higher proportion of Step 1 exams than <5%. As alluded to earlier in this thread, Step 1 is pass/fail by design, which is accomplished by having a lot of low P/high biserial questions. This explains why most people walk out of the test bewildered and thinking they may have failed. But it does the job: high discriminatory power around 194, but low ability to separate 220 from 230, 230 from 240, 240 from 250, etc.

ricksimmonsrafowens said:
can you give concrete example of what areas or medicine and pathophysiology are not well covered. I am not trying to be argumentative, this is for my own education as well as everyone's.

If you were to see the NDA I had to sign I think you would forgive me for declining to elaborate.

Edit: on second thought, just take all medical knowledge and subtract out the USMLE Content Outline.
 
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Did this type of situation exist prior to Step I' s current incarnation?

The sky isnt falling.
and yes that type of situation did actually exist prior to residency applications becoming meritocratic thru the NRMP algorithm and numerical scoring of USMLE exams


I don’t have any proof, but it’s long been said that “who you knew” used to play heavily into residency placement.

I prefer the current system. When I heard about this potential change a few days ago I thought that this was so ridiculous that it had to be a rumor created by SDN nervous nellies. ;)
 
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I’m wondering if some group believes that the most competitive specialties and programs are too populated with overly-represented groups?

If we look at the residents’ pics posted on top programs and competitive specialties, will we see too many ORMs who test very well?

And why is having a score for Step 1 “bad,” but it’s ok to have scores for MCAT and Step 2?
Dude don't even try to pull this. People are not landing neurosurgery or plastics residencies because they are white.


Dude, never would I claim that. I was just wondering if there’s a social engineering undercurrent to this. If those who want to manipulate outcomes are seeing that too few UIMs have high enough Step 1 scores to seriously consider the competitive residencies and programs, then this would be there recommendation.

Why do you think that when the new MCAT came out, there was this pressure on MD med schools to look at anything 500+ to be acceptable? Of course the med schools essentially ignored that and still pretty much stick to their old MCAT equivalent standards - anything around 507+ potentially acceptable. That’s why I also asked if the next step is to make the MCAT pass/fail.
 
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Dude, never would I claim that. I was just wondering if there’s a social engineering undercurrent to this. If those who want to manipulate outcomes are seeing that too few UIMs have high enough Step 1 scores to seriously consider the competitive residencies and programs, then this would be there recommendation.

Why do you think that when the new MCAT came out, there was this pressure on MD med schools to look at anything 500+ to be acceptable? Of course the med schools essentially ignored that and still pretty much stick to their old MCAT equivalent standards - anything around 507+ potentially acceptable. That’s why I also asked if the next step is to make the MCAT pass/fail.
I think this is more likely than anyone actually caring about student stress because this doesn’t stop student stress

But if the major objective measures can be removed it’s easier for urm/orm status to sneak into “holistic” review
 
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I think this is more likely than anyone actually caring about student stress because this doesn’t stop student stress

But if the major objective measures can be removed it’s easier for urm/orm status to sneak into “holistic” review
I think this is obviously a possibility. However, unlike school admissions, residencies have a distinct requirement to ensure their residents perform as well as they can. Bad residents reflect poorly on the institution and the program. Its a job, not a school acceptance.
 
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You've made my point for me. Using Step 1 as a residency selection tool isn't about competency. It's not that urologists and dermatologists need to be significantly more competent or more intelligent or more anything than a family doctor or a pathologist. That's not why derm PDs care about your score. It's just about supply and demand - that this is one of the only measures available to separate candidates at a quick glance, even if it doesn't mean anything.

But step 1 does mean something... It's an objective measure of the knowledge you've accumulated during MS1 & MS2. That's why it's used in resident selection. It doesn't matter what scores can go into what specialties. The test itself is an objective measure of an applicants knowledge.
 
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You've made my point for me. Using Step 1 as a residency selection tool isn't about competency. It's not that urologists and dermatologists need to be significantly more competent or more intelligent or more anything than a family doctor or a pathologist. That's not why derm PDs care about your score. It's just about supply and demand - that this is one of the only measures available to separate candidates at a quick glance, even if it doesn't mean anything.


Well how do you suggest they get through 500 apps for 2-3 spots? Its not perfect, but its the best thing we got. Why would you take someone who scores 220 over someone who scores 260? Its obvious the 220 had a poorer knowledge base. People should know how competitive things are and should keep that in mind when studying for step.
 
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