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southerndoc

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Using those model’s estimates, Sweden’s number of confirmed cases (320,098 as of today) in their overall population of (10.23 million) suggests that they are probably around 19-25% of their population already infected.
Your numbers aren't adding up. 320,098/10,099,265=3.2%
EDIT: You're using predictive modeling. Nevermind.

I thought you were originally asking about articles referencing what is needed to obtain herd immunity. The article citing 15% seroprevalence was SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals (it's from August, so a little old).

Regardless, my point was that the 70% prevalence to obtain herd immunity is nowhere near that. My point wasn't 15 vs 19%.
 

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With 300k deaths it should mean about 50% of the US population has been infected, or about 150 million people. We are hopefully nearly there and perhaps the vaccine will give us an additional boost to get over the line quicker.

The largest infection fatality rate studies still estimate about 1 to 1.5 percent mortality, all comers, in high income nations.

That would mean 300k deaths = 30 million infected, still less than 10% of the US population.

You can argue those studies are flawed and IFR is much lower- but it’s just speculation.
 
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southerndoc

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The number of 15% is from May and outdated. Relying solely on antibody testing is also potentially unreliable for determining prior exposure/infection or underlying immunity.

“This is especially clear in Sweden, where the authorities publicly predicted 40% seroconversion in Stockholm by May 2020; the actual IgG seroprevalence was around 15%.”

The other article you posted suggested herd immunity at 50-67%, not 70%. That also was with the assumption of no underlying immunity. I would think the number would be even lower given some underlying population immunity.
The more you post, the less I believe your argument.
 
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The true total number of cases is likely higher than confirmed cases by a factor of 6-9. Your estimate of 2-2.5 is an underestimation.

The reinfection rate is likely negligible.

Where are you getting 15 in your math? There are 320,098 confirmed cases as of today in Sweden, which is about 3% of their population.
My math is off actually, my bad. I still believe the true rate is closer to 2-3 than 6-9. No proof for either of our arguments, really. A factor of 6 in the US would mean 100 million. I think it's closer to 40-50 million.
 

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It’s all about the IFR. 300000 deaths and .5% IFR would mean 60 million infections (~20%). 1% means 30 million infections (10%). I’d bet the real numbers are somewhere in between that.

While we may not know the “true” IFR, keep in mind .2% of NJ has died from COVID. So unless you think 100% of NJ has had it, the IFR is higher then .2, and probably higher then .4-.5%.
 
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thegenius

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It seems like they don't even think they've done the right thing. They are asking for help from their neighbors. HCWs are leaving in record numbers as cases surge. Time will tell.

I just looked at Sweden's numbers of Worldometers. It's interesting how their daily new cases has not yet plateaued and still looks like it's going up a little, yet their daily new deaths has gone down considerably. Usually deaths is a lagging metric to daily new cases, not this way.
 

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I know, it’s unbelievable.

No one needs to have a 200 person wedding right now or a 20 person family dinner. Of course people are going to yell about freedom. But then the most vulnerable people get infected, sick and die...nursing assistants, janitors, bus drivers, grocery store clerks, etc. Plus people who need care are unable to get the care they need. "Elective" cancer surgeries being cancelled because there’s no room in hospitals for example. It’s truly horrific that 3,000 people are dying each day here and people are like shrug, let’s just do nothing, hurry up and let more people die so that we can reach immunity.

I had to attend a family member’s funeral online that died from Covid, truly heart breaking.

And It’s even more callus when physicians have these thoughts.
 
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GeneralVeers

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I don't understand. In my state we have universal masking for all businesses, and restaurants are down to 25% capacity and require reservations. No gatherings permitted more than 10 people. Cases are going up and deaths are steady. What more should the government do? As I said, sometimes doing nothing is the best alternative. There may be no action the government can take at this time that will impact the spread of COVID.
 
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Rekt

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I don't understand. In my state we have universal masking for all businesses, and restaurants are down to 25% capacity and require reservations. No gatherings permitted more than 10 people. Cases are going up and deaths are steady. What more should the government do? As I said, sometimes doing nothing is the best alternative. There may be no action the government can take at this time that will impact the spread of COVID.

Yeah everybody on here just says the US is the worst country in the world but offers zero realistic solutions. In my state we've had zero changes in our regulations regarding restrictions or masking since April and we have the same roller coaster graph just like every other state.
 

