hospitals too?

[goobernaculum]

So France will move to ban the wearing of any "ostentatious" religious garb (e.g.- muslim head scarves, jewish skull caps) in all public places - INCLUDING HOSPITALS - by next fall.

Is anyone else astonished at this? I'd imagine that both liberals AND conservatives would be outraged. About 70% of French citizens don't think it's a bad idea. Is this ultra-liberalism or merely racism? I'd say the latter considering France still has synagogue bombings and frequent racial/ethnic assaults. Geez...what a backwards country. They truly are "old-europe".


Discussion: I'm interested in what some of you have to say. Considering that religion is an important healing process for many Americans (there are a lot of studies i can dig up to confirm this), do you guys think American should adopt a similar policy?

here's the link:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/12/17/france.headscarves/index.html

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[g3pro]

I'm not shocked. the french people have always been xenophobic. when they hate the US, you think it's ok. when they prevent Muslims from their traditional wear, you are outraged?

 

[freesolo]

Im muslim, and one of my freinds refused to take off her hijab(scarve) when she wanted to get a driver's license here in the USA. I believe the manager up there said it was related to a bandana and gangs. Of course nuns can wear what they wear i forget whats it called . I'm not the most religious person, but it shouldn't be compared to a bandana. About 2 months ago an 11 year old was kicked out of school for wearing it. And they wouldnt let her pray. I've seen a jewish boy wearing there thing i forget whats that called too. I dont care about the extra security crap that i have to go to and register and all that good stuff, cuz im an arab =). But at least let them wear the scarve. I ramble way too much ...

 

[DMBUGA34]

I can understand muslims not being allowed to wear their hijab when getting a license since the picture is needed to ID people. You shouldn't be allowed to cover any part of your face/head for the pic (nuns shouldn't be allowed either). But not letting someone wear it at school? Come on, it's not like your forcing religion on your classmates. Same with praying, if someone wants to do it on their own time, then let 'em. One should definitely be allowed to wear religious clothing in a hospitals since it can be a very spiritual experience. Some people need religion to get through the rough times. Anyways, I guess I'm rambling too...

 

[Spidey]

Originally posted by goobernaculum
So France will move to ban the wearing of any "ostentatious" religious garb (e.g.- muslim head scarves, jewish skull caps) in all public places - INCLUDING HOSPITALS - by next fall.

I think it's pretty disgusting, makes me glad I don't live in France. It also makes me wonder, if I were born in a place like France, would I hold the same backwards beliefs as they seem to. Makes me wonder how much of who we are is programmed into us, and how much is genetic. I like to think it has as much to do with genetics as with programming, but when you look at a number like 70% approving this bs you have to wonder.

 

[Spidey]

Originally posted by goobernaculum
About 70% of French citizens don't think it's a bad idea.

btw, where did you get this number, do you have a link? I didn't see it in the article

 

[goobernaculum]

the french people have always been xenophobic. when they hate the US, you think it's ok. when they prevent Muslims from their traditional wear, you are outraged?

so, g3pro...where in my post did you see me say this? right...we need to work on the reading comp. skills. It'll help on the MCAT.
in fact, i never said that it was okay to "hate the US". there are definitely problems in France if this "anti-everyone else" sentiment is as widespread as it seems.

Spidey...in the article I think it said that a poll recorded 69% of French folk in favor of the ban.

 

[carrigallen]

Originally posted by Spidey
btw, where did you get this number, do you have a link? I didn't see it in the article

69% i read that article on cnn about 2 hrs ago, i still remember (i think).

why france does this, plix? makes no sense at all

 

[juddson]

The woman in florida who could not get the driver's license with your hijab in place was refused because it covered her entire face. It permitted only a slit for the eyes. The ruling was perfectly legitimate. Our drivers licenses have pictures on them for purposes of identification. That picture becomes obsolete if ones face is covered in a hijab. She should not have been able to wear the covering in her drivers license any more than I should be permitted to put a bag over my head for the picture.

To the extent that a scarf covers only the hair and not the face, it is still impermissible JUST as it is impermissible for one to have his picture taken with a baseball cap in place (I was told that mine would have to be removed). Again, it is a matter of identification and nothing else.

A yarmulka (jewish scull cap) is permissible not because the wearer is Jewish (come on now, that's your point, isn't it) but because it does not cover the entirety of the hair. In fact, often from the front the cap is not visible at all.

Judd

 

[hale-bopp]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/12/17/france.headscarves/index.html


there's the link, if I figured out how to set it up properly.

