Housing

[ucladoc2b]

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Anyone brave enough to venture back in to the housing market recently?

I’m in a VHCOL area. Wife wants to buy. But I literally found the exact same house to rent for half the price. I don’t like renting, either, but inflated prices and high interest rates are no fun.

 

[Maverikk]

If you're solidly going to stay some place for 5+ years it's usually a better idea to buy, if you're uncertain rent. Trying to game it based on interest rates isn't worth it when it comes to real estate. And also depends on your initiative to do home improvements vs you don't want to be bothered

Khan Academy

en.khanacademy.org

 

[aneftp]

Anyone brave enough to venture back in to the housing market recently?

I’m in a VHCOL area. Wife wants to buy. But I literally found the exact same house to rent for half the price. I don’t like renting, either, but inflated prices and high interest rates are no fun.

Depends how many kids or pets you have.

If you have only one young child not in school yet. It’s can be a good move to sell and rent for a while.

I gotta keep my house another 3-5 years till kids finish school. Their friends all in the neighborhood so it’s more than a financial decision. Add that my interest rate is 2.0% it doesn’t cost me that much.

And I really don’t need the money (yet) from the equity I have already

 

[anonperson]

Anyone brave enough to venture back in to the housing market recently?

I’m in a VHCOL area. Wife wants to buy. But I literally found the exact same house to rent for half the price. I don’t like renting, either, but inflated prices and high interest rates are no fun.

Are you set on staying in your area or is there a decent chance you'll move?

Is this Southern California?

If it is, I would say buy as long as you can reasonably afford. Single family homes are at a premium and the push for more housing means multi unit dwellings/high rise apartments.

Better to lock in your rates now and maintain some security.

I'm in LA county, more inland, and bought with family help right out of training. It worked out well thankfully and was able to refi during pandemic down to 2.75% while house has appreciated a few hundred thousand.

 

[aneftp]

If you rent is half the cost of ur mortgage. Than rent.

Especially with trump 10k salt tax cap (1099 workers in blue states have circumvention mechanisms but w2 state can’t evade the cap) you can’t deduct property and state income taxes above 10k

So that plays a factor in the rent vs buy calculator and favors renting in many cases.

A single family rental is many parts of high cost areas run $7000-10000 a month for comparable homes that most people own (with mortgage). So are people paying 10-15k a month mortgage??

 

[ucladoc2b]

If you rent is half the cost of ur mortgage. Than rent.

Especially with trump 10k salt tax cap (1099 workers in blue states have circumvention mechanisms but w2 state can’t evade the cap) you can’t deduct property and state income taxes above 10k

So that plays a factor in the rent vs buy calculator and favors renting in many cases.

A single family rental is many parts of high cost areas run $7000-10000 a month for comparable homes that most people own (with mortgage). So are people paying 10-15k a month mortgage??

I looked at two houses (the rental was actually nicer and slightly bigger).

Rental is $6600 month.
PITI purchase was around $10500 with a physician loan.

 

[anonperson]

Especially with trump 10k salt tax cap (1099 workers in blue states have circumvention mechanisms but w2 state can’t evade the cap) you can’t deduct property and state income taxes above 10k

SALT cap Is set to expire Dec 31, 2025.

Hopefully will either expire outright or if extended, will have a higher cap.

 

[Simba1711]

I live in vhcol area and rent. I crunched the numbers and financially it makes more sense to just put my money in low cost index funds that I would otherwise put in for a down payment for a house.

 

[nimbus]

I looked at two houses (the rental was actually nicer and slightly bigger).

Rental is $6600 month.
PITI purchase was around $10500 with a physician loan.

Housing cost for the rental will be $6600/mo every month. If you purchase, housing cost will be $10500+$????/month. Purchase could still be worthwhile over the long term but that depends on luck. Only buy if you can easily afford it (monthly take home after taxes/retirement >$30k). Another option is to buy a cheaper house.

 

[JiPo]

I live in vhcol area and rent. I crunched the numbers and financially it makes more sense to just put my money in low cost index funds that I would otherwise put in for a down payment for a house.

That’s what I am doing. Also vhcol.