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Yeah everybody on here just says the US is the worst country in the world but offers zero realistic solutions. In my state we've had zero changes in our regulations regarding restrictions or masking since April and we have the same roller coaster graph just like every other state.

But OMG cases are GOING UP! We have to DO SOMETHING!
 

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I am not arguing for doing nothing, but most states of the US have the exact same curves. The same curves regardless of what rules each state enforced. Look at California. Their government "has done a lot", but do not have better outcomes than other less restrictive states. All of the large European nations have similar curves (and some (Spain, Italy, UK) with worse mortalities per population) as the US and their governments "did a lot". No human has control over this thing.
 
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wamcp

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I am not arguing for doing nothing, but most states of the US have the exact same curves. The same curves regardless of what rules each state enforced. Look at California. Their government "has done a lot", but do not have better outcomes than other less restrictive states. All of the large European nations have similar curves (and some (Spain, Italy, UK) with worse mortalities per population) as the US and their governments "did a lot". No human has control over this thing.
Well you just don't understand, lockdowns aren't working because humans fail to obey

/s

 
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GeneralVeers

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Well you just don't understand, lockdowns aren't working because humans fail to obey

/s

As our governor lectures us every week....if only we listened and complied with his orders we could beat this. Therefore harsher action may be necessary.....
 
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wamcp

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I know, it’s unbelievable.

No one needs to have a 200 person wedding right now or a 20 person family dinner. Of course people are going to yell about freedom. But then the most vulnerable people get infected, sick and die...nursing assistants, janitors, bus drivers, grocery store clerks, etc. Plus people who need care are unable to get the care they need. "Elective" cancer surgeries being cancelled because there’s no room in hospitals for example. It’s truly horrific that 3,000 people are dying each day here and people are like shrug, let’s just do nothing, hurry up and let more people die so that we can reach immunity.

I had to attend a family member’s funeral online that died from Covid, truly heart breaking.

And It’s even more callus when physicians have these thoughts.

It's even more callous to ignore the negative impacts of lockdowns vs actual deaths due to COVID19 infection/life expectancy impact.

"The average age at death for those who died with Covid-19 in Scotland was 79 for men and 84 for women. Elsewhere in the NRS report it showed that life expectancy in Scotland is 77.1 for males and 81.1 for females." Covid death figures: 10 things we've learned

Large scale artificially induced unemployment, businesses destroyed The Effect of Lockdown Measures on Unemployment

Government repression/crushing of protests and increase in riots/unrest/looting People across Italy violently protested new lockdown measures imposed after a spike in COVID-19 cases, setting fires and looting luxury stores Protesters against COVID-19 restrictions clash with police in Spanish cities Chile police using Covid-19 quarantine as pretext to crush protest, activists say

Suicides, depression, anxiety https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/11/23/covid-pandemic-rise-suicides/

Millions of increased deaths due to starvation thanks to artificial economic lockdowns https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ds-millions-people-toward-starvation-poverty/

Massive plummet in preventive care, cancer screening which will lead to non-covid deaths in the future https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7436906/

And all this for what? When less restrictive states like Florida perform better in mortality AND economy, better than restrictive states like Illinois, what was the benefit from all this? https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/
 
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As our governor lectures us every week....if only we listened and complied with his orders we could beat this. Therefore harsher action may be necessary.....

Maybe these politicians shouldn't be so hypocritical. Do as I say, not as I do, right?



Many in the Denver community are furious as — after urging his residents to stay home and not gather with family — Mayor Michael Hancock flew to Houston Wednesday, then traveled to Mississippi to spend Thanksgiving with his daughter.

A week ago, Denver was placed under Level Red COVID-19 restrictions, the state's second most severe level. Under Level Red, all personal gatherings beyond immediate households are prohibited, including Thanksgiving celebrations.

Just seven days ago, Hancock sent an email to city staff that read, “with the continued rise in cases, I’m urging you to refrain from travel this Thanksgiving holiday. For my family that means cancelling our traditional gathering of our extended family.”

At a Nov. 13 conference, Polis said visiting family for the holidays without quarantining for two weeks prior is akin to holding "a loaded pistol to Grandma's head,” adding that one in 20 hospitalized with COVID-19 will die.


New fallout on Wednesday evening over the two photos obtained exclusively by FOX 11 Tuesday night showing Governor Gavin Newsom dining at the luxurious French Laundry restaurant in Napa for the birthday dinner of well-known lobbyist Jason Kinney.

