High GPA. Rejected?

[No1 Pusher]

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I tried the 'search engine' and found only one sdn member "asian pharm" with 3.89 gpa/Pharm tech experience who has been rejected everywhere. PCAT score wasn't mentioned but I'm assuming he did well on it.

Is there anyone else who has been rejected with a high gpa of 3.6+ pharm experience, high PCAT? If so, why do you think (or know) you were rejected? High GPA/PCAT What do you guys think went wrong? What's everyone's opinion on this matter?

 

[anh80]

.

 

[binghamkid]

Keep in mind that rejections can occur at any stage of the application process. Without enough information it is not possible to analyze whether the rejection is due to LORs, the actual interview performance itself, or something else. So while someone may be rejected with a high GPA, it could be due to a different circumstance that has little to do with their academic ability (for example, maybe the admissions committee perceived their interview answers as being indicative of their desire to go into pharmacy for the wrong reasons, etc. etc.)

 

[No1 Pusher]

my friend did. he has a 3.9 GPA and got rejected.

Nice. lol

 

[terse]

my friend did. he has a 3.9 GPA and got rejected.

it could've been due to many other factors as mentioned above. did he have a degree, experience, etc?

 

[azPharmD2B]

Just like a low GPA doesn't automatically disqualify you (unless its below min), a high GPA isn't an automatic ticket in.

Maybe the person wrote a crappy personal statement full of errors, or the recommenders weren't very good, or they had a terrible interview, or failed a background check, or any number of other things. Again, high GPA does not guarantee entrance by any means.

 

[anh80]

.

 

[Hels2007]

A high GPA helps you get in the door, but it doesn't guarantee admission. Interview counts for much more than any paper, and should the person fail the interview, it doesn't matter if they were 4.0 student with 99 PCAT and three leadership positions. There are plenty of ways to fail one's interview - like being rude, showing no enthusiasm for pharmacy, being disengaged, showing that your only interest in and knowledge about pharmacy is about the paycheck, showing lack of maturity, etc.

 

[eddie269]

Most of the times, it's the interview. Sure he may have applied late, bad LOR's, etc. But I would say interview.

Sorry but not all schools care that much about stat's. If you are a quiet, non-confident, no-eye-contact/didn't-shake-hands/head-down/whispering/one-answer/didn't prepare-at all kind of person, you will not get into many schools.

 

[aboveliquidice]

one more thing... English - I know its kind of America's second language now - but in the professional world - it still pulls rank. There are some excellent students out there (high gpa) that are finding barriers to pharmacy admissions. You must be able to fluently utilize our language - both orally and written.

Not basing this off of any numbers... but I wouldn't be surprised if a good majority of those "High GPA, rejectees" turned out to be great people who for whatever reason speak English as a second language.

~above~

 

[RNtoPharmD]

one more thing... English - I know its kind of America's second language now - but in the professional world - it still pulls rank. There are some excellent students out there (high gpa) that are finding barriers to pharmacy admissions. You must be able to fluently utilize our language - both orally and written.

Not basing this off of any numbers... but I wouldn't be surprised if a good majority of those "High GPA, rejectees" turned out to be great people who for whatever reason speak English as a second language.

~above~

As a non-native speaker, I can't help feeling like being treated unfair about this.... It is unfair to use language skills as a competitive factor for admission. However, I agree there should not be a MINIMUM requirment of langauge proficiency needed for pharmacy profession. Just like TOFEL/TSE (test of spoken English) that foreign nurses have to pass to obtain nursing licensure in the US.

But using on-site essay/writing/oral skils/PCAT essay as the basis of consideration is unfair... They overrate "English" language skills and gives unfair advantage for native speaker over immigrants.

Language skills should be graded or considered with PASSING/FAILING attitude.
Pharmcists does not need to be extremely articulate...
PharmD is not equivalent to Master degree in Journalism or English Literature!

 

[Dr.Biassi]

Not being admitted, could be due to the interview, the LOR, the curriculum you had in college, the extracurricular activities, how many credit you took a semester (Course load) or the statement of purpose.
For instance a statement that lacks what you plan to do after your pharmD or while you're in Pharm School will be defective in convincing the comittee. I got accepted last because I had a great LOR, very few pharmacy experience, 3.5 GPA and a great statement of Purpose. The first question sentence of one pf my interview is: It looks like you have a great plan for your future.... .I believe it's all depends on how one present their applications no matter what the GPA is!!!!