In my opinion, this policy is one of racism and intolerance. I can't figure out how not permitting people to dress in a way that reflects their relationship with God makes society better or affects the relationship between church and state. (For the record, I am a semi-Unitarian, this is not about me.) If the problem is intolerance of people who dress differently (like Muslims who wear headscarves), then the solution is not to force them to dress differently to go out in public, but to address the issues in society at the root of the racism. (I do understand about the driver's license picture, they need to see her face for identification, just as if she were stopped for a moving violation, the officer could ask her to remove it. Driving is a privilege, not a right, and you have to abide by the terms set forth by the government.)

I was even more appalled by this:

And he [Chirac] added: "Nothing can justify that a patient refuses, on principle, to be cared for by a doctor of the opposite sex. The law must consecrate this rule for all the ill who go to a public hospital."

I'm amazed by that. Apparently, in France, healthcare is only a right as long as you share the beliefs of the majority, otherwise, it's a privilege. After reading "The Spirit Catches you and YOu Fall Down" I feel very strongly that multicultralism is really important in healthcare.

I always thought that the term "Freedom Fries" was stupid, but now maybe it's time for me to go express my belief in freedom of speech and freedom of religion by doing some "Freedom" Kissing.

 

[Spitting Camel]

First of all, aren't we glad we changed the name to freedom fries?

For the record, I am an Arab, but I am not a muslim:

On a more serious note, I agree with the removal of the hijab for the license picture. I mean, come on! Anyone heard of a thing called national security? That's precisely the reason the illegal alien license was repealed my the terminator in Cali. I also agree that the Yamulka is ok for the reason mentioned by jud. Abraham, you have to register if you are not a citizen... it's nothing personal, I'm sure. Again, national security.

Now, about the hospital and "all public places" thing, that is just ridiculous!! Isn't there some united nations article that would prevent such a gross injustice? I think we need to bring it to their attention.

I saw a documentary about the changing face of france and it said that 1 in 4 or 5 people in france were born in another country and 1 of 10 are muslim. I think this law is a ploy to "clear out" those that do not fit the french ideals. The documentary even said that France has expressed concerns about losing it's identity. What identity is that? Hairy chested women, rude people, bland food, and an arrogant attitude? I hope that people will see through this!

 

[goobernaculum]

one of the biggest ethical problems of ethics and public policy is what to do when ethics (as broadly as it can be used) rubs up against national security. i think most people would agree that religious garb should be disrobed for identification purporses such as driver's licenses. it's an interesting topic, but at least most people here agree with it.

i'm not a big fan of the slippery slope argument, but it seems to work in this case. first there was separation of state and church (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) and now you can't even wear clothing that has deep personal and intimate meaning in your life in public places? What next? An anti-religion movement?
I hope this never happens in America. Anyone know what the rest of Europe is like?

 

[Treg]

In terms of wearing hijab for IDs-

How easy is it to completely change your hairstyle, color, length etc? Hair is probably one of the least consistent ID factors these days. Also, I have several close friends who wear hijab, and I know that the only time they don't wear it would be in the privacy of their own home. Thus, a photo without the hijab would probably be less useful than a photo with a hijab. As for the ladies who choose to use a nikkab (face cover), obviously it should be removed for ID photos. This level of modesty is a personal preference that is NOT required.

I agree with many other posters on this thread in that France has crossed the line.

Just my 0.02

 

[Petitpois]

Originally posted by hale-bopp


In my opinion, this policy is one of racism and intolerance. I can't figure out how not permitting people to dress in a way that reflects their relationship with God makes society better or affects the relationship between church and state. (For the record, I am a semi-Unitarian, this is not about me.) If the problem is intolerance of people who dress differently (like Muslims who wear headscarves), then the solution is not to force them to dress differently to go out in public, but to address the issues in society at the root of the racism.

I don't think this is something to target minority religious groups in a racist/intolerant manner. In French public schools, children aren't even allowed to wear a cross so that it shows... and this is a predominantly Catholic country! They are just REALLY gung-ho about separation of church and state. Since schools and hospitals in France are all pretty much paid for by the gov't, maybe they feel like people shouldn't wear religious clothing in these places (although essentially everyone pays into these governmental funds... that's the ironic part I guess).