Newsom said he realized as soon as he sat down at the outdoor table that the group was larger than he had expected to celebrate the 50th birthday of Jason Kinney, a political adviser that Newsom said he has known for 20 years.

Not only do they call into question Governor Newsom's explanation that the dinner was outside they also reveal that two high-level members of the California Medical Association were there at the dinner with the governor and that’s sparking outrage.

Neither of them, as a matter of fact, no one at the table was wearing a mask or social-distancing despite the CMA funding an ad campaign this year urging people to wear masks.


DC Mayor Muriel Bowser traveled to Delaware for a Biden victory party, but didn’t follow her own quarantine protocols upon return. The Mayor attended Biden's victory speech in Wilmington, DE. Delaware is on the Mayor’s list of “High Risk” states which would require quarantine after returning. Bowser staff says the trip was “essential travel” exempted under Mayor’s order.


New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo canceled his Thanksgiving plans after facing criticism for planning to have a holiday meal with his mother amid escalating numbers of Covid-19 cases.

On Monday, Cuomo told WAMC's radio host Alan Chartock that his 89-year-old mother, Matilda Cuomo, was planning on traveling to join him in Albany, along with two of his daughters, for the holiday.
"My mom is gonna come up and two of my girls, is the current plan," Cuomo said.

Later in the interview -- as well as during his news conference earlier in the day -- Cuomo warned New Yorkers who plan on holding Thanksgiving celebrations as usual that it was dangerous given that the virus can spread in large indoor gatherings.


When the news networks called the presidential race for Joe Biden recently, Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker took a victory lap through the streets of Chicago surrounded by other jubilant Democrats. He was out and about just days after being exposed to COVID-19 and while his public health director was telling everyday citizens to quarantine for 14 days following exposure, even after a negative test.


During his daily coronavirus news performance, just a few days after urging Illinoisans to "please travel only if necessary," Gov. Pritzker and his wife and children traveled from Chicago to their $12-million Florida horse farm for Thanksgiving.


Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot celebrated Joe Biden’s election win in a street party, without a mask. The following week, she ordered a stay-at-home advisory and urged cancellation of all Thanksgiving plans.


Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot went to her hairstylist for a trim despite a state order closing down all salons. Lightfoot was criticized for her actions after previously stating in one of her public service announcements that “getting your roots done is not essential." The mayor said in defense of her haircut during a press conference “I’m the public face of this city. I’m on national media and I’m out in the public eye.”


House Speaker Nancy Pelosi got her hair done at a San Francisco salon — in spite of local coronavirus rules barring indoor personal-care services, Fox News reported. Hair salons and barbershops in San Francisco have been shuttered since March, and officials on Monday gave the OK to reopen, but for outdoor service only. Salon owner Erica Kious called the congresswoman’s visit “a slap in the face.”


Sen. Dianne Feinstein, who has called for nationwide mask mandates, was seen walking maskless through an airport in September and again in the hallway of the Capitol last week. The clip that went viral on Twitter shows her before the hearing, out in the hallway, **talking in close proximity with two gentlemen who were both wearing masks, while she was not.**


Sen. Chuck Schumer also partied for Biden maskless. In the video, **without a mask, he sings** 'Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye' with Biden supporters in Times Square.
 
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DoctwoB

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We absolutely should call out politicians on their hypocrisy. That doesn’t mean containment measures are unnecessary or ineffective. In fact, they’re probably in sufficiently strict, which is why China and dozens of other nations have things under control and we do not.

This is a race against time. We have vaccines, we just need to try to minimize deaths until they can be manufactured and distributed.
 
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GeneralVeers

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We absolutely should call out politicians on their hypocrisy. That doesn’t mean containment measures are unnecessary or ineffective. In fact, they’re probably in sufficiently strict, which is why China and dozens of other nations have things under control and we do not.

This is a race against time. We have vaccines, we just need to try to minimize deaths until they can be manufactured and distributed.

What more would you have done?
 
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DoctwoB

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Coherent orders from the White House on down for universal masking. Enforced stay at home orders in high prevalence areas. Shut down retail in high prevalence areas.

Yes these measures aren’t perfect. Europe has had a spike in cases despite more precautions then we’ve taken. But the alternative (a 9/11 every day) is not one that we can accept when the curve can be bent downwards.
 
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GeneralVeers

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Coherent orders from the White House on down for universal masking. Enforced stay at home orders in high prevalence areas. Shut down retail in high prevalence areas.

