Help me rank my forensic fellowship programs

[Beedoc]

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Borrowed from an old thread:

Hey, PGY-3 in psych and currently trying to learn as much as I can about forensic psychiatry programs. The programs are very difficult to distinguish based on their websites.

I have a checklist of the things I should look for: quality and quantity of evaluations (including insanity cases), shorter commutes, different types of supervision, evaluation of malingering training, etc. Ideally I would like to work on criminal and civil evaluations after I complete my training.

I'd appreciate your participation in the poll, and I'd love to hear your rationale(s)!

 

[Stagg737]

A lot of forensics fellowship is not just about exposure, but about supervision and accessibility to the real experts. Talking to some of our former residents who went into forensics, some big name programs (like Case) have some big names but those individuals apparently have been more hands off with supervision. Meanwhile apparently Dr. Knoll at SUNY Upstate supposedly still works closely with fellows. So something worth considering when you apply and interview.

I know people that interviewed or went to several of the programs listed. I've heard very good things about MUSC and Michigan in addition to SUNY as I mentioned. If you're looking in CA, I'd also look into UC Davis as one of my former residents who interviewed at 4-5 of your listed programs felt UC Davis was one of the more impressive programs they looked at.

 

[Atreides]

I'd also look into UC Davis as one of my former residents who interviewed at 4-5 of your listed programs felt UC Davis was one of the more impressive programs they looked at.

lol, UC Davis is almost universally considered to be the top forensic fellowship in the country, especially after Resnick retired from Case Western. They pretty much have their pick of the top applicants in the country.

 

[comp1]

Shouldn't you be basing this off geography and where you want to live for the rest of your life, particularly considering the importance of understanding state specific laws and local networking? I only know UCD and the University of Southern California. I genuinely didn't know UCSF had a forensic fellowship. The rest of the country would personally not be worth it for me, even for a year

 

[PsyDr]

Geography probably says something about what type of forensic stuff you get exposed to. If you're interested in severe criminal work, NOLA and Detroit suburbs have to be pretty high up there. If you're interested in high end custody cases, I'm guessing that UCSF sees a lot of wealthy nerds arguing about stuff. If I was a non-minority, I wouldn't touch Yale's program.

*Psychologist, and I don't know much about your fellowships.

 

[Atreides]

Geography probably says something about what type of forensic stuff you get exposed to. If you're interested in severe criminal work, NOLA and Detroit suburbs have to be pretty high up there. If you're interested in high end custody cases, I'm guessing that UCSF sees a lot of wealthy nerds arguing about stuff. If I was a non-minority, I wouldn't touch Yale's program.

*Psychologist, and I don't know much about your fellowships.

UCSF is a pretty strong program, just a hair below UC Davis. Draws from the same applicant pool and has the advantage of being in the Bay Area rather than Sacramento. They rotate through San Quentin (used to be death row prison for California until recently).

Curious as to your comment about Yale? My impression there was the opposite, quite a few racial comments made in passing.

 

[PsyDr]

UCSF is a pretty strong program, just a hair below UC Davis. Draws from the same applicant pool and has the advantage of being in the Bay Area rather than Sacramento. They rotate through San Quentin (used to be death row prison for California until recently).

Curious as to your comment about Yale? My impression there was the opposite, quite a few racial comments made in passing.

'Problematic and Racist': NYC Psychiatrist Defends Yale Lecture and Her 'Fantasy' About Shooting White People

A psychiatrist who spoke to Yale University's School of Medicine's Child Study Center in early April, describing a wild fantasy where she kills white people, says her words were misinterpreted.

cbn.com

 

[romanticscience]

'Problematic and Racist': NYC Psychiatrist Defends Yale Lecture and Her 'Fantasy' About Shooting White People

A psychiatrist who spoke to Yale University's School of Medicine's Child Study Center in early April, describing a wild fantasy where she kills white people, says her words were misinterpreted.

cbn.com

And: Yale Psych drama and current state of the program

 

[Atreides]

'Problematic and Racist': NYC Psychiatrist Defends Yale Lecture and Her 'Fantasy' About Shooting White People

A psychiatrist who spoke to Yale University's School of Medicine's Child Study Center in early April, describing a wild fantasy where she kills white people, says her words were misinterpreted.

cbn.com

A private practice doctor with no Yale affiliation?

 

[PsyDr]

A private practice doctor with no Yale affiliation?

Presenting at grand rounds of Yale is no affiliation?

 

[TexasPhysician]

A private practice doctor with no Yale affiliation?

Worse. If it was a Yale employee, Yale could have argued that the behavior was against institutional policy and terminated the employee. Instead Yale reviewed the topic and speaker and thought such a talk would be appropriate for the whole department to learn something.