 

[acetyl]

Another thing that was not mentioned above is rejection due to not having taken the required courses. Someone could have a 4.0 gpa with a BS in biophysical microchemical engineering, 99 pcat, but get rejected because they didn't take a 1.0 credit hour A&P lab.

As far as the debate about proficiency with the English language, I think it's most important that you can communicate with your patients well. Even if you know English well, some people just can't communicate to the general public, and probably never have/will. Therefore if you can't communicate using the English language effectively, it's going to make communicating with your patients MUCH harder. This is probably part of the reason ~Above said people may get rejected despite having high numbers.

 

[No1 Pusher]

I think it's most important that you can communicate with your patients well.

That's why they require English Composition & Public Speaking in Pre-pharm.

Getting A's in those is not enough proof that one can understand English and communicate well? (it's a question)

 

[piyi]

As far as the debate about proficiency with the English language, I think it's most important that you can communicate with your patients well. Even if you know English well, some people just can't communicate to the general public, and probably never have/will. Therefore if you can't communicate using the English language effectively, it's going to make communicating with your patients MUCH harder. This is probably part of the reason ~Above said people may get rejected despite having high numbers.

Yeah, I agree with this. ~Above's not saying that they'll reject everyone with an accent, or if they make one grammatical error, they're out. But if the interviewers are saying to themselves, what? huh? what did that person say? Or if the interviewers are constantly asking the interviewee to repeat themselves because they can't understand what he or she is saying... Sorry, but I don't think that's being unfair. That person should work on their english/communication skills before they get into pharmacy school. It's not just ESL people either; some people have lived here all their lives and can't communicate effectively.

 

[Hels2007]

Not basing this off of any numbers... but I wouldn't be surprised if a good majority of those "High GPA, rejectees" turned out to be great people who for whatever reason speak English as a second language.

I would be. English is not my first language, and I never had any problems, either getting into pharmacy school or getting my fellowship of choice, or leadership positions. Yes, I do have an accent, since I was 16 when I came to the US (though I started learning English when I was 7 and spoke it reasonably well when I came). However, it never prevented me from getting 33 on ACT English section or 600 on SAT English (old-style), or having a couple of my essays published while in undegrad, or being asked to speak at several events. It's all about the person's desire to master the language - if someone things putting two words together means they speak it - too bad for them. If anything, my accent has been an advantage for me, because people remember me right away, even if we have only met briefly at some random conference.

 

[aboveliquidice]

I would be. English is not my first language, and I never had any problems, either getting into pharmacy school or getting my fellowship of choice, or leadership positions. Yes, I do have an accent, since I was 16 when I came to the US (though I started learning English when I was 7 and spoke it reasonably well when I came). However, it never prevented me from getting 33 on ACT English section or 600 on SAT English (old-style), or having a couple of my essays published while in undegrad, or being asked to speak at several events. It's all about the person's desire to master the language - if someone things putting two words together means they speak it - too bad for them. If anything, my accent has been an advantage for me, because people remember me right away, even if we have only met briefly at some random conference.

Listing your accomplishments is very impressive - however, it is just as simple to locate an example of a person who was prevented from matriculation (Due to the aforementioned reasons).

Being a person with several diagnosed learning disablities - I could assert that learning disablities have no ill effects when it comes to higher education success. I could use the argument that "I am succeeding - thus it must not be an issue" - however, that argument has several faults - just as the reasoning you are using above.

The fact is - when you are asked to write an impromptu essay, or answer questions in an open forum - and you cannot (effectively) - the admissions committee should not ignore it.

Obviously you have the necessary skills - The people I am referring to are excellent in the sciences, but cannot write an effective essay (effective or affective???). Furthermore - they struggled with their one on one interviews.

~above~

 

[eelo]

As a non-native speaker, I can't help feeling like being treated unfair about this.... It is unfair to use language skills as a competitive factor for admission. However, I agree there should not be a MINIMUM requirment of langauge proficiency needed for pharmacy profession. Just like TOFEL/TSE (test of spoken English) that foreign nurses have to pass to obtain nursing licensure in the US.

But using on-site essay/writing/oral skils/PCAT essay as the basis of consideration is unfair... They overrate "English" language skills and gives unfair advantage for native speaker over immigrants.

Language skills should be graded or considered with PASSING/FAILING attitude.
Pharmcists does not need to be extremely articulate...
PharmD is not equivalent to Master degree in Journalism or English Literature!

I absolutely, completely disagree. One of the primary jobs of a pharmacist is the ability to COMMUNICATE. I don't care how high your other grades are, if you can't communicate clearly in English, you have no business expecting admission to ANY professional or graduate school that is going to be taught in English.

