High stats applicant disappointed by interview invitations. What did I do wrong?

[EdgeTrimmer]

But that's very different from only applying T10 because you don't want to go if you can't go there.

That must be N=1 situation you despise so much.

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[KnightDoc]

That must be N=1 situation you despise so much.

No -- that's what @gonnif is describing. He's saying people do it (maybe not T10, but T20), and then they are sorry when it doesn't work out. Your kid didn't only apply T10, did he?? If not, that's a different story.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

No -- that's what @gonnif is describing. He's saying people do it (maybe not T10, but T20), and then they are sorry when it doesn't work out. Your kid didn't only apply T10, did he?? If not, that's a different story.

Again how many applicants @gonnif taking about over his long experience and then divide that with years and you will probably end up with N=1 Do you think after being active on SDN for 3 years I would ask my kid to apply to only T10s even if I think he is "entitled" to T1 (depends on which rankings you use)?

 

[KnightDoc]

Again how many applicants @gonnif taking about over his long experience and then divide that with years and you will probably end up with N=1 Do you think after being active on SDN for 3 years I would ask my kid to apply to only T10s even if I think he is "entitled" to T1 (depends on which rankings you use)?

No, but this is what you said:

As per advice, everyone gives different opinions and one should figure out which one to take. For example for my kid, one adcom here said his listing is too top heavy and should target different schools but his premed advisor said he should aim high and he went with that. So far 70% of IIs are from so called T10s (I am not going to give the #s of IIs).

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

No, but this is what you said:

70% IIs from T10s means that remaining 30% are not from T10s, doesn't that mean he didn't apply to T10s only?

 

[KnightDoc]

70% IIs from T10s means that remaining 30% are not from T10s, doesn't that mean he didn't apply to T10s only?

True, but it doesn't mean he didn't apply mostly T10, or T20.

In any event, if he's talented enough, nothing wrong with it, as long as he doesn't come here whining if it doesn't work out!

 

[FalconSlice]

OP, either you are extremely entitled, over estimated yourself, or really did not have a good bearing on how this process works. Just because of great stats is not an unlock to all interviews. 8 IIs is a great start. Be thankful for what you have and put your pride away.

Btw, I'm removed by many years but holy sh** 43 secondaries?! How many schools do people usually apply to nowadays?! I only applied to 15 MD-PhD/MSTPs in my day. Man the world has changed...

 

[KnightDoc]

OP, either you are extremely entitled, over estimated yourself, or really did not have a good bearing on how this process works. Just because of great stats is not an unlock to all interviews. 8 IIs is a great start. Be thankful for what you have and put your pride away.

Btw, I'm removed by many years but holy sh** 43 secondaries?! How many schools do people usually apply to nowadays?! I only applied to 15 MD-PhD/MSTPs in my day. Man the world has changed...

It hasn't changed that much! Typical today is mid 20s to low 30s. In fact, 43 is an indication that OP realized the app wasn't super strong, so he was really spreading his bets. Given that he overestimated T20 viability, that actually turned out to be a very smart move that resulted in 8 IIs so far!

 

[TheDataKing]

alright, this thread is devolving. OP got the advice they wanted. Let's keep it civil, everyone. (I will lock this thread if this continues)

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

True, but it doesn't mean he didn't apply mostly T10, or T20.

In any event, if he's talented enough, nothing wrong with it, as long as he doesn't come here whining if it doesn't work out!

Since you are very curious to know, my kid only applied to T20s + couple of ISs schools which are not T20s. I hope we don't get to whining situation but god forbid if that happens I will whine to you privately

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

OP, either you are extremely entitled, over estimated yourself, or really did not have a good bearing on how this process works. Just because of great stats is not an unlock to all interviews. 8 IIs is a great start. Be thankful for what you have and put your pride away.

Btw, I'm removed by many years but holy sh** 43 secondaries?! How many schools do people usually apply to nowadays?! I only applied to 15 MD-PhD/MSTPs in my day. Man the world has changed...

25 seems to be the average now a days.

 

[TheDataKing]

25 seems to be the average now a days.

That sounds like bias - the median has held steady at 15 applications/applicant for the last 3 years. Again, please stop arguing or I will lock the thread as this is going nowhere productive.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

That sounds like bias - the median has held steady at 15 applications/applicant for the last 3 years. Again, please stop arguing or I will lock the thread as this is going nowhere productive.
View attachment 322506

May be that's SDN average. Most signatures I have seen indicated 20+ applications.