 

[Stagg737]

lol, UC Davis is almost universally considered to be the top forensic fellowship in the country, especially after Resnick retired from Case Western. They pretty much have their pick of the top applicants in the country.

From the few forensics docs I've talked to UC Davis is not named with the programs they consider the top couple of programs, so saying it's consensus seems like this may be personal opinion of people in your locale. Not saying it's not a great program, my former resident thought it was, but I haven't seen it named with programs like Case or SUNY.

Curious as to your comment about Yale? My impression there was the opposite, quite a few racial comments made in passing.

Not to derail too much or pile on, but one of my former co-residents did a non-forensics fellowship there. They are a minority and said they felt pretty uncomfortable there due to the culture. Apparently spent a lot of their time there keeping their head down and not voicing their opinion in certain areas because they were worried about being alienated. They're a pretty moderate but slightly left leaning individual and they didn't feel their views were tolerated. I wouldn't put much weight in a single individual, but there's plenty of other examples. Apparently a few years ago they had an NP interview forensic psych applicants:

 

[TexasPhysician]

From the few forensics docs I've talked to UC Davis is not named with the programs they consider the top couple of programs, so saying it's consensus seems like this may be personal opinion of people in your locale. Not saying it's not a great program, my former resident thought it was, but I haven't seen it named with programs like Case or SUNY.


Not to derail too much or pile on, but one of my former co-residents did a non-forensics fellowship there. They are a minority and said they felt pretty uncomfortable there due to the culture. Apparently spent a lot of their time there keeping their head down and not voicing their opinion in certain areas because they were worried about being alienated. They're a pretty moderate but slightly left leaning individual and they didn't feel their views were tolerated. I wouldn't put much weight in a single individual, but there's plenty of other examples. Apparently a few years ago they had an NP interview forensic psych applicants:

Friends could be outdated or have a different niche. I’m child in Texas. If I did a forensics fellowship, it would be UC Davis or bust for me. No where else can match them from a child forensic position.

 

[Atreides]

From the few forensics docs I've talked to UC Davis is not named with the programs they consider the top couple of programs, so saying it's consensus seems like this may be personal opinion of people in your locale. Not saying it's not a great program, my former resident thought it was, but I haven't seen it named with programs like Case or SUNY.

Nah, UC Davis has been one of the top three programs for quite some time now. Forensics is a personality driven field and Charles Scott is a big name. UC Davis and Case have historically been the two biggest names. SUNY, while great under Knoll's leadership, doesn't have the same cachet as UC Davis or Case.

 

[comp1]

Third for UCD being the absolute top. It's definitely not a localized opinion.

 

[Psychiater]

From the few forensics docs I've talked to UC Davis is not named with the programs they consider the top couple of programs, so saying it's consensus seems like this may be personal opinion of people in your locale. Not saying it's not a great program, my former resident thought it was, but I haven't seen it named with programs like Case or SUNY.

I'm currently wrapping up with interviews for the forensic fellowship match this season. I think that UC Davis is a glaring omission from your list -- I was extremely impressed by the program on interview day and recommend you consider applying next year. If you look at the old thread that inspired you to make this one, several folks commented that it was surprising that UC Davis was not on the poster's list either and that it was considered one of the top programs nationally.

Splik, a longtime forum contributor and forensic psychiatrist, also listed UC Davis along with Case Western and Yale as one of the most highly-regarded programs nationally back in 2016.

 

[romanticscience]

Check out chapter 7 of this book:

http://136.175.10.10:8090/ebook/pd...ry_Current_Developments_Future_Directions.pdf

It describes the Scott/UCD program philosophy. It might be outdated. From his presentations at AAPL, he is a big proponent of psychological testing in forensic psychiatric evaluation, which is cool.

 

[comp1]

Yeah, I bet juries eat up the psychometric testing stuff. Having standard deviations has got to sound better than "in my expert opinion" even if there isn't much difference in reality.

 

[Stagg737]

Yeah, I bet juries eat up the psychometric testing stuff. Having standard deviations has got to sound better than "in my expert opinion" even if there isn't much difference in reality.

The average juror probably can't spell "standard deviation", so I'm doubtful they could actually understand what that means...

Nah, UC Davis has been one of the top three programs for quite some time now. Forensics is a personality driven field and Charles Scott is a big name. UC Davis and Case have historically been the two biggest names. SUNY, while great under Knoll's leadership, doesn't have the same cachet as UC Davis or Case.

