Hospital wants us to admit dead patients

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I’m geographically limited but have yet to see an EMS rig that uses ETCO2 - is this standard in the rest of the country outside the super south?

Have had a couple of cases now where EMS brings in a patient they “tubed”, ED doc doesn’t check the tube but can’t figure out why they’re desatting despite max vent support, and it’s because the ETT was never confirmed by anyone.

Obviously the vast majority of us do a great job ensuring the tube is either placed properly on the ED or confirmed by us on arrival but the lack of “standard” confirming ETT placement with capno is def still not a thing in many parts of the country.

Hell we only have 9 ETCO2 monitors for our main ED which sees 90,000+ per year.

I've had it at every ED I've worked at since graduating a few years ago, even critical access. They might have to grab it out of the closet around the corner, but we have it. The RTs, at EVERY shop I've worked at, have had some weird aversion to using it and favor the colormetric device. It's always the nurses or myself asking for the ETCO2 monitor module. It's like the RTs learn in RT school that is "not needed" or they don't see the utility, I don't get it.

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This would never happen at my hospital. We need a nurse to patient ratio of at least 2:1 for a patient that critical.
Our system is so dysfunctional it would be something like nurse staffing that would bring this issue to light for sure.
 
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The real money is in the patients who get CPR, ROSC and keep dying. I don't know if it pays out, but I will do...
CPR #1 --> ROSC and CC time --> dead again, CPR note #2 --> ROSC --> rinse and repeat with addl CPR notes for each separate instance.

My assumption is that these get paid, but I'm not sure.
 
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Didn’t something sketchy a similar sense this make the national news? calling a bunch of minor stuff traumas to get trauma activation fee (or something, this is waay outside my wheelhouse)


Also, couldn’t they wind up getting dinged on the hospital side for some poor outcome metric?


I’d be very interested in they’re willing to put this in writing.

Oh don't worry they also recently expanded our trauma activation rules.

Examples of cases they want activated:

Reported fall while on anticoagulation from any height
Reported fall that occurs in pregnancy from any height
Reported fall in those <5 and >65 age from any height
 
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I’m surprised the CCM department is on board with this. Because logistically you’re going to be admitting them to a CCM doc who has never seen the patient, probably got minimal to no signout (because of there being a damn code in progress), never examined or wrote a proper note or dictated their care, but now is legally liable for the outcome along with the ED doc.

Unless of course they’re calling the ICU down for every code, which seems like an immense waste of time and resources that could be used to you know, generate billable income for the hospital.

The residents do all of the work so the faculty attendings can basically just sit back and collect the fees on all these admits.
 
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Oh don't worry they also recently expanded our trauma activation rules.

Examples of cases they want activated:

Reported fall while on anticoagulation from any height
Reported fall that occurs in pregnancy from any height
Reported fall in those <5 and >65 age from any height
I love the activations for fall on anticoagulation from any height. They'll literally activate it for a fall from a wheelchair yesterday while on Coumadin lollll. Then I get notifications to bill critical care even when imaging is negative and patient is DC.

nah bro. I'm gonna need some profit sharing if you expect me to be complicit in your CMS fraud.
 
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There's a code for laryngoscopy. I'm not familiar with its reimbursement though.
IIRC it is actually very close to intubation. I have used it a few times when I've checked EMS tube w/ glidescope [years ago I had an attending recommend this as standard practice, both from a quality AND RVU perspective... but this was way before ETCO2 and rapid portable chest xray with display on the machine...]

31525 is the cpt for diagnostic (direct) laryngoscopy, 2.63 RVU
31500 is the cpt for intubation via laryngoscopy, 3 RVU


31511 is FB removal via direct laryngoscopy, when you pull that steak out of that windpip, RVU 2.16
31530 is operative direct laryngoscopy w/ FB removal, bumps up to 3.38 rvu. This is theoretically under general anesthesia...
31575 is diagnostic laryngoscopy w/ a fiberoptic flex scope, bonus RVU 0.94
 
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I’m geographically limited but have yet to see an EMS rig that uses ETCO2 - is this standard in the rest of the country outside the super south?