Yes these measures aren’t perfect. Europe has had a spike in cases despite more precautions then we’ve taken. But the alternative (a 9/11 every day) is not one that we can accept when the curve can be bent downwards.

We've discussed ad nauseum why in a Federalist structure like the US, forced lockdowns can't be implemented.
 
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BAM!

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I am not arguing for doing nothing, but most states of the US have the exact same curves. The same curves regardless of what rules each state enforced. Look at California. Their government "has done a lot", but do not have better outcomes than other less restrictive states. All of the large European nations have similar curves (and some (Spain, Italy, UK) with worse mortalities per population) as the US and their governments "did a lot". No human has control over this thing.
Here's why it's spreading in California:
1608017834228.png
People aren't following the rules. Oh wait, that one kid in front is wearing a mask.
 

GeneralVeers

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Here's why it's spreading in California:
View attachment 325103
People aren't following the rules. Oh wait, that one kid in front is wearing a mask.

No it's spreading because that's what respiratory viruses do. Why did it spread in Italy, France, and Spain who all presumably had better lockdowns and masking than us?
 
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No it's spreading because that's what respiratory viruses do. Why did it spread in Italy, France, and Spain who all presumably had better lockdowns and masking than us?
Mask mandates and stay at home orders don't work when 25% of the country refuse to wear masks and insist on gathering in large groups. Just like antibiotic prescriptions and antihypertensive regimens don't work when your patients don't take them.
 
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GeneralVeers

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Mask mandates and stay at home orders don't work when 25% of the country refuse to wear masks and insist on gathering in large groups. Just like antibiotic prescriptions and antihypertensive regimens don't work when your patients don't take them.
So if all the countries are having spread for not following the rules, why do we keep harping on people not following the rules? It seems a universal characteristic of Western civilization, not just an American problem.
 

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It's the standard conservative solution to bolstering the argument against government, ported into higher than usual stakes arena. Take a problem that can only be effectively dealt with at the national level, wait until someone proposes a solution that requires the federal government to intervene. As soon as that proposal starts gaining headway, begin a two pronged front to stop it. Front 1: remove mission critical elements through the legislative mechanism. Front 2: Begin a nation-wide and highly coordinated multimodal PR campaign to undercut public support among the people that would benefit from the intervention. After successfully neutering the intervention, start crowing about how the federal government can't possibly do anything beneficial and should just stay out of the way.

We lost the chance to deal effectively with COVID the moment DT decided not to wear a mask. Or maybe the years worth of moments when we decided that public health was some commie plot that killed our ability to be competitive internationally so we've systematically defunded public health at federal, state, and local levels. But to pretend like the top branch of the government actively downplaying both the severity of COVID-19 and actively campaigning against it's most effective method of stopping transmission didn't lead us to where we are today is bullsh*t.
 
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turkeyjerky

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It's the standard conservative solution to bolstering the argument against government, ported into higher than usual stakes arena. Take a problem that can only be effectively dealt with at the national level, wait until someone proposes a solution that requires the federal government to intervene. As soon as that proposal starts gaining headway, begin a two pronged front to stop it. Front 1: remove mission critical elements through the legislative mechanism. Front 2: Begin a nation-wide and highly coordinated multimodal PR campaign to undercut public support among the people that would benefit from the intervention. After successfully neutering the intervention, start crowing about how the federal government can't possibly do anything beneficial and should just stay out of the way.

We lost the chance to deal effectively with COVID the moment DT decided not to wear a mask. Or maybe the years worth of moments when we decided that public health was some commie plot that killed our ability to be competitive internationally so we've systematically defunded public health at federal, state, and local levels. But to pretend like the top branch of the government actively downplaying both the severity of COVID-19 and actively campaigning against it's most effective method of stopping transmission didn't lead us to where we are today is bullsh*t.

Mic dropped.

You've hit the nail on the head for why trump solidified his place as the worst president in history (despite a largely unremarkable, if disgusting, previous tenure).
 
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BAM!

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It's the standard conservative solution to bolstering the argument against government, ported into higher than usual stakes arena. Take a problem that can only be effectively dealt with at the national level, wait until someone proposes a solution that requires the federal government to intervene. As soon as that proposal starts gaining headway, begin a two pronged front to stop it. Front 1: remove mission critical elements through the legislative mechanism. Front 2: Begin a nation-wide and highly coordinated multimodal PR campaign to undercut public support among the people that would benefit from the intervention. After successfully neutering the intervention, start crowing about how the federal government can't possibly do anything beneficial and should just stay out of the way.

