How Being a Doctor Became the Most Miserable Profession

[IMDoc607]

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I think I get what you're saying. The rewards of actually practicing medicine (the patient-doctor interactions and the satisfaction you get when you make a difference for a patient) are great, but the administrative / business aspects (billing, insurance, perhaps hospital or private practice politics, etc.) are not so much.

That would make sense to me ... it's easy to be idealistic about the mission when not having first hand experience with the administrative / business side.
And I bet it does suck and probably detracts from what you want to be focusing on ... I mean some of us even choose medicine because we don't like the corporate value system of profits before people.

Still, to me it is not enough to be dissuasive. I still think you'll get as much if not more of the same stuff working in the corporate world (I know I am highly favorable to my volunteer experience over my current corporate job), along with a lot of other negatives you don't find in medicine like job insecurity, outsourcing, inability to save for retirement, etc.

I think you bring up great points. Honestly, I think if medical school was free most doctors wouldn't care so much about the salaries. For example, if a cardiologist made 200K max with zero debt and lower liability then I don't see most complaining. It's the debt and never ending expensive boards and training that makes us want a big return. Money aside, the subject of medicine is fascinating and awesome. Take away the debt and I think most people would accept a lower salary.

* I know 200k seems a lot now but not with all the debt.

 

[Psai]

It's called hypocrisy. It's rampant in this thread, and the double think demanded of the premeds is confounding.

That's not what hypocrisy is, nor is it double think. Is it really that hard to understand that things have a good side and a bad side? Have you ever been in a situation where everything was good and there were no bad things about it? Or something where everything was terrible and there was not a single redeeming feature?

 

[type12]

That's not what hypocrisy is, nor is it double think. Is it really that hard to understand that things have a good side and a bad side? Have you ever been in a situation where everything was good and there were no bad things about it? Or something where everything was terrible and there was not a single redeeming feature?

Yes to the last two questions, but I still see what you're saying. That's the heart of the issue in regards to the article: physicians say the good outweighs the bad, but then don't recommend the profession to others. When you do one thing (I am a physician) and say another (Don't be a physician), that's hypocrisy.

The double think comes from the whole "it's not worth it financially" aspect. I can bet you not a single physician on SDN has filed for bankruptcy, and the number of physicians who do is ridiculously small, especially compared to just the general population. Mortgage crisis? Didn't affect doctors as harshly as other fields (ignoring finance). That's the doublethink: "Lo, behold the physician and his impossible debt. It is worse than anyone else, but we have the lowest defaults and bankruptcies - oops, I mean, ignore that part."

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

We had a lecture by a politically active physician when I was in med school who essentially told us that physicians donate very little to their own lobbying efforts, and almost all of the time and money is spent just trying to keep us paid. They spend a lot of time keeping people like NPs, PAs, CRNAs, DPMs, etc from encroaching on physician territory. They spend a lot of time and effort fighting the 20% reimbursement cut from the government.

So not enough money and effort in, too much time spent trying to keep things how they are. Lawyers donate 10x as much to lobbyists as we do. I think even nursing specialties donate more than physicians.

So his take is that it's a lack of lobbying power through insufficient donations?

Edit: Going to start a new thread, maybe.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I think half the reason doctors make the salary they do is because they get **** on so much. Long hours, long and expensive training, and most of all... low numbers of training spots. Long hours are because there are a ton of sick people and not enough doctors. Training is long because let's face it, we all want someone to train for at least 7 years before they start touching our junk and giving us pills unsupervised. Salaries are high because competitive admissions (low numbers of training spots/resources) helps keep supply low and demand high. Disrupting the balance means giving up the salaries. How many attendings do you think would jump on the idea of opening up tons and tons of new med schools and training a ton more doctors to lower the workload and decrease pay when they already did their hard time to make the salary they make.

Am I understanding you to be saying that the reason Doctors don't mobilize and force the changes they want to see in their profession is that they might lose their high pay through removing some of the "****"? I understand what you're saying about supply and demand in terms of salaries but I'm not sure what that has to do with the influencing change part of the equation.