Have had a couple of cases now where EMS brings in a patient they “tubed”, ED doc doesn’t check the tube but can’t figure out why they’re desatting despite max vent support, and it’s because the ETT was never confirmed by anyone.

Obviously the vast majority of us do a great job ensuring the tube is either placed properly on the ED or confirmed by us on arrival but the lack of “standard” confirming ETT placement with capno is def still not a thing in many parts of the country.

Hell we only have 9 ETCO2 monitors for our main ED which sees 90,000+ per year.

Where I medic’d in the Deep South (AR, LA, MS) it was standard of care for all intubations. I used it frequently on respiratory patients and anyone getting potentially sedating meds. I mandate it for my crews in OH. Coming from EMS, I always felt we never used it enough in residency. When I’m receiving an intubated patient I try to check the tube before and after they’re moved from the cot to the bed and let the crew know for their documentation
 
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Performing laryngoscopy on every patient intubated in the field exposes most of these patients to unnecessary risks. First, you will likely need to re-paralyze a lot of patients unnecessarily, and it’s actually not a particularly accurate way to confirm ETT placement since many will have lots of debris in the glottic region that may confound your view. As expert airway practitioners, we should be advocating for continuous wave form capnography as a standard of care in the overwhelming majority of emergency departments in the country. It is very effective at confirming ETT placement and monitoring your patient for badness during their peri-intubation course.

If you suspect a problem with your tube, a far safer and more effective means than laryngoscopy to confirm tube placement is to simply pass a bronchoscope down the tube to visualize the carina. This is both diagnostic and therapeutic if the tube or bronchus is obstructed with mucus, misplaced, etc. Bronchoscopy is a billable procedure, remarkably fast to do, and does not require a patient be paralyzed for a quick look.

For what it’s worth, I’m called to the bedside weekly to evaluate problems with ET tubes - mostly cuff leaks, suspected mucus plugging, etc. My first step is to always visually inspect the tube’s position, patency, and compliance on the vent. Then, hook up capnography if not already done and the tube to a BVM. If anything seems odd while bagging, make sure your airway cart and drugs are is in the room, and then take a look with a bronchoscope. Never try to blindly advance or inflate cuffs on tubes that are misbehaving.
 
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Performing laryngoscopy on every patient intubated in the field exposes most of these patients to unnecessary risks. First, you will likely need to re-paralyze a lot of patients unnecessarily, and it’s actually not a particularly accurate way to confirm ETT placement since many will have lots of debris in the glottic region that may confound your view. As expert airway practitioners, we should be advocating for continuous wave form capnography as a standard of care in the overwhelming majority of emergency departments in the country. It is very effective at confirming ETT placement and monitoring your patient for badness during their peri-intubation course.

If you suspect a problem with your tube, a far safer and more effective means than laryngoscopy to confirm tube placement is to simply pass a bronchoscope down the tube to visualize the carina. This is both diagnostic and therapeutic if the tube or bronchus is obstructed with mucus, misplaced, etc. Bronchoscopy is a billable procedure, remarkably fast to do, and does not require a patient be paralyzed for a quick look.

For what it’s worth, I’m called to the bedside weekly to evaluate problems with ET tubes - mostly cuff leaks, suspected mucus plugging, etc. My first step is to always visually inspect the tube’s position, patency, and compliance on the vent. Then, hook up capnography if not already done and the tube to a BVM. If anything seems odd while bagging, make sure your airway cart and drugs are is in the room, and then take a look with a bronchoscope. Never try to blindly advance or inflate cuffs on tubes that are misbehaving.

Look at mister-fancypants here. He works somewhere with a bronk-o-scope.
(I liked your post for it's educational nature and value; but I don't have toys like that at White Trash General)
 
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Look at mister-fancypants here. He works somewhere with a bronk-o-scope.
(I liked your post for it's educational nature and value; but I don't have toys like that at White Trash General)
Disposable bronchoscopes are available attachments for the popular video airway systems such as GlideScope and Storz. I believe they are about the same price as a disposable VL scope for those systems. They are perfect for those 2-3% of patients who are likely to do better with an AFOI rather than an RSI - think bad RV, bad aortic stenosis, etc. EM residents coming out of our program are equally comfortable performing ketamine facilitated AFOI (typically with topicalization) and RSI.
 