 

[hamhamfan]

Originally posted by Petitpois
I don't think this is something to target minority religious groups in a racist/intolerant manner. In French public schools, children aren't even allowed to wear a cross so that it shows... and this is a predominantly Catholic country! They are just REALLY gung-ho about separation of church and state. Since schools and hospitals in France are all pretty much paid for by the gov't, maybe they feel like people shouldn't wear religious clothing in these places (although essentially everyone pays into these governmental funds... that's the ironic part I guess).

Yeah. Although I do not agree with the law, I don't think that it is exactly "xenophobic" or "racist" because it treats a large cross the same as a scarf or skull cap.

 

[Hallm_7]

Does France not have a part of their constitution which guarentees freedom of religion? It seems like France has swung so far to the side of giving people freedom FROM religion that they have taken away the right to have freedom FOR religion.

Even in our public schools students can pray if they want, they just can't be forced to pray by a teacher or administrator.

I think this probably boils down to France wanting to protect it's "image" even though no one appreciates their image anymore. They have a whole government agency that protects the influence of English terms on the French language. They've already banned the use of compact disk and e-mail among others.......they're *****s.

 

[GirlFromPhilly]

First....a nun wears a habit
Second.....wearing head covering in the US for a license place has regional restrictions, I wore a scarf to cover my hair, or lack there of, for my picture, and was informed by the person taking my picture to just tell him it was for religious reasons. Covering of hair for a picture has no implications in identity. I know for a fact that people could recognize me based on my somatotype and facial features whether I had no hair, a scarf, eventually a wig and finally my own hair grown back in. The same goes for any human being.
Third.....I am really bothered by the fact that when a survey reports that 69% of the population agree with the law that many are quick to accept the information as true. Hasn't the constant misrepresentation of polls in this country proven anything to anyone. The probable truth is that 69% of about 1000 citizens questioned, we won't even talk about possible socio-economic bias here, agreed with the rule.
Fourth.....Can someone please explain to me why, when a country decides that they do not agree with our foreign policy they all of a sudden are anti-American, when if we remember our history correct we will forever remain grateful to that country for the freedoms we have now because of the sacrifice they made in the past?? Or is that now no longer relevant?

Just a few thoughts and questions.

 

[Spitting Camel]

Originally posted by GirlFromPhilly
First....a nun wears a habit
Second.....wearing head covering in the US for a license place has regional restrictions, I wore a scarf to cover my hair, or lack there of, for my picture, and was informed by the person taking my picture to just tell him it was for religious reasons. Covering of hair for a picture has no implications in identity. I know for a fact that people could recognize me based on my somatotype and facial features whether I had no hair, a scarf, eventually a wig and finally my own hair grown back in. The same goes for any human being.
Third.....I am really bothered by the fact that when a survey reports that 69% of the population agree with the law that many are quick to accept the information as true. Hasn't the constant misrepresentation of polls in this country proven anything to anyone. The probable truth is that 69% of about 1000 citizens questioned, we won't even talk about possible socio-economic bias here, agreed with the rule.
Fourth.....Can someone please explain to me why, when a country decides that they do not agree with our foreign policy they all of a sudden are anti-American, when if we remember our history correct we will forever remain grateful to that country for the freedoms we have now because of the sacrifice they made in the past?? Or is that now no longer relevant?

Just a few thoughts and questions.

First: I new that already
Second: Are you trying to tell us you had cancer and lied about your religion so you could wear a scarf to cover your hair? If so, just say it. I am glad you are healthy enough to type on this forum today.
Third: You couldn't be more right! EXCEPT, you don't know how many people were polled and the margin of error.
Fourth: Where did that come from?!? No one called france anti-american. France has become increasingly hostile to America in the recent past, as have MANY countries who do not agree with our policy. They are not anti-American, they are just not Allies. AND on top of that, they want to share in economic opportunties that resulted from the war after refusing to assist. What gives them the right. Just another example to the arrogance of France.

 

[goobernaculum]

They are just REALLY gung-ho about separation of church and state.

The point of this thread is that the French are TOO gung ho about separation of church and state. What does this mean? It means that the state is too aggressively governing what can and can't be done in public when it comes to personal and intimate things (i.e.- religion and the things that symbolize religion). In fact, it's actually very scary. It reminds me of Big Brother.

as for this quote:

am really bothered by the fact that when a survey reports that 69% of the population agree with the law that many are quick to accept the information as true.

It's actually an accepted fact that France has a lot of anti-semitism problems (e.g.- bombing of synagogues) and racism issues (e.g.- on a more personal note, many of my minority friends that visited France were harrassed in some way or form about their race/looks). Not to say that America is squeaky clean, but a statistic like the one we're talking about is definitely not incredulous.