 

[deleted1064759]

It also seems you are a traditional applicant OP. Ten years ago, I'd imagine you would be drowning in T20 IIs but these days it seems much more holistic. This is what I understand from reading the mdapps from the likes of Nicknaylor, belvita, etc

To me it seems like those who acquire the lion's share of T20 IIs today are nontrads with PhDs, military veterans, high stat URMs, and people with compelling life stories (e.g. cancer survivors, high-level professionals).

The rest of us should thank our lucky stars that we have at least one T20 II. It's always good to shoot for the stars, but also adjust your expectations.

 

[TheDataKing]

May be that's SDN average. Most signatures I have seen indicated 20+ applications.

No that's from the MSQ - matriculating student questionnaire from AAMC. The vast majority of applicants do not apply for 25+ schools. Clearly 50% apply to over 15 but 50% also apply to under 15

 

[borrawin95]

I understand where you’re coming from OP. You certainly haven’t read the room but that aside its normal to feel disappointed when you aren’t reaching a pre-set goal for yourself.

However, you’re doing great and I would just focus on the factors that are currently in your control (interviews, update letters, etc.).

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

No that's from the MSQ - matriculating student questionnaire from AAMC. The vast majority of applicants do not apply for 25+ schools. Clearly 50% apply to over 15 but 50% also apply to under 15

I was referring to how I came up with average number of apps which is based on SDN observations not AAMC data. You are the number cruncher and I am just an observer ☺️

 

[Premed35671]

To put this post in perspective, I have almost identical stats and ECs and currently have 3 IIs out of the 40 schools I applied to.

 

[deleted1025488]

To add on to what others said, you have pretty low non-clinical hours, from which I can extrapolate that you probably didn't do anything super unique or devoted a lot of time to something impactful in a community (obviously just an assumption, correct me if I'm wrong). The vast majority of people I've seen getting into "T20"s or whatever, from my university at least, appear to have one activity that really stands above the rest and everyone else in the former regard.

If you're rocking 500 hours of scribing, 100 hours of soup kitchen volunteering, and high stats, your results are frankly really good...unless you went to Africa and started an organization to help spread awareness about X or Y and impacted a bunch of kids, I don't see why you should be upset with your results (half satire and half not, haha).

 

[Goro]

It's that time in the cycle. Early on, we see lots of posts like "I sent in my apps, where are all my IIs???"

Now it's the "I've only gotten [1-5] IIs from T10 5/10/20 schools; what's wrong with me?"

SDNers are advised to not think that they are God's gift to Medicine, and realize that this whole process is like the Olympics. No matter how good you are, a 0.1 second might differentiate you from a medal or nothing. The obsession with Really Top Schools needs to be throttled, because the goal is to get into A medical school, not THE medical school. After all, if Albany or Drexel is your only accept, will you turn that down???

SDNers are also advised to not let their applications define their personhood, and think that they are somehow lacking as human beings if they can't get into a Really Top School. You are not a defective being simply because you get into Emory or Wake.

And if Tiger Parents are driving this behavior, tell them you love them, but it's your career and life, not theirs.

 

[viralhiker]

This is a weird post. I dont get why so many are offering potential explanations (poor LOR, lack of hours, etc, etc) for a perceived deficit of interviews received by OP?? They have 8 interviews! Two of them in the top 20! There is clearly nothing acting against OP here except their own inflated expectations and simple luck and statistics.

 

[Goro]

This is a weird post. I dont get why so many are offering potential explanations (poor LOR, lack of hours, etc, etc) for a perceived deficit of interviews received by OP?? They have 8 interviews! Two of them in the top 20! There is clearly nothing acting against OP here except their own inflated expectations and simple luck and statistics.

It's a teaching moment; we can't resist. We're also allergic to entitlement.

 

[Verynervouspremed]

Just my theory, but I think if someone has multiple t20 II's, it is highly unlikely that there is a red flag in their app. As others have said, I think OP's expectations may have simply been too high.

 

[candbgirl]

As my signature shows, I have a LM of about 79 (522 MCAT, 3.97 cGPA, 4.0 sGPA) and of 43 secondaries I've gotten 8 II's so far, from a mix of schools but only one T10 and one T20. I'm white, upper-middle class, and a PA resident. I have 500 hours of clinical volunteering, 100 non-clinical, 1500 research. I've seen lots of other applicants with similar stats get a way higher proportion of interview invites than me so far, and even applicants with lower stats doing better than me.