We're not talking about an accent here..... I know many people who speak with varying degrees of accents, most of them absolutely brilliant, and extremely competent in their fields because they are able to communicate effectively in English (in addition to three or four other languages!).

If you think it's unfair to use English ability as a determining factor in weeding out applicants, I recommend you apply to a pharmacy school where your native language is spoken. I don't think you'll have too much competition there from Americans. If you expect to be considered seriously for admission to an English-speaking graduate or professional school, you should be able to communicate effectively in English.

 

[piyi]

I absolutely, completely disagree. One of the primary jobs of a pharmacist is the ability to COMMUNICATE. I don't care how high your other grades are, if you can't communicate clearly in English, you have no business expecting admission to ANY professional or graduate school that is going to be taught in English.

We're not talking about an accent here..... I know many people who speak with varying degrees of accents, most of them absolutely brilliant, and extremely competent in their fields because they are able to communicate effectively in English (in addition to three or four other languages!).

If you think it's unfair to use English ability as a determining factor in weeding out applicants, I recommend you apply to a pharmacy school where your native language is spoken. I don't think you'll have too much competition there from Americans. If you expect to be considered seriously for admission to an English-speaking graduate or professional school, you should be able to communicate effectively in English.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Well said.

 

[confettiflyer]

A
Language skills should be graded or considered with PASSING/FAILING attitude.
Pharmcists does not need to be extremely articulate...
PharmD is not equivalent to Master degree in Journalism or English Literature!

I 200% disagree...the bulk of a pharmacist's job is to COMMUNICATE with patients/doctors/other staff members. In fact, communication is the bulk of practically every job out there. If I were an adcom member, I would put more weight on communication skills than GPA and PCAT.

Just because someone is a non-native English speaker doesn't automatically relegate them to second class status. I have a great multitude of friends that came to the US between the ages of 7 and 15 that speak outstanding, clear, and grammatically correct English. I also have a small subset of friends who came to the US at that age and can't talk their way out of a paper bag.

I would not trust the latter in any type of patient care position (unless that patient interaction was strictly in that particular native language -- that is for another discussion)).

Mastery of language will continue to be a major deciding factor in US pharmacy/medical/dental/optometry schools, and rightly so.

 

[azPharmD2B]

To add to what Eelo said:

How would you feel if your doctor/nurse/pharmacist were giving you care instructions verbally and you hardly understood them? Or if you had to continually ask them to repeat something because you didn't understand them. Or even worse, you think you understand them, but aren't sure, but you're too embarassed to ask them to repeat for fear of offending them, so you just hope for the best.

 

[azPharmD2B]

That's why they require English Composition & Public Speaking in Pre-pharm.

Getting A's in those is not enough proof that one can understand English and communicate well? (it's a question)

Grade inflation. Apathetic instructor. Cheating by having someone else write your papers. There's all sorts of ways for someone to get a grade they don't really deserve, it happens all the time.

Is it not enough proof that you should be a pharmacist by simply passing pharmacy school? Nope, they make you take a test and prove it, for good reason too.

 

[eelo]

Grade inflation. Apathetic instructor. Cheating by having someone else write your papers. There's all sorts of ways for someone to get a grade they don't really deserve, it happens all the time.

Is it not enough proof that you should be a pharmacist by simply passing pharmacy school? Nope, they make you take a test and prove it, for good reason too.

You know..... someone who earned a legitimate A in speech, public speaking, or English comp isn't going to have much of a problem demonstrating an ability to communicate effectively in English.

Someone who got those grades in a less-than-legitimate manner might have reason to be concerned.

 

[No1 Pusher]

😕I don't get how "English/Communication" can be one of the factors to why applicants with GPA 3.9 PCAT 99 be rejected? Assuming that English Composition & Public Speaking were taken during prepharm, with a 3.9 GPA, your English/Public Speaking grades must've been A's. (A= Proof)

I thought Pre-pharm GPA/PCAT are the main KEYS to confirm if one is competent enough togo to the next level which is Pharm School.

Hmm....

 

[No1 Pusher]

lol azpharmd2b already replied. I just saw ur reply right after I entered post #24.

 

[busyizzy]

😕I don't get how "English/Communication" can be one of the factors to why applicants with GPA 3.9 PCAT 99 be rejected? Assuming that English Composition & Public Speaking were taken during prepharm, with a 3.9 GPA, your English/Public Speaking grades must've been A's. (A= Proof)

I thought Pre-pharm GPA/PCAT are the main KEYS to confirm if one is competent enough togo to the next level which is Pharm School.