Someone I know has mortgage of 10k, but only about 2.5k goes towards the principal after all the interest and property tax. Id rather pay 5k for rent, and invest 5k in index fund.

Not to mention maintenance.

 

[psychbender]

I'm moving to a new job, so have to purchase a new home (nothing decent to rent there). It'll be the first time in my adult life I've seen an interest rate >7%, so my plan will be to aggressively pay off the mortgage, as that's higher than money market/ high yield savings returns, and the market is more volatile right now. At least the area isn't insane. A 4br/3ba 3000+ sqft home on half an acre is about $500-800k, depending on how nice the inside is and the neighborhood.

On the plus side, my current home is now estimated to sell at $200k more than I paid for it, and I could rent for easily over $1000/ month more than my mortgage here, as it would be one of the nicest rentals in an ideal location for the kinds of people who would be in the market to rent such a house (<5 minutes from the hospital, many new physicians here).

 

[Simba1711]

I'm moving to a new job, so have to purchase a new home (nothing decent to rent there). It'll be the first time in my adult life I've seen an interest rate >7%, so my plan will be to aggressively pay off the mortgage, as that's higher than money market/ high yield savings returns, and the market is more volatile right now. At least the area isn't insane. A 4br/3ba 3000+ sqft home on half an acre is about $500-800k, depending on how nice the inside is and the neighborhood.

On the plus side, my current home is now estimated to sell at $200k more than I paid for it, and I could rent for easily over $1000/ month more than my mortgage here, as it would be one of the nicest rentals in an ideal location for the kinds of people who would be in the market to rent such a house (<5 minutes from the hospital, many new physicians here).

If I were you I would just rent for the first year even if the options aren’t ideal. If you like her job you could look to buy. I’ve seen colleagues not like their new jobs but they can’t leave because their new purchased house handcuffs them.

 

[Simba1711]

That’s what I am doing. Also vhcol.

Someone I know has mortgage of 10k, but only about 2.5k goes towards the principal after all the interest and property tax. Id rather pay 5k for rent, and invest 5k in index fund.

Not to mention maintenance.

Yeah I hate explaining this to friends and family. Lot of comments like “you’re losing so much money on rent that you’re not getting back “. Housing costs have skyrocketed recently. renting vs buying is much more complicated than in the past and it really depends on a lot of factors.

 

[centdoc]

It is obvious, but I’ll say it anyway. If you do choose to buy, get the best price possible. Then get a fixed rate 30 year loan to keep the mortgage payment low (even though rates are high right now). Then, when rates come down you can refinance into a lower rate mortgage. Focus more on getting a low price now because you can’t change that later. Everything else can be changed.

 

[psychbender]

If I were you I would just rent for the first year even if the options aren’t ideal. If you like her job you could look to buy. I’ve seen colleagues not like their new jobs but they can’t leave because their new purchased house handcuffs them.

Had that experience once already. Had to buy and sell the same home in a twelve month period. Rented for two years after that. If this job falls through, I'll just make use of the nearby airport to do locums for a few years, rather than move the family again.

 

[DesiredMemberName?]

Devils advocate to those who say financials clearly favor rent/invest > buy (which used to be a hot contrarian take but now is treated by many as dogma):

Rents go up over time while PITI won’t change as much and could go down if youre lucky and can refi a lower rate later. House maintenance costs can go up, but those increased costs are passed along to renters anyway.

It really sucks to get kicked out of your house because the landlord sold it, or their kid graduated college and needs a place to live or whatever. Your kids have tons of friends in the neighborhood? Too bad.

Some VHCOL markets have zero ability to add SFHs. Condos and apartments can be built but the quantity of SFHs is fixed. If you want to live in one and have the ability to buy one now, you might want to take your shot while you can. There are many people locally and internationally who are waiting to buy the dip on these assets, so waiting for a buying opportunity is very risky. Maybe that 1 hour commute from the distant burbs won’t be so bad, though.

Obviously local dynamics vary significantly from place to place, but in general I think rent vs buy should be treated as a lifestyle decision, regardless of what the wannabe econs may tell you.