So I guess I just want to find out if my failure to get more and better II's is due to a red flag: perhaps bad LOR, or something off-putting in my PS or another part of my application? If it's just that my application isn't very good that's fine, I understand lots of people are more competitive than me, I'm just wondering if there's something crippling in my application that I'm not aware of.

Really???? Eight interviews and it’s November 6?? Count your blessings or luck or whatever you count as you count your interviews.

 

[candbgirl]

Can't simply tell by EC hours and stats. Quality of ECs varies from candidate to candidate and then personal statement.

And I for one would love to read the PS.

 

[proudofmykids]

It also seems you are a traditional applicant OP. Ten years ago, I'd imagine you would be drowning in T20 IIs but these days it seems much more holistic. This is what I understand from reading the mdapps from the likes of Nicknaylor, belvita, etc

To me it seems like those who acquire the lion's share of T20 IIs today are nontrads with PhDs, military veterans, high stat URMs, and people with compelling life stories (e.g. cancer survivors, high-level professionals).

The rest of us should thank our lucky stars that we have at least one T20 II. It's always good to shoot for the stars, but also adjust your expectations.

Agreed, the T20s matriculate about 1/3 traditional students (1 or 0 gap years) and even fewer true traditional. I don't know howmthis stay compare to all applicants though.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Agreed, the T20s matriculate about 1/3 traditional students (1 or 0 gap years) and even fewer true traditional. I don't know howmthis stay compare to all applicants though.

Isn't your D one of true traditional applicants with multiple T20 acceptances?

 

[PigsHaveWings]

In all honesty, it is hard to get into a top 30 medical school, as a traditional student, in a non-elite UG school. My bias, would be that most non-elite UG students who get into the T30 medical schools, have probably done a gap year of something extraordinary.

I thing we are taking this slamming on SDN of students wanting to go into T30 medical schools too far in this forum. I understand it is great and very difficult to get into any MD school, but there is nothing wrong in anybody aspiring to get into a T30 medical school, and asking specific questions related to that dream.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

In all honesty, it is hard to get into a top 30 medical school, as a traditional student, in a non-elite UG school. .

Which ones you consider are elite for UG? T20 by USNWR?

 

[Goro]

In all honesty, it is hard to get into a top 30 medical school, as a traditional student, in a non-elite UG school. My bias, would be that most non-elite UG students who get into the T30 medical schools, have probably done a gap year of something extraordinary.

I thing we are taking this slamming on SDN of students wanting to go into T30 medical schools too far in this forum. I understand it is great and very difficult to get into any MD school, but there is nothing wrong in anybody aspiring to get into a T30 medical school, and asking specific questions related to that dream.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to aim high. I routinely advise rockstars to do as such.

But too many posters have an attitude of Top 5, 10, 20 or bust, as if there are no other medical schools, or those medical schools are beneath them.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I routinely advise rockstars to do as such.

how do you define rock star? You seem to think lot of service is what makes one rock star. Other adcoms or premed advisors seems to have different definitions.

 

[PigsHaveWings]

how do you define rock star? You seem to think lot of service is what makes one rock star. Other adcoms or premed advisors seems to have different definitions.

The metrics are probably different for each level of school, and I am not sure this one size fits all is true.

I suspect when you look at the T20 schools clinical experience, research, LOR starts getting more important.

 

[PigsHaveWings]

Which ones you consider are elite for UG? T20 by USNWR?

Like it or not, I dont think we have a better scale than the USNWR. This is not perfect for undergraduate rankings, but comes close enough to be regarded as the gold standard

 

[KnightDoc]

how do you define rock star? You seem to think lot of service is what makes one rock star. Other adcoms or premed advisors seems to have different definitions.

I actually agree with everything he is saying here. He's saying aim high, but don't take anything for granted, and have no sense of entitlement, because you're not entitled to anything until you earn it. And, if you don't get into T20, then by definition you are not too good for T30, 50, whatever (in reality, nobody is! ) , so get over yourself.

Service, research, pubs, whatever -- there are different ways to be a rock star, but I'm pretty sure we can all agree that it takes more than great stats, as evidenced by the fact that top schools don't have a 3.9/520 10%-ile, and plenty of high stat people find themselves shut out. So what exactly do you not agree with here???

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Service, research, pubs, whatever -- there are different ways to be a rock star, but I'm pretty sure we can all agree that it takes more than great stats, as evidenced by the fact that top schools don't have a 3.9/520 10%-ile, and plenty of high stat people find themselves shut out. So what exactly do you not agree with here???

