Help on Question No.6 on Application

[Lemon Tea]

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Hi,
I don't know if any of you had a similar experience but I don't know how I should answer this question.

Q: Has your education ever been interrupted or adversely affected due to conduct or academic performance? If so, please explain in the block below.

The reason I'm concerned with answering is question is because I was involved in a case of academic dishonesty during my sophomore year in college. I don't know if this is the right place to address this. I was told by peers that are applying for Medical or Dental school that you have to tell them about it even if they don't ask. It also does not show up on my transcript directly, but if the committee look closely they may notice that the F was not replaced by a better grade like it normally would have.

I don't know if I should mention it at all because my GPA is already pretty low. 3.0 Overall and 2.8 Science, and I haven't taken my MCAT yet (will take it in Sept.2009). If my MCAT scores will turn out high I guess it will be better, otherwise I really don't know if the committee will eliminate me just because I've made a mistake once.

Please give me some insight on what I could/should do, and also some suggestions on how I can make myself more competative.
I plan to take a few more classes to pull up my GPA, but I think the most I can do now is 2.9 Science. As for MCAT, I'm currently taking a prep class at Princeton so hopefully I can at least a 25. I have also been shadowing a podiatrist for 40 hours by now and I think I can get a pretty good letter of rec from him. But what else can I do to at least get an interview?

(sorry for the lengthy question, but I really need some advice!)

 

[PodunkUDPM]

Wow, you don't know if you should be dishonest about being dishonest. Doesn't look like you learned your lesson.

 

[j0ez0r]

Q: Has your education ever been interrupted or adversely affected due to conduct or academic performance? If so, please explain in the block below.

The way the question is worded in my opinion includes the realm of academic dishonesty. If it were me i would feel inclined to address the issue there, especially so its not found out for the first time at an interview. Of course the simple way to find out if you need to include this is just to call the aacpm application office.

 

[Lemon Tea]

Wow, you don't know if you should be dishonest about being dishonest. Doesn't look like you learned your lesson.

Of course I did, but I'm just don't know if I should address it here since the question itself was so vague. Please don't rub it in like this. I'm here because I really need some help on how to address this properly and get some suggestions to increase my chances.🙁

 

[Lemon Tea]

The way the question is worded in my opinion includes the realm of academic dishonesty. If it were me i would feel inclined to address the issue there, especially so its not found out for the first time at an interview. Of course the simple way to find out if you need to include this is just to call the aacpm application office.

Yeah, that's how I felt like when I first read the question too. But when I ask my friends that are applying for other professional schools they said I should just leave it out. So I was just confused, but I think you are right; I should address and it's still better than the committee finding out later on.

Thank you so much for your reply. If you don't mind, could you give me some suggestions on how I can make my application look better? 😛

 

[SkipeeB]

But when I ask my friends that are applying for other professional schools they said I should just leave it out.

Your friends are lame! 🙄 It is so much easier and will look a million times better if you are up front about everything. Otherwise you will probably always be worried if something is going to come up and they will find out. Then it would look like you are lying about lying and hadn't learned anything at all.

It's like when people don't disclose their past infractions with the law and then they show up in background checks. Way way way more terrifying than just stating it up front so they school knows what is coming.

Good luck!

 

[podpal]

What class is the "F" in? Please don't answer on this forum, it's too small and I don't want your confidentiality breached. If it's in a basic science, you can repeat the class, perhaps at a different school. I wouldn't go overboard with the dishonesty stuff on an application. Although, there are a LOT of dishonest pods out there, especially in administration, it might actually be a plus at some schools. You don't need to talk to the AACPM, they aren't going to interview you. Likewise, they will not help you get a residency and will leave you stranded if you come up short in that realm.
If it were me, I'd simply say that I received an "F" because it was too hard, repeated the class, and did much better the second time I took it. It shows that you are teachable and it may be a better strategy for gaining acceptance.
Focus on things u can do to demonstrate an interest in the field. Some things include, shadow a podiatrist in the field, see if there are any pods participating in races...like for runners, and go to the race and learn what they do. A lot of pod is sports medicine. Taping, padding, and shoe gear changes or modifications are important. Shadow an orthotist and learn how orthotics are made, the different types of orthotics, the materials used, and ask how different foot types require different orthotics/shoe modifications. Wound care is also a hot topic. Wound care includes debridement of the ulcer, application of a dressing..and there are a LOT, some to help fight infection, some to help dry the area, some to grow granulation tissue, and skin grafting options. You may visit a wound care center to learn more. Nurses working in this area can be a big help too. Geriatric care is another growing area of need. Important areas are diabetic patient care and neuropathy...loss of feeling in the feet, and PVD...peripheral vascular disease or loss of blood flow to the feet.
In interviews try to focus on your teachability, and your interest in various aspects of the field. Keep in mind that they will have many interviews, so a brief "detour" regarding how you spent time with runners/pods/orthotists can give you time to prevent too much attention to one single grade.