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Disposable bronchoscopes are available attachments for the popular video airway systems such as GlideScope and Storz. I believe they are about the same price as a disposable VL scope for those systems. They are perfect for those 2-3% of patients who are likely to do better with an AFOI rather than an RSI - think bad RV, bad aortic stenosis, etc. EM residents coming out of our program are equally comfortable performing ketamine facilitated AFOI (typically with topicalization) and RSI.

1.) Nice.
2.) The chiding was in good spirit. We just can't have nice things at my shop.
3.) "Bad RV" = ? It took me a minute to work out AFOI.
 
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1.) Nice.
2.) The chiding was in good spirit. We just can't have nice things at my shop.
3.) "Bad RV" = ? It took me a minute to work out AFOI.
No worries. Working for the federal government removed my remaining sense of humor.

Bad RV refers to people with right ventricular dysfunction. A number of people out there have unrecognized RV failure usually from a crappy LV, but sometimes due to long standing pulmonary HTN from non-cardiac issues. The problem with cardiogenic shock from an RV is that it can be hard to find without a POCUS TTE. They sometimes come in looking septic with N/V and abdominal pain from congestion - plenty of people have died on an OR table for a lap chole they didn’t need because it was RV failure causing the sx and edematous gallbladder and sludge.

Anyway, the RV is like the French - it’s a champaign sipping surrender monkey when someone suddenly drops its preload or increases its afterload. Thus, RSI on a sick RV is a quick way to turn a laryngoscope blade into a murder weapon because the preload suddenly drops and afterload suddenly increases with anesthetics and positive pressure ventilation. Even etomidate and anesthetic doses of ketamine (>1mg/kg) can piss off an RV. Admittedly, I probably killed a couple people back in the day before TTE was a thing in the ED and everyone was airway, airway, airway, rah, rah, rah. They were the suspected sepsis that didn’t get better with fluid and crumped soon after being intubated.

Thus, the safest way to intubate a bad RV is 1) don’t do it unless your hand is forced, and 2) use AFOI and make sure that the RV is well supported on some inotropic dosed epi (3-5 mcg/min) and lots of BP margin before you start (ie have an a-line).

The nice thing about a ketamine AFOI is that it can be safely done without paralytics and the patient breaths spontaneously on the minimalist amount of pressure support and airway pressure. Do is right and the BP often doesn’t budge.

A similar set of rules apply for the patient with bad aortic stenosis. A great way to get your chest and arm day at the hospital is to etomidate, roc, prop a severe AS into a cardiac arrest when the preload and aortic pressure plummets from the anesthetics and positive pressure. Their the coronaries don’t perfuse, the hypotension gets worse, yada, yada, yada…
 
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How do the RVU of checking with bronchoscope compare?
 
According to one website:

Diagnostic laryngoscopy 0.94
Brochoscopy with airway clearance but without BAL or Bx is 2.53
 
I love the activations for fall on anticoagulation from any height. They'll literally activate it for a fall from a wheelchair yesterday while on Coumadin lollll. Then I get notifications to bill critical care even when imaging is negative and patient is DC.

nah bro. I'm gonna need some profit sharing if you expect me to be complicit in your CMS fraud.

Just to play devils advocate, CMS itself has been under cutting and dropping reimbursement for physicians and hospitals.

50 percent of hospitals are currently losing money because of Medicare and Medicaid low reimbursement. Since covid, labor and supplies cost ballooned, CMS reimbursements barely budged. In fact, the gross margin for a Medicare/Medicaid patient is negative 9 percent across all hospitals. So every Medicare/medicaid patient is a loss for the hospital.

Hospitals are honestly trying to be creative in getting their fair reimbursement, stay out of the red, and remain solvent.
 
