How acupuncture works

[PublicHealth]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16325429&query_hl=13

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[chirodoc]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16325429&query_hl=13

I thought they stuck in needle in someones inflated sense of security in alternative medicine and proceeded to drain out one's common sense.

After my wife got a staple put into her ear and came home with unidentified baggies of 'herbs' for weight loss from an acupuncturist I was convinced it was a practice in stupidity. After 3 weeks and no weight loss I had to get a pair of dikes out of my tool box and cut the dang thing off. A little extra twist at the end got my point across to the Mrs.'s that some of this garbage is well...garbage.

 

[PublicHealth]

I thought they stuck in needle in someones inflated sense of security in alternative medicine and proceeded to drain out one's common sense.

After my wife got a staple put into her ear and came home with unidentified baggies of 'herbs' for weight loss from an acupuncturist I was convinced it was a practice in stupidity. After 3 weeks and no weight loss I had to get a pair of dikes out of my tool box and cut the dang thing off. A little extra twist at the end got my point across to the Mrs.'s that some of this garbage is well...garbage.

The evidence is mixed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed

 

[billydoc]

I thought they stuck in needle in someones inflated sense of security in alternative medicine and proceeded to drain out one's common sense.

After my wife got a staple put into her ear and came home with unidentified baggies of 'herbs' for weight loss from an acupuncturist I was convinced it was a practice in stupidity. After 3 weeks and no weight loss I had to get a pair of dikes out of my tool box and cut the dang thing off. A little extra twist at the end got my point across to the Mrs.'s that some of this garbage is well...garbage.

I'm sorry to hear about your wife's bad experience with an acupuncturist, but not with acupuncture. I don't know who she went to for this Tx, but what you are describing sounds like some unlicensed quaktor practicing in the dark basement of Chinatown. I went to Tri-State College of Acupuncture in NYC. There were at least 5 DCs in my class, with well established practices in NY/NJ. I don't want to go into too many details, but you don't know what you don't know. Believe me acupuncture works even on most sceptical ppl. Not all of it is "spiritual,energetic" balancing of Qi. There is a real myofascial stuff, trigger points release, lots of things were taught based on the concepts of French manual/osteopathic work. One of the main textbooks used in my Acu school is "Myofascial pain and dysfunction" by Dr. Janet Travell (a personal doc of JFK, no less).These books are very often referenced by anasthesiologists, neuro, PMR, DCs, many non-physician body and mind workers, and basically any professionals who understand the concept of organ neurosis.
Anyway, Good Luck. I hope you guys will have a better experience next time

 

[zenman]

I'm sorry to hear about your wife's bad experience with an acupuncturist, but not with acupuncture. I don't know who she went to for this Tx, but what you are describing sounds like some unlicensed quaktor practicing in the dark basement of Chinatown. I went to Tri-State College of Acupuncture in NYC. There were at least 5 DCs in my class, with well established practices in NY/NJ. I don't want to go into too many details, but you don't know what you don't know. Believe me acupuncture works even on most sceptical ppl. Not all of it is "spiritual,energetic" balancing of Qi. There is a real myofascial stuff, trigger points release, lots of things were taught based on the concepts of French manual/osteopathic work. One of the main textbooks used in my Acu school is "Myofascial pain and dysfunction" by Dr. Janet Travell (a personal doc of JFK, no less).These books are very often referenced by anasthesiologists, neuro, PMR, DCs, many non-physician body and mind workers, and basically any professionals who understand the concept of organ neurosis.
Anyway, Good Luck. I hope you guys will have a better experience next time

You are right again. So many people laugh at some "ancient" modalities without realizing some have now been "rediscovered" and renamed as "modern" therapies, lol!

At one time I had a hell of a case of tennis and golfer's elbow in both arms for a year. Nothing was working. I was even a patient at the student clinic at an acupunture school. I taught Zen Shiatsu there so was "volunteering" a lot for the clinic when I wasn't busy. A Korean guy got ahold of me once and knocked out the pain in my left elbow in one session and the other arm in one more session. It has never returned. Turns out the guy was family trained and was going through school in the states in order to pass the US exams. My orthopedic surgeon said the only thing left from her toolkit was surgery. Am I a happy fellow?

