How Being a Doctor Became the Most Miserable Profession

Started by armybound
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DermViser said:
You are truly nuts, if you think I have ever said that I was in General Surgery. If you believe that, you might want to add hallucinations and delusions to your panic attack disorder.
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Hey man, I'm sorry. I shouldn't keep provoking you. You wrote offensively, IMO, so I returned fire. If your initial intention wasn't to offend, I'm sorry about reading it as such. And I'm sorry how high this escalated.

Let's let the thread try to get back on course. You win. (not sarcasm)
 
DermViser said:
You are truly nuts, if you think I have ever said that I was in General Surgery. If you believe that, you might want to add hallucinations and delusions to your panic attack disorder.
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Sorry to interrupt your low-diff smackdown on premeds, but what is that in your avatar? Just curious.
 
ECkayak said:
Here are a couple numbers for you type12, since you're really into those calculations:

200k debt with 6.7% interest = 13400 in interest per year, which equals 1117 PER MONTH

Resident salary of 50k (pre taxes mind you) gets you 4167 per month (in reality, lower after taxes)

That means that you only have 3050 left per month for EVERY OTHER EXPENSE, which is 36,6000 (again, in reality, this number is much lower after taxes).

This is based on 200k debt (I have nearly 100k more) and only paying back interest on the loans, nevermind the actual loans themselves.
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@type12 doesn't have the basic sense to realize that at the age by the time you finish medical school and residency, you will have more expenses than just student loans to pay off.
 
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type12 said:
Hey man, I'm sorry. I shouldn't keep provoking you. You wrote offensively, IMO, so I returned fire. If your initial intention wasn't to offend, I'm sorry about reading it as such. And I'm sorry how high this escalated.

Let's let the thread try to get back on course. You win. (not sarcasm)
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I wonder whether you would return fire in real life... especially during clinical years :thinking:
 
@DermViser Please ignore this nonsense.
@type12 You need to STOP NOW. You're being very disrespectful and you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
 
type12 said:
No one is arguing 200k is larger than 40k. I just posited that the 2% difference on that 200k loan (6.7%) and a 200k mortgage (4.7%) on a house is not sufficient a difference to say the debt is impossible for a 50k resident, but manageable for a 50k salaryman. And this is even before the tax breaks and benefits.
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You aren't eligible for student loand interest reductions after your income crosses a certain threshold. And that extra 2% on my 400k of loans will absolutely matter. That's an extra 8k a year in accrued interest which must be paid with after-tax dollars, hardly peanuts. My monthly payment without PAYE would be $2,647, while my monthly salary would be $3,398. While I would be making so little that I would qualify for student loan interest deductions, that sure as hell won't help me the rest of the year while I'm struggling to get by on $751 per month.
 
Espadaleader said:
@DermViser Please ignore this nonsense.
@type12 You need to STOP NOW. You're being very disrespectful and you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
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You're right, I should. It's just amazing to me that premeds (definitely not all) seem to live in this enclosed bubble when it comes to expenses and finances to where they think that their six figure student loan debt is no problem, bc that's the only expense they will have to take care of. They don't realize that at the age they will be finishing, they will have many OTHER expenses they'll have to deal with ALONG WITH their school loan debt.
 
type12 said:
Hey man, I'm sorry. I shouldn't keep provoking you. You wrote offensively, IMO, so I returned fire. If your initial intention wasn't to offend, I'm sorry about reading it as such. And I'm sorry how high this escalated.

Let's let the thread try to get back on course. You win. (not sarcasm)
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Apology accepted. Thank you. I apologize if you were offended.
 
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I certainly don't have an understanding of what a med student, resident, or attending deal with, but I'll give my current experience so others can compare.

I work as a cardiovascular tech at teaching hospital. Job entails exercise tolerance tests, EKGs, and scanning holters.
I get plenty of time to talk with patients about why they are having the test done, what they will be doing, and what the purpose of the test is. I never feel rushed, but I'm a fairly efficient person anyway.
There isn't any major paperwork concerned with my job. If a patient has serious EKG changes during an ETT or while wearing holter; I document it, I show it to a cardiologist and they have to take responsibility for it or say patient is fine to go.

I'm 23 and graduated in 2013 with 16k debt from state school. Will make about 50k/yr if you add taking a weekend call or two per month to base hourly salary. Work 40 hours/wk, once in a while I'll get to leave 30 mins early if no tests to do, have a 403B that hospital contributes to. There isn't much upward mobility career wise. Even after less than a year on the job I'm feeling my capabilities will be surpassing my role soon.

