Help Needed: Surgeon-Scientist or Surgeon?

[ChuckNorrisMD]

I am trying to decide whether to apply to MD-PhD programs or apply for straight MD programs. While I have have a strong research bent, my interest in surgery trumps my interest in research (I am not interested in pursuing a straight PhD at this time). I have had "1.5" research experiences and have also had several experiences related to a surgical career.

The MD-PhD Match data available via a link on SDN shows that a small percentage of MD-PhD students do match into surgery every year, but there are also several threads about the difficulty of being a good surgeon and running a lab, all in a day's work. Also, as lengthy and competitive as surgery residencies are, I am not sure I want to spend ~8 years in med/grad school only to have to spend ~5 more years in a surgery residency (and then, fellowship or postdoc, anyone?).

I would want my research interest to revolve around the development of new surgical instruments or procedures. There is not that much information out there about how new procedures are "invented." Are they developed in labs or in a clinical setting overtime? I can't imagine a patient who wants to be the first to have a new closure tested out on them. Also, what discipline would this kind of surgeon-scientist earn a PhD in?

I appreciate suggestions to my long-winded thoughts. Several people have told me the MD-PhD decision needs to be made based on what's right for me or after sleeping on it for a while, but how is a college kid really supposed to know what he or she wants exactly in a future career? I have also heard that MD-PhD helps a clinician develop more of a "scientific acumen" (there are even posts on this on SDN), but what does this really amount to and is it worth the four extra years of grad school?

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.

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[gstrub]

I am one of the candidates strongly considering a career in surgery, as I was when I applied. Several students from my program have matched in fantastic surgical residencies (UCSF NSG, Stanford plastics, etc).

Keep in mind that what you think you like, or will like, now while you are in college, will likely change. I say this because as you mature, you get a clearer sense of your priorities. For example, I started out very much interested in transplant surgery...it seemed like a perfect fit for research and surgery together. Now that I've worked on that service, talked to residents/attendings (and their family members), I know it's not for me, because I would have almost no time to be at home with a family (I am married now but was single when I started this whole thing).

Pursuing MD/PhD has a striking polarity between its positives and negatives, which you will find all over this board. It is long. It can be miserable. You will watch your friends match while you are still pipetting. However, you will have better training than anyone out there. Doors will open for you that would otherwise be closed. You will be more mature and be better prepared to make a decision about what field to pursue when you are a M3. It is free (technically).

So, my advice would be not to base your decision on the fact you think you like surgery, but know that yes, you can be very successful as a MD/PhD surgeon and you will be sought after by academic institutions. You can go into ANY medical field with a MD/PhD and be successful, but of course you will have varying degrees of actual research once you are an attending. You can also say F it at the end of the day and go into private practice...your hands are not tied. Make your decision based on your desire and enjoyment of doing research now. If you really do like it, you can complete the MD/PhD without going nuts. If you just sort of like research, or are just attracted to the idea of MD/PhD, I would say just go straight MD.
Hope this helps,
G

 

[Neuronix]

My rule of thumb is to see yourself in a majority research career as the person who runs a lab. If that's not your goal, you don't need a PhD.

Surgical procedures are developed by ideas and practice. They are not something you meticulously research, and even if you do by doing surgeries and sham surgeries on animals you don't need a PhD. The closest thing is to work on cell and molecular biology that impacts surgery. Invasive treatments for tumors, injections of new cells for different diseases, etc... That research is still mostly non-surgical and a PhD can benefit you to learn the cell and molecular biology necessary to bring that to the surgical table. If you're just talking about a new way to close or a new mechanical piece of equipment, that has little to do with a PhD, and you can test and develop things without it.

But don't take my word for it. Go ask a surgeon. That is if you can actually find one to ask questions. When I wanted to ask questions about a MD/PhD surgery career nobody actually had the time or interest to meet with me to answer my questions. That told me something.

 

[NeuroChaos]

Not much to say, as I personally do not know anything about the topic. But, here is a PI working in surgery, developed several techniques/tools for surgery with just a Ph.D

http://www.vhlab.umn.edu/atlas/index.shtml
http://www.vhlab.umn.edu/

 

[gstrub]

But don't take my word for it. Go ask a surgeon. That is if you can actually find one to ask questions. When I wanted to ask questions about a MD/PhD surgery career nobody actually had the time or interest to meet with me to answer my questions. That told me something.

Haha...now that's true!

PS when did you add that Onion link to your sig? It's one of my favorites...

 

[Neuronix]

PS when did you add that Onion link to your sig? It's one of my favorites...

You posted it in everyone forum recently and I loved it.