Hmm....

GPA might be an important factor, but the fact that people with high GPAs get rejected means they're not the only thing that counts - like everyone before has stressed, it's the whole package that counts, and even if you are fantastically outstanding in one area, if you don't have much to offer in the other areas, well, you do the math.

 

[omnione]

😕I don't get how "English/Communication" can be one of the factors to why applicants with GPA 3.9 PCAT 99 be rejected? Assuming that English Composition & Public Speaking were taken during prepharm, with a 3.9 GPA, your English/Public Speaking grades must've been A's. (A= Proof)

I thought Pre-pharm GPA/PCAT are the main KEYS to confirm if one is competent enough togo to the next level which is Pharm School.

Hmm....

One word: Interview

Even though I recommend taking a public speaking class to everybody looking at any professional schooling, there really isn't a good class that teaches the type of interpersonal communication needed to have an effective interview. Even an A in public speaking doesn't guarantee anything about one's ability to communicate. Remember, if GPA was accurate enough to gauge a student's aptitude at school and at the pharmacy school level, then the PCAT would have been factored into admissions.😉

Still, the most important moment of the admissions process is that interview where there's less guesswork by the adcoms since they meet you face-to-face. Choke on either the interview and/or the writing sample, and they'll wonder a little even if you got an A in public speaking and composition (of course, they may used that grade and LOR testimony to see that your interview was atypical)

Like others have said, being a good pharmacist requires more than talent at reading a professor and his/her textbook; it requires adequate communication. Sure, a C in gen bio would look worse than a C in public speaking and a person with great stats but weaker communication skills has a better chance than the person with great communication skills but weak academic performance. However, you mustn't discount the need have communication aptitude in a profession where the patient depends on you to convey treatment to them.

 

[Lotka]

As a non-native speaker, I can't help feeling like being treated unfair about this.... It is unfair to use language skills as a competitive factor for admission. However, I agree there should not be a MINIMUM requirment of langauge proficiency needed for pharmacy profession. Just like TOFEL/TSE (test of spoken English) that foreign nurses have to pass to obtain nursing licensure in the US.

But using on-site essay/writing/oral skils/PCAT essay as the basis of consideration is unfair... They overrate "English" language skills and gives unfair advantage for native speaker over immigrants.

Language skills should be graded or considered with PASSING/FAILING attitude.
Pharmcists does not need to be extremely articulate...
PharmD is not equivalent to Master degree in Journalism or English Literature!

I not trying to sound harsh, but when you are talking about peoples lives, it is kind of important to have a really strong grasp of the English language. This is primarily true if one is planning on practicing where English is spoken. It is important to be able to communicate clearly and effectively with the patient base that one deals with as a pharmacist.

 

[Vr6]

i think the ability to communicate is very important for a pharmacist. ever tried tech support with the outsourced help desks? For example, i had issues with my computer and when i called for support, i had an indian person and i could not understand him.

now imagine a pharmacist trying to tell you that you can't take medication x with y. except you can't even understand what drugs hes refering to,

 

[binghamkid]

i think the ability to communicate is very important for a pharmacist. ever tried tech support with the outsourced help desks? For example, i had issues with my computer and when i called for support, i had an indian person and i could not understand him.

now imagine a pharmacist trying to tell you that you can't take medication x with y. except you can't even understand what drugs hes refering to,

Hehe, dell's notorious for that. Although in recent years I've heard they've begun moving their tech support back to the states.


Anyway, hi Vr6, i guess we'll be future classmates together this fall =)

 

[cystapharm]

There's this girl I know that gets good grades but she got rejected and I wasn't surprised. She just sounds really arrogant and not someone you can confide in. She just doesn't come across as pharmacist material. maybe the interviewers saw that.

 

[gsrthomas]

UOP rejected a distant friend of mine. She had a high GPA. UOP looks for well rounded individuals. IF you are super smart with no social skills and study 24/7 then you WILL most likely get rejected.

 

[PHARMD101]

Folks it is imperative to speak good English (I did not say perfect) to be able to communicate - especially with the ADCOM interviewers.

GPA and PCAT will only land you an interview invitation. Remember the battle starts at the interview. Many people take it too easy and lose focus at the interview and are quietly bumped.

Just as location, location is to a real estate agent/broker - you have to think in terms of interview, interview! Practise with friends, in front of a mirror, wherever you desire........daily! You cannot afford to go blank, freeze-mode, as in trying to make up an answer......You have to show full confidence in yourself and be ready to professionally respond.

