Holy poo! Hate for midlevels.

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brightness

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There is some mad midlevel hate on this board...and it scares me, because I may want to be one....and its important for me to work with a doctor. Preferably in a mutually contributing but obviously stratified role...I realize that the push for NPs/PAs to recieve doctoral degrees is making doctors feel like their turf is being invaded, but don't all the people who become midlevels KNOW they will need help/input from a physician? If I become an NP/PA, I won't expect to be autonomous and I won't expect to be completely subservient either.
I just don't want the day to come when I'm an NP or whatever and no doctors will hire me. Lol.

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Midlevels Are The Scum Of The Earth! They Aren't Fit To Lick Doctors' Shoes Or Clean Their Toilets. It Would Be Much Better To Be A C- Med Student Than An A+ Midlevel. Try The Carribean, Try D.o., Just For The Love Of All That Is Holy Do Not Become ONE, Trust ONE , Or Associate With Midlevels!
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Midlevels Are The Scum Of The Earth! They Aren't Fit To Lick Doctors' Shoes Or Clean Their Toilets. It Would Be Much Better To Be A C- Med Student Than An A+ Midlevel. Try The Carribean, Try D.o., Just For The Love Of All That Is Holy Do Not Become ONE, Trust ONE , Or Associate With Midlevels!

Actually, according to residents and attendings, medical students are the lowest form of life on planet earth.
 
What I learned: Doctors don't necessarily have to hire NPs, although they can choose to hire them into their practice.



Holy poo! You've got some homework to do.
 
I don't see the problem. Superivising docs who hate midlevels won't even put out a listing and waste my time. Win-win.

Don't take a job anywhere you can't talk to people informally, and/or observe for a shift or two. Be a smart applicant. My plan is to find an SP who is ten times smarter than me, and twice as easy to get along with. Most critically, I'll work someplace where they want to hire a PA.

The gas we see expressed in some threads and folders at SDN probably has very little bearing on the real world, and in any case the real world is a lot bigger. Don't worry about it.
 
There is some mad midlevel hate on this board...and it scares me, because I may want to be one....and its important for me to work with a doctor. Preferably in a mutually contributing but obviously stratified role...I realize that the push for NPs/PAs to recieve doctoral degrees is making doctors feel like their turf is being invaded, but don't all the people who become midlevels KNOW they will need help/input from a physician? If I become an NP/PA, I won't expect to be autonomous and I won't expect to be completely subservient either.
I just don't want the day to come when I'm an NP or whatever and no doctors will hire me. Lol.

People don't hate midlevels at all - they react poorly and perhaps overdramatically to issues raised on SDN, because through the veil of anonymity, people can and do say whatever they want to goad each other into a pissing match.

If you're good, you'll be appreciated. If you're not, you won't. Lots of happy physician-midlevel relationships & working environments out there. And now that you've got Salamandreamy, you'll be unstoppably charming.
 
My only comment is that it is doctors who are hiring us at a staggering pace. Obviously they see some reason to hire us.

-Mike
 
Thanks for the input, I really do appreciate it. For the record, the PA wannabes I meet where I go to school don't think they will be doctors, or even want to be doctors. I really do think that the midlevels lobbying to be seen as doctors are a small but vocal group.
 
You just need a small but determined and vocal group.

Taurus, I thought of you when I read this article!
Who Will Be Your Doctor?
Mary O' Neil Mundinger 11.28.07, 6:00 AM ET


A quietly emerging trend in health care is likely to have a major effect on
who will diagnose and treat your illness in the coming years. Rather than a
physician, that comprehensive-care provider may very well be a nurse--who
also happens to be a doctor.
As more physicians move toward specialties and away from general care, there
is a troubling lack of providers in this critical health-care sector. The
need is even more urgent in light of the growing number of Americans who are
suffering from chronic illnesses such as asthma, diabetes and hypertension
and require long-term disease treatment and coordination of care. Many
others who survive extraordinary medical interventions or trauma need
sustaining care for the rest of their lives.
The doctor of nursing practice (DNP) is a new level of clinical practice
that is attracting a rapidly growing number of nursing professionals. This
doctoral degree enables advanced-practice nurses to gain the knowledge and
skills necessary to practice independently in every clinical setting.
In Pictures: Innovative Health-Care Solutions
DNPs are the ideal candidates to fill the primary-care void and deliver a
new, more comprehensive brand of care that starts with but goes well beyond
conventional medical practice. In addition to expert diagnosis and
treatment, DNP training places an emphasis on preventive care, risk
reduction and promoting good health practices. These clinicians are peerless
prevention specialists and coordinators of complex care. In other words, as
a patient, you get the medical knowledge of a physician, with the added
skills of a nursing professional.
Truly comprehensive care requires both medical and nursing skills, and
nurses with a clinical doctorate have that complement of abilities. Skilled
at identifying nuanced changes of condition, and intervening early in a
patient's illness, these clinicians are also expert at utilizing community
and family resources, and incorporating patient values into a
family-centered model of care.
Once patients move beyond the common bias that only doctors of medicine can
provide top-flight care, they typically come to appreciate these added
benefits. Most important, research has demonstrated that DNPs, with their
eight years of education and extensive clinical experience, can achieve
clinical outcomes comparable to those of primary-care physicians.
As more advanced-practice nurses pursue this new level of clinical training,
we are working to create a board certification to establish a consistent
standard of competence. To that end, we are working to enable DNPs to take
standardized exams similar in content and format to the test that physicians
must pass to earn their M.D. degrees. By allowing DNPs to take this test,
the medical establishment will give patients definitive evidence that these
skilled clinicians have the ability to provide comprehensive care
indistinguishable from physicians.
Along with a doctorate and the title of "doctor," the fact that a nurse
practitioner has fulfilled this certification requirement will instill
confidence in patients that DNPs have the expertise to serve as their
health-care provider of choice.
Nurse practitioners are reimbursed by Medicare and Medicaid in every state,
but only variably by commercial insurance carriers. That is certain to
change soon, as these DNP graduates prove they are the logical choice to
become the new comprehensive-care clinicians.
As this valuable new resource grows and becomes fully established, the
health-care system's ability to meet the nation's desire for accessible,
high-quality care will be greatly improved, yielding better health for all.
Medical specialists are in short supply; patients increasingly need their
care. With the advent of the DNP clinicians, we can have both dedicated,
brilliant specialists and effective health management. It is the future we
all need and want.
In Pictures: Innovative Health-Care Solutions
Mary O' Neil Mundinger, Dr.P.H., is the Dean of the Columbia University
School of Nursing, which was the first to pioneer the DNP concept.
 