Did I say I am not agreeing? I never said stats make you a rock star (see my very first response in this thread). I am simply asking what's Goro's definition of rock star. As I said earlier my kid got different opinions, SDN experts thought he is aiming too high and his premed advisor thought differently. However premed advisor has reviewed everything including personal statement, writeup of activities, LORs before recommending school list so inputs are different.

 

[Dr.K124]

In all honesty, it is hard to get into a top 30 medical school, as a traditional student, in a non-elite UG school. My bias, would be that most non-elite UG students who get into the T30 medical schools, have probably done a gap year of something extraordinary.

I thing we are taking this slamming on SDN of students wanting to go into T30 medical schools too far in this forum. I understand it is great and very difficult to get into any MD school, but there is nothing wrong in anybody aspiring to get into a T30 medical school, and asking specific questions related to that dream.

The only reason it's difficult is that you have less time to develop EC's and study for the MCAT. It's not like medical schools actually apply a malus to traditional applicants.

Someone with a 3.9/520 and 500 hours in both clinical and nonclinical hours (just threw out random numbers) would have virtually the same chance of getting in whether they're traditional or took 2 gap years.

Getting into a T30 medical school from a non-elite undergrad is more difficult than from an elite undergrad in general. There's enough data (and ADCOM surveys) out there to show that top medical schools have a bias for selectivity of undergrad. However, as others have mentioned, the goal is to get into any medical school.

 

[deleted1025488]

Did I say I am not agreeing? I never said stats make you a rock star (see my very first response in this thread). I am simply asking what's Goro's definition of rock star. As I said earlier my kid got different opinions, SDN experts thought he is aiming too high and his premed advisor thought differently. However premed advisor has reviewed everything including personal statement, writeup of activities, LORs before recommending school list so inputs are different.

IMO a top-tier applicant would be anyone who has a deep, significantly more than surface-level commitment and impact in any of the big three EC categories and has a 3.8+/5017+ or whatever arbitrary "good" stat benchmark you want to set. There's no point in discussing further because there's literally an infinite combination of things that one could do to achieve that, and after this point subjective factors come into play such as LORs and PS. Like as I said the person who posted this appears to just have surface level ECs and great stats, making them a solid candidate, but nothing extraordinary. I'd guess most trads fall into this category.

 

[PigsHaveWings]

Did I say I am not agreeing? I never said stats make you a rock star (see my very first response in this thread). I am simply asking what's Goro's definition of rock star. As I said earlier my kid got different opinions, SDN experts thought he is aiming too high and his premed advisor thought differently. However premed advisor has reviewed everything including personal statement, writeup of activities, LORs before recommending school list so inputs are different.

Did your children use an outside premed advisor or from their own UG school ?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Did your children use an outside premed advisor or from their own UG school ?

Only their own UG, who previously worked as their medical school adcom.

 

[bajGanyo]

It's unlikely that there is a red flag in your application. If there was, you would not be sitting on 8 II's.

High stats only get you through the door, but it's the rest of the application that gets you the interview and eventual acceptance. Successful candidates to the 'top' schools will not only have high stats, but also a compelling narrative through extracurriculars, achievements, and stellar LORs (i.e the applicant is portrayed to 'walk on water'). There's nothing noteworthy about the hours you listed. It's possible that most of the 'top' schools have evaluated your application and deemed it falling short of one of these high measures, or perhaps you're already in queue for a future invite. Only time will tell.

Regardless, with 8 II's, you are on track to becoming a physician (barring terrible interview performances), so that should be something to be grateful for. I would encourage you to look at this from this perspective. Best of luck.

^This.

 

[jhmmd]

how do you define rock star? You seem to think lot of service is what makes one rock star. Other adcoms or premed advisors seems to have different definitions.

Don't overthink it

IMO a top-tier applicant would be anyone who has a deep, significantly more than surface-level commitment and impact in any of the big three EC categories and has a 3.8+/5017+ or whatever arbitrary "good" stat benchmark you want to set. There's no point in discussing further because there's literally an infinite combination of things that one could do to achieve that, and after this point subjective factors come into play such as LORs and PS. Like as I said the person who posted this appears to just have surface level ECs and great stats, making them a solid candidate, but nothing extraordinary. I'd guess most trads fall into this category.

This is the crux of it. You need to put together a solid app that combines high stats + a personal story that conveys your passion for medicine.

OP I'm not gonna beat a dead horse. Acceptances are handed out up to and after the first day that med school starts. Most acceptances start in the fall, continue into the winter, and into the spring. A lot of lucky people get in over the summer as waitlists dwindle. It's not time to give up hope yet.

