Here We Go Again

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
I like Ron Paul, but we shouldn't really be concerned. As much attention as we pay to politics and the personal investment we have in learning different politicians' policies, it sadly isn't worth the time. When you see someone who you think may be an intelligence-lacking individual (like the guy I saw smoking a cigarette while pumping gas a few pumps away from me) and likely pays no attention to politics, just remember, their vote is equal to yours, and they will vote b/c kid rock or puff daddy or garth brooks or chris brown influenced them to get out and vote.

You don't have to be a productive, tax-paying member of society to participate in the governance of this country. You just have to be 18 or older. That sucks for the progress of the US, especially for the taxpayers.

Hypothetical Idea (but likely won't ever happen here):
I don't know, maybe if someone receives financial aid from the govt, their voting rights should be suspended. Perhaps med students included, as we receive federal loans for school. Those on welfare, government assistance, etc. It won't happen, but just like any company that is traded on the stock market, if you are a shareholder, then you get to vote, but if you have nothing invested in the company (correlation is: you don't pay taxes) should you be permitted to vote? negative. When non-stakeholders gain an opportunity to vote, things have already started to go down the crapper.


Someone out there will cancel your vote out, and mine as well. But at least we have SDN.

A throwback to the days when only landowners ould vote. Not to mention being reminiscent of poll taxes. That system worked really well.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
A throwback to the days when only landowners ould vote. Not to mention being reminiscent of poll taxes. That system worked really well.

Sarcasm or are you serious? Not sure if serious.

It seems like a decent idea, until corruptness plays its part.
 
Sarcasm or are you serious? Not sure if serious.

It seems like a decent idea, until corruptness plays its part.

Corruption is certainly an issue with serfdoms and poll taxes. Better still, we could just sterilize all the poors/disabled/welfare folks etc like they did 50 years ago in North Carolina and Cali, and then we'll finally achieve that libertarian utopia where all the productive, land-owning job creators aren't weighed down by the votes of future undesirables.
 
Corruption is certainly an issue with serfdoms and poll taxes. Better still, we could just sterilize all the poors/disabled/welfare folks etc like they did 50 years ago in North Carolina and Cali, and then we'll finally achieve that libertarian utopia where all the productive, land-owning job creators aren't weighed down by the votes of future undesirables.

If you think forced sterilizations are consistent with libertarian ideals, you either don't know what the word means, or you're deliberately misrepresenting it.
 
Ron Paul is the only intelligent politician that has run in a long time. Just take a look at his predictions circa 2002. He is the only candidate that would make a significant difference. Any other candidate is more or less the same. Yeah one may outlaw gay marriage, another may vote less favorable to bailouts, but in the end we will still go bankrupt under the other clowns.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifJG_oFFDK0[/YOUTUBE]
 
Ron Paul is the only intelligent politician that has run in a long time.

I sort of with Blade on him, I don't really agree with his isolationism. But maybe that's a moot point.
- Presidents aren't kings; anything he wants will be tempered by what Congress lets him do.
- And it's not like we're going to continue to have the money to fund our current foreign policy forever; something's got to change.


But in the end, I'd rather see Romney beat Obama than Paul lose to Obama.
 
If you think forced sterilizations are consistent with libertarian ideals, you either don't know what the word means, or you're deliberately misrepresenting it.

Obviously libertarianism doesn't advocate forced sterilization (or forced anything for that matter)- the rhetorical point I was making is that a Randian utopia of pure laissez-faire capitalism is one way or another totally devoid of "moochers" who benefit from "looters" stealing from "heroes." It's also totally devoid of any notion that a human being is worthy of dignity or protection under a social contract unless he is an elite, productive landowner (see: the situations of old, poor people pre-FDR). The absurdist view of such a world involves a silly Swiftian utilitarian argument in which the best way to maximize freedom is to, ironically, get rid of all the people who minimize it.


And for those who really don't know anything substantive about Paul and just think he's a somewhat likable guy with sane ideas on foreign intervention, drug policy, and spending:

"Ron Paul wants to define life as starting at conception, build a fence along the US-Mexico border, prevent the Supreme Court from hearing cases on the Establishment Clause or the right to privacy, permitting the return of sodomy laws and the like (a bill which he has repeatedly re-introduced), pull out of the UN, disband NATO, end birthright citizenship, deny federal funding to any organisation which "which presents male or female homosexuality as an acceptable alternative life style or which suggest that it can be an acceptable life style" along with destroying public education and social security,, and abolish the Federal Reserve in order to put America back on the gold standard. He was also the sole vote against divesting US federal government investments in corporations doing business with the genocidal government of the Sudan.