 

[aneftp]

Renting has been the best financial decision i ever made. My house which i rent would cost me 50% more per month to buy and im not getting charged extra since now on month to month after initial 1 year lease. If the real estate market tanks or a great deal comes then i may consider a house to buy.

The downpayment which i invested few years ago could almost buy the house I plan to buy nowadays and continues to grow. I would never buy a house in cash going forward.

Renting makes sense

If you have a spouse and school age kids plus pets. Your mentality about renting vs buying will most likely change.

 

[AppTrail]

Renting has been the best financial decision i ever made. My house which i rent would cost me 50% more per month to buy and im not getting charged extra since now on month to month after initial 1 year lease. If the real estate market tanks or a great deal comes then i may consider a house to buy.

The downpayment which i invested few years ago could almost buy the house I plan to buy nowadays and continues to grow. I would never buy a house in cash going forward.

really depends on your market...house we bought a few years ago doubled in value. Today, probably makes sense to rent cause the mortgage interest, taxes, insurance is insane.

Month-to-month doesn't sound great, can't your landlord terminate you with 30-day notice and you'll need to scramble to find housing?

 

[finalpsychyear]

really depends on your market...house we bought a few years ago doubled in value. Today, probably makes sense to rent cause the mortgage interest, taxes, insurance is insane.

Month-to-month doesn't sound great, can't your landlord terminate you with 30-day notice and you'll need to scramble to find housing?

We r the last renters before they move back in summer of 2027 or 2028 so i have 2 years minimum and plan to buy before then. Im betting will have better conditions in housing in that time range then now. I could be wrong but saving and investing extra till then.

 

[nimbus]

Beginning to see DOGE effect in DC.

Washington, D.C. Housing Inventory Jumps Record 25% Amid Federal Layoffs

The number of homes for sale in the nation’s capital is at the highest level since 2022 amid a mass reduction in the federal workforce.

www.redfin.com

 

[aneftp]

Yes true. I think we will have ATH in the markets later this year anyways so possible i would snag something. I consider my future house that i buy a luxury item and will not count it towards my FIRE numbers so need to make sure im in a good spot financially since id like to get a 5k sq feet house not counting a finished basement plus outdoor space.

I can’t predict the future. Housing prices have pretty much stabilized after the run up from mid 2020-late 2022/early 2023.

In most markets we are back to traditional 3-4% annual appreciation (when counting down sunk cost of housing like property taxes (1%) /1% maintenance on homes annual). Most homeowners are breaking even annually. But do get principal payments into the loan

No one is “fire”. I really can’t stand that term unless you don’t plan on having kids. Kids will sink you

I got 60 year olds doctors still helping their employed adult kids (who work and make good 150-200k a year jobs themselves) with car purchases or massive down payments on their homes.

So you need to evaluate your kid situation. If no kids you can be “fire” by the time you are age 40 easy these days.

 

[aneftp]

When i say FIRE i think i really mean FI where work would be bonus money and maybe aside from 401k/hsa/roth contributions the rest could be burned without skipping a beat. What range of liquid NW would someone in their mid 40s need to be FI with 2 kids in your experience since you have seen the costs?

2 kids kills u. No one I know with 2 kids under age 22 in their 40s is fire . Zero.

People underestimate how much kids cost and will continue to cost well into their 20s.

If 6000 a month rent is cheap. U need a min 10 million by the time mid 40s if y want to cut back with ur lifestyle. Just estimate you spend 20k post tax each month.

$250k a year. Post tax. That’s without vacation etc.
$75k a year goes to housing alone before electric gas water each. (Let’s say that’s another 15k). So 90k in housing. Alone it adds up quickly. Fire at age 45 means u gotta have at least post tax cash/retirement of around 8 million.

“Fire” is working per diem. That’s fire. If you gotta show up to work. You are not fire. No matter what anyone says. That is not fire

Financial independence is my 46 yo neighbor who sold his construction business at age 39. He’s on tennis courts , boating , golf course most mornings. He doesn’t even do consulting work. He did it his first 2 years post buyout. But he’s done done. Does he have other passive investments? Yes. But it’s not his day job.