 

[Psai]

Yes to the last two questions, but I still see what you're saying. That's the heart of the issue in regards to the article: physicians say the good outweighs the bad, but then don't recommend the profession to others. When you do one thing (I am a physician) and say another (Don't be a physician), that's hypocrisy.

The double think comes from the whole "it's not worth it financially" aspect. I can bet you not a single physician on SDN has filed for bankruptcy, and the number of physicians who do is ridiculously small, especially compared to just the general population. Mortgage crisis? Didn't affect doctors as harshly as other fields (ignoring finance). That's the doublethink: "Lo, behold the physician and his impossible debt. It is worse than anyone else, but we have the lowest defaults and bankruptcies - oops, I mean, ignore that part."

The whole point of the thread is that you don't know what you don't know. Most of us come into medical school like you thinking that it's going to be sunshine and rainbows with patients loving us for saving their lives. Then you might end up "managing" their diabetes and poorly controlled hypertension while getting dinged for their noncompliance. It's not hypocrisy to go into something with an idea of how it's going to be and when you realize that it's not, you warn the people following you. I was thinking about pharmacy before I started medical school and a pharmacist told me about the poor job market due to the fact that pharmacy schools exploded their seats due to a "projected shortage". It's not hypocrisy.

Filing for bankruptcy is not the same thing as not worth it financially. Is it a stable job? Yes. Are you guaranteed a job? No. Will there be jobs in what you want to do where you want to do it? Probably not. The number of people who don't complete the track is low because it's so difficult to get in and you're selecting for a high performing population. How are you even so sure that bankruptcies are rare? The crisis did affect physicians by wiping out a lot of their savings which means there are more older docs that haven't retired which puts another downward pressure on the job market. People have been saying that the job market will get better as the older docs retire for years now and it still hasn't happened. What about the small number of people who get through medical school but don't match or only match a pre-lim year. How do you think they are going to service their 300k debt? You're arguing points about which you have no experience and no insight.

 

[type12]

The whole point of the thread is that you don't know what you don't know. Most of us come into medical school like you thinking that it's going to be sunshine and rainbows with patients loving us for saving their lives. Then you might end up "managing" their diabetes and poorly controlled hypertension while getting dinged for their noncompliance. It's not hypocrisy to go into something with an idea of how it's going to be and when you realize that it's not, you warn the people following you. I was thinking about pharmacy before I started medical school and a pharmacist told me about the poor job market due to the fact that pharmacy schools exploded their seats due to a "projected shortage". It's not hypocrisy.

Again, I get your point, but "warning" people vs "not recommending" are two different things:

"Hey being a doctor isn't all sunshine and rainbows, but it's still totally worth it."
"Hey being a doctor isn't all sunshine and rainbows, so don't do what I continue to do despite the fact."

It may appear to be a subtle difference, but it's actually a big one.

Filing for bankruptcy is not the same thing as not worth it financially. Is it a stable job? Yes. Are you guaranteed a job? No. Will there be jobs in what you want to do where you want to do it? Probably not. The number of people who don't complete the track is low because it's so difficult to get in and you're selecting for a high performing population. How are you even so sure that bankruptcies are rare? The crisis did affect physicians by wiping out a lot of their savings which means there are more older docs that haven't retired which puts another downward pressure on the job market. People have been saying that the job market will get better as the older docs retire for years now and it still hasn't happened. What about the small number of people who get through medical school but don't match or only match a pre-lim year. How do you think they are going to service their 300k debt? You're arguing points about which you have no experience and no insight.

I didn't say it didn't affect them, I said it affected them less harshly than other fields. That's a big difference. To be fair, if we're going to talk about experience and insight, why do you have more in this regards? Because you rent out a home like I do? Have you practiced as a physician or other professional career? Have you compared the physician job market with other professions? Rather than argue credentials, let's stick to the topic at hand.