Oh, and he believes that the Left is waging a war on religion and Christmas, he's against gay marriage, is against the popular vote, opposes the Civil Rights Act of 1964, wants the estate tax repealed, is STILL making racist remarks, believes that the Panama Canal should be the property of the United States, and believes in New World Order conspiracy theories, not to mention his belief that the International Baccalaureate program is UN mind control.."
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
The big picture is that if all of Ron Paul's policies were theoretically implemented it would catastrophically destabilize the entire world from both an economic and security standpoint.

Some bonus Paul policy...let's not forget he also wants to abolish FEMA, get rid of the Department of Homeland Security, stop federal prosecutions of obscenity, eliminate the IRS, end most foreign aid, overturn the Patriot Act, phase out Social Security, revoke public services for illegal immigrants, repeal No Child Left Behind, and reestablish gold and silver as legal tender
 
Members don't see this ad :)
The big picture is that if all of Ron Paul's policies were theoretically implemented it would catastrophically destabilize the entire world from both an economic and security standpoint.

Some bonus Paul policy...let's not forget he also wants to abolish FEMA, get rid of the Department of Homeland Security, stop federal prosecutions of obscenity, eliminate the IRS, end most foreign aid, overturn the Patriot Act, phase out Social Security, revoke public services for illegal immigrants, repeal No Child Left Behind, and reestablish gold and silver as legal tender

Some of that sounds excellent to me. Most of it (and your previous list) amounts to assuming his belief in Constitutionally limited federal power to be agreement with backwards or otherwise bad state laws.

I personally fall on the opposite end of the states' rights debate and this is a major point of departure to my agreement with Paul. I'd overlook it, and the isolationism, and support him if I thought there was a snowball's chance in hell he could beat Obama.
 
The big picture is that if all of Ron Paul's policies were theoretically implemented it would catastrophically destabilize the entire world from both an economic and security standpoint.

Some bonus Paul policy...let's not forget he also wants to abolish FEMA, get rid of the Department of Homeland Security, stop federal prosecutions of obscenity, eliminate the IRS, end most foreign aid, overturn the Patriot Act, phase out Social Security, revoke public services for illegal immigrants, repeal No Child Left Behind, and reestablish gold and silver as legal tender


Uh.......
 
Intersting discussion... I'm interested in the Ayn Rand libertarian point of view. Are their alot of poor or people who benfit from social policies that support a more libertarian approach to addressing our nations troubles? I have never seen a formal break down but most people I know that are libertarian have their college paid for by their parents and tend to be the higher side of advantage, drive, and intelligence. Which is basically to say - they would benfit from a more deregulated enviroment.

I'm a mixed bag with alot of the views - but I cant help but think that for some people it's a power grab. And to be honest - for those on the lower side of advantage their ability to vote and hold policy makers to the fire is another type of power grab for more public funding to benfit their interests.
 
Don't sweat the false economic rhetoric; Bush and Obama have already beaten him to destablizing our economy. This is how bad Bush and Obama have been; despite Paul's rather unappetizing views on Foreign policy etc, Ron Paul is still a force because unlike the 2 previous complete knuckleheads, he is the only guy out there with an economic clue.

Ron Paul is literally a crazy gold-loving conspiracy theorist who doesn't have an inkling of a [reasonable or feasible] economic clue.

http://blogs.wsj.com/totalreturn/2011/12/21/the-ron-paul-portfolio/

Most members of Congress, like many Americans, hold some real estate, a few bonds or bond mutual funds, some individual stocks and a bundle of stock funds. Give or take a few percentage points, a typical Congressional portfolio might have 10% in cash, 10% in bonds or bond funds, 20% in real estate, and 60% in stocks or stock funds.

But Ron Paul's portfolio isn't merely different. It's shockingly different.

Yes, about 21% of Rep. Paul's holdings are in real estate and roughly 14% in cash. But he owns no bonds or bond funds and has only 0.1% in stock funds. Furthermore, the stock funds that Rep. Paul does own are all "short," or make bets against, U.S. stocks. One is a "double inverse" fund that, on a daily basis, goes up twice as much as its stock benchmark goes down.