When I want time off I put in request with supervisor, and as long as other technicians havent already requested off the time/I have earned time to cover it; usually no worries about getting it off. I just took few days off to visit a friend still at school in a different city. Will take time off to rent a beach house with friends next month. Planning a trip out of the country for a family members wedding. Learned to snowboard this winter, go rock climbing about once a month, plenty of time to date.

My job isn't stress free, there is always worry when you're putting at risk patients on a treadmill to try induce ischemia. It is a far cry from what physicians go through though.

TL;DR
Plenty of time with patients, and no stress of paperwork. When a case does become severe or I have a question, I take it to a physician to handle. Good pay (in my opinion for just out of school with BS), 40 hours/wk and they try avoid having me put in too much OT, and time off when I ask/accommodate me making time for life.
But... I know down the road this won't be enough. I will want more responsibility in caring for the patient as a whole, even if it means I'll have less physical time to see them. Which is big contributing factor in why I would go back to suffer through school lol.

So you can compare my experience that to debt/salary, work schedule of becoming physician.
 
It's annoying to read arguments from pseudointellectuals who argue just to argue and waste everyone's time by complaining (incorrectly) about logical fallacies.
 
Myrddin said:
TL;DR
Plenty of time with patients, and no stress of paperwork. When a case does become severe or I have a question, I take it to a physician to handle. Good pay (in my opinion for just out of school with BS), 40 hours/wk and they try avoid having me put in too much OT, and time off when I ask/accommodate me making time for life.
But... I know down the road this won't be enough. I will want more responsibility in caring for the patient as a whole, even if it means I'll have less physical time to see them. Which is big contributing factor in why I would go back to suffer through school lol.

So you can compare my experience that to debt/salary, work schedule of becoming physician.
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Awesome first post Myrddin! I agree the sacrifices are totally worth it. Thanks for bringing the thread back on track, unlike others who may just want to express their intellectual insecurities as attacks on others, which is totally annoying..
 
Are there any other high-paying salaries people have worked on first hand that they would say are more "miserable" than Physician?
 
smq123 said:
The hardest transition for me, from med student to attending, was realizing just how little you matter, even as a physician, particularly if you work for a large corporation, or if you work in a non-physician owned practice. They value you for the income you generate, but any MD with the same credentials and similar work ethic would generate the same amount of income. You, as an individual, do not matter. What that means is that the second you become a liability (a VIP complains about you, because you didn't kiss their ass enough, a bad patient outcome that you couldn't avoid happens), they'll drop you like a hot rock. I know a lot of physicians who have been told, to their faces, by hospital administration, that they are expendible and easily replaceable.

The insurance companies don't care who you are as a physician either. Your clinical experience means nothing to them - you're another faceless MD/DO who ordered another expensive test for another faceless patient that this insurance company does not want to pay for.
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I'm pre-med, so I can't comment on how you feel as a physician, but I can tell you that this sentiment is hardly unique to medicine. Engineers are expendable to the businessmen of large corporations, and if you work for the government, several years of analysis could be tossed on the whim of a politician with a zero training in your field. Businessmen are expendable to higher up businessmen. The only person who isn't expendable is the guy who doesn't have anyone to tell him he is. There are some really obscure niche people, but even they become useless once their specific area is no longer relevant. You can argue that engineers/businessmen keep their jobs based on project outcomes, but I'll tell you from first hand experience that credit for good outcomes is thrown around so violently that no one will ever know that you were the one who did this or that to make the company money. You will, however, be held accountable for any mistakes, and being fired means a much more difficult job search than the one physicians face.

In my experience, a good job is one that provides good financial/job security, is fairly enjoyable in your day-to-day activities (knowing that some days/aspects are always going to suck), and gives you personal satisfaction. I know many physicians who complain about these particular aspects of medicine, but I feel it is being too idealistic to think that someone is going to value the work you do based solely on patient outcomes, and that a corporation is going to evaluate you holistically when something goes wrong. I think this stems from the fact that doctors often go through their training in a bubble of sorts, moving from one academic institution to the next, and having people evaluate them based on merit, achievement, and even sensitivity/demeanor. At the end of the day, any job at any institution that stays afloat based on the influx of money for services (as opposed to grants or donations) will only care about your effect on the bottom line. As long as you are in the workforce you will never be a precious and unique snowflake. You will be a gear in the grinding machine. Don't expect to be appreciated no matter how much torque you're pushing out, just expect to be compensated fairly, which I would say you are. If you want people to sit around extolling your worth and virtues, go back to school.
 