And we do have to narrow our list of physicians here, because I'm assuming the doctors who would not recommend the field to others actually have practiced medicine, so the cohort that you are factoring in should be excluded. Same as above, it sounds petty, but this distinction is important.

 

[Psai]

What are you even talking about. This is why credentials matter, you have no life experience. You can't just drop what you've been working towards for years and just go do something else. There are very few people who will go through the rigors of medical training and then suddenly decide that being a doctor is just not what they want. You're arguing about nonsense.

 

[type12]

I'd argue I have significant more life experience than you, because it sounds like you have a very linear medical path. And actually, switching from software engineering and vying for medical school is basically dropping everything I've worked towards for years, so your statement, at the very least, is not an absolute.

It's not nonsense to chase your passions. I'm not sure what your point is anymore. Where did dropping everything you worked for come from? I thought you said medicine is worth it?

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I'd argue I have significant more life experience than you, because it sounds like you have a very linear medical path. And actually, switching from software engineering and vying for medical school is basically dropping everything I've worked towards for years, so your statement, at the very least, is not an absolute.

It's not nonsense to chase your passions. I'm not sure what your point is anymore. Where did dropping everything you worked for come from? I thought you said medicine is worth it?

To be fair, I think he's pointing out that life has a way of trapping people where they are. A few examples.
1. I used to ask plant operators who were 15-20 years in if they could do anything in the world, what job would they do? They almost always answered something different then what they were doing. I'd ask what was stopping them from pursuing that, the answer almost always came down to money.
a) debt (cars, house, toys, etc)
b) momentum building in their 401k/ pension/ retirement package
c) kid's education expenses
d) potential reduction in income
e) cost of further education/training

2. A doctor today will finish up residency with anywhere between 100-250-400k? of debt. That's a unique amount of debt in that it literally requires a substantially higher salary than most other jobs, and certainly any other job that they would be qualified for with their education and training at that point in their lives, to stay afloat while paying it off. You can't walk away from student debt, at least not usually. Also this isn't taking into account the time investment loss. Time value of money lost doing something else, much earlier. The cost of re-education to do something else. I could go on and on here.

It's not as simple as "You don't like it? Walk away" in many cases. I'm speaking as someone who's done it, it wasn't easy and my situation was pretty much ideal for it. I can't imagine a worse situation for it than the one that a Doctor is in after his training is complete.

 

[type12]

To be fair, I think he's pointing out that life has a way of trapping people where they are.

I totally agree. I didn't say it would be easy, but this is your one life, you know? If you aren't following your passion, what are you doing? I understand the "trapped" aspect, but I think kids and family are a more difficult bind than physician debt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Jeong

I know this is an extreme success example, but it brings home the point that there are lucrative possibilities outside of medicine (inside of medicine, I know pharma is always looking for MD consultants). The degree is an accomplishment, not a contract.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I totally agree. I didn't say it would be easy, but this is your one life, you know? If you aren't following your passion, what are you doing? I understand the "trapped" aspect, but I think kids and family are a more difficult bind than physician debt.

A lot of them have this as well, so add that to the pile. I'm not sure if you've ever dealt with debt before? Maybe an attending can chime in with his monthly loan bill and what his principle was after residency.

Following your passion is an idea that is enjoying some recent popularity but my parents generation, their parents generation and even many in my own generation don't especially relate to that idea when it comes to employment. Passions were for hobbies, to them.

 

[type12]

A lot of them have this as well, so add that to the pile. I'm not sure if you've ever dealt with debt before? Maybe an attending can chime in with his monthly loan bill and what his principle was after residency.

Following your passion is an idea that is enjoying some recent popularity but my parents generation, their parents generation and even many in my own generation don't especially relate to that idea when it comes to employment. Passions were for hobbies, to them.

I'd concede my point in those cases, but honestly, I feel those cases are few and far between. Yes, it'd be crazy to be a resident with a family, no question, but a post-residency physician should have no trouble with both debt and family.