The remainder of Rep. Paul's portfolio – fully 64% of his assets – is entirely in gold and silver mining stocks. He owns no Apple, no ExxonMobil, no Procter & Gamble, no General Electric, no Johnson & Johnson, not even a diversified mutual fund that holds a broad basket of stocks. Rep. Paul doesn't own stock in any major companies at all except big precious-metals stocks like Barrick Gold, Goldcorp and Newmont Mining.


Rep. Paul also owns 23 other miners – many of them smaller, Canadian-based "juniors" whose stocks are highly risky. Ten of these stocks have total market valuations of less than $500 million, a common definition of a "microcap" stock. Mr. Paul has between $100,010 and $326,000 (roughly 5% of his assets) invested in these tiny, extremely volatile stocks.

Rep. Paul appears to be a strict buy-and-hold investor who rarely trades; he has held many of his mining stocks since at least 2002. But, as gold and silver prices have fallen sharply since September, precious-metals equities have also taken a pounding, with many dropping 20% or more. That exposes the risk in making a big bet on one narrow sector.
 
Last edited:
I don't understand why people still have the misconception paul is an isolationist. He wants to only go to war when congress declares it, you know like it states in the constitution. He also believes instead of making up reasons to preemptively bomb countries (WMDS and iraq) that we use diplomacy to try and solve problems ala cuban missle crisis.
As far as elect ability a very recent poll showed him head to head with obama 46-45 within statistical margin of error.


Some bonus Paul policy...let's not forget he also wants to abolish FEMA, get rid of the Department of Homeland Security, stop federal prosecutions of obscenity, eliminate the IRS, end most foreign aid, overturn the Patriot Act, phase out Social Security, revoke public services for illegal immigrants, repeal No Child Left Behind, and reestablish gold and silver as legal tender

This all sounds pretty good
 
yeah its been a terrible idea to invest in gold recently....
how is it he is the crazy one with no economic clue but correctly predicted the housing crisis and that all the 'experts' could not
 
The big picture is that if all of Ron Paul's policies were theoretically implemented it would catastrophically destabilize the entire world from both an economic and security standpoint.

Some bonus Paul policy...let's not forget he also wants to abolish FEMA, get rid of the Department of Homeland Security, stop federal prosecutions of obscenity, eliminate the IRS, end most foreign aid, overturn the Patriot Act, phase out Social Security, revoke public services for illegal immigrants, repeal No Child Left Behind, and reestablish gold and silver as legal tender

Isn't this happening now? (rhetorical) Inflation here. Greece hit the crapper, right next to a few others. How about the Euro? Banks in Europe are not in the best of shape, per my last viewing of the news. There will always be war, people will find a way to hate other people. I don't really know of many countries that are really thriving.

The US is the champion consumer of the world, when we struggle, the world struggles. That is a fact. When our consumer confidence is high, the world economy isn't so bad.

Sure, some of his ideas are out there, but like I said earlier, the founding fathers of this country established a system where drastic change would not occur. checks and balances, as I learned as a young man. Like ppg said, Paul would do whatever congress would let him do, but there would be a leash to his actions.

Vector2: your vote will be cancelled out by someone who knows less about politics, too. You have done more research than the average voter, but to no avail. Sorry, dude.
 
The big picture is that if all of Ron Paul's policies were theoretically implemented it would catastrophically destabilize the entire world from both an economic and security standpoint.

Some bonus Paul policy...let's not forget he also wants to abolish FEMA, get rid of the Department of Homeland Security, stop federal prosecutions of obscenity, eliminate the IRS, end most foreign aid, overturn the Patriot Act, phase out Social Security, revoke public services for illegal immigrants, repeal No Child Left Behind, and reestablish gold and silver as legal tender

USA was doing just fine without the fed, IRS, social security, FEMA, patriot act.... And all those other programs that bankrupted us. We'll be just fine. Relax your batty.
 
Some of that sounds excellent to me. Most of it (and your previous list) amounts to assuming his belief in Constitutionally limited federal power to be agreement with backwards or otherwise bad state laws.

I personally fall on the opposite end of the states' rights debate and this is a major point of departure to my agreement with Paul. I'd overlook it, and the isolationism, and support him if I thought there was a snowball's chance in hell he could beat Obama.