 

[PodunkUDPM]

It's ironic podpal that you say there are a lot of dishonest pods out there, like it's a bad thing, and then your advice to this person is to be dishonest. Maybe just because you are dishonest it seems that everyone else must be too.

 

[JEWmongous]

What class is the "F" in? Please don't answer on this forum, it's too small and I don't want your confidentiality breached. If it's in a basic science, you can repeat the class, perhaps at a different school. I wouldn't go overboard with the dishonesty stuff on an application. Although, there are a LOT of dishonest pods out there, especially in administration, it might actually be a plus at some schools. You don't need to talk to the AACPM, they aren't going to interview you. Likewise, they will not help you get a residency and will leave you stranded if you come up short in that realm.
If it were me, I'd simply say that I received an "F" because it was too hard, repeated the class, and did much better the second time I took it. It shows that you are teachable and it may be a better strategy for gaining acceptance.
Focus on things u can do to demonstrate an interest in the field. Some things include, shadow a podiatrist in the field, see if there are any pods participating in races...like for runners, and go to the race and learn what they do. A lot of pod is sports medicine. Taping, padding, and shoe gear changes or modifications are important. Shadow an orthotist and learn how orthotics are made, the different types of orthotics, the materials used, and ask how different foot types require different orthotics/shoe modifications. Wound care is also a hot topic. Wound care includes debridement of the ulcer, application of a dressing..and there are a LOT, some to help fight infection, some to help dry the area, some to grow granulation tissue, and skin grafting options. You may visit a wound care center to learn more. Nurses working in this area can be a big help too. Geriatric care is another growing area of need. Important areas are diabetic patient care and neuropathy...loss of feeling in the feet, and PVD...peripheral vascular disease or loss of blood flow to the feet.
In interviews try to focus on your teachability, and your interest in various aspects of the field. Keep in mind that they will have many interviews, so a brief "detour" regarding how you spent time with runners/pods/orthotists can give you time to prevent too much attention to one single grade.

You're supposed to show any record of academic dishonesty on the application sir/mam. The question has nothing to do with your interest in various areas of podiatry, or how you could help patients. I'm not even sure why you are going into geriatric care, PVD, podpal.

One is being dishonest by withholding the information, FYI.

To the OP, just state what happened on your app. Being honest is not difficult. You did what you did and you need to live with it. If it comes up in an interview, explain what happened, how you learned from it, etc. Whatever you do, do not lie. It's Bullshi*

 

[podpal]

This poor kid, Lemon tea, needs some Lemon aid. His/her grades are AWEFUL. He/she will need to show WHY he/she should be accepted into a professional medical school program. Showing dishonesty, along with crummy grades will likely cause the admissions person to FOCUS on these deficiencies. What do u want this poor kid to say, "Hi, I'm unethical, unteachable, not quite a go getter, but take me anyway."???? The colleges, EVERY college, HAS to be concerned with ATTRITION! No college wants to accept someone who will fail out in the first year, it's a big loss of revenue.

Being at such a disadvantage, I'd think he/she needs to direct the attention of the college admissions people AWAY FROM Grades. Moving to a direction of "how I am unethical" will NOT help. I wouldn't mention it, if that's at all possible. It's bad enough this person received an "F" as a final grade.

Personally, I am extremely ethical and hold multiple professional degrees. My strategy has been and continues to be...don't do anything ethically, morally, or academically improper and avoid these kinds of situations. Unfortunately this isn't this person's situation. I'm trying to make suggestions for a better acceptance strategy.