Taurus, I thought of you when I read this article!
Who Will Be Your Doctor?
Mary O' Neil Mundinger 11.28.07, 6:00 AM ET


A quietly emerging trend in health care is likely to have a major effect on
who will diagnose and treat your illness in the coming years. Rather than a
physician, that comprehensive-care provider may very well be a nurse--who
also happens to be a doctor.
As more physicians move toward specialties and away from general care, there
is a troubling lack of providers in this critical health-care sector. The
need is even more urgent in light of the growing number of Americans who are
suffering from chronic illnesses such as asthma, diabetes and hypertension
and require long-term disease treatment and coordination of care. Many
others who survive extraordinary medical interventions or trauma need
sustaining care for the rest of their lives.
The doctor of nursing practice (DNP) is a new level of clinical practice
that is attracting a rapidly growing number of nursing professionals. This
doctoral degree enables advanced-practice nurses to gain the knowledge and
skills necessary to practice independently in every clinical setting.
In Pictures: Innovative Health-Care Solutions
DNPs are the ideal candidates to fill the primary-care void and deliver a
new, more comprehensive brand of care that starts with but goes well beyond
conventional medical practice. In addition to expert diagnosis and
treatment, DNP training places an emphasis on preventive care, risk
reduction and promoting good health practices. These clinicians are peerless
prevention specialists and coordinators of complex care. In other words, as
a patient, you get the medical knowledge of a physician, with the added
skills of a nursing professional.
Truly comprehensive care requires both medical and nursing skills, and
nurses with a clinical doctorate have that complement of abilities. Skilled
at identifying nuanced changes of condition, and intervening early in a
patient's illness, these clinicians are also expert at utilizing community
and family resources, and incorporating patient values into a
family-centered model of care.
Once patients move beyond the common bias that only doctors of medicine can
provide top-flight care, they typically come to appreciate these added
benefits. Most important, research has demonstrated that DNPs, with their
eight years of education and extensive clinical experience, can achieve
clinical outcomes comparable to those of primary-care physicians.
As more advanced-practice nurses pursue this new level of clinical training,
we are working to create a board certification to establish a consistent
standard of competence. To that end, we are working to enable DNPs to take
standardized exams similar in content and format to the test that physicians
must pass to earn their M.D. degrees. By allowing DNPs to take this test,
the medical establishment will give patients definitive evidence that these
skilled clinicians have the ability to provide comprehensive care
indistinguishable from physicians.
Along with a doctorate and the title of "doctor," the fact that a nurse
practitioner has fulfilled this certification requirement will instill
confidence in patients that DNPs have the expertise to serve as their
health-care provider of choice.
Nurse practitioners are reimbursed by Medicare and Medicaid in every state,
but only variably by commercial insurance carriers. That is certain to
change soon, as these DNP graduates prove they are the logical choice to
become the new comprehensive-care clinicians.
As this valuable new resource grows and becomes fully established, the
health-care system's ability to meet the nation's desire for accessible,
high-quality care will be greatly improved, yielding better health for all.
Medical specialists are in short supply; patients increasingly need their
care. With the advent of the DNP clinicians, we can have both dedicated,
brilliant specialists and effective health management. It is the future we
all need and want.
In Pictures: Innovative Health-Care Solutions
Mary O' Neil Mundinger, Dr.P.H., is the Dean of the Columbia University
School of Nursing, which was the first to pioneer the DNP concept.

Wow, what a slanted, heavily opinionated, at times insulting assessment.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Well, she doesn't speak for me. She's one of those ivory tower nurses who spouts theory. I wonder if she knows the working end of thermometer? It's ridiculous to proport that an advanced nursing education can equate the education one gets in medical school. It's just not the same, and she of all people should know better.

It's people like her who give nurses, particularly those who want to be NPs working collaboratively with docs a bad name. She makes all of us look like we're on the fringes with her.
 
Well, she doesn't speak for me. She's one of those ivory tower nurses who spouts theory. I wonder if she knows the working end of thermometer? It's ridiculous to proport that an advanced nursing education can equate the education one gets in medical school. It's just not the same, and she of all people should know better.

It's people like her who give nurses, particularly those who want to be NPs working collaboratively with docs a bad name. She makes all of us look like we're on the fringes with her.

Well, she certainly gave a lot of ammunition to people who think midlevels want to replace physicians. Hell, she flat out states it.

And she is the head of the country's premier NP school.
 