Some of it sounds excellent to me as well. But he's still 98.2% crazy. Additionally, it's a little surprising to hear a reasonable person such as yourself say you'd support Paul (and by proxy support the repeal of the Civil Rights Act, banning abortion, reinstituting anti-privacy sodomy laws) if it meant beating Obama. Regardless of whether such changes could ever make it through Congress, those things don't really sit well with my moral compass or definition of liberty.

urge said:
USA was doing just fine without the fed, IRS, social security, FEMA, patriot act.... And all those other programs that bankrupted us. We'll be just fine. Relax your batty.

No IRS, no enforceable taxes, no disaster relief, no welfare for poors or olds, no health care, no organized central authority, reliance on hard currencies...sounds like the modern-day utopias that are Afghanistan or Nigeria.


yeah its been a terrible idea to invest in gold recently....
how is it he is the crazy one with no economic clue but correctly predicted the housing crisis and that all the 'experts' could not

Spoiler alert: the recent skyrocketing of gold prices is the very definition of a bubble.

5QiJy.png
 
Last edited:
USA was doing just fine without the fed, IRS, social security, FEMA, patriot act.... And all those other programs that bankrupted us. We'll be just fine. Relax your batty.

What Bankrupted Us:

1) Korea
2) Vietnam
3) Iraq 1
4) Iraq 2
5) Afghanistan
6) War on Pot
7) Tax giveaways to Paris Hilton
8-36) other stuff
37) pensions with their own dedicated revenue streams
9,999,999) The IRS
 
Isn't this happening now? (rhetorical) Inflation here. Greece hit the crapper, right next to a few others. How about the Euro? Banks in Europe are not in the best of shape, per my last viewing of the news. There will always be war, people will find a way to hate other people. I don't really know of many countries that are really thriving.

Europe has its issues, but the main problem stemmed from them trying to introduce a unified currency with 30 different sovereign monetary policies. The European Central Bank has also been inordinately stupid by being obsessed with solely inflation to the point of ignoring growth or financial stability. Now, the stronger countries like Germany want to impose austerity on countries like Greece (which has already and will continue to make their unemployment worse) rather than fix the underlying problem.

Regardless, we're not anywhere near the levels of global catastrophe we'd be approaching if Ron Paul and a tea party Congress decided that we should just make everyone think the US is going to default on its debt by not raising the debt ceiling (something which has been done by every pres/congress whenever it was needed since the beginning of time.)

The US is the champion consumer of the world, when we struggle, the world struggles. That is a fact. When our consumer confidence is high, the world economy isn't so bad.

Yep, 100% right. What people are missing is that debt is long-term issue which doesn't require such level of alarmism. Consider for a moment that we never repayed our massive debt from WWII- US economic growth in addition to progressive taxation made the debt:GDP ratio quite manageable between the 40s to 70s. I agree that deficits need to be trimmed, but it's mind-bogglingly stupid to think that it needs to be done during a recession/weak recovery instead of during a time like the 90s when growth was strong.

Sure, some of his ideas are out there, but like I said earlier, the founding fathers of this country established a system where drastic change would not occur. checks and balances, as I learned as a young man. Like ppg said, Paul would do whatever congress would let him do, but there would be a leash to his actions.

"Paul 2012: We promise Congress won't pass all his ideas" :laugh:

Vector2: your vote will be cancelled out by someone who knows less about politics, too. You have done more research than the average voter, but to no avail. Sorry, dude.

I'm fine with the fact that someone who disagrees with me will cancel out my vote. Such is the price of freedom.
 
Narc... there is no need to call anyone blind. Besides, everyone knows you're so influenced by Ron Paul you like to wonder labor and delivery pretending you're Ron Paul lol.


**Shakes expecting mothers hand**

"Hello, I'm Narcot.. er Dr. Paul the OBGYN. Invest in gold!":thumbup:


You are the blind following the blind.
 
raising the debt ceiling (something which has been done by every pres/congress whenever it was needed since the beginning of time.)

This is why we now have a debt that has passed annual GDP with no end in site? :rolleyes:

Maybe it's time to stop the behaviors that have been done since the beginning of time that have lead us to this crisis?? :idea:
 
Last edited:
Do you understand our debt is now in a class with such stellar finances as Greece, Italy, and Ireland??