That’s financial independence. Not working 16-20 hours a week because you are afraid you need more money.

 

[anonperson]

When i say FIRE i think i really mean FI where work would be bonus money and maybe aside from 401k/hsa/roth contributions the rest could be burned without skipping a beat. What range of liquid NW would someone in their mid 40s need to be FI with 2 kids in your experience since you have seen the costs?

How much are you planning on helping your kids?

College? Down payment on housing?

If so, then expect to work a long time.

I have 2 younger kids. Will help them with college and probably housing(want them to live in the general area) so no plans to retire for the next 20 years or so

 

[sloh]

Devils advocate to those who say financials clearly favor rent/invest > buy (which used to be a hot contrarian take but now is treated by many as dogma):

Rents go up over time while PITI won’t change as much and could go down if youre lucky and can refi a lower rate later. House maintenance costs can go up, but those increased costs are passed along to renters anyway.

It really sucks to get kicked out of your house because the landlord sold it, or their kid graduated college and needs a place to live or whatever. Your kids have tons of friends in the neighborhood? Too bad.

Some VHCOL markets have zero ability to add SFHs. Condos and apartments can be built but the quantity of SFHs is fixed. If you want to live in one and have the ability to buy one now, you might want to take your shot while you can. There are many people locally and internationally who are waiting to buy the dip on these assets, so waiting for a buying opportunity is very risky. Maybe that 1 hour commute from the distant burbs won’t be so bad, though.

Obviously local dynamics vary significantly from place to place, but in general I think rent vs buy should be treated as a lifestyle decision, regardless of what the wannabe econs may tell you.

Yup, talking to people trying to buy in Irvine/OC, often whenever they see a house they are willing to buy, they get outcompeted by other buyers who will buy it outright in cash.

 

[<(^_^)>]

FI is dependent only on your personal expenses. The RE is optional. You can be FI with 2M easily, if you’re ok spending ~70k a year. Still a better life than half of Americans get.

Basically FIRE folk are saying “it’s better to be middle class (or gasp, lower middle class) and have more disposable time in your life than disposable income.” I don’t fully subscribe to that line of thinking but it’s not that crazy.

 

[aneftp]

FI is dependent only on your personal expenses. The RE is optional. You can be FI with 2M easily, if you’re ok spending ~70k a year. Still a better life than half of Americans get.

Basically FIRE folk are saying “it’s better to be middle class (or gasp, lower middle class) and have more disposable time in your life than disposable income.” I don’t fully subscribe to that line of thinking but it’s not that crazy.

Even my 85 yo mom spends more than 70k a year post tax traveling. And my dad been dead for 20 years.

Can’t imagine anyone who is 45-50 yo who feels like they financially independent who used to making 400-700k a year can go down to 70k a year like that.

Check out the physicians dad forums where the docs complain their wives spend 4-5k on meaningless stuff EACH month alone.

Heck on of the docs I know his wife wants 200k on renovations on their 3rd home.

He literally has to make 800k and do shady 1099 tax write offs just to survive. And he’s got 5 kids

 

[abolt18]

Even my 85 yo mom spends more than 70k a year post tax traveling. And my dad been dead for 20 years.

Can’t imagine anyone who is 45-50 yo who feels like they financially independent who used to making 400-700k a year can go down to 70k a year like that.

Check out the physicians dad forums where the docs complain their wives spend 4-5k on meaningless stuff EACH month alone.

Heck on of the docs I know his wife wants 200k on renovations on their 3rd home.

He literally has to make 800k and do shady 1099 tax write offs just to survive. And he’s got 5 kids

He could also just say "no"...

 

[abolt18]

I agree. Its also a huge bonus if your partner has a 6 fig income. Keeps them busy working and less time spending just how it works.

Also i have given in and think if someone is sub 50 and making that range you stated they really should probably be close to 10m liquid because getting 5-7% would basically be replacing your income and better since only cap gains tax.

Also, being so young you also would need to work a few years after reaching that 10m to make sure it wasn't just the peak of some bull run that was about to crash and burn soon after you called it quits.