A vet in MS was treating our dog with acupuncture for some skin problems. I went along with my wife cause I wanted to see how animals reacted to needles. The vet said he was going to use some "calming" points first. I wished I had bought my video cam because my dog got the heavy eyes and as much as he tried to stay awake, he zonked right out. The vet then stuck in more needles. After awhile Reggie woke up and just wondered around the vets office. Two treatments was all it took. I asked my dog if he thought there was a chance of a placebo effect but he didn't know what I was talking about!

 

[billydoc]

You are right again. So many people laugh at some "ancient" modalities without realizing some have now been "rediscovered" and renamed as "modern" therapies, lol!

At one time I had a hell of a case of tennis and golfer's elbow in both arms for a year. Nothing was working. I was even a patient at the student clinic at an acupunture school. I taught Zen Shiatsu there so was "volunteering" a lot for the clinic when I wasn't busy. A Korean guy got ahold of me once and knocked out the pain in my left elbow in one session and the other arm in one more session. It has never returned. Turns out the guy was family trained and was going through school in the states in order to pass the US exams. My orthopedic surgeon said the only thing left from her toolkit was surgery. Am I a happy fellow?

A vet in MS was treating our dog with acupuncture for some skin problems. I went along with my wife cause I wanted to see how animals reacted to needles. The vet said he was going to use some "calming" points first. I wished I had bought my video cam because my dog got the heavy eyes and as much as he tried to stay awake, he zonked right out. The vet then stuck in more needles. After awhile Reggie woke up and just wondered around the vets office. Two treatments was all it took. I asked my dog if he thought there was a chance of a placebo effect but he didn't know what I was talking about!

Hey Zenman!
Good to hear from you again .
It's unbelievable how many ppl are talking about things they have not done, or seen personally .Somehow on these particular forum the more a$$ kissing of MD/DO the marrier . I work with these guys (doctors) every day. I get referrals from some top players in the game (ortho/neuro) For the most part, honest G-d, I have yet to see or hear such BS fest as is going on on this board. What a crapload of misinformation. I guess it's the infiriority complex...trying to put down, demean, and degrade other professions to somehow "elevate" your own. For my Master's project I had a guy with quite an advance Parkinson's, and a whole bunch of other comorbidities. I've Tx'd with Japanese style (Master Nagano and Master Manaka) acupuncture. I was curated by the visiting professor who is practicing in that realm. This patient showed marked improvement in both his physical symptoms control, as well as overall well-being. I never sugguested something stupid like...well...since you are doing so well now, let's stop your meds,and we'll treat you with acupuncture and naturapathy only. Why to some of you, bunker mentality locksteppers, it's mutually exclussive? Why can't they peacefully co-exists... what's good for your patients not your stupid overexagerated Egos?
Anyway don't get me started on this one. We should always remember:
It's not about us (how great we are or what profession we are practicing), it's about them, the patients.
Good night everybody

 

[FoughtFyr]

Hey Zenman!
Good to hear from you again .
It's unbelievable how many ppl are talking about things they have not done, or seen personally .Somehow on these particular forum the more a$$ kissing of MD/DO the marrier . I work with these guys (doctors) every day. I get referrals from some top players in the game (ortho/neuro) For the most part, honest G-d, I have yet to see or hear such BS fest as is going on on this board. What a crapload of misinformation. I guess it's the infiriority complex...trying to put down, demean, and degrade other professions to somehow "elevate" your own. For my Master's project I had a guy with quite an advance Parkinson's, and a whole bunch of other comorbidities. I've Tx'd with Japanese style (Master Nagano and Master Manaka) acupuncture. I was curated by the visiting professor who is practicing in that realm. This patient showed marked improvement in both his physical symptoms control, as well as overall well-being. I never sugguested something stupid like...well...since you are doing so well now, let's stop your meds,and we'll treat you with acupuncture and naturapathy only. Why to some of you, bunker mentality locksteppers, it's mutually exclussive? Why can't they peacefully co-exists... what's good for your patients not your stupid overexagerated Egos?
Anyway don't get me started on this one. We should always remember:
It's not about us (how great we are or what profession we are practicing), it's about them, the patients.
Good night everybody

As an EM resident, and well known "skeptic" in this forum, I will happily agree with you regarding acupunture. We have practitioners at the academic institution where I work, and I have seen it work wonders, especially with GI patients.