This is absolutely false. The US hitting 100% debt:GDP sucks, but we're not anywhere close to the same class as Greece or Italy. Do those countries control their own monetary policy? Nope. Is their currency the reserve currency of the entire world? Nope. Is their economy even within an order of magnitude as big as the US? Nope. Is the rest of the world buying up their treasury bonds like it's going out of style? Nope.

Japan is at 204% debt to GDP and they are still the third largest economy in the world both nominally and by purchasing power parity. Additionally, they're also the perfect example for why massive deficit spending is required when consumer spending and corporate investment are weak, as running a huge deficit was the only thing that kept their lost decade(s) from turning into a great depression.

Ron Paul does and that's why he's in gold. Do you realize the Einsteins out there calling gold a bubble didn't call real estate, dot coms, or our debt a bubble?? You are the blind following the blind.

It's bull to try and pass it off as if no one knew about the housing bubble. Guys like Robert Shiller were proclaiming warnings since the early 2000s. Bush just didn't care because his housing policy was more important to him.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/business/worldbusiness/21iht-admin.4.18853088.html

Bush did foresee the danger posed by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored mortgage finance giants. The president spent years pushing a recalcitrant Congress to toughen regulation of the companies, but was unwilling to compromise when his former Treasury secretary wanted to cut a deal. And the regulator Bush chose to oversee them - an old school buddy - pronounced the companies sound even as they headed toward insolvency.

As early as 2006, top advisers to Bush dismissed warnings from people inside and outside the White House that housing prices were inflated and that a foreclosure crisis was looming. And when the economy deteriorated, Bush and his team misdiagnosed the reasons and scope of the downturn. As recently as February, for example, Bush was still calling it a "rough patch."
 
And it hasn't occurred to you at all that this is why we now have a debt that has passed annual GDP with no end in site? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

And it hasn't occurred to you that the tea party playing political games involving the threat of defaulting on the safest, most stable debt in the entire world aka US T-bills is so ******ed that it's beyond belief?

So do you just tell the patient that is approaching a liver crisis to just keep drinking a 6-pack a day because that's what he's done since the beginning of time? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

This is a terrible analogy. About as terrible as all the "US Public debt = family of four sitting around their kitchen table worrying about their credit card debt" analogies. Let's see what Robert Shiller, a guy who predicted both the stock bubble and housing bubble, says about it:

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/shiller78/English

Debt and Delusion
Robert J. Shiller

NEW HAVEN – Economists like to talk about thresholds that, if crossed, spell trouble. Usually there is an element of truth in what they say. But the public often overreacts to such talk.

Consider, for example, the debt-to-GDP ratio, much in the news nowadays in Europe and the United States. It is sometimes said, almost in the same breath, that Greece's debt equals 153% of its annual GDP, and that Greece is insolvent. Couple these statements with recent television footage of Greeks rioting in the street. Now, what does that look like?

Here in the US, it might seem like an image of our future, as public debt comes perilously close to 100% of annual GDP and continues to rise. But maybe this image is just a bit too vivid in our imaginations. Could it be that people think that a country becomes insolvent when its debt exceeds 100% of GDP?

That would clearly be nonsense. After all, debt (which is measured in currency units) and GDP (which is measured in currency units per unit of time) yields a ratio in units of pure time. There is nothing special about using a year as that unit. A year is the time that it takes for the earth to orbit the sun, which, except for seasonal industries like agriculture, has no particular economic significance.

We should remember this from high school science: always pay attention to units of measurement. Get the units wrong and you are totally befuddled.

If economists did not habitually annualize quarterly GDP data and multiply quarterly GDP by four, Greece's debt-to-GDP ratio would be four times higher than it is now. And if they habitually decadalized GDP, multiplying the quarterly GDP numbers by 40 instead of four, Greece's debt burden would be 15%. From the standpoint of Greece's ability to pay, such units would be more relevant, since it doesn't have to pay off its debts fully in one year (unless the crisis makes it impossible to refinance current debt).

Some of Greece's national debt is owed to Greeks, by the way. As such, the debt burden woefully understates the obligations that Greeks have to each other (largely in the form of family obligations). At any time in history, the debt-to-annual-GDP ratio (including informal debts) would vastly exceed 100%.