Taurus, I thought of you when I read this article!
Who Will Be Your Doctor?
Mary O' Neil Mundinger 11.28.07, 6:00 AM ET


A quietly emerging trend in health care is likely to have a major effect on
who will diagnose and treat your illness in the coming years. Rather than a
physician, that comprehensive-care provider may very well be a nurse--who
also happens to be a doctor.
As more physicians move toward specialties and away from general care, there
is a troubling lack of providers in this critical health-care sector. The
need is even more urgent in light of the growing number of Americans who are
suffering from chronic illnesses such as asthma, diabetes and hypertension
and require long-term disease treatment and coordination of care. Many
others who survive extraordinary medical interventions or trauma need
sustaining care for the rest of their lives.
The doctor of nursing practice (DNP) is a new level of clinical practice
that is attracting a rapidly growing number of nursing professionals. This
doctoral degree enables advanced-practice nurses to gain the knowledge and
skills necessary to practice independently in every clinical setting.
In Pictures: Innovative Health-Care Solutions
DNPs are the ideal candidates to fill the primary-care void and deliver a
new, more comprehensive brand of care that starts with but goes well beyond
conventional medical practice. In addition to expert diagnosis and
treatment, DNP training places an emphasis on preventive care, risk
reduction and promoting good health practices. These clinicians are peerless
prevention specialists and coordinators of complex care. In other words, as
a patient, you get the medical knowledge of a physician, with the added
skills of a nursing professional.
Truly comprehensive care requires both medical and nursing skills, and
nurses with a clinical doctorate have that complement of abilities. Skilled
at identifying nuanced changes of condition, and intervening early in a
patient's illness, these clinicians are also expert at utilizing community
and family resources, and incorporating patient values into a
family-centered model of care.
Once patients move beyond the common bias that only doctors of medicine can
provide top-flight care, they typically come to appreciate these added
benefits. Most important, research has demonstrated that DNPs, with their
eight years of education and extensive clinical experience, can achieve
clinical outcomes comparable to those of primary-care physicians.
As more advanced-practice nurses pursue this new level of clinical training,
we are working to create a board certification to establish a consistent
standard of competence. To that end, we are working to enable DNPs to take
standardized exams similar in content and format to the test that physicians
must pass to earn their M.D. degrees. By allowing DNPs to take this test,
the medical establishment will give patients definitive evidence that these
skilled clinicians have the ability to provide comprehensive care
indistinguishable from physicians.
Along with a doctorate and the title of "doctor," the fact that a nurse
practitioner has fulfilled this certification requirement will instill
confidence in patients that DNPs have the expertise to serve as their
health-care provider of choice.
Nurse practitioners are reimbursed by Medicare and Medicaid in every state,
but only variably by commercial insurance carriers. That is certain to
change soon, as these DNP graduates prove they are the logical choice to
become the new comprehensive-care clinicians.
As this valuable new resource grows and becomes fully established, the
health-care system's ability to meet the nation's desire for accessible,
high-quality care will be greatly improved, yielding better health for all.
Medical specialists are in short supply; patients increasingly need their
care. With the advent of the DNP clinicians, we can have both dedicated,
brilliant specialists and effective health management. It is the future we
all need and want.
In Pictures: Innovative Health-Care Solutions
Mary O' Neil Mundinger, Dr.P.H., is the Dean of the Columbia University
School of Nursing, which was the first to pioneer the DNP concept.

Mary O' Neil Mundinger, Dr.P.H - either a fraud or delusional - the scary part will be if her vision succeeds.
 
Mundinger has achieved more in one article than my thousand posts have. :thumbup:

I hope to see more similar articles in the future. Thank you, Ms. Mundinger.
 
Holy crap, is that lady for real? Did she really just say that DNPs will have the medical knowledge of a physician? And that they will be able to practice autonomously in all clinical settings (the OR is a clinical setting!)? Complete bullsh*t. I think that type of "ivory tower" doctor-nurse is exactly the vocal (and hopefully in the minority) type of nurse that physicians react so venomously toward.

Good grief.
 
Holy crap, is that lady for real? Did she really just say that DNPs will have the medical knowledge of a physician? And that they will be able to practice autonomously in all clinical settings (the OR is a clinical setting!)? Complete bullsh*t. I think that type of "ivory tower" doctor-nurse is exactly the vocal (and hopefully in the minority) type of nurse that physicians react so venomously toward.

Good grief.

Maybe she's just suffering the effects of oxygen deprivation from being way up in that ivory tower too long.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
Mary O' Neil Mundinger, Dr.P.H - either a fraud or delusional - the scary part will be if her vision succeeds.

I would not be surprised if it comes true, for many reasons.

1) NPs earn considerably less money than MDs, making them preferable in the eyes of managed care.

2) It is not politically correct to talk about "aptitude" "skill" or "intelligence." NPs (with a few exceptions) do not have the aptitude to make it into med school, but anyone who brings up this fact will be frowned upon for being "elitist" and "mean." (Do not expect any NP "board exams" to be anywhere near the USMLE in terms of content or difficulty.)

3) I could train a high school student to follow a protocol for DM or HTN care. As long as that is the metric by which we measure patient care, of course an NP will be just as good as an MD. An LPN would probably be just as good too.

4) Nurses in are constantly exhorted to double-check MDs, be independent, never settle, always strive to become an NP. In other words, it is no longer acceptable in many circles to "just" be a nurse. I've met plenty of not-too-bright nurses with online degrees, who speak of their plans to become NPs as a matter of fact.


I could go on, but... well, it gets even more depressing from there.
 
...that's why I keep reminding everyone that you do have a choice... If you don't use it, stop whining. You are in control of your and the profession's fate.
 
...4) Nurses in are constantly exhorted to double-check MDs, be independent, never settle, always strive to become an NP. In other words, it is no longer acceptable in many circles to "just" be a nurse...

Mundinger is delusional...

I've been doing this over 12 years, and have never been pushed, or even discussed the idea of being an NP...

I've been a nursing instructor, and never have I even discussed being an NP w/ a student (unless she brings up the idea of going from one year out of RN school, right into a master's program - I try to dissuade them from that - Bad plan)

I think 95% of nurses are content in being 'just nurses'

BTW, you may email her at:

[email protected]

her page:

http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/nursing/about-school/faculty/profiles/mundinger_mo.html
 
1) NPs earn considerably less money than MDs, making them preferable in the eyes of managed care.
- NPs where I work start at around 100k. That's what a first-year attending makes here. That's from an attending.


2) It is not politically correct to talk about "aptitude" "skill" or "intelligence." NPs (with a few exceptions) do not have the aptitude to make it into med school, but anyone who brings up this fact will be frowned upon for being "elitist" and "mean." (Do not expect any NP "board exams" to be anywhere near the USMLE in terms of content or difficulty.)