Don't forget to prepare a few good questions yourselves.......it shows you are a serious contender.

Many falter on their interview and have to go home asking themselves, WHY?
Then they waste another year preparing all over again.

You need to know your personal statement, resume, and answers to specific questions to each university you applied to, like the back of your hand. Please do not try to read your file a day or two before the interview........you are only asking for a disaster.

Believe me, I am talking from experience, I did all those wrong things and was too overconfident. Well, now I have to start over.

The interview and the essay you write are instrumental, in my opinion, to a
yah or a nay into pharmacy school today. They want you to prove yourself under duress that you are not faking it and you are a motivated person with leader skills.

Fluency in the English language is a plus if you can communicate well - but less than fluent and a good communicator will do just as well!

Good luck to all the pre-pharmacy students applying.........now go practise! 🙂

 

[No1 Pusher]

Folks it is imperative to speak good English (I did not say perfect) to be able to communicate - especially with the ADCOM interviewers.

GPA and PCAT will only land you an interview invitation. Remember the battle starts at the interview. Many people take it too easy and lose focus at the interview and are quietly bumped.

Just as location, location is to a real estate agent/broker - you have to think in terms of interview, interview! Practise with friends, in front of a mirror, wherever you desire........daily! You cannot afford to go blank, freeze-mode, as in trying to make up an answer......You have to show full confidence in yourself and be ready to professionally respond.

Don't forget to prepare a few good questions yourselves.......it shows you are a serious contender.

Many falter on their interview and have to go home asking themselves, WHY?
Then they waste another year preparing all over again.

You need to know your personal statement, resume, and answers to specific questions to each university you applied to, like the back of your hand. Please do not try to read your file a day or two before the interview........you are only asking for a disaster.

Believe me, I am talking from experience, I did all those wrong things and was too overconfident. Well, now I have to start over.

The interview and the essay you write are instrumental, in my opinion, to a
yah or a nay into pharmacy school today. They want you to prove yourself under duress that you are not faking it and you are a motivated person with leader skills.

Fluency in the English language is a plus if you can communicate well - but less than fluent and a good communicator will do just as well!

Good luck to all the pre-pharmacy students applying.........now go practise! 🙂

Curious. What were your stats? gpa? pcat? experience?

 

[lord999]

A high GPA helps you get in the door, but it doesn't guarantee admission. Interview counts for much more than any paper, and should the person fail the interview, it doesn't matter if they were 4.0 student with 99 PCAT and three leadership positions. There are plenty of ways to fail one's interview - like being rude, showing no enthusiasm for pharmacy, being disengaged, showing that your only interest in and knowledge about pharmacy is about the paycheck, showing lack of maturity, etc.

I wish that happened more often...

Actually, there are balance issues as well. I know in Minnesota's case that they strive for a class balance (what can you contribute to the class experiences). It's not a question of whether a candidate is qualified anymore (we have more than enough to fill double the number of seats) but on whether the school thinks the candidate is a good fit for the school and class.

Yes, I've known PLENTY of people who had the right stats who blew the interview or the personal statement. On the other hand, I've seen people who had marginal records get in because they impressed the interviewing panel with their sincerity that their success is guaranteed and that the profession would be better with them in it. It works both ways.

Incidentally, in terms of English communication, I am biased toward having someone with a fluent command of spoken and written English. It just doesn't work if you cannnot be understood. I'm not talking about accents (although if you have a particularly strong one, it's probably best to work on a public speaking voice), but diction, vocabulary, and timely comprehension. Even more, the ability to know what audience you're speaking to and tailor your speech to it (e.g. anticouagulation for health professionals vs. clot-buster for the rest of us). A (danger) sign that someone really doesn't know what they're talking about is if I hear someone inappropriately mixing jargon with vernacular language (in plain English: mixing technobabble for normal talk).

I don't care about grades, period. As far as I know from the Midwestern process, I don't even see them (I believe Minnesota is the same way for interviewers). I do care about how one presents themselves in front of me. If you can't put up a reasonable professional demeanor for less than 10 minutes, I'm probably not going to vote for your application regardless of scores.

 

[Rumplestiltazepam]

As a non-native speaker, I can't help feeling like being treated unfair about this.... It is unfair to use language skills as a competitive factor for admission. However, I agree there should not be a MINIMUM requirment of langauge proficiency needed for pharmacy profession. Just like TOFEL/TSE (test of spoken English) that foreign nurses have to pass to obtain nursing licensure in the US.

