How accurate is the "cheapest=best" school mindset?

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iralex801 said:
👍. Anyone ever realize this is the the trend for most things? Your elders tell you something, but you never believe them until you experience it yourself. However, by then, it's too late to go back and you live with the consequences. Then, you'll say that in the future, you will make sure your kids do the right thing. Then the cycle continues :laugh:. I'm guilty of it too 😎.
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cool story to mention about this: my old boss was studying hardcore for a state licensed exam (kinda like the boards) he noticed a college buddy (aka hot girl) sunbathing on campus, she invited him to do the same while listening to the radio and relaxing. The test was in a few days and he opted to focus on the future (aka that exam,) she opted to sunbathe and listen to the radio. Fast forward to a month, my boss finds out he passed the test and the girl obviously failed. My boss says "She sure got to find out what was on the radio that day, but now I can sunbathe and listen to the radio knowing that I passed my test."

Moral of the story: putting off short term gratification for long term gratification is almost always a winning situation. Impulse control is one of the most important predictors of success, addiction, etc. (google it if you dont believe me.)

I gave up everything in my life for the last 2 years and now I got multiple d-school acceptances. If I was focused on hanging out with friends and "living in the moment" i might not be here on this forum. Sometimes you gotta work hard, before you can play hard.

And thats the type of message I'll hardly stop preaching.
 
Haven't got much to add, except that looking at the OP's predent's profile, I have to wonder why this topic even came up? If it's between USC and NYU what difference does it make.

I'll also say I am greatly amused at the vapid arguments that popped up here (ivy vs others; more expensive schools = happiness; what you can do in your 20s that you can't do later, etc)... now my co-worker is giving me a weird look because I can't stop laughing out loud.

Also, from personal experience, student loan debt is very stressful and awful all around, if you can't avoid it, at least "try" for the least amount, if possible.
 
Since cost is a huge factor...

Everyone should just not attend dental school this cycle. We should all move to texas and try to gain state residency before applying. Wouldn't that make more sense? Those 2 years lost... will still be better than the loans accumulated during school AND your income for the first 2 years.
 
dentalWorks said:
here is a fact about SDN:
Ever notice why most pre-dents always say "oh just go where you'll be happy, money is irrelevent"

then many dental students say "no, cost should be #1 factor"

and practically MOST dentists say "go to CHEAPEST school possible"

Seeing the trend?
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yep I understand
 
guess i will stir the pot a bit

if you end up specializing because the more expensive school provides you with better opportunities, then the difference in cost will be repaid to you many times over during the course of your career.

yes you can specialize at every school, but at this point i am pretty convinced its easier from some schools, particularly when half the students in these schools specialize and its not even the top half always. Also I am also not convinced of the viewpoint that all these students would have managed to specialize anywhere, particularly when you are all so ready to point out that many top students would turn down harvard/penn/columbia to go to their cheaper state school.

not everyone is financially doomed simply because they didn't go to state school.

PS obviously i am biased, but this is SDN and so is everyone else
 
JOoa0ky said:
Since cost is a huge factor...

Everyone should just not attend dental school this cycle. We should all move to texas and try to gain state residency before applying. Wouldn't that make more sense? Those 2 years lost... will still be better than the loans accumulated during school AND your income for the first 2 years.
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👍:laugh:

That would be my cheapest option. Looks like my decision is made for me!
 
SupDanLOL said:
I'm definitely in the "it's okay to go to the more expensive school" camp. It's a small camp.
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ViviPreDent said:
👍 count me in as well.
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I'm in the "it depends" camp all by my lonesome self.

JOoa0ky said:
Since cost is a huge factor...

Everyone should just not attend dental school this cycle. We should all move to texas and try to gain state residency before applying. Wouldn't that make more sense? Those 2 years lost... will still be better than the loans accumulated during school AND your income for the first 2 years.
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I know this is meant in jest, but you realize that you wouldn't be shaving off the income from your first two years, rather that you'd really be losing the income from your last two years, right?
 
dentalWorks said:
here is a fact about SDN:
Ever notice why most pre-dents always say "oh just go where you'll be happy, money is irrelevent"

then many dental students say "no, cost should be #1 factor"

and practically MOST dentists say "go to CHEAPEST school possible"

Seeing the trend?
Click to expand...
Huh. I've found that most pre-dents and dental students go with the cost thing, and I have had literally every dentist I've talked to tell me not to worry about cost because I'll make it back pretty quickly if I'm a good clinician and can join into a well-established group practice. It might just be the area of the country I'm from, who knows.
 
