How Are PCP's Making Money?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
In our Lyme-heavy area, our infectious dz docs recommend we test for ehrlichosis as well as Lyme.

Oh I agree. Grew up in dutchess county ny, the Lyme dz capitol of the world (suck it lyme ct). I was just saying ehrlicosis pcr without a lyme test (perhaps it wasn't a pcr?) seemed odd to me. Those two are a wonderful doxy sensitive couple to me.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Oh I agree. Grew up in dutchess county ny, the Lyme dz capitol of the world (suck it lyme ct). I was just saying ehrlicosis pcr without a lyme test (perhaps it wasn't a pcr?) seemed odd to me. Those two are a wonderful doxy sensitive couple to me.

lol did you go to redhook or rhinebeck or ketchum or hyde park orrrrrr i dont know any other dutchess HSs? I grew up in bethlehem just north of you. Small world. But yeah I second this...either way we are picking apart something a premed wrote.

I had a pretty serious case of lyme 2 years prior to starting med school I sort of got exposed to the world of the "chronic lyme patient." Totally interesting phenomenon, and equally interesting subculture these guys have cultivated with their months and months of IV rocephin and what not. I personally believe chronic lyme represents some sort of immune reaction secondary to some sort of cross reactivity....but obviously there are a ton of people out there who think months and months of IV tx....tx for babesia etc is the answer....despite the fact that they never get better.

Sadly, growing up where we did, it seems like everyone has had lyme disease at one point or another!
 
Last edited:
I work in a hospital microbiology/virology lab and a lot of the time physicians order PCR testing for multiple viruses. Maybe it's possible for the pt to have all of them, or have symptoms indicative of all of them, but I doubt it. Here's an example of one list of orders that made me think the physician either had no idea what was going on with the pt, or there was somehow money involved.

The tests ordered were for:
hsv
vzv
cmv
adenovirus
enterovirus
ehrlichia
leptospira

Really doctor? You can't rule out any of those without an expensive test?

So how else will you rule out hsv meningitis without ordering a CSF HSV PCR? How about VZV? or CMV? Or enterovirus? What about lyme meningitis, or ehrlichiosis or leptospira? What non-expensive test can you do to rule these out (while the patient is in the ICU, intubated, and on high dose antibiotics/antivirals, and family wanting to know what's going on, why did their love one suddenly crash and become unresponsive).

*remember, diseases don't read textbooks, common diseases can present uncommonly

**are you willing to put your job and $1 million on the line and decide not to run the one of the test, so the "healthcare system" saves money. Bet right, the healthcare system saves money. Bet wrong, someone dies, and you lose your job and be liable to the family for hundreds of thousands of dollars (maybe millions depending on actual and non-economic damages). Do you think the family of the patient will be forgiving because you were trying to save the healthcare system money? Will 12 people (most non-medically trained) be as forgiving?
 
Last edited:
Members don't see this ad :)
A lot of it comes down to the insured:uninsured ratio. A physician working in a 90:10 clinic will earn far more than a physician in a 60:40 clinic; as is expected. I understand the same holds true for virtually any reimbursement specialty - emergency medicine being a big one as well. I do know PCPs who are making ~200k solely off of their practice and I'm in a rural area.

Bear in mind that the wealthiest physicians across the board typically are so because of other business interests. A lot of physicians use reimbursement as a means of jump starting other businesses - medically related or not.

I know a physician who used his medical income as start-up capital for a small chain of bistro style restaurants. He took on a managing partner he trusts greatly and he probably grosses as much from the restaurants as he does from his medical practice... and that's with little to no work involved.

Also, remember that 120-130k is a tremendous salary for many areas of the country. If you're living in San Francisco and making that much money you're going to live a relatively modest lifestyle. However, if you're in small town North Carolina you're going to be very secure. There are few people in my town who make that kind of salary.
 
I just wanted to say that I had a good time reading this thread. Please continue.
 
It was stated much more specifically and with better articulation above but... if you want to make a simple FP practice turn into a lucrative one there are two easy steps (and this applies to all business).