But using on-site essay/writing/oral skils/PCAT essay as the basis of consideration is unfair... They overrate "English" language skills and gives unfair advantage for native speaker over immigrants.

Language skills should be graded or considered with PASSING/FAILING attitude.
Pharmcists does not need to be extremely articulate...
PharmD is not equivalent to Master degree in Journalism or English Literature!

Communicating is overrated....Just tell the patient to figure it out on their own.

 

[RX CARE]

As a non-native speaker, I can't help feeling like being treated unfair about this.... It is unfair to use language skills as a competitive factor for admission. However, I agree there should not be a MINIMUM requirment of langauge proficiency needed for pharmacy profession. Just like TOFEL/TSE (test of spoken English) that foreign nurses have to pass to obtain nursing licensure in the US.

But using on-site essay/writing/oral skils/PCAT essay as the basis of consideration is unfair... They overrate "English" language skills and gives unfair advantage for native speaker over immigrants.

Language skills should be graded or considered with PASSING/FAILING attitude.
Pharmcists does not need to be extremely articulate...
PharmD is not equivalent to Master degree in Journalism or English Literature!

OMG!! I cannot believe what my eyes are reading!! You can't possibly be serious. I understand people have the passion to be pharmacists and such, but you cannot seriously consider it bias against you if you are not proficient in English. A simple analogy will be going to china, and then complaining about being biased into gaining admission into medical school because you cannot read or write chinese. How would you study? How would you practice?

Ironically, there are tons of people on this forum that post high grades and acceptances, but have horrible grammar and sentence syntax. I usually wonder how they wrote their PS, or how they went through with interviews. At the end of the day, it just proves that not many of the native speakers pursue the field, then I 100% believe that a lot more weight would be added to the mastery and command of the language, and a lot of foreigners will be in the backseat.

Please don't complain; if you want to serve the people, on THEIR land, especially with medical care, you got to know the language.Don't push them. They are already trying hard enough to integrate spanish into the whole mix. I understand that you probably can get it done with hand signs, inarticulations and incomplete sentences. But there's also such a thing as professionalism, and your poor grammar tarnishes the image of whoever educated you or whoever hired you. The language can easily be learned if you commit yourself to a language workshop.

 

[RNtoPharmD]

OMG!! A simple analogy will be going to china, and then complaining about being biased into gaining admission into medical school because you cannot read or write chinese. How would you study? How would you practice?

Ironically, there are tons of people on this forum that post high grades and acceptances, but have horrible grammar and sentence syntax. I usually wonder how they wrote their PS, or how they went through with interviews.

Thank you all for comments.🙂 Working in healthcare environment, I can see how important the langauge skill is. My point is only that it would be nice if pharm school do not to use it as a "favorable" factor in consideration. For example, we can use "pass/fail" grade on the writing section on PCAT.
However, the candidate should demonstarted sufficient langauge proficiency required to interact with patients. That's why we require foreign nurses to take TOFEL or TSE(test of spoken English). In hospital, there are foreign nurses and doctors who have accents, make minor grammartical mistakes (a, an, the, plural), and don't use sophisicated words/ syntax/ idiom ... but they have strong knowledge and clinical skills and take good care of patient..
On the other hand, there are less competent doctors and nurses who speak perfect English..

Mastery of language is not everything.

Many of the arguments above have gone too far.. like giving example of the situations when the person obviously lacks good command in English..

 

[RNtoPharmD]

A simple analogy will be going to china, and then complaining about being biased into gaining admission into medical school because you cannot read or write chinese. How would you study? How would you practice?

That's the extreme case🙂

 

[mtgirl]

At Shenandoah University's open house, an example was given of two students with 3.87 GPA's and 90 something PCAT's rejected. The reason...Bad Interview! One student gave short, clipped answers to the questions and the other used a swear word.

They stated that if you get a "not recommended" from your interview you don't get in...period.

 

[binghamkid]

Thank you all for comments.🙂 Working in healthcare environment, I can see how important the langauge skill is. My point is only that it would be nice if pharm school do not to use it as a "favorable" factor in consideration. For example, we can use "pass/fail" grade on the writing section on PCAT.
However, the candidate should demonstarted sufficient langauge proficiency required to interact with patients. That's why we require foreign nurses to take TOFEL or TSE(test of spoken English). In hospital, there are foreign nurses and doctors who have accents, make minor grammartical mistakes (a, an, the, plural), and don't use sophisicated words/ syntax/ idiom ... but they have strong knowledge and clinical skills and take good care of patient..
On the other hand, there are less competent doctors and nurses who speak perfect English..