veggieheadgeek said:
Huh. I've found that most pre-dents and dental students go with the cost thing, and I have had literally every dentist I've talked to tell me not to worry about cost because I'll make it back pretty quickly if I'm a good clinician and can join into a well-established group practice. It might just be the area of the country I'm from, who knows.
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or maybe they went to dental school when it cost $50 a class
 
veggieheadgeek said:
Huh. I've found that most pre-dents and dental students go with the cost thing, and I have had literally every dentist I've talked to tell me not to worry about cost because I'll make it back pretty quickly if I'm a good clinician and can join into a well-established group practice. It might just be the area of the country I'm from, who knows.
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You should show them the price tag and interest rates for some of the schools before you ask them this. Paying 800K over 20 years is not fun. I don't see how any dentist would endorse this unless they're just blinded by their own wealth. Dental school tuition was a different story back when they went to school.
 
Can I please please throw UOP in the mix?! I know most of the discussion has been go to the cheaper school. This thread has been about comparing 4 yr vs 4 yr schools and of course the the cheaper school is more reasonable. But how about cheaper 4 yr vs expensive 3 year? How does everyone feel about saving 1 year? Time or money? Or is time money?
 
The difference between UOP and another school I'm thinking about is 70k. When I figured that I would go to the cheaper school, someone told me not to think about the extra year from UOP as a way to make up for the difference but as 1 year sooner to your peak income... Whatever that is... I'm really confused. Anyone else look at it that way?
 
I have a friend at UoP and he explained it to me that way. He said to not think of the first year's salary that would replace, but the one year extra that you would practice at the end of your career. How much would you make then? Basically because you started earlier, you have an extra of top speed production salary. He said that using that estimated salary easily makes it worth it. I don't know if I completely agree but it is good to see a different perspective like that.
 
Waldo2012 said:
I have a friend at UoP and he explained it to me that way. He said to not think of the first year's salary that would replace, but the one year extra that you would practice at the end of your career. How much would you make then? Basically because you started earlier, you have an extra of top speed production salary. He said that using that estimated salary easily makes it worth it. I don't know if I completely agree but it is good to see a different perspective like that.
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👍

You may start off at say 90k, but towards the end of your career you maybe making 400k. Therefore, you will be making an extra 400k+ if you start a year early IMO if things roll out this way. Something to consider.
 
dentalWorks said:
here is a fact about SDN:
Ever notice why most pre-dents always say "oh just go where you'll be happy, money is irrelevent"

then many dental students say "no, cost should be #1 factor"

and practically MOST dentists say "go to CHEAPEST school possible"

Seeing the trend?
Click to expand...


Bingo......I am going cheap.
 
Hmm.. I dont think you would be gaining an extra 400K+. However I also dont think you would be gaining an extra average years salary either. If anyone on here is familiar with TVM (Time Value of Money), this is my thought on the UoP 3 year program vs a traditional 4 year program.

Lets say in a 4 year program, you practice 35 years, whereas with the 3 year program you practice 36 years due to the extra year of working by going to the shorter program. Assuming a conservative required rate of return of 4% annually (based on possible investment returns), lets look at the present value of that 36th year. Say you earn 400k in that year, then the present value of that year is equal to $400,000/(1.04^36) = $97,467.49. OK, now what is extra cost to going to UoP? if it is less than this amount, then it is worth it. If it is greater than this, then it is not worth it. 😎

Please know, these numbers are based on dollars valued at the day of graduation. 👍
 
Bereno said:
Hmm.. I dont think you would be gaining an extra 400K+. However I also dont think you would be gaining an extra average years salary either. If anyone on here is familiar with TVM (Time Value of Money), this is my thought on the UoP 3 year program vs a traditional 4 year program.

Lets say in a 4 year program, you practice 35 years, whereas with the 3 year program you practice 36 years due to the extra year of working by going to the shorter program. Assuming a conservative required rate of return of 4% annually (based on possible investment returns), lets look at the present value of that 36th year. Say you earn 400k in that year, then the present value of that year is equal to $400,000/(1.04^36) = $97,467.49. OK, now what is extra cost to going to UoP? if it is less than this amount, then it is worth it. If it is greater than this, then it is not worth it. 😎

Please know, these numbers are based on dollars valued at the day of graduation. 👍
Click to expand...