Will his/her dishonesty from eons ago result in future patient complications? NO, the two are not related. I'm suggesting a strategy for this poor kid to show that he/she deserves a seat in a professional program. Having a direction, in an interview is ALWAYS a good idea. For example...after the prof asks ?s they usually say, "do you have any ?s for me?" It would be good for a student to reply something like, "Yes, what areas of podiatry does your student body focus on?" If they say groups are involved with sports/running, orthotics, diabetes, wound care, etc. the student can then reply, "Oh, good! I learned a little bit about taping for runners at a race that I attended with a local podiatrist. I'd like to contribute to this area if I am accepted here." How can the student contribute? Research in the biomechanics department, attending races, etc.

Showing how the student can fit in to the program as well as the student body will help the admissions team to overlook a few faults. Being personable is a big plus too!

In the end, it's this student's call, as to how to fill out their application form. If I were on an admissions board, I'd be able to get past someones low gpa, but I'd have a problem with dishonesty. I'd hate to see this person lose their career shot because of a mistake.

 

[lyhrrus]

I don't believe anyone is advocating dishonesty, rather to be tactful about the response. For example, if your close uncle just died under the care of a physician, which of the following would you be most responsive to?

a) "Too bad he kicked the bucket."
b) "He's dead, deal."
c) "We tried all we could, but he passed away."
d) "I'm sorry for your loss."

I'm not saying there's a specific right way to address the issue (either the death or the dishonesty), but clearly some ways are better than others.

Lemon Tea, I think the best way for you to answer the question is to ask yourself why you did what you did, why you would not do it ever again (I hope), and what you learned from the situation. Turn this adverse situation into a positive, because those are the people who are most likely to succeed in professional school. Also, as podpal said, concentrate on your strengths. Don't hide this issue, but don't highlight it either.

 

[air bud]

This poor kid, Lemon tea, needs some Lemon aid. His/her grades are AWEFUL. He/she will need to show WHY he/she should be accepted into a professional medical school program. Showing dishonesty, along with crummy grades will likely cause the admissions person to FOCUS on these deficiencies. What do u want this poor kid to say, "Hi, I'm unethical, unteachable, not quite a go getter, but take me anyway."???? .

I agree with this. This is reality. Not everything works out hunky dory and everyone has excuses.

Also, for for those of you living in candyland, here in the real world there are shades of gray.

PADPM would have reached through the internet and ripped your throats out if you were showing him the disrespect some of you are showing podpal

 

[JEWmongous]

Lemon Tea, you committed academic dishonesty, yes? If so, list it on your application. If you feel like cheating the system and other applicants, then don't list it.

I would imagine you would still get some interviews even with this red flag. It may not be scholl/azpod/dmu, but I'm sure a few of the others would give you an interview with a decent mcat score. You can use the interview to explain what you did, what you learned, matured, and move on.

Podpal: The colleges, EVERY college, HAS to be concerned with ATTRITION! No college wants to accept someone who will fail out in the first year, it's a big loss of revenue

I don't feel this is the case, in fact it's the reverse. A few of the schools accept big classes knowing full well that a number of students will fail out. Look at OCPM, they have the biggest class - 125 students - and a lot won't make it through. Schools get the tuition dollars for that year or two. They (some pod schools) even make 5 year plans to get an extra year of $ out of students who aren't doing well academically/health issues/etc. I never heard of 5 year programs at MD/DO schools. Why don't you think most of the pod programs never advertise their attrition???

 

[podpal]

Regarding Attrition, it is a concern. The higher the percent the worse it looks for the college. If there are 2 applicants vying for the same slot, the one who is most likely to make it through the program will most likely get that slot. The goals of the colleges must be to maintain viable educational programs. The goals of professional colleges include producing ethical, well educated professionals to best serve the needs of the community. When students drop out, the goals of the schools are not met.

 

[JEWmongous]

Regarding Attrition, it is a concern. The higher the percent the worse it looks for the college. If there are 2 applicants vying for the same slot, the one who is most likely to make it through the program will most likely get that slot. The goals of the colleges must be to maintain viable educational programs. The goals of professional colleges include producing ethical, well educated professionals to best serve the needs of the community. When students drop out, the goals of the schools are not met.