EngineerPreMD said:
IAs long as you are in the workforce you will never be a precious and unique snowflake. You will be a gear in the grinding machine. Don't expect to be appreciated no matter how much torque you're pushing out, just expect to be compensated fairly, which I would say you are. If you want people to sit around extolling your worth and virtues, go back to school.
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Spare me the lecture.

I don't, and did not, expect to be valued solely on patient outcomes. But I did not expect, and am still bothered by, times when doctors and nurses are punished or fired for doing the right thing, clinically. When they did WHAT WAS BEST for the PATIENT, and they still got punished. Or when corporate sensibilities plow over clinical priorities.

Fundamentally, no matter how much I dislike the idealistic fluff that they shove down your throat in med school, patient care really is what matters and what drives most of us. If you don't have at least some concern for patient care, no matter how much you believe that medicine is a business or that being a doctor is just a job, then you should not be a physician. Because not thinking about patient care makes you an intellectually sloppy, lazy physician at the end of the day. And what irritates me is when corporate thinking either prevents you from practicing the standard of care, or punishes you for it.

EngineerPreMD said:
I think this stems from the fact that doctors often go through their training in a bubble of sorts, moving from one academic institution to the next, and having people evaluate them based on merit, achievement, and even sensitivity/demeanor.
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If you think that medical students and residents are evaluated based on MERIT and ACHIEVEMENT, then your 3rd year rotations in med school are going to be a really really really rude awakening. I take it that you haven't read the Clinical Rotations forum much yet....
 
type12 said:
Hint: it's not the difficulty, lol. .
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LOL should only be typed by 12 year old girls. This isn't just picking on you... this is a public service announcement for all of SDN. I just can't take anyone seriously if their post includes lol or omg.
 
DermViser said:
@type12 doesn't have the basic sense to realize that at the age by the time you finish medical school and residency, you will have more expenses than just student loans to pay off.
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Depends on the person. I never want a car I can't buy with cash/a single payment (certainly never a new-off-the-lot car), a house that I own myself, etc. I don't see myself getting married. I may someday choose to have children, but that would be a conscious decision and I would always have family nearby for assistance. This isn't just naive, idealistic crap, either...I am fully aware that my priorities may change if I meet someone, especially if they have different priorities than I do and compromise has to be made, but it has worked for my parent and I would not be in any way sad if my life turned out that way. I'm also comfortable with an annual salary in the $25-30k range for a certain period of time. Anything above $30k is comfortable, for my lifestyle, for 1 or 2 people. I'm not in any way trying to say anyone else should have these priorities (and I'd appreciate it if no one sat here trying to convince me that my opinion on my comfort levels given my experiences is incorrect somehow)...but not everyone is going to have the same expenses, no matter which point of life you pick out.
 
smq123 said:
I don't, and did not, expect to be valued solely on patient outcomes. But I did not expect, and am still bothered by, times when doctors and nurses are punished or fired for doing the right thing, clinically. When they did WHAT WAS BEST for the PATIENT, and they still got punished. Or when corporate sensibilities plow over clinical priorities.
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Fair enough, and thank you for the clarification. Yes, when a doctor or nurse is fired for doing what is clinically correct, that is a damn shame, and I expect to be equally enraged when it becomes a part of my life. This is an entirely practical concern that affects the way you do your job, and it should aggravate you. What I was addressing was the idea in your last post, that you are feeling less fulfilled because you are "expendable." This is less practical and more philosophical, and my point to you was that deriving any satisfaction from how administrators perceive your value is a hopeless cause in any profession. You have to derive satisfaction from the work that you know you did. I was never able to do this as an engineer, as politics and business practices seem to dilute both your work and your intentions. You can, at least, look at the patients whose lives you've saved and improved and know you had a part in it, even if no one else, not even the patient, cares. That is something I'm extremely jealous of, and it's a big part of why I'm on this path. I am sorry for the lecture in my previous post, but I was frustrated that you didn't seem to appreciate this aspect of your job. I'm sure you do appreciate it, but that wasn't reflected before.