- I would beg to differ. There are more than a few nurses who HAVE taken the MCAT and been accepted to medical school, but chose a different path. It IS "elitist and mean" to assume the intelligence of someone who you hardly know. I mean, how do you really presume to know someone's intelligence and academic abilities that well while passing through as a med student. Or a 1st/2nd year resident? It's too general a statement.

3) I could train a high school student to follow a protocol for DM or HTN care. As long as that is the metric by which we measure patient care, of course an NP will be just as good as an MD. An LPN would probably be just as good too.

- there are many published studies out there that have found that in both primary and specialty care, NPs patients experience the same level of health outcomes that patients who see only MDs have, in addition to having higher patient satisfaction scores, and lower office visits. These are not simply "Wal-Mart" clinic NPs, but primary care NPs, specialty care, etc working in medical groups consisting of MDs, PAs and NPs in all practice areas, including hospital groups.

- Don't all of us learn the "standard of care" for each condition? It's part of our advanced medical management curriculum!

- Why are you comparing an LPN with an 18 month education to a NP, who has a minimum of 6-8 years of class-time?


4) Nurses in are constantly exhorted to double-check MDs, be independent, never settle, always strive to become an NP. In other words, it is no longer acceptable in many circles to "just" be a nurse. I've met plenty of not-too-bright nurses with online degrees, who speak of their plans to become NPs as a matter of fact.

- So what's wrong with wanting more education?
 
People aren't nurses because they couldn't get into medical school. People become nurses because they want to be nurses. I could have went to medical school and put serious thought into it. I decided that nursing would give me much more of what I wanted out of my health care career, so I switched paths and decided to pursue nursing.

Also - for chimichanga. Why do you try to dissuade students from entering right into a masters program or shortly after becoming an RN? Here is an article published by a reputable source that says going straight from RN to NP may actually be the best route.

The article was titled 'Does RN Experience Related to NP Clinical Skills?' and it was published by The Nurse Practitioner Journal in December of 2005.

The article/study concluded that "duration of practice experience as an RN was not correlated with the level of competency in NP practice skills. An unexpected finding was that there was a significant negative correlation between years of experience as a RN and NP clinical practice skills as assessed by the NPs' collaborating physicians. Longer experience as an RN was associated with lower rankings of NP skills competency by the physicians. This information leads us to question longstanding biases that claim that those with little or no experience as RNs are poorly prepared for advanced NP practice."

There were 710,150 nurses who took part in the study.
 
People aren't nurses because they couldn't get into medical school. People become nurses because they want to be nurses. I could have went to medical school and put serious thought into it. I decided that nursing would give me much more of what I wanted out of my health care career, so I switched paths and decided to pursue nursing.

Also - for chimichanga. Why do you try to dissuade students from entering right into a masters program or shortly after becoming an RN? Here is an article published by a reputable source that says going straight from RN to NP may actually be the best route.

The article was titled 'Does RN Experience Related to NP Clinical Skills?' and it was published by The Nurse Practitioner Journal in December of 2005.

The article/study concluded that "duration of practice experience as an RN was not correlated with the level of competency in NP practice skills. An unexpected finding was that there was a significant negative correlation between years of experience as a RN and NP clinical practice skills as assessed by the NPs' collaborating physicians. Longer experience as an RN was associated with lower rankings of NP skills competency by the physicians. This information leads us to question longstanding biases that claim that those with little or no experience as RNs are poorly prepared for advanced NP practice."

There were 710,150 nurses who took part in the study.

I think this article had been chewed up before. It defies logic. So my 35 years of experience in many areas (having seen things many nurses never see) would show a negative correlation in NP school? Maybe I should lay off keeping the new FP physician I work with from asking me how to do stuff? It's liking saying an auto mechanic would suffer if he became a race car driver...what with all that inside knowledge he's carrying around.:D
 
I was just at a hospital with my husband the other day because he has to get a procedure done. I have heard many bad things about RNs (example how rude and nasty they are) but always disagree because one of my closest friend is a RN and she's becoming a NP soon. But I'm sorry to say, I had a really bad experience at the hospital because the RN was extremely unfriendly to patients, coworkers, rude, nasty and think she knows everything more than anyone else. I cannot believe this!!! so disgusted by her action.
 
...for chimichanga. Why do you try to dissuade students from entering right into a masters program or shortly after becoming an RN? Here is an article published by a reputable source that says going straight from RN to NP may actually be the best route...


Maybe I'm biased...I'm not a big fan of NPs...

Having been a DON for an urgent care in the past, we used midlevels...I found many more mismanaged (quote from the medical director) patients from the NPs vs the PAs...Now this is certainly is only one place, but I was there 5 years, and encountered over 15 of each...The NPs routinely 'consulted' the PAs and docs for advice on management of the patient. The PAs were more independent (I frequently worked on the floor, so I had firsthand knowledge of this)...

Furthermore, NPs have less didactic training than PAs...

Would you want a direct entry (new grad) NP, who 4 years ago was flipping burgers, who never worked in an acute care setting (aside from clinicals), managing your health?

Not me...(Nor would I want a new grad PA doing this either, but they are supervised by docs)

Certainly there are exceptions, as there are likely many FNPs practicing independently in rural areas, that have great outcomes...

I'll take PA/MD/DO any day, managing my health...
 
There is some mad midlevel hate on this board...and it scares me, because I may want to be one....and its important for me to work with a doctor. Preferably in a mutually contributing but obviously stratified role...I realize that the push for NPs/PAs to recieve doctoral degrees is making doctors feel like their turf is being invaded, but don't all the people who become midlevels KNOW they will need help/input from a physician? If I become an NP/PA, I won't expect to be autonomous and I won't expect to be completely subservient either.
I just don't want the day to come when I'm an NP or whatever and no doctors will hire me. Lol.