I know this is silly but i can't believe it costs 50-70 bucks to get my grass mowed on a 0.2 lot. Took the guy 20 min to do it.

That's unreasonable. Get another quote. I pay $170/mow and the dude mows 3.5-4 acres for me and runs a weed eater around the edges.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

That's unreasonable. Get another quote. I pay $170/mow and the dude mows 3.5-4 acres for me and runs a weed eater around the edges.

70 for mowing and edging on .5 acre here.

Ultimately little things like that don’t break people’s banks. Get the big stuff right 😉

 

[aneftp]

That's unreasonable. Get another quote. I pay $170/mow and the dude mows 3.5-4 acres for me and runs a weed eater around the edges.

Depends what part of the country you live in for lawn services.
and how many homes the lawn people service

I used to pay $100/month global fee for lawn and bush trim and they come once a week. There dirt cheap. 0.3

Now in my 0.6 they charge me $200/month global fee once a week. Still not bad. I’m in Florida.

 

[mmag]

Even my 85 yo mom spends more than 70k a year post tax traveling. And my dad been dead for 20 years.

Can’t imagine anyone who is 45-50 yo who feels like they financially independent who used to making 400-700k a year can go down to 70k a year like that.

Check out the physicians dad forums where the docs complain their wives spend 4-5k on meaningless stuff EACH month alone.

Heck on of the docs I know his wife wants 200k on renovations on their 3rd home.

He literally has to make 800k and do shady 1099 tax write offs just to survive. And he’s got 5 kids

If you've always lived the 70k lifestyle (even while making 400k+ a year) and want to continue at that level then you can become FI in your 40's. Pick a spouse who shares your financial outlook and set boundaries for kids. We're in the era ultra-processed food and consumption. It's so easy to overeat on empty calories and overspend on meaningless stuff. It's easy to see and reject women who are obese but gotta try to do the same for financial discipline - don't get with the ones who binge on shopping like a bag full of candy and hide the boxes/wrappers. There's no GLP1's to restrict spending. Oh and save up the money from not doing travel sports for all the kids and you'll have a nice pot of money to help them get started as young adults (esp if it's travel hockey).

 

[nimbus]

Interesting chart showing what we all know.

 

[anonperson]

all education and weddings. I btc alloted for each kid. If im right about digital gold it should take care of their expenses 18-20 years from now. If im wrong then I'll be working more.

You can easily live like a resident single or even with a wife. Once kids come into play, becomes much harder.

Tutoring -$
Music lessons-$
Sports -$
If the kid has some therapy needs like speech etc-$

If you go private school route->$$$

Now with kids there are certain vacations etc you will want to do in order to create some memories.

I am dropping $20,000 or so on a trip to Europe this summer. First international trip ever with the kids.

Of course a lot of this stuff is a luxury and kids/family could forego the music lessons, sports, trips etc. But then what's the point?

I work for my family. I'm fine with my job. Might as well keep working while still maintaining a reasonable quality of life. Retiring early won't help anything.

 

[aneftp]

You can easily live like a resident single or even with a wife. Once kids come into play, becomes much harder.

Tutoring -$
Music lessons-$
Sports -$
If the kid has some therapy needs like speech etc-$

If you go private school route->$$$

Now with kids there are certain vacations etc you will want to do in order to create some memories.

I am dropping $20,000 or so on a trip to Europe this summer. First international trip ever with the kids.

Of course a lot of this stuff is a luxury and kids/facility could forego the music lessons, sports, trips etc. But then what's the point?

I work for my family. I'm fine with my job. Might as well keep working while still maintaining a reasonable quality of life. Retiring early won't help anything.

Agree. I’d always thought I would retire by age 45. I’m 50. So that hasn’t happen. Can I retire on 200k a year for the rest of my life? Yeah. I can do that. But at my current pace of spending. I’d likely need 400k a year.

That’s why I will reevaluate in 4-5 years my full time status.

I drop around 50k every year for vacation the last 7-8 years. It’s expensive.

I’m just glad I don’t own a boat. Colleagues of mine spend 40k on fuel for the boat last year alone. Thats their hobby to go deep sea fishing

Life is expensive. If you can afford it. Spend some of it.