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According to one website:

Diagnostic laryngoscopy 0.94
Brochoscopy with airway clearance but without BAL or Bx is 2.53
For 2023, 31505 (diagnostic laryngoscopy) is 1.47 but there's also a 31575 (also diagnostic laryngoscopy) which is 2.03 but it appears that's for a flexible laryngoscopy.
 
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Just to play devils advocate, CMS itself has been under cutting and dropping reimbursement for physicians and hospitals.

50 percent of hospitals are currently losing money because of Medicare and Medicaid low reimbursement. Since covid, labor and supplies cost ballooned, CMS reimbursements barely budged. In fact, the gross margin for a Medicare/Medicaid patient is negative 9 percent across all hospitals. So every Medicare/medicaid patient is a loss for the hospital.

Hospitals are honestly trying to be creative in getting their fair reimbursement, stay out of the red, and remain solvent.

Somethings not right here. I agree for Medicaid, but if Medicare was a loss for every patient, hospital would just stop accepting it all together.
 
Somethings not right here. I agree for Medicaid, but if Medicare was a loss for every patient, hospital would just stop accepting it all together.

2022 was very rough with margins of negative 19 percent. 2024 the median hospital is breaking even so far…but that’s the ‘median’ hospital.

But yeah…medicare as well, not just Medicaid. The reality is…. You and i can’t turn away patients from the ER. If a hospital doesn’t accept medicare, they’ll still end up admitted because we are physicians, especially in the ER, will still do the right thing. Then if a hospital doesnt accept medicare, the patient will get a cash bill, which may or may not get paid.

Hospital financials have been very very rocky.

So yeah…. The government basically says they will under pay the hospital. They dictate the price. Their reimbursement did not keep up with inflation, especially over the last 2-3 years. And then the government says that if we don’t care for that patient (aka refuse care because it’s a loss), then it’s an emtala violation.
 
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Somethings not right here. I agree for Medicaid, but if Medicare was a loss for every patient, hospital would just stop accepting it all together.


I guess an average of negative 18 percent margins in 2022.

There’s a reason rural hospitals and even some bigger hospitals are closing shop.
 
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Look at mister-fancypants here. He works somewhere with a bronk-o-scope.
(I liked your post for it's educational nature and value; but I don't have toys like that at White Trash General)
They have disposable scopes with reusable screens - they work pretty well and they aren't that expensive. I heard $2000 for the display and several disposable scopes. I've had the Ambu aScope 4 at the past few places I've worked.

Worth asking your director to throw down some department $$ on, and it's billable.

 
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Look at mister-fancypants here. He works somewhere with a bronk-o-scope.
(I liked your post for it's educational nature and value; but I don't have toys like that at White Trash General)
Having access to a bronch for our cmac tower has been game changing. It’s really such an easy procedure that really fills our our airway toolbag with so much more.

You can tell in 2 seconds if you’re in a pts airway and where you are in the airway. If you’re mainstemmed you can retract the ETT under video guidance into the exact right spot. You can load it with an ETT and drive it right up to the cords with a patient still breathing spontaneously right up to the moment of intubation. You can wash out a gummed up lobe or two on a sick nursing home patient and drastically improve their ventilation status rather than spending a bunch of time trying to optimize their vent and suctioning goobers with the little ballard.

Any bad airway disaster rather than messing around with a bunch of adjuncts just drop an LMA, bag them up, and drive the bronch through the LMA and past the cords into the airway. Cut the bronch and use it to thread the ETT into place.

I have surgery cofellows who can barely intubate who can secure an airway pretty easily with the bronch/LMA method.

It pays about the same as a CVC but takes a quarter of the time to set up and complete, and doesn’t even require a sterile field.
 
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So our notortiously understaffed and underresourced inner city ED just hired a new chairman who previously worked at the well resoured Ivy league ED across town. Since he’s stared over the last few months his main focus has been to increase revenues by any means possible by further increasing billing. This has led to some ridiculous highly questionable department policies centered around critical care.

Now his newest policy is to have us admit cardiac arrest patients even if they’ve been down for 30+ minutes and we declare them dead on arrival. Basically even if we do nothing and they never have a pulse he wants us to have them offically admitted to CCM in the hosptial. I’m not an expert on CMS regulations but it does seem highly illegal even ignoring all of the ethical implications of these kinds of department policies.
Pretty unclear on the goals.
Maybe would make a little extra money but big implications here.