I hate bringing personal information in here because it'll be confusing for various reasons, but I feel like people value one-point examples more that statistics (not you). About 2-3 years back, a friend of a friend opened up some fancy schmancy building Laureate in NYC. He said I'd be getting a huge discount and it'll be a great plan (he worked in finance, I didn't, and I trust him). The price? Around $650k, a debt I'm paying without whining. However, it was neither burdensome or regrettable. It's actually surprisingly affordable, with a salary similar to that of the lower end of a physician. This is the primary reason I call BS when residents whine about pay, because 1. it's temporary (residents), and 2. if I can do so much with the (physician) salary and a similar debt, why can't you? But I usually use the sound math because a personal example is not as conclusive.

I'm not married, and have no kids, but I have the (supposedly) burdensome debt.

I don't even live there and rent elsewhere, so I've got more payments than the average physician, and I'm managing not only fine, but I'm very comfortable. I'm willing to throw all this away because medicine is important to me. Perhaps people have a different idea of ONE life than I do.

 

[Theafoni]

I think we can agree that every that every job sucks. It doesn't matter what profession--medicine, business, engineering. If I could, I would have become a starving painter.

 

[mehc012]

Haha as a scribe I can relate with a lot of what you said. Let's not forget the picky doctors who have VERY SPECIFIC MDMs, DDx, and discharge phrases along with certain templates for exams and ROS. My perspective on EM was thoroughly changed from scribing. Not only does scribing give you a glimpse of the EM lifestyle, it shows you basically a toned down version of Residency itself . Got a overnight shift tommorow :/

That largely depends on your EMR software...mine doesn't have templates, it has click-buttons. Only the HPI and Depart Instructions are typed. We are also not asked to do the MDM - the docs Dragon that in at the end.
I never begrudge the doc being picky about the chart...it's their name and their liability, it should read the way they want it. What's harder to deal with are the "you are not a physician and thus you are a lower form of human being" docs who look through you, speak at you, not to you, and have you go heat up their lunch for them on shifts where they know they won't be giving you time to eat your own. It's still good practice to get used to 'em, though (we only have 1)...I'm sure that won't entirely disappear when I'm an inexperienced med student rather than an uneducated scribe.

 

[lnvictus]

I think we can agree that every that every job sucks. It doesn't matter what profession--medicine, business, engineering. If I could, I would have become a starving painter.

Agreed. A thread about "how job x became the most miserable profession" can be applied to all sectors of employment.

This has been one of the most intriguing reads on SDN because it presents two sides of an argument: one by those with aspirations of attending medical school, and another by those who have gained a degree of experience and whose feelings towards medicine have transformed since entering the world of medicine. I think that everyone (myself included) needs to read this as a (yet another) wake up call that what we expect and what we will gain from medicine has more discrepancies than we think.

And f*** Chelsea.

 

[IMDoc607]

Agreed. A thread about "how job x became the most miserable profession" can be applied to all sectors of employment.

This has been one of the most intriguing reads on SDN because it presents two sides of an argument: one by those with aspirations of attending medical school, and another by those who have gained a degree of experience and whose feelings towards medicine have transformed since entering the world of medicine. I think that everyone (myself included) needs to read this as a (yet another) wake up call that what we expect and what we will gain from medicine has more discrepancies than we think.

And f*** Chelsea.

Why don't you all stop fighting with each other. To some of you going to medical school is worth it and to others it's not. As I'm sure you have seen, MD's and dO's have merged and honesy I don't think it's for the reasons they're saying. Part of it is because we have bigger enemies to fight than each other....MD vs DO or premed vs med.

Yes, honestly I think the premeds are in for the shock if their life but for the med students, residents, and fellows.... Who gives a fu*k....let them learn like we did and at the end of the day they'll all be fine,

 

[Helper3]

Hearing what the experienced people say is important but for the newbies it's like talking Calculus to first grade math people. Just not ready to hear it or understand it.