Incidentally my sister who’s got a ton of money flew coach class to Asia a few days ago. She’s real financial independence who finally gave up her partnership and just works when she feels like it prn. But she was only working 3 days a week the past 6-7 year anyways. So it’s not a big drop off to work a 1-2 days here and there.

Maybe that’s why she has a lot of money. But she’s weirdly cheap at flying but will spend $$$$ on hotels. And she drives a 2006 Toyota sienna minivan and 2021? Honda crv hybrid.

 

[finalpsychyear]

You can easily live like a resident single or even with a wife. Once kids come into play, becomes much harder.

Tutoring -$
Music lessons-$
Sports -$
If the kid has some therapy needs like speech etc-$

If you go private school route->$$$

Now with kids there are certain vacations etc you will want to do in order to create some memories.

I am dropping $20,000 or so on a trip to Europe this summer. First international trip ever with the kids.

Of course a lot of this stuff is a luxury and kids/facility could forego the music lessons, sports, trips etc. But then what's the point?

I work for my family. I'm fine with my job. Might as well keep working while still maintaining a reasonable quality of life. Retiring early won't help anything.

Your very right. Im anticipating expenses doubling just to be safe.

just being able to walk is worth a lot to me. Not saying i would walk 100% but walking around with fu money is a hugge milestone

 

[AKMD_1984]

You can easily live like a resident single or even with a wife. Once kids come into play, becomes much harder.

Tutoring -$
Music lessons-$
Sports -$
If the kid has some therapy needs like speech etc-$

If you go private school route->$$$

Now with kids there are certain vacations etc you will want to do in order to create some memories.

I am dropping $20,000 or so on a trip to Europe this summer. First international trip ever with the kids.

Of course a lot of this stuff is a luxury and kids/family could forego the music lessons, sports, trips etc. But then what's the point?

I work for my family. I'm fine with my job. Might as well keep working while still maintaining a reasonable quality of life. Retiring early won't help anything.

Many of the docs I know that did the whole fire ring are back doing anesthesia part time

They started losing it after 8 months of doing nothing and 3-4 vacations

One of my friends goes I was losing my identity

Now they’re working but don’t work for money

They do it for intellectual stimulation and to be social

 

[finalpsychyear]

Many of the docs I know that did the whole fire ring are back doing anesthesia part time

They started losing it after 8 months of doing nothing and 3-4 vacations

One of my friends goes I was losing my identity

Now they’re working but don’t work for money

They do it for intellectual stimulation and to be social

They did it wrong. You never go to another extreme. You level down. With your field and the ability to work shifts or stretch weeks the possibilites are endless. I had a friend go 0.75, then 0.5, then 0.25 only to go back to 0.5. I find i do more on my work days often than on a lazy sat/sun.

Working a few times a week get you into a rhythm with your sleep and wake times. I dont care how diciplined you are in our society anyone can be up till 1-2 am streaming/shopping/social media then sleep in or sleep bad and just drag the next day. This is what i am learning as I am still far from FIRE or FI but work is like exercise and very important for your long term health imo..

 

[PainInTheAnes]

They did it wrong. You never go to another extreme. You level down. With your field and the ability to work shifts or stretch weeks the possibilites are endless. I had a friend go 0.75, then 0.5, then 0.25 only to go back to 0.5. I find i do more on my work days often than on a lazy sat/sun.

Working a few times a week get you into a rhythm with your sleep and wake times. I dont care how diciplined you are in our society anyone can be up till 1-2 am streaming/shopping/social media then sleep in or sleep bad and just drag the next day. This is what i am learning as I am still far from FIRE or FI but work is like exercise and very important for your long term help imo..

Yup, my concern is I won’t be able to find anything other than medical stuff to work at part time and feel like it’s worth doing.

Money means more than just ability to buy things or time back. It’s a concrete measure of how someone feels about what you do at the end of the day. It’s hard to leave money on the table doing something less concretely valuable than hands on medicine like anesthesia, psych, surgery, or any patient facing or productive specialty

 

[aneftp]

It depends on the gender of the anesthesiologists. Female anesthesiologists are way more likely to retire retire early. And call it a day. Of course having two incomes helps.