- H

 

[billydoc]

As a Mayo Clinic resident, and well known "skeptic" in this forum, I will happily agree with you regarding acupunture. We have practitioners here, and I have seen it work wonders, especially with GI patients.

- H

Yup. the GI folks are the regulars in my office too. Anything from GERD to IBS, UC and Chron's, ulcers and gastritis too. To be honest with you, I don't know any conditions which couldn'be addressed, at least in part, with acupuncture. The degree of success is hard to predict. But so is in conventional medicine. Thinking that acupuncture is some kind of panacea is ideotic, but so isn't Western medicine.The problem with incorporating acupuncture into main stream is that,for the most part, it's not billable expance. When somebody says it's not generally accepted, what they usually mean is "I can't get paid for it".Most conditions where insurance will pay for it is assosiated with some kind of acute or chronic pain, musculo-sceletal problems, personal injury/no fault. Thus a problem for a broader use. But that's not necessarily a bad thing for it. I love my "cash and carry" business options. So "Mr. Medicare"...the Heck with you. Keep denying that acupuncture coverage

Have a good one everybody

 

[PublicHealth]

As a Mayo Clinic resident, and well known "skeptic" in this forum, I will happily agree with you regarding acupunture. We have practitioners here, and I have seen it work wonders, especially with GI patients.

- H

So if Mayo employs a certain type of healthcare practitioner, it's OK in your book. How elitist!

Provide me with hard science supporting acupuncture. I'm not talking about clinical trials -- there are plenty of those -- but studies showing how acupuncture actually works. I can assure you that this literature is as (to use our esteemed president's favorite adjective) "fuzzy" as the chiropractic literature.

 

[PublicHealth]

Yup. the GI folks are the regulars in my office too. Anything from GERD to IBS, UC and Chron's, ulcers and gastritis too. To be honest with you, I don't know any conditions which couldn'be addressed, at least in part, with acupuncture. The degree of success is hard to predict. But so is in conventional medicine. Thinking that acupuncture is some kind of panacea is ideotic, but so isn't Western medicine.The problem with incorporating acupuncture into main stream is that,for the most part, it's not billable expance. When somebody says it's not generally accepted, what they usually mean is "I can't get paid for it".Most conditions where insurance will pay for it is assosiated with some kind of acute or chronic pain, musculo-sceletal problems, personal injury/no fault. Thus a problem for a broader use. But that's not necessarily a bad thing for it. I love my "cash and carry" business options. So "Mr. Medicare"...the Heck with you. Keep denying that acupuncture coverage

Have a good one everybody

billy doc, what kind of doc are you?

 

[FoughtFyr]

I'm not talking about clinical trials -- there are plenty of those -- but studies showing how acupuncture actually works. I can assure you that this literature is as (to use our esteemed president's favorite adjective) "fuzzy" as the chiropractic literature.

I tell you what, as soon as you provide a good clinical trial that demonstrates chiropractic works I'll move towards acceptance of that. I agree we don't understand the mechanism - that said there are plenty of widely accepted medical modalities (anti-depressants, amniodarone in cardiac arrest, any anti-parkinson's agent, anti-seizure agents etc.) that we don't fully understand either. But well designed clinical trials demonstrate their worth. And don't forget - chiropractic is the work of a solitary man with a theory that "sounds good" but has been disproven. It does not have the collective wisdom of thousands of years of practice behind it.

To cross post from another thread:

FoughtFyr...I'm puzzled why are you so accepting of acupuncture but so skeptical about chiropractic?

A few reasons.

First (and foremost), there are extremely good data in support of acupuncture. There has never been a sound paper that demonstrates that chiropractic is better than traditional medicine (to be fair there have been good papers that show chiropractic is as effective - but not more so than traditional medicine for LBP)

Which brings me to my second issue - I have never seen an iatrogenic injury from acupuncture and I see about one a week from chiropractic. These fall into three categories - first, a direct injury from the chiropractor, these are rare, but catastrophic - usually CVAs. The second, but well described in both the literature and my personal experience, is a delay in seeking appropriate care because the patient has been convinced that the chiropractor can treat their cancer, etc. A third, and also common in both my experience and the literature, injury "caused" by chiropractors is the failure to recognize significant pathology while treating LBP (or some other presumed NMS complaint). The worst of this was the 25 yo M being treated for LBP by a chiro for 6 months before hematuria set in and he came to the ED. Renal cell carcinoma sucks.