I was just throwing out numbers but that is basically my point; nice equation by the way. 😀
 
Bereno said:
Hmm.. I dont think you would be gaining an extra 400K+. However I also dont think you would be gaining an extra average years salary either. If anyone on here is familiar with TVM (Time Value of Money), this is my thought on the UoP 3 year program vs a traditional 4 year program.

Lets say in a 4 year program, you practice 35 years, whereas with the 3 year program you practice 36 years due to the extra year of working by going to the shorter program. Assuming a conservative required rate of return of 4% annually (based on possible investment returns), lets look at the present value of that 36th year. Say you earn 400k in that year, then the present value of that year is equal to $400,000/(1.04^36) = $97,467.49. OK, now what is extra cost to going to UoP? if it is less than this amount, then it is worth it. If it is greater than this, then it is not worth it. 😎

Please know, these numbers are based on dollars valued at the day of graduation. 👍
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Wow! Very impressive... that makes the decision much easier and puts things in perspective! Thanks for the input!
 
FLOSS UR TEETH said:
You have a Phd and you're 20?!
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Not hardly.

I am 20 though.

41796_4952066493_1592_n.jpg
 
A6project said:
👍 haha i was hoping you add your financial point of view.
Now the problem is
how do you know how much you will be making? and where do you draw the line? 😛
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haha, I can't help it 😀

Thats a very valid point, and I don't really know. However, lets say you cut that number in half. and only earn 200k in your last year. then you would be gaining an extra $48,733.74. Either way, the extra year is a pretty solid plus. Just something to think about.
 
Bereno said:
haha, I can't help it 😀

Thats a very valid point, and I don't really know. However, lets say you cut that number in half. and only earn 200k in your last year. then you would be gaining an extra $48,733.74. Either way, the extra year is a pretty solid plus. Just something to think about.
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not to steal your thunder, but the since inflation is rampant that $48K will be worth significantly less in 35 years 🙂 assuming a 3% yearly inflation, it might be net-net no difference in gaining that years worth of income. Unless of course, you are the master investor and can turn that extra cash into a nice bag of cash $$$$. lol

I know I'm discounting your 4% investment income, but most dentists aren't smart enough to invest properly. They might have some years at 5-10% returns, but I also see a lot of years where they are simply in the red. 😀
 
wired202808 said:
not to steal your thunder, but the since inflation is rampant that $48K will be worth significantly less in 35 years 🙂 assuming a 3% yearly inflation, it might be net-net no difference in gaining that years worth of income. Unless of course, you are the master investor and can turn that extra cash into a nice bag of cash $$$$. lol

I know I'm discounting your 4% investment income, but most dentists aren't smart enough to invest properly. They might have some years at 5-10% returns, but I also see a lot of years where they are simply in the red. 😀
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No thunder stolen buddy 👍 If you re-read that last line of mine in post #74, I briefly mentioned these numbers are valued at the time of graduation. This means that there is no time frame for inflation to affect these numbers. Even then, inflation would favor the UoP position because income would rise earlier, whereas the upfront cost is fixed. 😀
 
Bereno said:
No thunder stolen buddy 👍 If you re-read that last line of mine in post #74, I briefly mentioned these numbers are valued at the time of graduation. This means that there is no time frame for inflation to affect these numbers. Even then, inflation would favor the UoP position because income would rise earlier, whereas the upfront cost is fixed. 😀
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touche :laugh:
 
wired202808 said:
cool story to mention about this: my old boss was studying hardcore for a state licensed exam (kinda like the boards) he noticed a college buddy (aka hot girl) sunbathing on campus, she invited him to do the same while listening to the radio and relaxing. The test was in a few days and he opted to focus on the future (aka that exam,) she opted to sunbathe and listen to the radio. Fast forward to a month, my boss finds out he passed the test and the girl obviously failed. My boss says "She sure got to find out what was on the radio that day, but now I can sunbathe and listen to the radio knowing that I passed my test."

Moral of the story: putting off short term gratification for long term gratification is almost always a winning situation. Impulse control is one of the most important predictors of success, addiction, etc. (google it if you dont believe me.)

I gave up everything in my life for the last 2 years and now I got multiple d-school acceptances. If I was focused on hanging out with friends and "living in the moment" i might not be here on this forum. Sometimes you gotta work hard, before you can play hard.

And thats the type of message I'll hardly stop preaching.
Click to expand...