So it’s not just about fire. It’s also gender related. And more importantly hobbies. The boating expenses and airplane upkeep is crazy expensive.

 

[GravelRider]

Many of the docs I know that did the whole fire ring are back doing anesthesia part time

They started losing it after 8 months of doing nothing and 3-4 vacations

One of my friends goes I was losing my identity

Now they’re working but don’t work for money

They do it for intellectual stimulation and to be social

Retiring completely that early was always a silly idea. The whole idea behind FIRE is about controlling expenses so that your savings can pay for your lifestyle. The problem is, things you do to fill your time like hobbies and travel all cost money and those costs will inevitably go up once you have more time to fill. It’s very difficult to account for that free time when calculating future expenses. Most physicians who retire completely at an older age have a large enough cushion to account for that free time as they fill it with hobbies and travel.

I think the most important thing to achieving financial independence is a slower ramp down of work as you live a fuller life. That also allows you to cultivate hobbies (and relationships) that you can fill your time with for when you completely retire. It’s a slow ramp down of work and a concomitant ramp up of an outside life. To me there is nothing sadder than the 70 year old physicians still banging away doing full time simply because they never cultivated a life outside. They are usually miserable at work (but pretend they love it), but they have nothing for themselves at home.

 

[aneftp]

Retiring completely that early was always a silly idea. The whole idea behind FIRE is about controlling expenses so that your savings can pay for your lifestyle. The problem is, things you do to fill your time like hobbies and travel all cost money and those costs will inevitably go up once you have more time to fill. It’s very difficult to account for that free time when calculating future expenses. Most physicians who retire completely at an older age have a large enough cushion to account for that free time as they fill it with hobbies and travel.

I think the most important thing to achieving financial independence is a slower ramp down of work as you live a fuller life. That also allows you to cultivate hobbies (and relationships) that you can fill your time with for when you completely retire. It’s a slow ramp down of work and a concomitant ramp up of an outside life. To me there is nothing sadder than the 70 year old physicians still banging away doing full time simply because they never cultivated a life outside. They are usually miserable at work (but pretend they love it), but they have nothing for themselves at home.

I dunno. My colleague was around 70 before he killed himself. He was a partner with a massive multi million dollar anesthesia buyout in 2014 well. He was very active and fit. Did so many things for fun. Kayak, climb mountains , competitive biking, ran marathons, boating everything you would image someone in Florida doing. This was as fit a guy as you can see. Reston heart rate was in the 40s. Owned Multiple homes

But he was miserable at work. But i only think he worked cause he hated his wife. It’s true. Too old to divorce. But hated the wife. So the wife waiting at home …that’s what he didn’t want. So he worked to avoid the life at home. So some docs just work to avoid the home life. Not because they don’t have other hobbies. He clearly had so many hobbies.

 

[AppTrail]

Retiring completely that early was always a silly idea. The whole idea behind FIRE is about controlling expenses so that your savings can pay for your lifestyle. The problem is, things you do to fill your time like hobbies and travel all cost money and those costs will inevitably go up once you have more time to fill. It’s very difficult to account for that free time when calculating future expenses. Most physicians who retire completely at an older age have a large enough cushion to account for that free time as they fill it with hobbies and travel.

I think the most important thing to achieving financial independence is a slower ramp down of work as you live a fuller life. That also allows you to cultivate hobbies (and relationships) that you can fill your time with for when you completely retire. It’s a slow ramp down of work and a concomitant ramp up of an outside life. To me there is nothing sadder than the 70 year old physicians still banging away doing full time simply because they never cultivated a life outside. They are usually miserable at work (but pretend they love it), but they have nothing for themselves at home.