1) Own the means of production. By that I mean, own the lab. Nice profit
2) Appeal to women. which of course means if you're FP and you do obstetrics and gynecology you'll be greatly augmenting your income (and malpractice, but i understand the offest it worth it)

Owning a lab is a very nice profit. Our lab owner likes bringing in random girls to show it off at night sometimes. It also helps being cheap to your employees.
 
Dude, you go to the only for-profit med school in america.

I will attend RVU because my husband works in Denver. If you think I should move away from him so I can attend a different school, you're cracked. I could move across the country to go to LECOM, and while it has NPO status, that does NOT mean they aren't out to rake in every dollar they can. LECOM has to 'rent' the land the building sits on from the BOD, and the owners get a crapload of money doing this. That doesn't sound so much like an NPO. They also own (in Bradenton) the new apartment complex across the street, "lost creek"... sooo, don't try to make RVU the bad guy when LECOM does exactly the same thing... under the guise of NPO
 
I will attend RVU because my husband works in Denver. If you think I should move away from him so I can attend a different school, you're cracked. I could move across the country to go to LECOM, and while it has NPO status, that does NOT mean they aren't out to rake in every dollar they can. LECOM has to 'rent' the land the building sits on from the BOD, and the owners get a crapload of money doing this. That doesn't sound so much like an NPO. They also own (in Bradenton) the new apartment complex across the street, "lost creek"... sooo, don't try to make RVU the bad guy when LECOM does exactly the same thing... under the guise of NPO

And this thought process is EXACTLY what is wrong with US medicine

Just pointing out the inconsistency of someone railing againt 'business as usual medical profiteering' who is wholeheartedly supporting it by going to the only for-profit medical school in America. Hypocrite much? Good going.
 
Here's a timely article from today's news:
http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/05/smallbusiness/doctors_broke/
Doctors going broke
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Doctors in America are harboring an embarrassing secret: Many of them are going broke. This quiet reality, which is spreading nationwide, is claiming a wide range of casualties, including family physicians, cardiologists and oncologists...
 
Just pointing out the inconsistency of someone railing againt 'business as usual medical profiteering' who is wholeheartedly supporting it by going to the only for-profit medical school in America. Hypocrite much? Good going.

So you are saying my husband should give up a high paying job to move across the country with me to have NO income for 4 years to avoid RVU? Or are you saying that I should move across the country and be separated from my husband to avoid RVU? Either of those options are stupid, and you SHOULD be smart enough to see that, if not, please turn in your license.

For the record did I say I agreed with their status? No, what I have is very hard choices, I either pick the FP school and stay with my husband, or I MOVE across the country just so YOU think I am not a hypocrite? Since you haven't offered up where you went to school, I'll continue to assume it wasn't MSU, OSU or TCOM, the only state run DO schools that actually are fine barely breaking even. The rest of the DO schools out there are looking to make money, whether or not their profit status says so.

And with that, please put me on your ignore list.
 
Here's a timely article from today's news:
http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/05/smallbusiness/doctors_broke/
Doctors going broke
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Doctors in America are harboring an embarrassing secret: Many of them are going broke. This quiet reality, which is spreading nationwide, is claiming a wide range of casualties, including family physicians, cardiologists and oncologists...

That is sad, but it is not surprising...
 
Armchair docs smh
It's easy to say what you will and won't do when your butt is not on the line.
 
So you are saying my husband should give up a high paying job to move across the country with me to have NO income for 4 years to avoid RVU? Or are you saying that I should move across the country and be separated from my husband to avoid RVU? Either of those options are stupid, and you SHOULD be smart enough to see that, if not, please turn in your license.

For the record did I say I agreed with their status? No, what I have is very hard choices, I either pick the FP school and stay with my husband, or I MOVE across the country just so YOU think I am not a hypocrite? Since you haven't offered up where you went to school, I'll continue to assume it wasn't MSU, OSU or TCOM, the only state run DO schools that actually are fine barely breaking even. The rest of the DO schools out there are looking to make money, whether or not their profit status says so.

And with that, please put me on your ignore list.

Stop being a hypocrite. Stop pointing out 'the business of medicine' that you obviously have no clue about, much less the actual practice of medicine itself.