As one who does not have experience in the medical world, from our end, it is cumbersome to filter through and identify those who are experienced and whining without good reason orjustification from those who are making valid arguments about the hardships of medicine these days.

 

[NickNaylor]

A lot of them have this as well, so add that to the pile. I'm not sure if you've ever dealt with debt before? Maybe an attending can chime in with his monthly loan bill and what his principle was after residency.

Given that resident salaries are largely standardized and mean debt levels are available from the AAMC, this isn't difficult to compute. Assuming an upper $40k to low $50k gross salary (fairly typical from what I've seen) during residency and working under the assumption that most people will use income-based repayment, a minimum $5k/year of your gross salary will go to loan payments. Stretched over training, that might leave you with anything from $15k-$35k (assuming no fellowship) in total repayment at the end of your residency. In 2011 mean debt levels were $155k for public schools (out of a total COA of $187.4k) and $187k for private schools (out of a total cost of $264k) [1]. These figures are almost certainly skewed low by students whose COA are either paid in cash fully or partially by wealthy parents - considering that more than half of medical students come from households in the top income quintile [2], this is likely not insignificant. I'm assuming those debt figures include interest that is capitalized through graduation, so my guess is that, for residents in specialties with shorter training pathways, the principle may not even be touched at all. For residents in longer training pathways, they might touch the principle but likely not much of it.

You're free to disagree with these assumptions, but to a first approximation I think it gives an idea of what's going on.

1) https://www.aamc.org/download/296002/data/aibvol12_no2.pdf
2) https://www.aamc.org/download/102338/data/aibvol8no1.pdf

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Given that resident salaries are largely standardized and mean debt levels are available from the AAMC, this isn't difficult to compute. Assuming an upper $40k to low $50k gross salary (fairly typical from what I've seen) during residency and working under the assumption that most people will use income-based repayment, a minimum $5k/year of your gross salary will go to loan payments. Stretched over training, that might leave you with anything from $15k-$35k (assuming no fellowship) in total repayment at the end of your residency. In 2011 mean debt levels were $155k for public schools (out of a total COA of $187.4k) and $187k for private schools (out of a total cost of $264k) [1]. These figures are almost certainly skewed low by students whose COA are either paid in cash fully or partially by wealthy parents - considering that more than half of medical students come from households in the top income quintile [2], this is likely not insignificant. I'm assuming those debt figures include interest that is capitalized through graduation, so my guess is that, for residents in specialties with shorter training pathways, the principle may not even be touched at all. For residents in longer training pathways, they might touch the principle but likely not much of it.

You're free to disagree with these assumptions, but to a first approximation I think it gives an idea of what's going on.

1) https://www.aamc.org/download/296002/data/aibvol12_no2.pdf
2) https://www.aamc.org/download/102338/data/aibvol8no1.pdf

Well it's not that I disagree, I think you did a fine job pointing out why these numbers don't help us much though. Like you've pointed out, the med school cost numbers aren't that useful for the typical case, and 15k during residency might not be keeping up with the interest or just so? Either way, once residency is over, the real pain starts. I want to hear about the real pain from the guys who are cutting the checks, if they'll share.

 

[NickNaylor]

Well it's not that I disagree, I think you did a fine job pointing out why these numbers don't help us much though. Like you've pointed out, the med school cost numbers aren't that useful for the typical case, and 15k during residency might not be keeping up with the interest or just so? Either way, once residency is over, the real pain starts. I want to hear about the real pain from the guys who are cutting the checks, if they'll share.

Fair enough. I think the reality is, though, that the "real pain" will almost certainly be worse for us than even physicians that finished training 10 years ago. The COA for education has absolutely exploded in the last 20 years. I too would be interested in seeing this, but I think it's important to keep in mind that whatever we might see, it likely isn't reflective of what students and residents currently in "the system" experience now.


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[@JackShephard]

Fair enough. I think the reality is, though, that the "real pain" will almost certainly be worse for us than even physicians that finished training 10 years ago. The COA for education has absolutely exploded in the last 20 years. I too would be interested in seeing this, but I think it's important to keep in mind that whatever we might see, it likely isn't reflective of what students and residents currently in "the system" experience now.