Mastery of language is not everything.

Many of the arguments above have gone too far.. like giving example of the situations when the person obviously lacks good command in English..

While you are right that mastery of the language is not everything, if you consider it from the pharmacy school's point of view, then it makes complete sense that they evaluate you on your ability to communicate. Your ability to communicate is a skill, just like any other skill you might have (the ability to think, the ability to work creatively, the ability to collaborate with others, the ability to be a leader). The adcoms' goal is to pick the best matriculating class each year that they can; to do so, they will evaluate you on every point they can to make sure they find the best candidates. Some candidates with less than perfect communication skills will make it in to the matriculating class because they have other skills or experiences the adcoms deem to be valuable. Other candidates have superb communication skills and still won't make it in because they lack something the adcoms believe is necessary for a successful pharmacist. Either way, the point is that the ability to communicate has been, and always will be, the foundation to professional practice. If you can speak fluent English with an accent, the adcoms will NOT hold that against you. They aren't asking for complex sentence structures, they're just asking for clarity. If you can speak like you're supposed to write (in clear, complete sentences), then you will be fine. If you go to any job (not even pharmacy-related), the first thing everyone evaluates you on is your ability to communicate. Pharmacy school will not be any different.

 

[ForcedEntry]

That's why they require English Composition & Public Speaking in Pre-pharm.

Getting A's in those is not enough proof that one can understand English and communicate well? (it's a question)

NO, IT'S NOT.

 

[No1 Pusher]

NO, IT'S NOT.

If so, then how did the applicants understand the lectures(Pre-Pharm) taught in English, Books, Tests, Writing Essays, PCAT, with almost perfect score?

Public Speech- Im sure the applicant had to do presentations & interviews.

Maybe..... and Maybe only if they have 3.9 GPA but 40-60 PCAT, then you can say there was Grade inflation. Probably cheated or Must've been the teacher's pet to get that 3.9 GPA. With 3.9 PrePharm GPA + 99 PCAT? I don't think I can/should question that person If he/she understands English or have a sufficient communication ability. Would you question a person's ability who have graduated from Harvard?

PCAT scores shows how you did in Math, Science, English. No?

 

[No1 Pusher]

Thank you all for comments.🙂 Working in healthcare environment, I can see how important the langauge skill is. My point is only that it would be nice if pharm school do not to use it as a "favorable" factor in consideration. For example, we can use "pass/fail" grade on the writing section on PCAT.
However, the candidate should demonstarted sufficient langauge proficiency required to interact with patients. That's why we require foreign nurses to take TOFEL or TSE(test of spoken English). In hospital, there are foreign nurses and doctors who have accents, make minor grammartical mistakes (a, an, the, plural), and don't use sophisicated words/ syntax/ idiom ... but they have strong knowledge and clinical skills and take good care of patient..
On the other hand, there are less competent doctors and nurses who speak perfect English..

Mastery of language is not everything.

Many of the arguments above have gone too far.. like giving example of the situations when the person obviously lacks good command in English..

I understand what you are saying.

My Physician who has a good rep speaks with wrong grammar along with the accent all the time but with a sufficient english knowledge, I am able to understand him clearly/comfortably.

My Physician is a good example of a professional in the Health field who doesn't neccessarily need to have a Journalist/English Strength for Patient Care. I've seen/heard others, not just him.


I never said it's a fact professionals in the Health doesn't need to be really reallly really fluent in English. I was just showing RNPharmd how I understand her point of view. So please read before the bashing comments.

 

[eelo]

I don't think I can/should question that person If he/she understands English or have a sufficient communication ability. Would you question a person's ability who have graduated from Harvard?

PCAT scores shows how you did in Math, Science, English. No?

You're missing the point. It's not the student's comprehension that's in question here, it's the student's/pharmacist's ability to communicate with others, to make himself/herself understood. Academia is not the real world. A working pharmacist needs to be able to communicate with patients from a variety of backgrounds; purely academic English isn't going to be enough.

For example: in Japan, there is a huge market for native English speakers to teach conversational English classes. Many, many Japanese have been studying English from texts for many, many years, but they realize that what they learned from textbooks isn't the same as the conversational English one uses to communicae with others. A Harvard graduate whose work is primarily in a research setting, with others of similar academic backgrounds, isn't going to need to have the same ability to communicate with the general public as a working pharmacist would, so your comparison is invalid.