You rail against profiteering in medicine and give examples that are actually sound medical practice, whereas your proffered suggestions to alternative treatment are either outright dangerous to the patient or unfounded in medical practice.

Let me spell it out for you sister, of which many people have tried to tell you but you have not yet figured out:

You don't have a clue about medicine. You speak out of turn and without knowledge. Continue with this attitude in real life and see how "rocky" school will actually be. Humble yourself.

You are a hypocrite for complaining about profiteering in medicine yet plan on attending the only for-profit med school in the US. You are directly reinforcing and supporting an institutional practice, i.e., for-profit medical school, that has not been seen on these shores since Flexner. You are supporting what you actively criticise. Your education is merely a byproduct of an financier's investment, not the end-product. Shame on you.

Your excuses for not wanting to move elsewhere, assuming you got into any other school, will fall flat four years from now when you realize that perhaps a more established school in a different location would have allowed you to either match in a specialty that you desired, in a location that you desired, or match if at all.

Good luck.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Tkim, from this point, on, put me on your ignore list.
 
Tkim, from this point, on, put me on your ignore list.

Ah, you can't really make me do that. Of course, it would be simpler for you if I simply ignored all the hypocritical and obviously wrong things you post. Every time you post something wrong, I'm going to call you on it. Count on it.

And next time you want to say something to me, do it publically, not by PM. Thanks.

I'm curious, why your status is now 'attending'? Jumping the gun a bit, no, since you've yet to finish residency, much less matriculate?

attending.jpg
 
Last edited:
Come now, children. This is argument for the sake of arguing. Moving right along!
 
Come now, children. This is argument for the sake of arguing. Moving right along!

Not really ... son. I've pointed the inconsistency of her position - the supposed anger at profiteering in medicine yet at the same time defending attending a for-profit school because her husband doesn't want to leave a good-paying job.

Seems that you can be angry at an entity trying to turn a profit but it's perfectly okay to support a money-making venture if you don't want to move from where you currently live and have a good job.

I understand perfectly if that that's the rationale and it makes perfect sense ... until you rage on about how you disapprove on people making more money from you under the guise of medicine.

Or the bit about simply poking the face and treating with antibiotics without further diagnostics. Sounds like a recipe for an adverse event and malpractice. But when called on it, nothing.
 
And now by PM, she has threatened to reveal my personal info. TOS violation reported.

No, I said you linked your real FB account to your SDN account and that I KNOW your personal information, I never said I'd reveal it... It is however available for anyone to see because you willingly linked your accounts...
 
Sounds like a threat to me. We'll let the mods decide.

You do that...

Meanwhile, back at the ranch

Munchyman= remove health insurance from the mix? remove high overhead from admin? hard to say...
 
This was a good thread. Now I'm bored.
 
I will say that I agree with one side more than the other...
 
Clearly a good thread turned into an ego-sizing contest. You're both at fault. There was no reason to dilute this thread with your bicker - PM was the appropriate means for attacks (justified or not) at one another. It did nothing to add to this thread and, in reality, actions such as those harm the entire SDN community.

In this case, it ruined what was an otherwise intelligent thread among intelligent people.

My opinion... worth price paid.
 
Very wrong these days. Per USPSTF.

I have no clue if this still goes on. This was like 5 years ago when I worked there...and im pretty sure that was the prior recommendation. Either way PSAs (at least in that lab) arent a big money maker. Its an immunochem based test and those reagents are HELLA expensive.
 
Clearly a good thread turned into an ego-sizing contest. You're both at fault. There was no reason to dilute this thread with your bicker - PM was the appropriate means for attacks (justified or not) at one another. It did nothing to add to this thread and, in reality, actions such as those harm the entire SDN community.

In this case, it ruined what was an otherwise intelligent thread among intelligent people.

My opinion... worth price paid.

I disagree. Allowing inconsistent stances and dangerous opinions on medical treatment to go unchallenged is never a good thing. Did I 'pull rank' as an attending? No. Several other posters also further along in medical training posted the dangerous medical opinion she offered.