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Exactly, and it will be worse for those graduating 10 years after us.

Medical school is like a relationship. Everyone on the outside wants to be in one, but then many of those in relationships want to be single again.

I think being a doctor is still a great profession for some.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Fair enough. I think the reality is, though, that the "real pain" will almost certainly be worse for us than even physicians that finished training 10 years ago. The COA for education has absolutely exploded in the last 20 years. I too would be interested in seeing this, but I think it's important to keep in mind that whatever we might see, it likely isn't reflective of what students and residents currently in "the system" experience now.


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Couldn't agree more, I was hoping it would be at least a big enough number to put some meat on the bones of my disagreement with the idea that "the debt is no big deal, they could walk away from medicine if they wanted". And if we knew their principle amount, we could adjust for our tuition costs and interest rates and come up with something even scarier.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Medical school is like a relationship. Everyone on the outside wants to be in one, but then many of those in relationships want to be single again.

That was great.

"Sitting here with an acceptance letter all of a sudden feels a lot less sexy than the idea of sitting here with an acceptance letter."

 

[circulus vitios]

To those of you who think medicine is miserable, what were you expecting? Did you guys turn your brain off when you shadowed? I don't get it.

 

[@JackShephard]

To those of you who think medicine is miserable, what were you expecting? Did you guys turn your brain off when you shadowed? I don't get it.

Haha.

Shadowing has absolutely nothing to do with being a physician. When I shadow an ortho doc I have little idea what being an ortho doc is like. When I watch a radiologist read, I can barely comprehend the entire process.

I don't look at my colleagues who are frustrated and think they just screwed up and didn't do their due diligence. This is a challenging career and not everything we endure is apparent even for those with 200 hrs of shadowing and 1000 hours of volunteering. Plus, not everyone will match into the field they prefer.

I think it's fair to have compassion for these people. They have worked hard, borrowed hundreds of thousands and will go through residencies that are very trying. No one can honestly simulate the entire experience beforehand, regardless of how much research and shadowing you do. Also, memorizing the amount of info necessary is hard for some, easy for others - which can drastically affect your free time and social life.

So while you may not get it, if you attempt to have some empathy, you may get it. Then again, I don't know your level of training. If you are a pre-clinical student or below, then this would make more sense. If you're a resident or attending, then it makes less sense.

 

[type12]

Remember when you were in elementary school, and people would talk about how difficult middle school was? And then, "Wait till you get to high school!" Followed by, "college is really hard." I think this is the next logical progression. I always was disappointed by the level of difficulty bragged about, and instead found it exactly as expected. And then I realized, hundreds of thousands of people have done this before. I mean, great you got your driver's license, but it's not an exceptional feat. I think the desire to feel elite/special gives the illusion of greatness that younger generations are more resistant to.

I feel younger generations are simply more informed, and the older generations went into a profession with a greater deal of ignorance of both medicine and other professions and a lack of options. This thread definitely shows that financial sense is sorely lacking, but it's a feature everyone should have.

 

[@JackShephard]

Remember when you were in elementary school, and people would talk about how difficult middle school was? And then, "Wait till you get to high school!" Followed by, "college is really hard." I think this is the next logical progression. I always was disappointed by the level of difficulty bragged about, and instead found it exactly as expected. And then I realized, hundreds of thousands of people have done this before. I mean, great you got your driver's license, but it's not an exceptional feat. I think the desire to feel elite/special gives the illusion of greatness that younger generations are more resistant to.

I feel younger generations are simply more informed, and the older generations went into a profession with a greater deal of ignorance of both medicine and other professions and a lack of options. This thread definitely shows that financial sense is sorely lacking, but it's a feature everyone should have.

Haha. I've yet to meet a medical student who has said college was hard. And who said middle school would be hard? Lol.