 

[GirlFromPhilly]

Originally posted by AlreadyInDebt
First: I new that already
Second: Are you trying to tell us you had cancer and lied about your religion so you could wear a scarf to cover your hair? If so, just say it. I am glad you are healthy enough to type on this forum today.
Third: You couldn't be more right! EXCEPT, you don't know how many people were polled and the margin of error.
Fourth: Where did that come from?!? No one called france anti-american. France has become increasingly hostile to America in the recent past, as have MANY countries who do not agree with our policy. They are not anti-American, they are just not Allies. AND on top of that, they want to share in economic opportunties that resulted from the war after refusing to assist. What gives them the right. Just another example to the arrogance of France.

AlreadyInDebt:
Please realize that every response here is not for your benefit. I answered Abrahams question about what a nun wears and did not respond to what a Jewish person wears because Juddson has already provided a response (For which I am grateful because I never knew how to correctly spell it....thank you!)

Second of all, I do hope that you gain admission to medical school so that one day you will realize that chemotherapy and radiation treatment are not the only causes of hair loss, there are numerous other conditions that affect hair follicles and cause loss of hair. Please do not make assumptions concerning peoples conditions, quite surprisingly there are other medical maladies that are worse then chemo and radiation therapy that cause hair loss. You have a vast amount of education awaiting you, please make sure you take advantage of it. The point of my post was not to serve as an opportunity for you to make a personal attack and make such a statement that I lied about my religion, especially considering how seriously I take my faith. The point was to note that head covering for license pictures is a regional issue and that where I live, quite obvious from my user ID, there is extreme flexibilty concering head coverings, or at least where I had my picture taken. I never explained my situation to the photographer, I only asked to take my picture with the scarf on so that I could have a license for 3 or 5 years ( I forgot how often you have to renew them) that I would not mind using for identification. He said just tell me it's for religious reasons, and so I repeated after the man. (But, if you wish to get into a theologic discussion please PM me so that I can provide for you the specific book, chapter and verse from the King James version of the Holy Bible that states that a woman should have her hair covered and perhaps we can discuss the meaning and the various interpretations of this - and if it matters to you, no it is not in the Old Testament - it is in the New Testament.)

In addition, please note the specific use of the word probable in my statment concering the number of people polled. This is an obvious indication that I do not know the number of people polled.

And finally, as the OP stated, this was to be a discussion, therefore I never accused anyone within the forum of stating France is anti-American. It was a thought and question posted, just like the original post, although I am sure the even our President would be hesitant to state that France is no longer an ally of the United States. Although there are many Bush-isms out there, I don't think he has made that serious of an error.

 

[Mistress S]

This just proves what a bunch of cheese-eating surrender monkies the french truly are. When will they ever stop?!?

Seriously though, I agree that it is premature to call this a racist policy. If it is true that the french require this level of seperation of church and state for ALL religions, the policy can hardly be called xenophobic or racist. It seems excessive and unnecessary to most of us, but if they are applying the law equally--no habits for nuns, yarmulkas for jews, or hijabs for muslims--then it's not like they're discriminating against any particular group. I'm totally down for seperation of church and state, I don't see how this law would necessarily further that but whatever, it's their country.

On a side note, I actually happen to like the frenchy frogs and I'm glad that they, along with pretty much the rest of the world, told Shrub he could stuff it with this baseless war (oh wait! we caught Saddam now, so it's all good--who cares about WMD's?). And freedom fries, come on now, that's just ******ed. I wouldn't worry about any other countries sharing in the plunder of Iraq, I think that's pretty much reserved for those who have business connections to the members of our current administration (Halliburton, anyone?). But this is all getting a little off subject--just tired of all the french bashing, I guess.

 

[Spitting Camel]

Originally posted by GirlFromPhilly
(But, if you wish to get into a theologic discussion please PM me so that I can provide for you the specific book, chapter and verse from the King James version of the Holy Bible that states that a woman should have her hair covered and perhaps we can discuss the meaning and the various interpretations of this - and if it matters to you, no it is not in the Old Testament - it is in the New Testament.)

If I remember correctly from when I read the bible, I believe the head covering is when in church. You're also not to wear flashy articles or make-up either, correct?

I'm sorry for whatever illness you have. I wouldn't be going into medicine if I didn't want to learn more, wouldn't I? Anyways, Other people have read the bible besides yourself.