smq123 said:
Fundamentally [...] patient care really is what matters and what drives most of us. If you don't have at least some concern for patient care, no matter how much you believe that medicine is a business or that being a doctor is just a job, then you should not be a physician. Because not thinking about patient care makes you an intellectually sloppy, lazy physician at the end of the day. And what irritates me is when corporate thinking either prevents you from practicing the standard of care, or punishes you for it.
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I absolutely agree. I wasn't saying doctors should regard the hospital as a business place.That should be the last thing on the doctor's mind when deciding on a treatment for a patient. I was talking about managing expectations. You should expect to be rewarded for being clinically responsible, and you should expect to be protected in situations beyond your control. You should not expect to be appreciated or even fully understood by those who haven't had any of your experiences.

smq123 said:
If you think that medical students and residents are evaluated based on MERIT and ACHIEVEMENT, then your 3rd year rotations in med school are going to be a really really really rude awakening. I take it that you haven't read the Clinical Rotations forum much yet....
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I've been evaluated on an entire subjective basis since I graduated college, I think I'll manage just fine.
 
smq123 said:
I think you're misunderstanding the article. And that's ok, I would have misunderstood it as a resident, too.

The lack of free time, missing out on family moments, etc. - meh. Yes, it sucks, but (to an extent) you get used to it. And you would miss out on a lot of family moments no matter what kind of job you worked. That's certainly not unique to medicine.

The work hours are also a meh. That gets better (usually) once you're done residency. The money does, too.

The hardest transition for me, from med student to attending, was realizing just how little you matter, even as a physician, particularly if you work for a large corporation, or if you work in a non-physician owned practice. They value you for the income you generate, but any MD with the same credentials and similar work ethic would generate the same amount of income. You, as an individual, do not matter. What that means is that the second you become a liability (a VIP complains about you, because you didn't kiss their ass enough, a bad patient outcome that you couldn't avoid happens), they'll drop you like a hot rock. I know a lot of physicians who have been told, to their faces, by hospital administration, that they are expendible and easily replaceable.

The insurance companies don't care who you are as a physician either. Your clinical experience means nothing to them - you're another faceless MD/DO who ordered another expensive test for another faceless patient that this insurance company does not want to pay for.

Finally, a lot of the patients don't care either. You could be Dr. Armybound, Dr. Navybound, Dr. Whatever-bound. They value you for what you do for them, and many patients will only see you as a vending machine - tell it what you want, and out it comes. When you balk, they will get angry. Not all patients are like this, of course, but there are quite a few who do not care who you are as a person. I was taken aback by how many patients got angry that I had the audacity to *gasp* go on vacation, because it "inconvenienced them." Because I was gone, they couldn't get their disability forms, or their meds as fast as usual, or their lab results, and they took it as a personal affront that I took some time off.

Maybe I was too idealistic for too long? I don't know. I still think that the article exaggerates a lot, and I'm not miserable in my job. But, I would encourage people to go to med school only if they understood what kind of conditions they should look for in a job once they finish their training.



I might be happier, actually. Because at least I'd know that it was a useless job, and there wouldn't be this pretense that you, as a person, matter - when you actually don't. Plus, I could leave AT FIVE, instead of having 1-2 hours of paperwork to finish up that has to be done.
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Thanks for the response.

I don't think I misunderstood the article, though since I have no experience I don't think I can fully "understand" it yet. It will make a lot more sense to me once I've actually experienced it. I do think that we very quickly got off topic from the article, as the things I started talking about really have nothing to do with the article.

I have experienced a bit of the "Make me a bicycle, clown!" behavior from patients/nurses/staff, and I definitely don't like it. I get pretty offended when someone basically treats me as a prescription pad and not an intelligent person whose education and training allows him to evaluate people and make decisions. I'm sure it will only get worse as time.

For me I think your post just points out that we only know what we're currently experiencing and are pretty naive when it comes to the "next level" of training. I don't know what it's like as an attending, and I absolutely won't try to speak as if I do.
 
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NickNaylor said:
The real problem IMO is that it is literally impossible - impossible - to truly understand and comprehend what you're getting yourself into when you make the decision to commit. Having a parent as a physician may give you more insight than most, but even so you don't get the full experience. Hell, even being a M1/M2 doesn't give you much insight into what "being a doctor" is like. You start to get some of that experience as a M3, but multiple attendings have told me that you really, really don't get it until you become an attending - at which point you have an "oh, ****" moment when you realize that the buck stops with you. It is difficult to appreciate the magnitude of that responsibility until you're in it. I don't pretend to understand what that responsibility is like, but I can appreciate that it's something that will weigh you down if you take it seriously (and you should). Another contributor is the fact that your basic understanding of medicine will likely change once you get into training. I know in my own case my view of medicine and the role of physicians in healthcare has radically changed after being on the other side of the table.