 

[gvsk]

i have friends who got rejectd who had gpa of 4.0 althought the prog at that school is ighly competitive 36 spots

 

[No1 Pusher]

You're missing the point. It's not the student's comprehension that's in question here, it's the student's/pharmacist's ability to communicate with others, to make himself/herself understood. Academia is not the real world. A working pharmacist needs to be able to communicate with patients from a variety of backgrounds; purely academic English isn't going to be enough.

For example: in Japan, there is a huge market for native English speakers to teach conversational English classes. Many, many Japanese have been studying English from texts for many, many years, but they realize that what they learned from textbooks isn't the same as the conversational English one uses to communicae with others. A Harvard graduate whose work is primarily in a research setting, with others of similar academic backgrounds, isn't going to need to have the same ability to communicate with the general public as a working pharmacist would, so your comparison is invalid.

What is the point of training the student in prepharm with Public Speech/Composition?

In Prepharm, with Public Speech/Composition, you are taught how to understand English, and communicate effectively with others/public.

My point is... getting an A in Public Speech/Composition shows that you have
excelled in those Area. (communicating effectively, writing, etc..)

Meaning, you know how to communicate effectively(if not then you would've failed the class), and with 99 PCAT, shows you can comprehend and read write English very well.

 

[busyizzy]

A Harvard graduate whose work is primarily in a research setting, with others of similar academic backgrounds, isn't going to need to have the same ability to communicate with the general public as a working pharmacist would, so your comparison is invalid.

That's a great point, and reminds me of another example. Many professors at universities are actually in it for the research and teaches as a side thing, for various different reasons. There are many professors, me and my friends agree, that are excellent researchers in their field, however when it comes to teaching, they just can't teach the material!! They do not understand we are students seeing the information for the first time, and they don't understand we're not all geniuses in the field, and somewhere, communication falters. (And grades drop ... sigh!)

I think it's a parallel example to what happens as a pharmacist: you could be brilliant at all the classes you have to take in pharm school, but it doesn't mean anything as a pharmacist if you can't, as many others have already stressed, explain it in layman's terms to your patients and/or customers. It takes a certain skill to be able to take what you know and explain it so your audience - whoever it is - can understand. If it is a college professor, well, you can use highly technical terms without communication problems, but if it is the average joe on the street, you better not include terms you've learnt from organic chemistry or something.

From my original example, the students get the raw end of the deal here, and in a pharmacy setting, the patient would get the raw end of the deal. What are they supposed to do if they don't understand their pharmacist?? Sure, you can talk to other pharmacists, but the ideal situation is you wouldn't need to turn to any other sources, and your pharmacist can provide you with any information you need regarding your medicine clearly in a way you can understand.

 

[eelo]

What is the point of training the student in prepharm with Public Speech/Composition?

In Prepharm, with Public Speech/Composition, you are taught how to understand English, and communicate effectively with others/public.

My point is... getting an A in Public Speech/Composition shows that you have
excelled in those Area. (communicating effectively, writing, etc..)

Meaning, you know how to communicate effectively(if not then you would've failed the class), and with 99 PCAT, shows you can comprehend and read write English very well.

How can I make this any simpler? NO, IT DOESN'T. Regardless of your grade in that class (or how you got it), if you get to the written portion of the application, or the in-person interview, and you can't be understood, or you can't get your point across, the adcom isn't going to be impressed.

More likely, they'll question the validity of any other high marks received from the same institution that would grant an A in Speech to someone who can't communicate.

You are aware that there are schools that will offer Speech/Communication classes on-line, right? And that there's really no way to verify that he work that's being turned in is that of the actual student? As was explained quite clearly earlier, there are any number of ways a person could get an A in that class and still not be able to communicate. Also, how would an adcom compare Speech/Communication ability between students---- certainly not by the grades; you simply can't compare classes between institutions. That's why there's an interview..... DUH.

 

[ForcedEntry]

If so, then how did the applicants understand the lectures(Pre-Pharm) taught in English, Books, Tests, Writing Essays, PCAT, with almost perfect score?

Public Speech- Im sure the applicant had to do presentations & interviews.

Maybe..... and Maybe only if they have 3.9 GPA but 40-60 PCAT, then you can say there was Grade inflation. Probably cheated or Must've been the teacher's pet to get that 3.9 GPA. With 3.9 PrePharm GPA + 99 PCAT? I don't think I can/should question that person If he/she understands English or have a sufficient communication ability. Would you question a person's ability who have graduated from Harvard?

PCAT scores shows how you did in Math, Science, English. No?

What you horribly fail to realize with your myopia is just because you can understand and record the English language, it DOES NOT imply you can effectively ORATE your message.

Communication is MORE than books!