My pointing out the inconsistency of her stance against medical profiteering in the face of attending a for-profit school was met with threatening PMs to release my personal info. That sounds like a person unwilling to discuss the issue at hand and instead launch a truly personal attack.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but the attitude of premeds and others without medical training railing against accepted medical practice because they think there is simply a profit motive in that practice must be corrected. Leaving such an open public opinion unchallenged may reinforce and perpetuate it amongst other people who might believe it to be true.
 
I disagree. Allowing inconsistent stances and dangerous opinions on medical treatment to go unchallenged is never a good thing. Did I 'pull rank' as an attending? No. Several other posters also further along in medical training posted the dangerous medical opinion she offered.

My pointing out the inconsistency of her stance against medical profiteering in the face of attending a for-profit school was met with threatening PMs to release my personal info. That sounds like a person unwilling to discuss the issue at hand and instead launch a truly personal attack.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but the attitude of premeds and others without medical training railing against accepted medical practice because they think there is simply a profit motive in that practice must be corrected. Leaving such an open public opinion unchallenged may reinforce and perpetuate it amongst other people who might believe it to be true.

Staying out of your fight but :thumbup:

Anyone who read the comments on the recent CNN article about docs going broke should realize how damaging it is to our profession to let such ideas go unchecked.
 
Staying out of your fight but :thumbup:

Anyone who read the comments on the recent CNN article about docs going broke should realize how damaging it is to our profession to let such ideas go unchecked.

It is simply amazing the amount of people who think that every lab test or imaging I order directly profits me. Perhaps a PCP with in-house lab can do that, and when I was moonlighting for an urgent, we had a limited POC lab and plain XR capability. This may have increased profits for the urgent care, but it also expanded the ability of urgent care to diagnose and treat a wider variety of illness. I wouldn't work at an urgent care without urine preg, urine/micro, rapid strep, cbc, bmp avail POC. And no x-ray? Might as well send to the ER and bypass us entirely.

In the ER I am obligated to see and treat every patient regardless of ability to pay. It's one of the reasons I went into EM. If you're sick, I want to treat you. Don't care if you can't pay. I don't check insurance coverage before I see you, but I ask afterwards to determine if you can afford a more expensive prescription or something cheaper and generic that may work but maybe not as well. That's good medicine. But I suppose the ignorant amongst us will accuse me of prescribing the more expensive non-generic in order to get a 'kick-back'. As if.

As for holding off on expensive tests or imaging for people who can't afford it. That in effect creates a two-tier system of medicine and would set a dangerous precedent with the risk of higher number of bad outcomes in people without insurance.

My practice of medicine should not be dictated by what a person can afford - especially in emergency medicine. If I think a patient needs the test, they should get it, regardless of ability to pay. That's the way it should be.
 
It is simply amazing the amount of people who think that every lab test or imaging I order directly profits me. Perhaps a PCP with in-house lab can do that, and when I was moonlighting for an urgent, we had a limited POC lab and plain XR capability. This may have increased profits for the urgent care, but it also expanded the ability of urgent care to diagnose and treat a wider variety of illness. I wouldn't work at an urgent care without urine preg, urine/micro, rapid strep, cbc, bmp avail POC. And no x-ray? Might as well send to the ER and bypass us entirely.

In the ER I am obligated to see and treat every patient regardless of ability to pay. It's one of the reasons I went into EM. If you're sick, I want to treat you. Don't care if you can't pay. I don't check insurance coverage before I see you, but I ask afterwards to determine if you can afford a more expensive prescription or something cheaper and generic that may work but maybe not as well. That's good medicine. But I suppose the ignorant amongst us will accuse me of prescribing the more expensive non-generic in order to get a 'kick-back'. As if.

As for holding off on expensive tests or imaging for people who can't afford it. That in effect creates a two-tier system of medicine and would set a dangerous precedent with the risk of higher number of bad outcomes in people without insurance.

My practice of medicine should not be dictated by what a person can afford - especially in emergency medicine. If I think a patient needs the test, they should get it, regardless of ability to pay. That's the way it should be.

Again agreed. I started reading those comments and had to stop because I was getting to the point that I wanted to comment on every single post (not to mention I was getting pretty pissed). Its really too bad so many misconceptions are flying around. Ive heard this "doctors get a kickback from pharma/labs" crap constantly.
 