Third, acupuncturists, in my experience, are not looking to supplant medical treatment, but rather to complement it. For example, acupuncture has been great to stimulate appetites of chemotherapy patients. None have suggested (as have chiropractors) that the chemo be foregone in favor of acupuncture. Nor do acupuncturists have national organizations that advocate against immunizations, floride, and other public health measures.

Lastly, acupuncture, like medicine, is the culmination of the experiences of generations of practitioners. Whereas D.D. Palmer is the "fountainhead" of all knowledge of chiropractic. The basis behind chiropractic has been soundly rebuked time and again. It is not some ancient art (as is acupuncture), it is the creation of a single snake oil salesman (and his son). I have great respect for the methods that have proven themselves over time in non-western cultures (especially when the results are reproducible in scientific trials). But that is NOT chiropractic!

- H

 

[billydoc]

billy doc, what kind of doc are you?

Hi I'm Billy, and a doc hopeful. I went to ROSS University in the Carib, but for some family and health reasons had to at least temproralily stop. In my other from medical school life I'm an RN with 15+ yrs of clinical, and administrative exp. I am also a Licensed Acupuncturist with M.S. in Oriental Medicine.
Hope it helps

 

[PublicHealth]

Hi I'm Billy, and a doc hopeful. I went to ROSS University in the Carib, but for some family and health reasons had to at least temproralily stop. In my other from medical school life I'm an RN with 15+ yrs of clinical, and administrative exp. I am also a Licensed Acupuncturist with M.S. in Oriental Medicine.
Hope it helps

What are the requirements to practice acupuncture? I have come across naturopathic physicians, chiropractors, allopathic and osteopathic physicians, and Master's-level practitioners. What kinds of regulations are in place to license acupuncturists? Do they vary by state?

 

[billydoc]

What are the requirements to practice acupuncture? I have come across naturopathic physicians, chiropractors, allopathic and osteopathic physicians, and Master's-level practitioners. What kinds of regulations are in place to license acupuncturists? Do they vary by state?

Most States require a certifification (National board exam) from
www.NCCAOM.org. Also reqs difer from State to State. For example I had to take a separate State Board in NJ. I found it to be pretty much a Mickey Mouse test campare to the national boards. Also for the physicians (MD/DO/DDS), and in some States even DCs and DPMs licensure to practice acupuncture is not required .They only take 100 to 300 hr (max) course, and don't even get tested on it. It's both scary and bad for business in general. I see many ppl after these "acupuncturists" who swear that "They've tried it before, and it doesn't work" Their opinions change like to "180" after I work with them. I'm not saying this to somehow flatter myself, it comes from them...my patients.
Another link is www.TSCA.edu. This is where I went to school to get my basic Acupuncture and OM education. The school did a great job, for the most part in exposing us to different styles, and schools of thought, and what's out there. The rest is your individual responsibility. I've also did several externships with Master-practitioners, particuluraly in Japanese approach.
Good Luck All

 

[PublicHealth]

Most States require a certifification (National board exam) from
www.NCCAOM.org. Also reqs difer from State to State. For example I had to take a separate State Board in NJ. I found it to be pretty much a Mickey Mouse test campare to the national boards. Also for the physicians (MD/DO/DDS), and in some States even DCs and DPMs licensure to practice acupuncture is not required .They only take 100 to 300 hr (max) course, and don't even get tested on it. It's both scary and bad for business in general. I see many ppl after these "acupuncturists" who swear that "They've tried it before, and it doesn't work" Their opinions change like to "180" after I work with them. I'm not saying this to somehow flatter myself, it comes from them...my patients.
Another link is www.TSCA.edu. This is where I went to school to get my basic Acupuncture and OM education. The school did a great job, for the most part in exposing us to different styles, and schools of thought, and what's out there. The rest is your individual responsibility. I've also did several externships with Master-practitioners, particuluraly in Japanese approach.
Good Luck All

If my dentist ever starting putting needles anywhere but in my gums or teeth, I'd freak!

What are your thoughts about this program?: http://www.iama.edu/
Many of the physicians -- MDs, DOs, and DCs -- that I have spoken to completed this program. Is it legitimate?