Sure, and to be clear I'm not saying UC Davis isn't an outstanding program or that it shouldn't be added to OP's list. I want to be clear that I'm not trying to speak poorly of the program at all. It's just not the/a program mentioned when I've asked my colleagues what the very best programs are. Maybe it's geographic bias, idk.

I'm fully aware of how name/reputation driven the field is which is part of why Case is still regarded so highly. One thing to consider is that those names are meaningless from a training standpoint if the resident never interacts with those big names. It's why the people I've talked to speak so highly of SUNY, they've all said that Dr. Knoll has stayed heavily involved in training and supervision of fellows unlike some other "top" programs (not talking about UC Davis here, a recent/current fellow that went there felt it was fantastic too).

 

[sloop]

I have PMed you about one of the programs on this survey.

 

[Dopamemes]

Sure, and to be clear I'm not saying UC Davis isn't an outstanding program or that it shouldn't be added to OP's list. I want to be clear that I'm not trying to speak poorly of the program at all. It's just not the/a program mentioned when I've asked my colleagues what the very best programs are. Maybe it's geographic bias, idk.

UC Davis has a national reputation in forensic psychiatry. If your colleagues don't mention it when asked about the best programs, that speaks more about their knowledge of the best programs than anything else. 10 out of 10 forensic psychiatrists would consider it to be at the uber top of programs when it comes to training forensic psychiatrists.

 

[Stagg737]

UC Davis has a national reputation in forensic psychiatry. If your colleagues don't mention it when asked about the best programs, that speaks more about their knowledge of the best programs than anything else. 10 out of 10 forensic psychiatrists would consider it to be at the uber top of programs when it comes to training forensic psychiatrists.

I don't want to keep beating a dead horse, but I'm talking about their opinion of the best program in the country. Pretty clear it's a fantastic program and even happier for my former resident who matched there (from a mid-tier academic program without any formal forensics staff). It seems like plenty of people here think it's the best which is fine, but I think there's also regional bias there too (2/3 who said it's #1 are in/from Cali). I know other people heavily involved in the field who still say places like Case or Yale are #1. Imo it doesn't really matter and this whole conversation is like arguing who the GOAT NBA player was, there's clearly programs that are at the top but the "best" is going to vary based on opinions. Like I originally said, it's a great program that from what I've heard offers an extensive variety in training and has strong supervision, which is why it should be on OP's list if getting a top education is their priority.

 

[Atreides]

seems like plenty of people here think it's the best which is fine, but I think there's also regional bias there too (2/3 who said it's #1 are in/from Cali). I know other people heavily involved in the field who still say places like Case or Yale are #1. Imo it doesn't really matter and this whole conversation is like arguing who the GOAT NBA player was, there's clearly programs that are at the top but the "best" is going to vary based on opinions. Like I originally said, it's a great program that from what I've heard offers an extensive variety in training and has strong supervision, which is why it should be on OP's list if getting a top education is their priority.

Just fyi, I'm not from California (or in it currently). I'm from the midwest, did my residency training in Ohio (and proud of it, had great training). I would've jumped on a UC Davis offer but guess I didn't impress Dr. Scott enough during my interview lol.

 

[Stagg737]

Just fyi, I'm not from California (or in it currently). I'm from the midwest, did my residency training in Ohio (and proud of it, had great training). I would've jumped on a UC Davis offer but guess I didn't impress Dr. Scott enough during my interview lol.

I thought you had mentioned doing work in California in other threads, my mistake!

Also, apologies if OP's thread got derailed, was definitely not my intention. Regardless of what program we think is #1, I think pretty much everyone (myself included) thinks UC Davis should probably be added to OP's list.

 

[FatherPsychiatry]

Yeah I feel like people mostly know programs because of a figure or two that is there. Like someone stated above, there's a small number of well-known names in forensics, and those names aren't necessarily tied to the usual big name universities. For example, I don't even know if Harvard has a forensic psychiatry residency, but James Knoll is at "SUNY Upstate". Likewise, I can't name anyone at Stanford's forensic psych residency, and USCF does have Renee Binder, but Charles Scott at UC Davis is probably the #2 most well known name in forensics IMO (second of course to Resnick).

Doesn't mean you can't get good training at other places, but in terms of overall forensics prestige, its more about those individual people rather than the program name.

 

[Atreides]

I thought you had mentioned doing work in California in other threads, my mistake!

Also, apologies if OP's thread got derailed, was definitely not my intention. Regardless of what program we think is #1, I think pretty much everyone (myself included) thinks UC Davis should probably be added to OP's list.

No worries, I was in California for a few years but not living there currently (although who knows, non-zero chance I'll move back in the near future, especially if insurance starts doing away with telemedicine reimbursement).