We lost the chance to deal effectively with COVID the moment DT decided not to wear a mask. Or maybe the years worth of moments when we decided that public health was some commie plot that killed our ability to be competitive internationally so we've systematically defunded public health at federal, state, and local levels. But to pretend like the top branch of the government actively downplaying both the severity of COVID-19 and actively campaigning against it's most effective method of stopping transmission didn't lead us to where we are today is bullsh*t.

I bet he decided against wearing a mask simply for the photo ops. He clearly does not want his legacy sealed as the only president wearing a mask in the photo albums.

Could you imagine being an anti-masker lemming following that?!
 

GeneralVeers

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Hmm why no mods questioning political comments? Oh wait you are all CNN and had a conference call to only censor conservative thought.
 
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WilcoWorld

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Hmm why no mods questioning political comments? Oh wait you are all CNN and had a conference call to only censor conservative thought.
Where was your concern after this post?

Maybe these politicians shouldn't be so hypocritical. Do as I say, not as I do, right?



Many in the Denver community are furious as — after urging his residents to stay home and not gather with family — Mayor Michael Hancock flew to Houston Wednesday, then traveled to Mississippi to spend Thanksgiving with his daughter.

A week ago, Denver was placed under Level Red COVID-19 restrictions, the state's second most severe level. Under Level Red, all personal gatherings beyond immediate households are prohibited, including Thanksgiving celebrations.

Just seven days ago, Hancock sent an email to city staff that read, “with the continued rise in cases, I’m urging you to refrain from travel this Thanksgiving holiday. For my family that means cancelling our traditional gathering of our extended family.”

At a Nov. 13 conference, Polis said visiting family for the holidays without quarantining for two weeks prior is akin to holding "a loaded pistol to Grandma's head,” adding that one in 20 hospitalized with COVID-19 will die.


New fallout on Wednesday evening over the two photos obtained exclusively by FOX 11 Tuesday night showing Governor Gavin Newsom dining at the luxurious French Laundry restaurant in Napa for the birthday dinner of well-known lobbyist Jason Kinney.

Newsom said he realized as soon as he sat down at the outdoor table that the group was larger than he had expected to celebrate the 50th birthday of Jason Kinney, a political adviser that Newsom said he has known for 20 years.

Not only do they call into question Governor Newsom's explanation that the dinner was outside they also reveal that two high-level members of the California Medical Association were there at the dinner with the governor and that’s sparking outrage.

Neither of them, as a matter of fact, no one at the table was wearing a mask or social-distancing despite the CMA funding an ad campaign this year urging people to wear masks.


DC Mayor Muriel Bowser traveled to Delaware for a Biden victory party, but didn’t follow her own quarantine protocols upon return. The Mayor attended Biden's victory speech in Wilmington, DE. Delaware is on the Mayor’s list of “High Risk” states which would require quarantine after returning. Bowser staff says the trip was “essential travel” exempted under Mayor’s order.


New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo canceled his Thanksgiving plans after facing criticism for planning to have a holiday meal with his mother amid escalating numbers of Covid-19 cases.

On Monday, Cuomo told WAMC's radio host Alan Chartock that his 89-year-old mother, Matilda Cuomo, was planning on traveling to join him in Albany, along with two of his daughters, for the holiday.
"My mom is gonna come up and two of my girls, is the current plan," Cuomo said.

Later in the interview -- as well as during his news conference earlier in the day -- Cuomo warned New Yorkers who plan on holding Thanksgiving celebrations as usual that it was dangerous given that the virus can spread in large indoor gatherings.


When the news networks called the presidential race for Joe Biden recently, Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker took a victory lap through the streets of Chicago surrounded by other jubilant Democrats. He was out and about just days after being exposed to COVID-19 and while his public health director was telling everyday citizens to quarantine for 14 days following exposure, even after a negative test.


During his daily coronavirus news performance, just a few days after urging Illinoisans to "please travel only if necessary," Gov. Pritzker and his wife and children traveled from Chicago to their $12-million Florida horse farm for Thanksgiving.


Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot celebrated Joe Biden’s election win in a street party, without a mask. The following week, she ordered a stay-at-home advisory and urged cancellation of all Thanksgiving plans.


Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot went to her hairstylist for a trim despite a state order closing down all salons. Lightfoot was criticized for her actions after previously stating in one of her public service announcements that “getting your roots done is not essential." The mayor said in defense of her haircut during a press conference “I’m the public face of this city. I’m on national media and I’m out in the public eye.”


House Speaker Nancy Pelosi got her hair done at a San Francisco salon — in spite of local coronavirus rules barring indoor personal-care services, Fox News reported. Hair salons and barbershops in San Francisco have been shuttered since March, and officials on Monday gave the OK to reopen, but for outdoor service only. Salon owner Erica Kious called the congresswoman’s visit “a slap in the face.”


Sen. Dianne Feinstein, who has called for nationwide mask mandates, was seen walking maskless through an airport in September and again in the hallway of the Capitol last week. The clip that went viral on Twitter shows her before the hearing, out in the hallway, **talking in close proximity with two gentlemen who were both wearing masks, while she was not.**


Sen. Chuck Schumer also partied for Biden maskless. In the video, **without a mask, he sings** 'Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye' with Biden supporters in Times Square.
 
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WilcoWorld

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Seems to me that it's less about a liberal bias and more about the fact that the recent politics-related post are actually on-topic for the thread.

My understanding was that we can mention politics if they're relevant to the discussion, we're just trying to avoid threads devolving into political mudsligning. But I'm not a mod.
 
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To my mind, almost everything @GeneralVeers posts has a political slant to it. But, because you're generally on topic and not outright disrespectful to other posters, I don't feel like I need to call the Mods on you.

I'd prefer that we not call in the Mods to intervene whenever someone makes a political statement that we don't like - instead we handle this amongst ourselves by being respectful and staying on topic.
 
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BAM!

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Hmm why no mods questioning political comments? Oh wait you are all CNN and had a conference call to only censor conservative thought.

First, a discussion on root causes of the social and preventative medicine factors surrounding our country's COVID pandemic is certainly on topic.

Second, not sure how anyone can consider anti-masking and sacrificing the weak to establish herd immunity as "conservative."
 

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First, a discussion on root causes of the social and preventative medicine factors surrounding our country's COVID pandemic is certainly on topic.

Second, not sure how anyone can consider anti-masking and sacrificing the weak to establish herd immunity as "conservative."
Exactly. Plus I'm not sure why masking or different public health approaches to are considered political topics at all. Oh wait....
 

Siggy

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First, a discussion on root causes of the social and preventative medicine factors surrounding our country's COVID pandemic is certainly on topic.

Second, not sure how anyone can consider anti-masking and sacrificing the weak to establish herd immunity as "conservative."

...because President Trump is the de facto leader of the Republican party, the Republican party is the de facto conservative party in the US, and it has come out that President Trump's administration pushed herd immunity. Therefore anti-masking and sacrificing the weak for herd immunity IS the conservative opinion.



BTW, I don't see anyone commenting on Sweden's sudden buyer's regret for herd immunity.
 
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miacomet

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Rekt

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Hmm why no mods questioning political comments? Oh wait you are all CNN and had a conference call to only censor conservative thought.

So weird how all my political comments get removed but the SJW liberal nonsense stays.

Just have the government shoot everyone not wearing a mask right? Unless you're protesting. That's okay.
 
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Siggy

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So weird how all my political comments get removed but the SJW liberal nonsense stays.

Just have the government shoot everyone not wearing a mask right? Unless you're protesting. That's okay.
2nd amendment solutions...
 

Siggy

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You can recognize part of the Bill of Rights. That's good progress for you.
Yes... and as a gun owner, I also recognize the inherent threat that comes when a political candidate says something along the lines of "“If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people — maybe there is, I don’t know.”

You do recognize murder because you don't like something is wrong, correct? "If you do... that's good progress for you."


...but hey, since we're on the topic of masks... which amendment enumerates your right to not wear a mask? After all, aren't the second amendment solutions supposed to be for when your rights are being infringed?
 
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GeneralVeers

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2nd amendment solutions...

You can recognize part of the Bill of Rights. That's good progress for you.
Yes... and as a gun owner, I also recognize the inherent threat that comes when a political candidate says something along the lines of "“If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people — maybe there is, I don’t know.”

You do recognize murder because you don't like something is wrong, correct? "If you do... that's good progress for you."