Just a little reminder here to the OP:

If you want to be a midlevel (or anything else) do you need the opinions of other people on an anonymous message board as to how you should run or live your life or participate in a profession?

It's your career to do with or not do with as you see fit.

I don't practice medicine for the approval of others. I practice medicine because I love it. I couldn't care less what anyone "hates" or does not "hate" in terms of my profession.

If you do your job well and love what you do, then you will find it satisfying. There are plenty of physicians out there, myself included, that use mid-level practicioners in their practice. I promise you that I treat everyone in my practice with respect no matter what their job or role in my practice.

Don't seek approval for your life (or profession) on a message board and worry about mastery of your studies rather than what you read on a message board as doing well in your studies, graduating and passing your licensure boards will have more impact on your future employment than opinions on a message board.

Your reasons for entering nursing, PA, or any other health profession are yours alone.
 
chimichanga lets hope you always have that choice --> to choose your provider and that is is not forced upon you by some system designed to "SAVE MONEY"

anyway, I have once again recently reviewed NP training and it is not even close to preparing or providing the content necessary to work as a new grad or independently (which so many nurses clamor for) one year of "advanced" pharmacology and physiology is not nearly sufficient. A nurse that has not even practiced for a few years would seems to have a greater deficit since the clinical hours/exposure varies greatly. PA programs have structured clinicals that provide exposure to many types of medicine and the academics are much more rigorous.

I found numerous on line programs for NP degrees that required a weekend or two of "clinical" and you were ready to save the world. So the nurse with no experience and 2 weekends of "clinical" is prepared to work independently?

I will continue to see a PHYSICIAN for my health care and my family's.

This DNP degree is a joke - if you want to be a doctor of clinical medicine go to medical school. These zealots are why some physicians see mid-levels as problematic and encroaching where they are not qualified to provide that level of care.

ANYBODY can dispense medication from an algorithm and have favorable outcomes it is called disease management. What about the work-up for complex patients - how is the newly minted Doctor (DNP) going to handle that situation? According to the article - without problems since they will have the equivalent training of a physician...

I am all for NP's having the same pressures to see 4-6 patients per hour, the same malpractice rates, and complex non compliant patients and see where that "compassionate" we spend more time with the patient BS goes (probably out the window)

rant over!
 
For starts, anyone who is working in an acute care specialty has to have 1-2 years of critical care experience before entering a masters program.

I don't know where I put the article now, but I think some theories about why the findings were as they were... (1) the longer you are a nurse, the more opportunities you have to develop habits, sometimes bad habits, that are very hard to break when you go back to school. (2) the less time you have been an RN before entering NP school means you did your RN schooling quicker which means you are still in academic mode and are learning the most up to date styles of medicine.

I'm not sure if I believe that the longer you have been an RN the worse of an NP you will become, but I just wanted to state it for people that bash the direct entry NP students. I don't think we are any better or worse of NPs than someone who is a long standing RN. Additionally, like I said before, you need 2 years of work experience in a critical care setting as an RN to enter an acute care masters program such as midwifery, neonatal, and acute care.

Oh and students who do the direct entry MSN programs or accelerated second degree BSN programs take the same coursework (we already have a bachelors so the gen ed is done and the science part is a prepreq) and the clniical hours are the same. So, same degree, same classes, same hours. Just done at a quicker pace and year round. Then we enter a MSN program, if we choose, and that is the same time/length as any other MSN program.
 
Sorry to say, I dont care how many years of experience a RN or NP has, the amount or schooling and training from medical school is far superior than nursing. This is because I know for sure the training process in developing a physician in diagnosing patients is very different compared to NPs.
That being said, I never consult any NPs at any doctor visits. I make sure to ask for a MD or DO when i make appointments. I hope the public is aware of this for the sake of their own health. I mean not for general stuff like cough and cold, flu shots, allergies or infections.
 
From my experiences, the only time I have seen an NP working without a doctor was my gyno is an NP and I like her a lot more than my previous MD gyno.

If you ever go for anything serious, I have always seen an MD/DO. When I go see my orthopaedic surgeon, his PA or NP (he goes back and forth between them) will come in initially and ask me questions and do some basic tests and get me an x-ray. Then he/she will discuss with my surgeon and then he'll come in and talk to me and make final decisions and redo any tests he feels are necessary. I think it is a great system as it allows the patient to get more one-on-one time with a health care provider while allowing the doctor to see more patients. NPs and PAs aren't trying to overtake doctors and "play doctor" they are simply just a part of the health care team.

I know some PAs/NPs will work independently as a pediatrician or family doctor as well, but again that is normally simple and routine things. Anything serious is referred to a specialist, who is an MD/DO.
 
1) NPs earn considerably less money than MDs, making them preferable in the eyes of managed care.
- NPs where I work start at around 100k. That's what a first-year attending makes here. That's from an attending.

Well NNP salary is different from others but the average salary for NPs is $74,000. You may even know new grads that make $100k but it is far from average. On the other hand a new attending that makes $100k would be unusual. The most likely scenario - academic medical center, nurse = been there a long time worked up the nursing ladder vs. Brand new attending being horribly underpaid by the university. On the average a physician will make 1.5 times (pediatrics) what an NPP makes to more than 10x (CVS and cardiology). Most NPPs do make less than physicians.

2) It is not politically correct to talk about "aptitude" "skill" or "intelligence." NPs (with a few exceptions) do not have the aptitude to make it into med school, but anyone who brings up this fact will be frowned upon for being "elitist" and "mean." (Do not expect any NP "board exams" to be anywhere near the USMLE in terms of content or difficulty.)

- I would beg to differ. There are more than a few nurses who HAVE taken the MCAT and been accepted to medical school, but chose a different path. It IS "elitist and mean" to assume the intelligence of someone who you hardly know. I mean, how do you really presume to know someone's intelligence and academic abilities that well while passing through as a med student. Or a 1st/2nd year resident? It's too general a statement.