Again agreed. I started reading those comments and had to stop because I was getting to the point that I wanted to comment on every single post (not to mention I was getting pretty pissed). Its really too bad so many misconceptions are flying around. Ive heard this "doctors get a kickback from pharma/labs" crap constantly.

I agree as well...but it is difficult to understand such issues as a pre-med, in her defense. I look back to those days and realize how clueless I was as to how things work. I will probably look back to where I am now when I am a resident/attending and think the same thing.
 
On average, how many patients a day does a PCP see? And what is the total reimbursement the practice receives (copay + insurance) for a routine patient visit. From my insurance statements it seems the total is around $45 per visit.
 
On average, how many patients a day does a PCP see? And what is the total reimbursement the practice receives (copay + insurance) for a routine patient visit. From my insurance statements it seems the total is around $45 per visit.

From what I have seen and heard, most PCP's see 22-28 pts/day. However, the nurse of the physician I currently shadow has told me that at her previous job, the two docs who ran the clinic saw an average 100 pts/day, 50 patients per physician. Therefore, I guess the number of patients seen in any given day really depends on the physician's business mentality and medical philosophy. Although I think seeing only 22 patients/day is inefficient, going through 50 a day makes me question the quality of care.

In regards to reimbursement, as I have stated in the first post, medicare pays ~$25 per established/follow-up patient. Perhaps someone else could comment on how much other types of insurance pay.
 
On average, how many patients a day does a PCP see? And what is the total reimbursement the practice receives (copay + insurance) for a routine patient visit. From my insurance statements it seems the total is around $45 per visit.

That's a complicated question, and since I'm not a PCP I'm less familiar with how an office-based practice works.

What I can tell you, however, is that physicians are paid by relative value units (RVU). This is a dollar per unit value that is set by the government. So, if a routine office visit is set at 2 RVUs, and the RVU is set at $35, then payment for that visit is $70. Medicare pays at the RVU set by the government, while private insurance may pay 1.0-1.5 times that. But usually what Medicare pays sets the tone for all other payments.

It may not make sense to pay this way, but the government sets the number of RVU's per visit and procedure, instead of the amount of time spent, given the complexity of the visit and/or procedure performed.

For example cutting open and draining an abscess, which is considered a minor surgical procedure takes about 15-30 mins start to finish, same as a routine office visit, but is billed at 6 RVU's or $210. Same amount of time, $140 difference.

This is sort of the crux of the primary care versus specialist disparity in payment. Procedure-heavy specialties do get paid very well because procedures usually are high RVU generators, and the internist who manages very complex patients don't get paid nearly as well although they spend a lot of time and energy managing their patients.

Make sense?
 
I agree as well...but it is difficult to understand such issues as a pre-med, in her defense. I look back to those days and realize how clueless I was as to how things work. I will probably look back to where I am now when I am a resident/attending and think the same thing.

Of course. I recall those days well. I mean one would never think that facial veins drain into the cavernous sinus. Thats the best part of med school for me those "really??? wtf never would have thought that" moments.

Sadly the public thinks the same way....on an even more clueless level. A lot of anger stems from jealousy....and you can tell that most of those posters are jealous for one reason or another. Jealous of the income, jealous of the prestige, jealous that perhaps they chose a pathway in life where they dont have the earning potential a physician does. They that jealousy into anger and direct it at doctors for having high paying jobs....and make those docs the bad guy for having earning potential they dont have. Its just sad that they refuse to acknowledge all the hard work we put in, all the years of our lives gone, all the debt we incur.
 
Clearly a good thread turned into an ego-sizing contest. You're both at fault. There was no reason to dilute this thread with your bicker - PM was the appropriate means for attacks (justified or not) at one another. It did nothing to add to this thread and, in reality, actions such as those harm the entire SDN community.

In this case, it ruined what was an otherwise intelligent thread among intelligent people.

My opinion... worth price paid.

I disagree. Allowing inconsistent stances and dangerous opinions on medical treatment to go unchallenged is never a good thing. Did I 'pull rank' as an attending? No. Several other posters also further along in medical training posted the dangerous medical opinion she offered.