Quality scores such as leapfrog etc would drop

CMS star rating would drop (mortality of inpatients is a measure, ED mortalities are excluded)

Reimbursement is tied to CMS star rating, so likely to lose much more money in the long run.
Seems like your new director is not really knowledgeable
 
Having access to a bronch for our cmac tower has been game changing. It’s really such an easy procedure that really fills our our airway toolbag with so much more.

You can tell in 2 seconds if you’re in a pts airway and where you are in the airway. If you’re mainstemmed you can retract the ETT under video guidance into the exact right spot. You can load it with an ETT and drive it right up to the cords with a patient still breathing spontaneously right up to the moment of intubation. You can wash out a gummed up lobe or two on a sick nursing home patient and drastically improve their ventilation status rather than spending a bunch of time trying to optimize their vent and suctioning goobers with the little ballard.

Any bad airway disaster rather than messing around with a bunch of adjuncts just drop an LMA, bag them up, and drive the bronch through the LMA and past the cords into the airway. Cut the bronch and use it to thread the ETT into place.

I have surgery cofellows who can barely intubate who can secure an airway pretty easily with the bronch/LMA method.

It pays about the same as a CVC but takes a quarter of the time to set up and complete, and doesn’t even require a sterile field.
Oh that little cut-the-disposable-bronc and use it as a pre-positioned bougie to introduce the tube hadn't occurred to me. A little sad you can't video to ensure you are in place, but I see the type of LMA'd patient it may be a good rescue for. Interesting.
 
Oh that little cut-the-disposable-bronc and use it as a pre-positioned bougie to introduce the tube hadn't occurred to me. A little sad you can't video to ensure you are in place, but I see the type of LMA'd patient it may be a good rescue for. Interesting.
Works really well for displaced trachs too. I’ve put the bronch into a desatting trach pt only to find the tip is in a false passage, or has eroded through into the esophagus and they’re ventilating the stomach. Or there’s a blob of dried up Florida nursing home secretions occluding the end.

every ED should have a bronchoscope!
 
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I mean – the more you semi-scam revenue for the same casemix by adding in extra complexity and amplified documentation, the more CMS is going to squeeze the reimbursement such that each patient encounter ends up costing them a similar amount.

And then every patient is going to require that level of intensity just to get the old baseline level of reimbursement.

Ad nauseam to until we burnout or take pay cuts or both.
 
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Works really well for displaced trachs too. I’ve put the bronch into a desatting trach pt only to find the tip is in a false passage, or has eroded through into the esophagus and they’re ventilating the stomach. Or there’s a blob of dried up Florida nursing home secretions occluding the end.

every ED should have a bronchoscope!

Seriously. I can't stand these cases anymore. Sure, you can fix the problem - but to what end?
 
I mean – the more you semi-scam revenue for the same casemix by adding in extra complexity and amplified documentation, the more CMS is going to squeeze the reimbursement such that each patient encounter ends up costing them a similar amount.

And then every patient is going to require that level of intensity just to get the old baseline level of reimbursement.

Ad nauseam to until we burnout or take pay cuts or both.

Or every hospital and physician group could balance bill them all.

Why should the government get to fix our prices?

Is the government going to sue / exclude from CMS every hospital and physician group in response?
 
Seriously. I can't stand these cases anymore. Sure, you can fix the problem - but to what end?
I was recently saying that all EPs should get one CMO card to play per month. One patient, you get to label as CMO and admit on a morphine drip. I'm fine if it has to go to an ethics committee or something so that you aren't just murdering annoying patients (though that thought sometimes has a certain appeal) but being an expert in delivering futile care is taxing. Both psychologically and macroeconomically.
 
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Seriously. I can't stand these cases anymore. Sure, you can fix the problem - but to what end?
I fix it So they can go back to their sketchy nursing facility where the Medicare industrial complex can continue to go brrrrrrr and generate profit farming meat potatoes
 
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