I think you are living in a fairytale land of puppy dogs and gumdrops. The goals of the school are not met? Some programs lose about 30% of their students. Hell, even Barry use to lose half their class a few years back! Maybe you don't see it but a number of schools care more about making money than making DPM's. The attrition thing has been going on for a while - it is not too difficult to understand that people with below 20 MCAT and sub 3.0 GPA are going to struggle in pod school.

2nd Example, people can get into CSPM with a 16 MCAT (18 minimum next year). These are AWFUL scores and the school is accepting these, they sure as hell know kids are going to have a hell of a time making it through their program. The average MCAT score of ANYONE who just sits for the MCAT is 24. A 16??? That's like writing your name on the SAT.

 

[podpal]

Have you discussed attrition with your college educators? I'd be surprised to find that they simply do not care about it. Perhaps you should sit down with your educators someday and attempt to understand the dynamics that are involved in running the school.

The students who left podiatry, from my school eons ago, generally left to pursue other careers. As was mentioned earlier, there are provisions to help struggling students, such as an opportunity to complete the 4 year requirement in 5 years, depending upon circumstances. The schools go out of their way to help academically needy students. It "appears" that they want students to remain in the program.

Grades are only important to a degree. Thank god they aren't the be all and end all in the admissions decision. A LOT of good pods wouldn't be in practice today if that were the case! Simply because one doesn't get a high MCAT score or has a low GPA doesn't mean they will do poorly in pod school. This is only ONE factor in the admissions decisions process.

I do agree with you on one point, however. Financial incentive is a big goal of the pod schools. This "may" drive some schools to accept students who are "at risk" for leaving the program.

Regardless of reasons educators use to make decisions, I simply replied to this thread because this kid, Lemon Tea, doesn't have a great chance of getting accepted and I'd hate to see him/her lose their one chance at a professional degree because of a mistake made years ago.

 

[PADPM]

This poor kid, Lemon tea, needs some Lemon aid. His/her grades are AWEFUL. He/she will need to show WHY he/she should be accepted into a professional medical school program. Showing dishonesty, along with crummy grades will likely cause the admissions person to FOCUS on these deficiencies. What do u want this poor kid to say, "Hi, I'm unethical, unteachable, not quite a go getter, but take me anyway."???? The colleges, EVERY college, HAS to be concerned with ATTRITION! No college wants to accept someone who will fail out in the first year, it's a big loss of revenue.

Being at such a disadvantage, I'd think he/she needs to direct the attention of the college admissions people AWAY FROM Grades. Moving to a direction of "how I am unethical" will NOT help. I wouldn't mention it, if that's at all possible. It's bad enough this person received an "F" as a final grade.

Personally, I am extremely ethical and hold multiple professional degrees. My strategy has been and continues to be...don't do anything ethically, morally, or academically improper and avoid these kinds of situations. Unfortunately this isn't this person's situation. I'm trying to make suggestions for a better acceptance strategy.

Will his/her dishonesty from eons ago result in future patient complications? NO, the two are not related. I'm suggesting a strategy for this poor kid to show that he/she deserves a seat in a professional program. Having a direction, in an interview is ALWAYS a good idea. For example...after the prof asks ?s they usually say, "do you have any ?s for me?" It would be good for a student to reply something like, "Yes, what areas of podiatry does your student body focus on?" If they say groups are involved with sports/running, orthotics, diabetes, wound care, etc. the student can then reply, "Oh, good! I learned a little bit about taping for runners at a race that I attended with a local podiatrist. I'd like to contribute to this area if I am accepted here." How can the student contribute? Research in the biomechanics department, attending races, etc.

Showing how the student can fit in to the program as well as the student body will help the admissions team to overlook a few faults. Being personable is a big plus too!

In the end, it's this student's call, as to how to fill out their application form. If I were on an admissions board, I'd be able to get past someones low gpa, but I'd have a problem with dishonesty. I'd hate to see this person lose their career shot because of a mistake.

This may not be the popular answer, but here it goes.

If this "poor kid's" grades are not so great and his past conduct has been questionable ethically since he has already exhibited dishonesty, maybe, just maybe he shouldn't be part of OUR profession.

Quite simply, not everyone should be accepted to our schools. I believe we need to raise the bar and our standards. A great way to start is to possibly not accept students with a history of poor grades and ethical misconduct.