My pointing out the inconsistency of her stance against medical profiteering in the face of attending a for-profit school was met with threatening PMs to release my personal info. That sounds like a person unwilling to discuss the issue at hand and instead launch a truly personal attack.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but the attitude of premeds and others without medical training railing against accepted medical practice because they think there is simply a profit motive in that practice must be corrected. Leaving such an open public opinion unchallenged may reinforce and perpetuate it amongst other people who might believe it to be true.
I agree with you tkim

There was absolutely no "my gun is bigger than yours" going on. One poster (with experience on the topic far beyond that of a premed) was offering up knowledge and correcting some erroneous info. If anything we need more docs that offer up this type of information.
 
Thanks for your responses, Ibn and tkim. (MultiQ would not cooporate) I was doing a back of the envelope calculation based on averages. Can you tell me if it makes sense.

FOR A PCP:
Time per patient visit = 15 minutes.
Patients per day = 40 (8h / 15 min)
Reimbursement per patient = $42.50 (based on copay of $20 and insurance/medicare of $22.50)
Revenue per year = $42.50 x 40 patients per day x 250 working days per year (based on 50 weeks and 5 days a week)
Revenue per year = $425,000
Overhead = $212,500 (Based on 50% of revenue, which is what my uncle who is a PCP esmitated)
Therefore PCP's annual income = $212,500

Does this make sense (on average)?
 
Thanks for your responses, Ibn and tkim. (MultiQ would not cooporate) I was doing a back of the envelope calculation based on averages. Can you tell me if it makes sense.

FOR A PCP:
Time per patient visit = 15 minutes.
Patients per day = 40 (8h / 15 min)
Reimbursement per patient = $42.50 (based on copay of $20 and insurance/medicare of $22.50)
Revenue per year = $42.50 x 40 patients per day x 250 working days per year (based on 50 weeks and 5 days a week)
Revenue per year = $425,000
Overhead = $212,500 (Based on 50% of revenue, which is what my uncle who is a PCP esmitated)
Therefore PCP's annual income = $212,500

Does this make sense (on average)?

Close - that's assuming that you get reimbursed for every visit (and none of your visits are downcoded or rejected when you submit your claims).

Some insurance will pay more. Others less. That's why your payor-mix is important in determining income. But that 8 hr day is without lunch, and you usually spend a few extra hours catching up on your charts/paperwork, as well as returning phone calls from patients who call the office, filing out forms (prior authorizations, social security disability forms, workman comps forms, etc), signing off on prescription refills request from patients/pharmacies, etc.

To make it more interesting since a lot of you guys have heard doctors complain about how a medicare cut (that is averted every year by congress) is bad for private small family practice. Let's use the above numbers, but with the 27.4% cut in medicare (that is proposed unless congress halts it)

FOR A PCP:
Time per patient visit = 15 minutes.
Patients per day = 40 (8h / 15 min)
Reimbursement per patient = $42.50 $30.85 (27.4% cut)
Revenue per year = $30.85 x 40 patients per day x 250 working days per year (based on 50 weeks and 5 days a week)
Revenue per year = $308,500
Overhead = $212,500 (this doesn't change - with rent, insurnace premiums, utilities, staff salaries - more than likely this will go up but assume that your overhead didn't go up)
Therefore PCP's NEW annual income after 27.4% Medicare cut = $96,000

So even though medicare cut 27.4%, your income certainly didn't drop by 27.4%. And that is why the AMA, the AOA, all the specialty colleges, and even the AARP lobbies congress every year to either delay, or fix the flawed Medicare Sustained Grown Rate Formula (and why physicians threaten to drop medicare if the cut goes through)
 
I haven't investigated this entirely so you docs out probably have the best grip on this. Most of these previous calculations are straight up pt. visits and what you get for that. How much more can be factored in for a PCP that is doing a fair amount of in-office procedures: ingrown toe nails, skin tag removals, vasectomies, suturing every now and then when the opportunity presents itself, and other office procedures like that? Better said, how much "extra" do these types of procedures bring in? Also, how does delivering babies factor in for PCP's that do that? Is there a pay the doc gets or does the hospital take it out of what the patient pays the hospital since youre doing the delivery there?
 
Top