3) I could train a high school student to follow a protocol for DM or HTN care. As long as that is the metric by which we measure patient care, of course an NP will be just as good as an MD. An LPN would probably be just as good too.

- there are many published studies out there that have found that in both primary and specialty care, NPs patients experience the same level of health outcomes that patients who see only MDs have, in addition to having higher patient satisfaction scores, and lower office visits. These are not simply "Wal-Mart" clinic NPs, but primary care NPs, specialty care, etc working in medical groups consisting of MDs, PAs and NPs in all practice areas, including hospital groups.

Repeat after me. There are absolutely no studies that have ever shown that NP care is the equivalent to the care of a fully licensed physician. Please check before repeating propaganda. I know they told you this in school but it doesn't make it so.

- Don't all of us learn the "standard of care" for each condition? It's part of our advanced medical management curriculum!

- Why are you comparing an LPN with an 18 month education to a NP, who has a minimum of 6-8 years of class-time?


4) Nurses in are constantly exhorted to double-check MDs, be independent, never settle, always strive to become an NP. In other words, it is no longer acceptable in many circles to "just" be a nurse. I've met plenty of not-too-bright nurses with online degrees, who speak of their plans to become NPs as a matter of fact.

- So what's wrong with wanting more education?

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
I found numerous on line programs for NP degrees that required a weekend or two of "clinical" and you were ready to save the world. So the nurse with no experience and 2 weekends of "clinical" is prepared to work independently?


You might want to double check. Some online programs require one or two weekends on campus but you still must have a certain number of preceptor hours in addition. I don't remember the exact number of hours but you need a lot more than two weekends in order to get certified. I think it's over 500 hrs or more. I had to have a minimum of 500 hours, some of which I did under supervision of a psychologist and some on an inpatient unit in order to get my masters as a Psychiatric Clinical Nurse Specialist. A psych NP program I'm looking at requires 2-3 days at the beginning of the first semester plus 660 hours clinical placement.
 
You might want to double check. Some online programs require one or two weekends on campus but you still must have a certain number of preceptor hours in addition. I don't remember the exact number of hours but you need a lot more than two weekends in order to get certified. I think it's over 500 hrs or more. I had to have a minimum of 500 hours, some of which I did under supervision of a psychologist and some on an inpatient unit in order to get my masters as a Psychiatric Clinical Nurse Specialist. A psych NP program I'm looking at requires 2-3 days at the beginning of the first semester plus 660 hours clinical placement.

I second that. UW-Madison has an accelerated online BSN program. It requires a weekend or two on campus of clinicals, but you still need a ton more hours arranged in your hometown area.
There are definitely minimum clinical hours to become certified. If you came arcross an NP or PA who was not certified, I would run very far away unless they are eligible, but just graduated and haven't had a chance to become certified.
 
Primary Care Outcomes in Patients Treated by Nurse Practitioners or Physicians
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]A Randomized Trial.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/conten...c06ce9881f77243b795ce603&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

From the desk of the infamous Mary Mundinger. (Before you blow a gasket, there were also several Columbia public health physicians, as well as health policy officials involved in this study.)

Ok, so I was a little general in my statements, but the data is still there. I'm not saying that midlevel care is better than physician care, I'm saying that the care provided by midlevels can be equivalent to the care received by a physician. That's not to say that the physician isn't more prepared, or isn't the "gold standard" of medical care. It's just saying that you can receive the same level of care! I'm not even concerned with outpatient clinics. I'm concerned with hospital based medical teams consisting of physicians and midlevels seeing the same patients. As a future midlevel I would never put myself in a position both physically or mentally where I wouldn't have the backup of a skilled physician. If I wanted to be a physician, I would have gone to medical school. I chose nursing for many different reasons, some of which include a more predictable schedule, as well as more time for my family. (Plus not having to spend a third of my adult life in school, and the rest paying off loans)

It's all good...I hear what you're saying!
 
Primary Care Outcomes in Patients Treated by Nurse Practitioners or Physicians
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]A Randomized Trial.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/conten...c06ce9881f77243b795ce603&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

From the desk of the infamous Mary Mundinger. (Before you blow a gasket, there were also several Columbia public health physicians, as well as health policy officials involved in this study.)

Ok, so I was a little general in my statements, but the data is still there. I'm not saying that midlevel care is better than physician care, I'm saying that the care provided by midlevels can be equivalent to the care received by a physician. That's not to say that the physician isn't more prepared, or isn't the "gold standard" of medical care. It's just saying that you can receive the same level of care! I'm not even concerned with outpatient clinics. I'm concerned with hospital based medical teams consisting of physicians and midlevels seeing the same patients. As a future midlevel I would never put myself in a position both physically or mentally where I wouldn't have the backup of a skilled physician. If I wanted to be a physician, I would have gone to medical school. I chose nursing for many different reasons, some of which include a more predictable schedule, as well as more time for my family. (Plus not having to spend a third of my adult life in school, and the rest paying off loans)

It's all good...I hear what you're saying!


:thumbup:
 
okay - you need 500 hours that are not regulated in any way and can be provided by anyone. my typical day consist or pre-rounding, rounding, lecture and admissions in the afternoon and additional reading/lectures that are supervised by residents and attendings. I have to meet certain criteria to graduate as do NP students but it seems the clinical experience varies greatly.

The NP's I have talked to had to set up their clinical and then just wing it. There was no required learning experiences and sign offs for procedures.

The argument in the past has been that nurses are qualified to be independent because they go to nursing school and have all this experience. Now it seems that the argument has changed and that direct entry is also acceptable because all that much touted clinical experience create bad habits. Which one is it?

How about the whole degree process is sub-standard and cannot even hold a candle to most PA programs let alone medical school. And nurses demanding independent practice rights with substandard training only hurts the patient.