Leopards don't usually change their spots from my experience, so why not be a little more select in the process. We already have enough dishonest DPM's in existence, why invite more???

Sorry, I know that everyone is going to say that everyone deserves a second chance, etc., etc. However, our profession will never gain respect until we raise the bar.

 

[air bud]

the truth hurts

 

[podsoon]

I am interested to know what happened. Do POD schools even do a check?

Also what about Academic Dishonesty during high school?

 

[Podfather]

This poor kid, Lemon tea, needs some Lemon aid. His/her grades are AWEFUL. He/she will need to show WHY he/she should be accepted into a professional medical school program. Showing dishonesty, along with crummy grades will likely cause the admissions person to FOCUS on these deficiencies. What do u want this poor kid to say, "Hi, I'm unethical, unteachable, not quite a go getter, but take me anyway."???? The colleges, EVERY college, HAS to be concerned with ATTRITION! No college wants to accept someone who will fail out in the first year, it's a big loss of revenue.

Being at such a disadvantage, I'd think he/she needs to direct the attention of the college admissions people AWAY FROM Grades. Moving to a direction of "how I am unethical" will NOT help. I wouldn't mention it, if that's at all possible. It's bad enough this person received an "F" as a final grade.

Personally, I am extremely ethical and hold multiple professional degrees. My strategy has been and continues to be...don't do anything ethically, morally, or academically improper and avoid these kinds of situations. Unfortunately this isn't this person's situation. I'm trying to make suggestions for a better acceptance strategy.

Will his/her dishonesty from eons ago result in future patient complications? NO, the two are not related. I'm suggesting a strategy for this poor kid to show that he/she deserves a seat in a professional program. Having a direction, in an interview is ALWAYS a good idea. For example...after the prof asks ?s they usually say, "do you have any ?s for me?" It would be good for a student to reply something like, "Yes, what areas of podiatry does your student body focus on?" If they say groups are involved with sports/running, orthotics, diabetes, wound care, etc. the student can then reply, "Oh, good! I learned a little bit about taping for runners at a race that I attended with a local podiatrist. I'd like to contribute to this area if I am accepted here." How can the student contribute? Research in the biomechanics department, attending races, etc.

Showing how the student can fit in to the program as well as the student body will help the admissions team to overlook a few faults. Being personable is a big plus too!

In the end, it's this student's call, as to how to fill out their application form. If I were on an admissions board, I'd be able to get past someones low gpa, but I'd have a problem with dishonesty. I'd hate to see this person lose their career shot because of a mistake.

This is not an attack on Lemon Tea. Here we have an applicant with below average grades, hasn't taken the MCATs, and had an incident of bad judgement. Your concern is helping him get accepted. My concern is for Lemon Tea. Is he making a mistake? If accepted, will he make it? Tuition and expenses are a lot and should not be gambled with. Some of these students (not specifically Lemon Tea) are welcomed to DPM schools and in my opinion unfairly given false hope. Some repeat a year, others fail NBPMEs, some do not match a residency, and others never have a satisfying career. It is not mean spirited to have applicants take an honest look at themselves. How does a an average or poor student expect to succeed in professional school? What has changed? Perhaps graduate school classes to prove to the schools and more importantly to themselves that they have improved is better advice.

Lastly my second concern is for the profession. Until we honestly look at who we are admitting many of the issues that plague the profession will never go away.

 

[347932]

Lastly my second concern is for the profession. Until we honestly look at who we are admitting many of the issues that plague the profession will never go away.

I agree. This is not just in Podiatry School, however. I helped the local medical school with interviewing applicants for several years and I couldn't BELIEVE some of the students that were accepted and some that were passed over. I had full access to their applications and some of the shining stars were just not asked to matriculate. It wasn't a matter that they were accepted and didn't choose to attend. They weren't even asked. I even went so far as to check whether they had withdrawn their applications due to being accepted elsewhere.

Every branch/specialty in medicine has a few who probably shouldn't have made it through. Podiatry is, and always will be, under the microscope, so perhaps we are more sensitive to this than others. Case in point is that Ortho guy who blasted Podiatrists and is now being investigated by the APMA.