I agree that impulse-control is a great indicator of success. That is why gunners are so successful. However, I don't know if I would say long-term gratification is always better than short-term gratification personally. I personally don't like gunners as in I wouldn't hang out with them because they'd probably be lame, but I do admire their ability to pass up all the temptations in life in order to achieve their ultimate dream. I know I don't have that type of self-control. Whether sacrificing so much to achieve that ultimate dream will bring them happiness? Who knows. I guess it's up to the individual.

Typically, I go in phases where I won't study and phases where I do nothing but study. I'm a crammer and I always will be. This will bite me in the ass in D-school, but I'm sure I'll be able to adapt. It doesn't help that I surround myself with friends who would be consider low-lives, but they are fun to hang out with. Although I am bummed about leaving my state to go to D-school because I will be so far away from my boys who I grew up with since grade school, sometimes, I think it is a positive in respect for my individual success. In D-school, I'm sure I'll make friends who have the same goals as me and won't always be asking me to go out. I'll become a better student because I'm surrounding myself with more positive influences 🙂.

BTW. This is why I enjoy SDN so much. It's refreshing to have an intelligent conversation once in awhile :laugh:.
 
iralex801 said:
I agree that impulse-control is a great indicator of success. That is why gunners are so successful. However, I don't know if I would say long-term gratification is always better than short-term gratification personally. I personally don't like gunners as in I wouldn't hang out with them because they'd probably be lame, but I do admire their ability to pass up all the temptations in life in order to achieve their ultimate dream. I know I don't have that type of self-control. Whether sacrificing so much to achieve that ultimate dream will bring them happiness? Who knows. I guess it's up to the individual.

Typically, I go in phases where I won't study and phases where I do nothing but study. I'm a crammer and I always will be. This will bite me in the ass in D-school, but I'm sure I'll be able to adapt. It doesn't help that I surround myself with friends who would be consider low-lives, but they are fun to hang out with. Although I am bummed about leaving my state to go to D-school because I will be so far away from my boys who I grew up with since grade school, sometimes, I think it is a positive in respect for my individual success. In D-school, I'm sure I'll make friends who have the same goals as me and won't always be asking me to go out. I'll become a better student because I'm surrounding myself with more positive influences 🙂.

BTW. This is why I enjoy SDN so much. It's refreshing to have an intelligent conversation once in awhile :laugh:.
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lol i like how you spun goal setting and prioritization into a gunner :laugh: good one but you totally warped a good story about simple planning into something else.
 
mc719 said:
I think the conclusion that a lot of people would come to after reading these posts about UoP vs state school would be that it is IMPOSSIBLE to come anywhere near accurately predicting the career cost vs value differences. There are waaay too many variables to consider. The only thing that can be measured at this point is cost of attendance. That's why cost of attendance is discussed so much. Even cost of attendance is variable depending on your individual circumstances. You've probably researched as much as you can about both options, now you just need to pick which one feels better after knowing all of the factors. Logical arguments can be made in support of either choice. If you choose your state school and think that you will regret turning down UoP, then go to UoP so you won't have any "what-if" moments. If you choose UoP and think that you will regret not going to your state school, then go to your state school for the same reason. I guess the point I'm trying to make with this thread is that we shouldn't sell ourselves short. We only have one chance to go to dental school. I don't think the sole factor should be cost of attendance because someday, when we are all old rich dentists, some of us will look back and have regrets for constantly sacrificing their current happiness, and some of us will look back and be content that we lived the best way that we possibly could with our One chance at life.
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Nice! So either way, I'm going to regret it. Haha
 
mc719 said:
I think the conclusion that a lot of people would come to after reading these posts about UoP vs state school would be that it is IMPOSSIBLE to come anywhere near accurately predicting the career cost vs value differences. There are waaay too many variables to consider. The only thing that can be measured at this point is cost of attendance. That's why cost of attendance is discussed so much. Even cost of attendance is variable depending on your individual circumstances. You've probably researched as much as you can about both options, now you just need to pick which one feels better after knowing all of the factors. Logical arguments can be made in support of either choice. If you choose your state school and think that you will regret turning down UoP, then go to UoP so you won't have any "what-if" moments. If you choose UoP and think that you will regret not going to your state school, then go to your state school for the same reason. I guess the point I'm trying to make with this thread is that we shouldn't sell ourselves short. We only have one chance to go to dental school. I don't think the sole factor should be cost of attendance because someday, when we are all old rich dentists, some of us will look back and have regrets for constantly sacrificing their current happiness, and some of us will look back and be content that we lived the best way that we possibly could with our One chance at life.
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😕 an old dentist will be happy he made the fiscally responsible choice. i never regret saving a buck, but thats just me.
 