Most people never think about this when they react to the headline debt-to-GDP figure. Can they really be so stupid as to get mixed up by these ratios? Speaking from personal experience, I have to say that they can, because even I, a professional economist, have occasionally had to stop myself from making exactly the same error.

Economists who adhere to rational-expectations models of the world will never admit it, but a lot of what happens in markets is driven by pure stupidity – or, rather, inattention, misinformation about fundamentals, and an exaggerated focus on currently circulating stories.

What is really happening in Greece is the operation of a social-feedback mechanism. Something started to cause investors to fear that Greek debt had a slightly higher risk of eventual default. Lower demand for Greek debt caused its price to fall, meaning that its yield in terms of market interest rates rose. The higher rates made it more costly for Greece to refinance its debt, creating a fiscal crisis that has forced the government to impose severe austerity measures, leading to public unrest and an economic collapse that has fueled even greater investor skepticism about Greece's ability to service its debt.

This feedback has nothing to do with the debt-to-annual-GDP ratio crossing some threshold, unless the people who contribute to the feedback believe in the ratio. To be sure, the ratio is a factor that would help us to assess risks of negative feedback, since the government must refinance short-term debt sooner, and, if the crisis pushes up interest rates, the authorities will face intense pressures for fiscal austerity sooner or later. But the ratio is not the cause of the feedback.

A paper written last year by Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff, called "Growth in a Time of Debt," has been widely quoted for its analysis of 44 countries over 200 years, which found that when government debt exceeds 90% of GDP, countries suffer slower growth, losing about one percentage point on the annual rate.

One might be misled into thinking that, because 90% sounds awfully close to 100%, awful things start happening to countries that get into such a mess. But if one reads their paper carefully, it is clear that Reinhart and Rogoff picked the 90% figure almost arbitrarily. They chose, without explanation, to divide debt-to-GDP ratios into the following categories: under 30%, 30-60%, 60-90%, and over 90%. And it turns out that growth rates decline in all of these categories as the debt-to-GDP ratio increases, only somewhat more in the last category.

There is also the issue of reverse causality. Debt-to-GDP ratios tend to increase for countries that are in economic trouble. If this is part of the reason that higher debt-to-GDP ratios correspond to lower economic growth, there is less reason to think that countries should avoid a higher ratio, as Keynesian theory implies that fiscal austerity would undermine, rather than boost, economic performance.

The fundamental problem that much of the world faces today is that investors are overreacting to debt-to-GDP ratios, fearful of some magic threshold, and demanding fiscal-austerity programs too soon. They are asking governments to cut expenditure while their economies are still vulnerable. Households are running scared, so they cut expenditures as well, and businesses are being dissuaded from borrowing to finance capital expenditures.

The lesson is simple: We should worry less about debt ratios and thresholds, and more about our inability to see these indicators for the artificial – and often irrelevant – constructs that they are.

Robert J. Shiller is Professor of Economics at Yale University.
-----------

Narcotized said:
Maybe it's time to stop the behaviors that have been done since the beginning of time that have lead us to this crisis?? :idea::idea::idea:

Indeed, spending needs to be cut. And as Simpson-Bowles points out we also need tax increases. Bush 41 realized this and that's why he raised taxes. Even Saint Ronaldus of Reagan realized this and that's why he raised taxes 13 times. It took Bush 43-levels of idiocy to start two wars and medicare part D while cutting taxes.
 
And it hasn't occurred to you that the tea party playing political games involving the threat of defaulting on the safest, most stable debt in the entire world aka US T-bills is so ******ed that it's beyond belief?



.

If by safe you understand having the ability to print money to pay you back, then I recommend you to invest in Zimbabwe. It is extremely safe by your criteria. Go all in. You'll be rich in no time.

You are welcome!
 
Japan is at 204% debt to GDP and they are still the third largest economy in the world both nominally and by purchasing power parity. Additionally, they're also the perfect example for why massive deficit spending is required when consumer spending and corporate investment are weak, as running a huge deficit was the only thing that kept their lost decade(s) from turning into a great depression.


.

Kicking the can down the road is not how I roll. You are forcing your kids, grand kids.... To deal with your stupidity. I'm sure we can keep the gravy train going for many years if we wanted to. But you will enslave all your offspring for your excesses.

It' not how I do things.
 