The ANA states nurses are qualified to work independently but the blogs I have read at allnurses.com seem to contradict this idea (in general) I am sure zenman is the exception since he is smarter and more enlightened then the rest of us:)

the one year of pharm and physiology is inadequate and the wholes master's degree program is barely a semester of medical school (28 credits 1st semester year one). SO how does this create an environment to provide care independent of physician supervision. If the ANA came out tomorrow and reversed their position and stated the training provides a platform for patient care under physician supervision then I would find the process much more acceptable and hire NP's. As it stands if I have an option or voice in the process I would opt fro PA's because I am familiar with the quality of their didactics and training and would be assured that their clinical experiences were well supervised by academic attending and not some doctor down the street looking to ease his work load for free.....

This DNP/NP movement to work independently is ridiculous and the studies will be copied and pasted showing how the care is equal or better to MD/DO because they have more time for each encounter.

How long is that going to last when you have the same financial pressures to 4-6 patients and hour? How will you work up complex cases - referrer everything that is not already diagnosed? I agree NP can manage disease processes that have been worked up and are stable but the idea of going to an NP with a complex problem is ridiculous because you are going to have to go see a doctor anyway. In an practice environment where both are immediately available this makes sense but the independent dogma from the ANA dismisses this idea as unnecessary - NP can work independently. Let patients find out for themselves and in the end they will choose a doctor (a real one not a DNP) because they will get the definitive care they expected from medicine.

gotta a flight to catch back to the States so I have to end my rant
 
One note... If an NP program just lets students "wing" their clinical hours it should not be accredited. The only online program I know of is an accelerated second degree BSN. The program has to be accepted by each individual state in order to do the clinical hours and it is very very regulated.

I think, for some people, it doesn't matter how many studies have fantastic research to show that NPs can be excellent providers and can work independently. They will always think that an MD/DO should be the only people providing care, especially independently.

Oh and at least in terms of my gynecologist, I much prefer my NP vs my previous MD. My NP is much more thorough, spends more time with me, explains things better, and is just as knowledgeable.
 
Primary Care Outcomes in Patients Treated by Nurse Practitioners or Physicians
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]A Randomized Trial.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/conten...c06ce9881f77243b795ce603&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

From the desk of the infamous Mary Mundinger. (Before you blow a gasket, there were also several Columbia public health physicians, as well as health policy officials involved in this study.)

Ok, so I was a little general in my statements, but the data is still there. I'm not saying that midlevel care is better than physician care, I'm saying that the care provided by midlevels can be equivalent to the care received by a physician. That's not to say that the physician isn't more prepared, or isn't the "gold standard" of medical care. It's just saying that you can receive the same level of care! I'm not even concerned with outpatient clinics. I'm concerned with hospital based medical teams consisting of physicians and midlevels seeing the same patients. As a future midlevel I would never put myself in a position both physically or mentally where I wouldn't have the backup of a skilled physician. If I wanted to be a physician, I would have gone to medical school. I chose nursing for many different reasons, some of which include a more predictable schedule, as well as more time for my family. (Plus not having to spend a third of my adult life in school, and the rest paying off loans)

It's all good...I hear what you're saying!

Here is the important part:
Results No significant differences were found in patients' health status (nurse practitioners vs physicians) at 6 months (P = .92). Physiologic test results for patients with diabetes (P = .82) or asthma (P = .77) were not different. For patients with hypertension, the diastolic value was statistically significantly lower for nurse practitioner patients (82 vs 85 mm Hg; P = .04). No significant differences were found in health services utilization after either 6 months or 1 year. There were no differences in satisfaction ratings following the initial appointment (P = .88 for overall satisfaction). Satisfaction ratings at 6 months differed for 1 of 4 dimensions measured (provider attributes), with physicians rated higher (4.2 vs 4.1 on a scale where 5 = excellent; P = .05).

I bolded the really important part. What this really means is that we didn't design the study properly to test for the attributes that we meant to test for. The we took a value that was meaningless and found that there was a statistical significance. This is a textbook example of how not to do a study. But wait there is more. If you look at the bottom of the paper they promise to come back and look in two years when you should be able to see equivalence or superiority. Hmm I'm looking through my back issues of JAMA. Hmm can't seem to find it. Oh its published in that highly read journal Medical Care Research and Review. Here is the abstract:
http://mcr.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/61/3/332

What they are really saying is that we did not have enough follow up to have a meaningful study.

So if you entire theory that nursing can provide equivalent care is based on that article I would give it a thumbs down. Please don't forget the really awful article in BMJ where they hopelessly mixed up NPs (and RNs) in the UK and the US who have completely different scopes of practice.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/324/7341/819

I will reiterate, there are no properly done studies that show NPs can provide equivalent care as fully licensed physicians. The best that can be done is several studies that show NPs provide better care than residents when both are under the supervision of physicians. If nursing wants true independence like Mundinger suggests then they have to step up to the plate and demonstrate that they can provide equivalent care.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
One note... If an NP program just lets students "wing" their clinical hours it should not be accredited. The only online program I know of is an accelerated second degree BSN. The program has to be accepted by each individual state in order to do the clinical hours and it is very very regulated.

I think, for some people, it doesn't matter how many studies have fantastic research to show that NPs can be excellent providers and can work independently. They will always think that an MD/DO should be the only people providing care, especially independently.

Oh and at least in terms of my gynecologist, I much prefer my NP vs my previous MD. My NP is much more thorough, spends more time with me, explains things better, and is just as knowledgeable.

look here
 
I'm not a fan of anything online beyond a bachelors degree type thing. I think that something like an NP where you have autunomy needs to be more regulated than that.

You would think if you are eligible to take the certification exam though that the program would have been carefully scrutinzed to make sure the graduates were worthy. Or, I guess I hope :)

I don't think I would ever do an online degree. There is just no possible way to make them as credible.
 
okay - you need 500 hours that are not regulated in any way and can be provided by anyone. my typical day consist or pre-rounding, rounding, lecture and admissions in the afternoon and additional reading/lectures that are supervised by residents and attendings. I have to meet certain criteria to graduate as do NP students but it seems the clinical experience varies greatly.