I won't belabor this point because anytime this subject is brought up there are always the pre-meds that come in and say things along the lines of "lol pls look at Africa," "lol but ur still in 99th percentile income," "lol but it's still a good job." No one denies these things. What these analyses fail to take into account is the significant downsides of the career beyond the basic things: things like the long draining, the major delayed gratification, and a lot of the stresses of training that you won't appreciate until you start it.

In response to these points, you always see - and this thread is no exception - the pseudo-red herring along the lines of "but you get paid well!" And yet these people are still unhappy. What does that say? Is it a lack of perspective that a majority of physicians seem to possess? Or is it something more fundamental about the profession and the context in which medicine is practiced in the US? In speaking with many people, those without experience seem to blame the former while those with any degree of training under their belts tend to blame the latter.

I'm sure @armybound knew what he was getting himself into when he opened this can of worms, but I would only say this to those who are considering the profession: do some real soul-searching and be honest with yourself about what you're expecting from this career. Make a decision with the understanding that you are making a decision with grossly incomplete - and possibly incorrect - information and preconceptions. While the positives of being a physician will likely be in line with your expectations if not even better than what you expect, the negatives of the career will almost certainly be worse than you expect. The only person you fool when you feign interest in the profession, caring about medicine, and "loving science" is yourself. Sure, you'll get into med school and get the MD, but at the end of the day you'll end up just like the physicians discussed in this article. Even as a MS3 you can start to predict who is going to be a miserable physician. It becomes that evident.

inb4 "lol pls cry more about driving a Porsche"
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I personally acknowledge the fact that it isn't possible "to truly understand and comprehend what you're getting yourself into when you make the decision to commit [to medicine]."

What I'm trying to point out is that this needs to be considered in context with other jobs and careers. How do you weigh "long draining hours" with "constant worry about layoffs" in another sector of the economy?

How about "delayed gratification" with food insecurity for perhaps a more extreme comparison, though not an unrealistic one for around 50 million Americans now?

Or how about more mundane comparisons like "excess insurance paperwork" to "sitting in a cubicle all day."


My point is that there are going to be negative qualities about virtually any job ... so this needs to be considered in any discussion such as this. It's not like it's a choice between "no problems at all" and "the problems that come with a career in medicine."

It's more like "the pluses and minuses of a career in xyz field" versus "the pluses and minuses of a career in medicine."

Also, I don't think it's fair to dismiss the significance of liking learning, your science coursework, your volunteer experience, and having an interest in health that actually existed prior to when you began initially considering medical school. These may or may not make you happy in medicine, but I think it's certainly better to like what you're doing so far than to find it unbearable or something.
 
IMDoc607 said:
I love saving someone's life but overall the bad outweighs the good. Will I quit medicine? Hell no.....I enjoy it to much but the truth is being a doctor blows. Once you realize this you're to far in to quit. You'll see.
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Pause and second thoughts. :thinking:

Serious question: Why can't or won't doctors mobilize, like other work forces who get tired of being **** on, and fight to force the changes they need to make their work more in line with what they think they should be doing?

Is it as obvious as "we're too busy"?
Or fear of the negative repercussions of what it would looks like if Doctors started complaining and lobbying en masse?

I'd like to hear some thoughts on that.
 
Last edited:
"Will I quit medicine? Hell no.....I enjoy it to much ...

... but the truth is being a doctor blows."


I guess I don't understand the conflicting messages in this sentence.
 
WhippleWhileWeWork said:
Pause and second thoughts. :thinking:

Serious question: Why can't or won't doctors mobilize, like other work forces who get tired of being **** on, and fight to force the changes they need to make their work more in line with what they think they should be doing?

Is it as obvious as "we're too busy"?
Or fear of the negative repercussions of what it would looks like if Doctors started complaining and lobbying en masse?