Stupidity....Kicking the can down the road.... gravy train... Zimbabwe... your kids.... your grandkids.... your great grandkids.... your great grandkids' grandkids grandkids.................................................................:eek::eek::eek:

You realize there's more to the debt discussion than just reciting cliches from this morning's Fox and Friends' talking points, right? And good job selectively quoting and replying to my posts, I guess. It's still funny that anyone would think US treasuries are anything but safe considering demand has led them to have their best performance since 1995, but by all means feel free to keep buying gold krugerands so you can barter them in the post-Bernanke quantitative easing Zimbabwean apocalypse that is America 2035. :rolleyes:
 
You realize there's more to the debt discussion than just reciting cliches from this morning's Fox and Friends' talking points, right? And good job selectively quoting and replying to my posts, I guess.

So you couldn't come up with an intelligent reply and this is the best you could do....

:sleep:
 
vector2 said:
Spoiler alert: the recent skyrocketing of gold prices is the very definition of a bubble.

I've seen the gold price graphs, and am well aware that the usual pre-crash bubble believers' mantra is "this time's different" ...

Yep, 100% right. What people are missing is that debt is long-term issue which doesn't require such level of alarmism. Consider for a moment that we never repayed our massive debt from WWII- US economic growth in addition to progressive taxation made the debt:GDP ratio quite manageable between the 40s to 70s. I agree that deficits need to be trimmed, but it's mind-bogglingly stupid to think that it needs to be done during a recession/weak recovery instead of during a time like the 90s when growth was strong.

Ah, there it is. The belief that growth can save us, and only minor course adjustments are needed to get America Back On Track. We don't need to actually stop borrowing money, just borrow less each year.


Your assumption here is that sustained, long term (exponential by definition) growth is possible.

You posted a gold price graph. What do you think of oil production graphs?

US oil discoveries peaked around 1930 and have declined ever since, despite new technology and aggressive searching. Production peaked around 1970 and has declined ever since.

Global oil discoveries peaked around 1960 and have declined ever since. It's a little harder to evaluate the last 5-10 years, what with the global recession and all, but there's ample evidence that global production has also peaked, and that just maintaining pre-recession mid-2000s production levels will require extremely aggressive alternate fuel development ... if it's even possible at all.

(And of course none of this even touches on concerns, valid or not, about CO2 emissions and other artificial pressures that governments may place on development and use of "oil replacements" like shale oil, oil sands, coal, natural gas ... not that any of these have realistic projections of replacing oil.)

There is reasonable doubt that global oil (or equivalent) supplies can be held constant for the next 20-30 years, much less reverse the trends established and proven over the last 80 years and increase to keep pace with the demands of sustained exponential (even at a couple % per year) economic growth.

Economic growth, especially coming out of a recession, is highly dependent upon the availability of cheap energy. What does it say that even through the worst of the recession oil prices have been $75-100 or more?

Consider that even 2% annual growth simply may not be possible in the long term. Not that 2% economic growth would be sufficient to outpace our much faster debt growth in the first place.

We could default.
We could inflate/devalue the debt away.
The rest of the world could swirl down the toilet first and prop us up as a "safer" haven for a while (Europe seems to be trying).

Honestly, how do you think it's possible that we'll "outgrow" even our current debt?

I don't think default or devaluation are imminent. It wouldn't surprise me if we kept limping along for a number of years, clinging to some illusion that we are "only" enduring something akin to Japan's lost decades. Maybe in that time, some gamechanger like limitless energy from seawater cold fusion will come along, but that's a bold thing to bet on.

Seems like a better plan would be maybe to borrow and spend less - and start thinking about a world in which maybe the US consumption-heavy standard of living won't be possible.
 
Last edited:
Your assumption here is that sustained, long term (exponential by definition) growth is possible.

I don't have any connection to this guy, and I'm not a subscriber to his newsletter ...

But this article (I guess it's only 1/2 an article) expands on what I wrote about energy costs limiting or stunting growth:

http://www.chrismartenson.com/blog/returning-to-simplicity/70143

"It's obvious that our elected leadership has no concept of a growth limit that could render the economy’s obligations insoluble."


If growth isn't the answer to our debt, then default or currency devaluation will be. My personal opinion is that sustained growth sufficient to outgrow our debt will not be possible, and to borrow a phrase from this guy (who admittedly makes a living selling economic fear online), believe the next 20 years will be nothing like the last 20.
 
Top