 

[Podfather]

I agree. This is not just in Podiatry School, however. I helped the local medical school with interviewing applicants for several years and I couldn't BELIEVE some of the students that were accepted and some that were passed over. I had full access to their applications and some of the shining stars were just not asked to matriculate. It wasn't a matter that they were accepted and didn't choose to attend. They weren't even asked. I even went so far as to check whether they had withdrawn their applications due to being accepted elsewhere.

I have a few friends (mostly MDs, and 1 DPM) who are on the admissions committees at well known medical schools. What you described is just the opposite at their institutions. Their complaint is that they have so many qualified applicants it is hard to make the cut. They have described applicants with a 4.0, top notch MCATs, AND time in the Peace Corp. Individuals who took time after college even when they could have been easily accepted to volunteer at clinics, hospitals to ensure they were truly passionate about medicine.

Every branch/specialty in medicine has a few who probably shouldn't have made it through. Podiatry is, and always will be, under the microscope, so perhaps we are more sensitive to this than others. Case in point is that Ortho guy who blasted Podiatrists and is now being investigated by the APMA.

Yes there are some bad MD/DO graduates. Mostly for personality, communication, or lack of clinical decision making issues. In our profession there are unfortunately people who have been accepted (mostly an injustice to them and their future patients) who never had a chance to make it. When they slide through it hurts us all. When someone doesn't match for these reasons we then believe it's all about residency shortages and not the real reason. When NBPME failures occur it's the education. When in fact they should have never been accepted and may have contributed in another field.

 

[347932]

Yes there are some bad MD/DO graduates. Mostly for personality, communication, or lack of clinical decision making issues. In our profession there are unfortunately people who have been accepted (mostly an injustice to them and their future patients) who never had a chance to make it. When they slide through it hurts us all. When someone doesn't match for these reasons we then believe it's all about residency shortages and not the real reason. When NBPME failures occur it's the education. When in fact they should have never been accepted and may have contributed in another field.

Can't argue you with that at all.

 

[air bud]

Yes there are some bad MD/DO graduates. Mostly for personality, communication, or lack of clinical decision making issues. In our profession there are unfortunately people who have been accepted (mostly an injustice to them and their future patients) who never had a chance to make it. When they slide through it hurts us all. When someone doesn't match for these reasons we then believe it's all about residency shortages and not the real reason. When NBPME failures occur it's the education. When in fact they should have never been accepted and may have contributed in another field.

👍

 

[ckjets]

Lemontea, I am going to be honest and blunt, don't apply to Temple or any other podiatry school, the question is simple and very clear; if you have been caught cheating then respond honestly to the question. Yes this is a small forum and I am putting this post out there to make the admissions office here at Temple aware you exist. One thing I can't stand is dishonesty. This profession is on it's way up and we don't need people like you to drag us down; my advice to you is just quit while ur ahead and go to business school because even if you did get admitted into any of the 9 programs, and it would be a shame if you did, you are likely to flunk out with your numbers and lose at least 50k and year of your life. Just like PADPM said, joining pod school is not a right and our schools are not for everyone. with all due respect to podpal, if he is not teachable then we've got a problem. Our compassion should be for patients not for dishonest students who want to become doctors who will put patients' health at risk and then cover their tracks.

 

[doc1107]

Ckjets- don't know why you brought this tread back up, but it won't matter if you tell the temple admissions office. The OP posted this in 2009, he/she has already applied to Pod school, either in the 2009-2010 cycle or this current cycle.

 

[ckjets]

scary, I did not look at the original date, I just looked at the last post and it was posted a month ago. All we can do from now on is talk these "merciful" podiatrists into their senses. They are not doing society a favor when they encourage dishonesty; certainly they are not doing podiatry a favor either.

 

[doc1107]

scary, I did not look at the original date, I just looked at the last post and it was posted a month ago. All we can do from now on is talk these "merciful" podiatrists into their senses. They are not doing society a favor when they encourage dishonesty; certainly they are not doing podiatry a favor either.

Yeah I can understand the confusion about the dates. Hopefully you didn't tell any admissions office since some regular applicants may be adversely affected by that.

And, I don't know.. you can't really paint everyone with the same paint brush. We don't know the exact nature of the OP's cheating. It could have been very extreme or it could have been something totally stupid and small.

For example: if you just type in academic dishonesty onto search, you will see stories of hardcore cheating with intent and stories of "cheating" that borders on bad circumstances