...but hey, since we're on the topic of masks... which amendment enumerates your right to not wear a mask? After all, aren't the second amendment solutions supposed to be for when your rights are being infringed?
Yes... and as a gun owner, I also recognize the inherent threat that comes when a political candidate says something along the lines of "“If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people — maybe there is, I don’t know.”

You do recognize murder because you don't like something is wrong, correct? "If you do... that's good progress for you."


...but hey, since we're on the topic of masks... which amendment enumerates your right to not wear a mask? After all, aren't the second amendment solutions supposed to be for when your rights are being infringed?
That's not the second amendment. I take back my prior compliment.
 

Siggy

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You can recognize part of the Bill of Rights. That's good progress for you.

That's not the second amendment. I take back my prior compliment.
Well, that's the way "conservatives" such as the de facto leader of the conservative party President Trump views the second amendment.

...and if you don't toe the Donald Trump line, then you're a RINO... and I guess that makes you a "SJW liberal" (not your quote, but it's from the comment that started this line of nonsense).
 

GeneralVeers

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Well, that's the way "conservatives" such as the de facto leader of the conservative party President Trump views the second amendment.

...and if you don't toe the Donald Trump line, then you're a RINO... and I guess that makes you a "SJW liberal" (not your quote, but it's from the comment that started this line of nonsense).

Well we are in for a wild two weeks. Some crazy stuff is coming.... You will enjoy.
 

wamcp

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...because President Trump is the de facto leader of the Republican party, the Republican party is the de facto conservative party in the US, and it has come out that President Trump's administration pushed herd immunity. Therefore anti-masking and sacrificing the weak for herd immunity IS the conservative opinion.



BTW, I don't see anyone commenting on Sweden's sudden buyer's regret for herd immunity.
Fear is fear. Opinions can change.

But reality hasn’t changed.

Facts are facts.

Lockdowns or no lockdowns, masks or no mask, virus is gonna do what it does. If your country doesn’t stop the initial virus outbreak with contact tracing like korea or taiwan then it doesn’t matter anymore. Cumulative deaths from covid will not change in the long run.

what does matter is artificial lockdowns will cause needless economic suffering and other unintended deaths and morbidity.

If Sweden actually failed with their lack of lockdowns or mask mandates...explain this:

All data is from official stats from the Swedish Central Bureau of Statistics:

[http://www.statistikdatabasen.scb.s...ssd/START__BE__BE0101__BE0101G/ManadFoddDod/) Births and deaths per month by sex. Year 1851–2019

[https://scb.se/hitta-statistik/stat...-och-diagram/preliminar-statistik-over-doda/) 2020 Deaths

[http://www.statistikdatabasen.scb.s...sd/START__BE__BE0101__BE0101G/BefUtvKon1749/) Population and population changes in Sweden by sex. Year 1749–2019

[https://www.scb.se/en/finding-stati...opulation-composition/population-statistics/) 2020 Population
 

Arcan57

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Fear is fear. Opinions can change.

But reality hasn’t changed.

Facts are facts.

Lockdowns or no lockdowns, masks or no mask, virus is gonna do what it does. If your country doesn’t stop the initial virus outbreak with contact tracing like korea or taiwan then it doesn’t matter anymore. Cumulative deaths from covid will not change in the long run.

what does matter is artificial lockdowns will cause needless economic suffering and other unintended deaths and morbidity.

If Sweden actually failed with their lack of lockdowns or mask mandates...explain this:

All data is from official stats from the Swedish Central Bureau of Statistics:

[http://www.statistikdatabasen.scb.s...ssd/START__BE__BE0101__BE0101G/ManadFoddDod/) Births and deaths per month by sex. Year 1851–2019

[https://scb.se/hitta-statistik/stat...-och-diagram/preliminar-statistik-over-doda/) 2020 Deaths

[http://www.statistikdatabasen.scb.s...sd/START__BE__BE0101__BE0101G/BefUtvKon1749/) Population and population changes in Sweden by sex. Year 1749–2019

[https://www.scb.se/en/finding-stati...opulation-composition/population-statistics/) 2020 Population
Viruses are going to virus has to be one of the most reductive and yet self-fulfilling prophecies ever created. Backing it up by removing all the countries that actually have controlled spread of COVID to further tilt the analysis is also a classic. Follow it up with something, something, Sweden... and you have what passes for a compelling argument for far too much of this country.

Bonuses points for acting like the rampant morbidity and mortality created by COVID would have no negative effect on the economy in the absence of official mitigation efforts and that people avoided getting care solely because of the government.
 
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