I'd like to hear some thoughts on that.
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I think half the reason doctors make the salary they do is because they get **** on so much. Long hours, long and expensive training, and most of all... low numbers of training spots. Long hours are because there are a ton of sick people and not enough doctors. Training is long because let's face it, we all want someone to train for at least 7 years before they start touching our junk and giving us pills unsupervised. Salaries are high because competitive admissions (low numbers of training spots/resources) helps keep supply low and demand high. Disrupting the balance means giving up the salaries. How many attendings do you think would jump on the idea of opening up tons and tons of new med schools and training a ton more doctors to lower the workload and decrease pay when they already did their hard time to make the salary they make.
 
QuestionsAnswers said:
"Will I quit medicine? Hell no.....I enjoy it to much ...

... but the truth is being a doctor blows."

I guess I don't understand the conflicting messages in this sentence.
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It's called hypocrisy. It's rampant in this thread, and the double think demanded of the premeds is confounding.
 
type12 said:
It's called hypocrisy. It's rampant in this thread, and the double think demanded of the premeds is confounding.
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QuestionsAnswers said:
"Will I quit medicine? Hell no.....I enjoy it to much ...

... but the truth is being a doctor blows."


I guess I don't understand the conflicting messages in this sentence.
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Is it really that hard to understand? The practice of medicine is great, whereas the profession of being a doctor, the job of doctoring, if you will, is cluttered with bull****.
 
Interesting that no attending or post training physician has responded here
Medicine was a rough road till my fellowship. I started MS1 with ideals and optimism and was so cynical by the end of residency, the patient was looked upon as the enemy.
I also now reflect that I am doing quite well and medicine has fullfilled my expectations of a financially rewarding, intellectually stimulating, and secure career the likes of that I doubt any other career choices I may have tried would have been so successful
I also was fortunate to become part of an organization where the doctors are owner partners and don't have to answer to any corporate overseer. I order what I feel is needed and it is done, no question asked, no approval needed.
 
Hey NickNaylor (and everyone), What advice would you give a junior in college of "average" intelligence considering medicine? I am capable of doing pretty well in biological science classes but I am pretty weak in classes like physics (studied hard to just get a B). I also performed well in the Bio/VR section of the MCAT but got a 9 on the physical sciences. Since med school is mainly bio sciences, should I be alright?

I also agree that there is no way for us premeds to know how med school/residency/being an attending will be like. Despite this do you think it is reasonable to expect to find a place in medicine as an attending where we are able to work a predictable schedule with 50-60 hour weeks? Is it reasonable for me to expect that after residency (as long as I choose the right residency) I can have a balanced life?

Also would you guys recommend being a PA to pre-meds? Looking back now would you consider PA school more?
 
jsmith1 said:
Hey NickNaylor (and everyone), What advice would you give a junior in college of "average" intelligence considering medicine? I am capable of doing pretty well in biological science classes but I am pretty weak in classes like physics (studied hard to just get a B). I also performed well in the Bio/VR section of the MCAT but got a 9 on the physical sciences. Since med school is mainly bio sciences, should I be alright?

I also agree that there is no way for us premeds to know how med school/residency/being an attending will be like. Despite this do you think it is reasonable to expect to find a place in medicine as an attending where we are able to work a predictable schedule with 50-60 hour weeks? Is it reasonable for me to expect that after residency (as long as I choose the right residency) I can have a balanced life?

Also would you guys recommend being a PA to pre-meds? Looking back now would you consider PA school more?
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FYI. It's rude to hijack threads for your personal interest. Create a thread in WAMC and someone will help you out.
 
ECkayak said:
Is it really that hard to understand? The practice of medicine is great, whereas the profession of being a doctor, the job of doctoring, if you will, is cluttered with bullcrap.
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Exactly.....medicine is great. The science and practice part.

The business of medicine (yes I used the word business) is horrible and it blows. However, it doesn't mean I'm just going to quit.

Listen guys, I understand when all you want is a spot in medical school this all sounds stupid and whiny but when you're in it you'll realize how much of a suck it really is.
 
WhippleWhileWeWork said:
Serious question: Why can't or won't doctors mobilize, like other work forces who get tired of being **** on, and fight to force the changes they need to make their work more in line with what they think they should be doing?
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We had a lecture by a politically active physician when I was in med school who essentially told us that physicians donate very little to their own lobbying efforts, and almost all of the time and money is spent just trying to keep us paid. They spend a lot of time keeping people like NPs, PAs, CRNAs, DPMs, etc from encroaching on physician territory. They spend a lot of time and effort fighting the 20% reimbursement cut from the government.