wired202808 said:
lol i like how you spun goal setting and prioritization into a gunner :laugh: good one but you totally warped a good story about simple planning into something else.
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lol. Now that I read it again, I see I really went off topic. Sorry, this was just on my mind lately about leaving my state 🙁. Just ignore it lol.
 
mc719 said:
Yeah, but it's not all about fiscal responsibility, watch A Christmas Carol if you don't believe me.
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4 yr sacrifice does not equal a lifetime of regret or a lifetime of other sacrifices. I think its unfair that you are pushing to sell this viewpoint. I had a ton of friends that went to law school and pushed the same logic as you, now they're crying their faces out because they're knee deep in debt.

If you feel like spending another 100K thats OK, but i dont think thats the average perspective nor should it be. Dentistry is about making a committed quality lifetime choice. To make the assumption that picking the cheaper school is a bad or regretful choice is no different than assuming that the stock market is always going to go up or that money grows on trees, in a way its nearly foolish.

I am also wondering if you feel this way because you are seeking to get into some state school and you hope people drop their seats for you? I dare to make this sort of conclusion, but your viewpoint is nearly 180 degrees from every other predent on here. Sorry for questioning your motives.
 
iralex801 said:
lol. Now that I read it again, I see I really went off topic. Sorry, this was just on my mind lately about leaving my state 🙁. Just ignore it lol.
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no worries my friend, what state are you considering leaving?
 
mc719 said:
haha, no I'm doing the HPSP scholarship so it doesn't matter where I go, and if you look at the schools I applied to, I didn't apply to many state schools. I made this thread exactly because it is 180 degrees from every other predent on here. I'll say it one more time, this thread is not to promote fiscal irresponsibility; it is promoting keeping your options open. The cheapest=best idea should not trump all other considerations. There are many other factors to consider. But, because practically every other predent on here is shouting the motto "go to the cheapest school" people are taking the easy route out of making this decision and just going by the $numbers.
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wow man so basically you are telling people to splurge and live a carefree debt filled life just because your getting a free ride?

:wtf:

I think you should stop right there with that "great advice."
 
mc719 said:
I guess the point I'm trying to make with this thread is that we shouldn't sell ourselves short. We only have one chance to go to dental school. I don't think the sole factor should be cost of attendance because someday, when we are all old rich dentists, some of us will look back and have regrets for constantly sacrificing their current happiness, and some of us will look back and be content that we lived the best way that we possibly could with our One chance at life.
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Really? No splurging? :laugh: I think you are trying to speak from both sides of your mouth. But I intend to end my contribution here since its going nowhere and most people will hopefully understand that they should save and not overspend since they wont be going down any military scholarship route.

the end. 🙂
 
Didn't read the whole thread... but I believe cost is one of the most important things to consider. I think it may be difficult for some of us to see it now... but once we're in dental school and/or graduated, a lot of us will realize it's better to attend a cheaper school because we're all going to end up with the same degree anyway. I've spoke to several dentists, recent graduates, and current dental students about this, and they also believe it's better to attend the cheapest school.
 
mc719 said:
If anything I'm trying to convince people to go to whatever school they want to and then find a way to pay for it using things like like HPSP, NHSC, Specializing, IBR-10yr federal loan forviveness.
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No. You should decide if you want to do military, NHSC, specialize, BEFORE you choose your school. Going that route isn't for everyone. It's not some "get out of of loans" card you can just throw around. You need to think long and hard before you commit yourself.
 
AwesomeTeeth said:
No. You should decide if you want to do military, NHSC, specialize, BEFORE you choose your school. Going that route isn't for everyone. It's not some "get out of of loans" card you can just throw around. You need to think long and hard before you commit yourself.
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+1

I think about dental school like a car. I'm pretty damn sure that all cars are essentially the same in that they get me from A to B. However, there are nicer, albeit, more expensive cars, and then there are cheaper, less nice cars. I don't really care what car I drive so long as it gets me where I want to go. Will the nice car make me "happier"? No, I think happiness comes from "within" because I buy into all that cheesy nonsense. I am really confused why people seem to be associating happiness with a more expensive school... Where does it say that a more expensive school will provide you with happiness?
 
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