The NP's I have talked to had to set up their clinical and then just wing it. There was no required learning experiences and sign offs for procedures.

What NP schools are you talking about? I thought I was going to show you some links from UAB re preceptor forms but they've revamped their site and I don't see it anymore. There was a lot of criteria that had to be signed off on and evals by the preceptor. At the University of South Alabama site they had, until a few days ago, the course syllabus for a physical exam course. I guess the course is over now that Dec is half over. It was also pretty detailed.

Granted, I agree that NP programs need to be redesigned. However, in any program your clinical experience can not always be what you'd like. The FP doc I work with said her derm experience was watching her resident because he wouldn't let her do anything. (I can understand why, lol)

I am sure zenman is the exception since he is smarter and more enlightened then the rest of us:)

Just some of you; not you of course. Today I learned that Tylenol is not the best med for mouth ulcer pain according to "my doc." Well great; I had already tried Anbesol and it lasted an hour. Tylenol was my next choice because it was all I had...and the kid hasn't returned in four hours. Give me a break!

gotta a flight to catch back to the States so I have to end my rant

Well have a good flight. I'll be heading towards Turtle Island on the 23rd, but first 8 days in Kerala and a couple in Germany
 
I don't think I would ever do an online degree. There is just no possible way to make them as credible.

You know I'm going to ask for evidence of this, especially since I've heard med students talk about rarely attending classes and viewing their lectures online.
 
don't all the people who become midlevels KNOW they will need help/input from a physician?

NO, they do not, and that is the problem we physicians have with midlevels that want to, or do, practice medicine independently. As with most things, however, it is the physicians fault for being lazy and allowing these issues to exist in the first place. Look at the CRNA debacle; it exists purely from the laziness of attending anesthesiologists that wanted to make more money with less work. It all stems from physicians allowing the insurance companies to run medicine, which resulted from initial trust in, and subsequent betrayal from, the insurance companies in the 70's and 80's. Its all been downhill for medicine since then. If physicians would stand up and not take this crap from the insurance companies things could change, but we are too busy taking care of the sick to organize.
 
There is a difference between not going to class and doing your entire degree online. Medical students still have to physically go and take their exams. With the online degrees I have seen, the exams are also online. You could have your books and notes right in front of you looking up the answers and not actually have learned anything.

I would feel much safer leaving my care in the hands of someone I knew had to go and be tested on each subject they had to learn and therefore had to study and actually learn it and a school where clinical hours were structured.

These schools that strictly offer online degrees only in very short periods of times have always just seemed a little bit shady to me. I don't have any evidence to back that up as I have never really looked into a strictly online degree, but just that little "feeling" that I have :p.
 
Primary Care Outcomes in Patients Treated by Nurse Practitioners or Physicians
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]A Randomized Trial.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/conten...c06ce9881f77243b795ce603&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

From the desk of the infamous Mary Mundinger. (Before you blow a gasket, there were also several Columbia public health physicians, as well as health policy officials involved in this study.)

Ok, so I was a little general in my statements, but the data is still there. I'm not saying that midlevel care is better than physician care, I'm saying that the care provided by midlevels can be equivalent to the care received by a physician. That's not to say that the physician isn't more prepared, or isn't the "gold standard" of medical care. It's just saying that you can receive the same level of care! I'm not even concerned with outpatient clinics. I'm concerned with hospital based medical teams consisting of physicians and midlevels seeing the same patients. As a future midlevel I would never put myself in a position both physically or mentally where I wouldn't have the backup of a skilled physician. If I wanted to be a physician, I would have gone to medical school. I chose nursing for many different reasons, some of which include a more predictable schedule, as well as more time for my family. (Plus not having to spend a third of my adult life in school, and the rest paying off loans)

It's all good...I hear what you're saying!

Somebody who understands statistics a little more than I do help me out here. This study confuses me a little because they seem to be reporting on the null hypothesis. I always understood that one comes up with a hypothesis that there is a difference between groups and then the null hypothesis is no difference between the groups. Then you look at all your data and get your p-value etc, etc. This is what's confusing me about this study, they report that there is no difference between the two groups which would be the null hypothesis. The way I understood it would be to hypothesize that NP=/=MD, this would make the null hypothesis NP=MD. Then you look at your data etc, etc and get your p-values. A small p-value would be low evidence for the null hypothesis, so you could accept your hypothesis. But in this study the have large p-values which means there is not enough evidence against NP=MD, this however does not prove the NP=MD, it just means there is not enough evidence against it. The report seems to indicate that since there is not enough evidence against NP=MD it must be true, which seems backwards to me. So, if I am missing something please let me know, I have always had problems with stats.
 
You guys are so negative. I thought Mundinger's article was great! Very thought-provoking. A true must-read!

I hope that people were paying close attention when she said that DNP's were not just as good but better than physicians. I especially hope the people in pin-striped suits in stuffy law offices and boring insurance companies saw that little blurb.

I wish all schools were offering the DNP now. I can't wait til the day that fresh-faced DNP's begin to introduce themselves as "doctor" to patients and in front of old-school attendings. That'll be a hoot.
 
There is a difference between not going to class and doing your entire degree online. Medical students still have to physically go and take their exams. With the online degrees I have seen, the exams are also online. You could have your books and notes right in front of you looking up the answers and not actually have learned anything.

I'm not beating you about the head and shoulders...just want to get your young brain thinking differently. I know a professor who handed out exams a few days before the actual exam. The "real" exam was the same. His rationale was that if you knew everything on those exams, 100% of the class would have met class objectives. Designing a test is much more complicated than you would think and most teachers don't know how to do it. Multiple choice, for example, just tests the ability to recall something that you slightly remember from reading while studying with your ipod stuck in your ear.

I have actually taken two classes with exams such as you described. However, they were timed and you didn't stand much of a chance if you had to flip through a book to find every answer.
 
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