So not enough money and effort in, too much time spent trying to keep things how they are. Lawyers donate 10x as much to lobbyists as we do. I think even nursing specialties donate more than physicians.
 
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WhippleWhileWeWork said:
Pause and second thoughts. :thinking:

Serious question: Why can't or won't doctors mobilize, like other work forces who get tired of being **** on, and fight to force the changes they need to make their work more in line with what they think they should be doing?

Is it as obvious as "we're too busy"?
Or fear of the negative repercussions of what it would looks like if Doctors started complaining and lobbying en masse?

I'd like to hear some thoughts on that.
Click to expand...

Way above my pay grade but great question.
 
armybound said:
We had a lecture by a politically active physician when I was in med school who essentially told us that physicians donate very little to their own lobbying efforts, and almost all of the time and money is spent just trying to keep us paid. They spend a lot of time keeping people like NPs, PAs, CRNAs, DPMs, etc from encroaching on physician territory. They spend a lot of time and effort fighting the 20% reimbursement cut from the government.

So not enough money and effort in, too much time spent trying to keep things how they are. Lawyers donate 10x as much to lobbyists as we do. I think even nursing specialties donate more than physicians.
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Wow, I had no idea.
 
IMDoc607 said:
Exactly.....medicine is great. The science and practice part.

The business of medicine (yes I used the word business) is horrible and it blows. However, it doesn't mean I'm just going to quit.

Listen guys, I understand when all you want is a spot in medical school this all sounds stupid and whiny but when you're in it you'll realize how much of a suck it really is.
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I think I get what you're saying. The rewards of actually practicing medicine (the patient-doctor interactions and the satisfaction you get when you make a difference for a patient) are great, but the administrative / business aspects (billing, insurance, perhaps hospital or private practice politics, etc.) are not so much.

That would make sense to me ... it's easy to be idealistic about the mission when not having first hand experience with the administrative / business side.
And I bet it does suck and probably detracts from what you want to be focusing on ... I mean some of us even choose medicine because we don't like the corporate value system of profits before people.

Still, to me it is not enough to be dissuasive. I still think you'll get as much if not more of the same stuff working in the corporate world (I know I am highly favorable to my volunteer experience over my current corporate job), along with a lot of other negatives you don't find in medicine like job insecurity, outsourcing, inability to save for retirement, etc.
 
mehc012 said:
This is why I am so glad that I got a scribe position in 2 completely different environments - the ED and private practice. Personally, I think everyone should try scribing before applying for med school, though I know that is highly unrealistic. Shadowing is nice, but I often see people come through to shadow the docs I am working with, and they definitely put on a show for them - they take them into the 'interesting' cases and they don't discuss billing practices or annoyances with them at all. As a scribe, sure, I lack the direct responsibility and knowledge of the doctors, but I do get a really comprehensive view of what the daily grind is (albeit for a limited sample pool). Being with them every day for the full shift, working back-to-back 12s and having your sleep schedule shot to hell, hearing them pick over your charts and explain that reimbursement requires xyz here and abc there and if any of these things disagree they will not get paid and may be open for lawsuit, etc. Slogging through the 25th person that day with URI symptoms during flu season, and crossing your fingers that the PA sees that pregnant lady because holy gods are people anxious about everything while they are pregnant.
Sure, there are a lot of gaps - for example, scribing doesn't really expose you to on-call schedules - but it's a start...you at least SEE it, and for a long enough period that the rose-tinted lenses fade away. I always thought of scribing as many of the disadvantages of the physician - long hours, variable schedule, repetitive cases, the 'bad' patients, no breaks, billing headaches, track-down-the-consult-at-1am phone tag (I don't care what your computer says, I am not on call today, *click*), find-the-pharmacy, poor historians, crappy hospital food - with only a few of the good ones (mostly the 'good' patients and cool cases, but sadly no salary, respect, knowledge, ability to actually help anyone, etc. :laugh: ). So to me, if you scribe and still love your job at the end of the day, that's a good sign.
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Haha as a scribe I can relate with a lot of what you said. Let's not forget the picky doctors who have VERY SPECIFIC MDMs, DDx, and discharge phrases along with certain templates for exams and ROS. My perspective on EM was thoroughly changed from scribing. Not only does scribing give you a glimpse of the EM lifestyle, it shows you basically a toned down version of Residency itself . Got a overnight shift tommorow :/
 
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