Honestly feel like you hit the nail on the head

 

[GravelRider]

I dunno. My colleague was around 70 before he killed himself. He was a partner with a massive multi million dollar anesthesia buyout in 2014 well. He was very active and fit. Did so many things for fun. Kayak, climb mountains , competitive biking, ran marathons, boating everything you would image someone in Florida doing. This was as fit a guy as you can see. Reston heart rate was in the 40s. Owned Multiple homes

But he was miserable at work. But i only think he worked cause he hated his wife. It’s true. Too old to divorce. But hated the wife. So the wife waiting at home …that’s what he didn’t want. So he worked to avoid the life at home. So some docs just work to avoid the home life. Not because they don’t have other hobbies. He clearly had so many hobbies.

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? I can’t tell. A 70 year old workaholic with a failed marriage who was miserable and killed himself? Ok, he had hobbies. Clearly you missed the part about cultivating relationships outside of work. It’s ok to have a few friends from work, but when your social life is based solely on work colleagues, you are in trouble. Not only does that make it hard to retire, but it also makes it harder to leave a bad job. Work should be a part of your life, not your whole life.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Retiring completely that early was always a silly idea. The whole idea behind FIRE is about controlling expenses so that your savings can pay for your lifestyle. The problem is, things you do to fill your time like hobbies and travel all cost money and those costs will inevitably go up once you have more time to fill. It’s very difficult to account for that free time when calculating future expenses. Most physicians who retire completely at an older age have a large enough cushion to account for that free time as they fill it with hobbies and travel.

I think the most important thing to achieving financial independence is a slower ramp down of work as you live a fuller life. That also allows you to cultivate hobbies (and relationships) that you can fill your time with for when you completely retire. It’s a slow ramp down of work and a concomitant ramp up of an outside life. To me there is nothing sadder than the 70 year old physicians still banging away doing full time simply because they never cultivated a life outside. They are usually miserable at work (but pretend they love it), but they have nothing for themselves at home.

8-10m liquid is probably what u need to retire sub 50 with similar cash flow vs if u were working gas using the 3-4% rule. But thats only the financial part and only aneftp seems to know those folks bc i dont know anyone thats fits that range.

 

[aneftp]

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? I can’t tell. A 70 year old workaholic with a failed marriage who was miserable and killed himself? Ok, he had hobbies. Clearly you missed the part about cultivating relationships outside of work. It’s ok to have a few friends from work, but when your social life is based solely on work colleagues, you are in trouble. Not only does that make it hard to retire, but it also makes it harder to leave a bad job. Work should be a part of your life, not your whole life.

He has hobbies plus killed himself. He has his own friends outside of work! And his own hobbies! So him killing himself is a contradiction to someone who didn’t have friends or family. He has tons of them.

What I’m saying there is no simple answer why people choose to work when they don’t have to work.

Life is not simple and all individuals are different.

 

[GravelRider]

He has hobbies plus killed himself. He has his own friends outside of work! And his own hobbies! So him killing himself is a contradiction to someone who didn’t have friends or family. He has tons of them.

What I’m saying there is no simple answer why people choose to work when they don’t have to work.

Life is not simple and all individuals are different.

Him working full time at age 70 is all I need to know. But sweet anecdote.

 

[aneftp]

Him working full time at age 70 is all I need to know. But sweet anecdote.

I wouldn’t call working 3-4 days 30- hrs a week and no calls no weekends as real full time work compared to his 70 plus hours a week as a partner

 

[GravelRider]

I wouldn’t call working 3-4 days 30- hrs a week and no calls no weekends as real full time work compared to his 70 plus hours a week as a partner

Got it. Sounds like your friend was happy and full of life. Cool story.

 

[aneftp]

Got it. Sounds like your friend was happy and full of life. Cool story.

People are or can be enigma. Unpredictable.

People can kill themselves even with hobbies and friends. So the cultivation of relationships out of work doesn’t mean jack at times. I think people like to paint some instagram perfect utopia that doesn’t exist. It’s very cliche to use the word cultivate life outside of work to be happy.

You never know what demons people are fighting inside their head. Whether it’s a spur of the moment just to kill themselves that day. Or something that’s being going on for a while.

 

[pgg]

I wouldn’t call working 3-4 days 30- hrs a week and no calls no weekends as real full time work compared to his 70 plus hours a week as a partner

If I'm working more than 0 hours/week at age 70 on anything except my hobbies, I will consider myself a failure of an anesthesiologist.