 

[Goro]

Like it or not, I dont think we have a better scale than the USNWR. This is not perfect for undergraduate rankings, but comes close enough to be regarded as the gold standard

Do you know what we in medical education call USNWR?

US Snooze and Worst Report

The only people who take it seriously are starry-eyed pre-meds and medical school deans.

 

[PigsHaveWings]

Do you know what we in medical education call USNWR?

US Snooze and Worst Report

The only people who take it seriously are starry-eyed pre-meds and medical school deans.

I am not sure you understood the question @EdgeTrimmer asked me has to do with undergraduate school ratings, not medical school ratings.

Here is his question and my answer was to his question: Which ones you consider are elite for UG? T20 by USNWR?.

So, yes , for steamy eyed high school students and UG deans also, the most applicable list is the USNWR for undergraduate school ratings.

I completely understand that there is no direct way to measure the quality of an institution of how it manages to inspire, inform or challenge its students. The USNWR relies instead on some proxy measures which can be challenged as being flimsy in some ways. However, we don't have a better yardstick to measure colleges, thus most uniformed people like me will continue to rely on it, due to the lack of anything better.

 

[Goro]

I am not sure understood the question @EdgeTrimmer asked me has to do with undergraduate school ratings, not medical school ratings.

Here is his question and my answer was to his question: Which ones you consider are elite for UG? T20 by USNWR?.

So, yes , for steamy eyed high school students and UG deans also, the most applicable list is the USNWR for undergraduate school ratings.

Ahh, my apologies, Pigs, I thought that you were referring to med schools.

 

[KnightDoc]

Ahh, my apologies, Pigs, I thought that you were referring to med schools.

Yeah, because the USNWR ranking list is gold for UG and garbage for med school.

 

[Dr.K124]

Yeah, because the USNWR ranking list is gold for UG and garbage for med school.

I think most people would agree that these rankings are useless aside from general tiers

 

[KnightDoc]

Even for undergraduate it makes little sense aside from the general tiers that schools are in.

I totally get it. I'm pointing out @Goro's hypocrisy in apologizing for misunderstanding that @PigsHaveWings was talking about the UG rankings, implying that they are valid as the "gold standard" for UG while the same list is crap for med school.

 

[Dr.K124]

I totally get it. I'm pointing out @Goro's hypocrisy in apologizing for misunderstanding that @PigsHaveWings was talking about the UG rankings, implying that they are valid as the "gold standard" for UG while the same list is crap for med school.

Yup, I corrected my response once I realized the sarcasm.

 

[KnightDoc]

I think most people would agree that these rankings are useless aside from general tiers

I agree with you, but I'm not so sure "most people" would agree with us. At least one prominent DO admissions administrator who posts here a lot takes the position that it's the "US Snooze and Worst Report," only taken seriously by ill-informed pre-meds and medical school deans.

You are, of course, 1,000% correct. The difference between #1 and #5 is meaningless, as is the difference between #11 and #21. As for the difference between #6 and #66, I do think that means something to a lot of people, although, let's face it, there is nothing wrong with #150, and any school on the list can get most people wherever it is that they are going. It is, however, undeniable that #15 will provide more opportunities to its students than #115.

The irony is, everyone I know who goes to or works at an unranked school thinks the ranking is meaningless, but nobody associated with top ranked schools feels the same way. It's not just stupid pre-meds and know-nothing deans who place value in the list. It's PDs, students, doctors, deans, members of the general public, everyone who buys the list, etc., etc., etc. If this weren't true, Harvard and LECOM would be battling it out each year for the same students, and maybe what @Goro keeps preaching wouldn't ring so hollow.

 

[deleted1025488]

I am not sure you understood the question @EdgeTrimmer asked me has to do with undergraduate school ratings, not medical school ratings.

Here is his question and my answer was to his question: Which ones you consider are elite for UG? T20 by USNWR?.

So, yes , for steamy eyed high school students and UG deans also, the most applicable list is the USNWR for undergraduate school ratings.

I completely understand that there is no direct way to measure the quality of an institution of how it manages to inspire, inform or challenge its students. The USNWR relies instead on some proxy measures which can be challenged as being flimsy in some ways. However, we don't have a better yardstick to measure colleges, thus most uniformed people like me will continue to rely on it, due to the lack of anything better.

HYPSM Chicago JHY tier schools if you're not there it's not going to have an effect, not that it has a major one at all.