Anyway, arrogance and pretentiousness are qualities that some can pull off but I'd recommend you at least accomplish something before talking.

I respect the older generation of physicians. And if they say something was difficult, I listen. Maybe it will be easier for me, maybe not. But I'm not foolish enough to tell them they were simply ignorant to the challenges of their field. I would feel like an arrogant ***** if I did that.

But there are many high scoring students that behave like arrogant fools. They can do well on exams but typically have terrible careers. Most everyone has to work with people, and people don't like individuals like that. The best students are exceptionally intelligent, but combine that with humility, empathy and character. They become the best physicians too.

 

[DermViser]

I'm pre-med, so I can't comment on how you feel as a physician, but I can tell you that this sentiment is hardly unique to medicine. Engineers are expendable to the businessmen of large corporations, and if you work for the government, several years of analysis could be tossed on the whim of a politician with a zero training in your field. Businessmen are expendable to higher up businessmen. The only person who isn't expendable is the guy who doesn't have anyone to tell him he is. There are some really obscure niche people, but even they become useless once their specific area is no longer relevant. You can argue that engineers/businessmen keep their jobs based on project outcomes, but I'll tell you from first hand experience that credit for good outcomes is thrown around so violently that no one will ever know that you were the one who did this or that to make the company money. You will, however, be held accountable for any mistakes, and being fired means a much more difficult job search than the one physicians face.

In my experience, a good job is one that provides good financial/job security, is fairly enjoyable in your day-to-day activities (knowing that some days/aspects are always going to suck), and gives you personal satisfaction. I know many physicians who complain about these particular aspects of medicine, but I feel it is being too idealistic to think that someone is going to value the work you do based solely on patient outcomes, and that a corporation is going to evaluate you holistically when something goes wrong. I think this stems from the fact that doctors often go through their training in a bubble of sorts, moving from one academic institution to the next, and having people evaluate them based on merit, achievement, and even sensitivity/demeanor. At the end of the day, any job at any institution that stays afloat based on the influx of money for services (as opposed to grants or donations) will only care about your effect on the bottom line. As long as you are in the workforce you will never be a precious and unique snowflake. You will be a gear in the grinding machine. Don't expect to be appreciated no matter how much torque you're pushing out, just expect to be compensated fairly, which I would say you are. If you want people to sit around extolling your worth and virtues, go back to school.

Wow, so much lack of insight, it's not even funny.

 

[DermViser]

Is it really that hard to understand? The practice of medicine is great, whereas the profession of being a doctor, the job of doctoring, if you will, is cluttered with bullcrap.

Premeds understanding nuance is a lot to ask.

 

[DermViser]

Agreed. A thread about "how job x became the most miserable profession" can be applied to all sectors of employment.

This has been one of the most intriguing reads on SDN because it presents two sides of an argument: one by those with aspirations of attending medical school, and another by those who have gained a degree of experience and whose feelings towards medicine have transformed since entering the world of medicine. I think that everyone (myself included) needs to read this as a (yet another) wake up call that what we expect and what we will gain from medicine has more discrepancies than we think.

And f*** Chelsea.

What did Chelsea Clinton do to you?

 

[circulus vitios]

Haha. I've yet to meet a medical student who has said college was hard. And who said middle school would be hard? Lol.

Anyway, arrogance and pretentiousness are qualities that some can pull off but I'd recommend you at least accomplish something before talking.

I respect the older generation of physicians. And if they say something was difficult, I listen. Maybe it will be easier for me, maybe not. But I'm not foolish enough to tell them they were simply ignorant to the challenges of their field. I would feel like an arrogant ***** if I did that.

But there are many high scoring students that behave like arrogant fools. They can do well on exams but typically have terrible careers. Most everyone has to work with people, and people don't like individuals like that. The best students are exceptionally intelligent, but combine that with humility, empathy and character. They become the best physicians too.

Well I'm hearing people bitching about paperwork, miserable patients, administrators breathing down their neck, long hours, etc. What did they expect.

 

[type12]

Haha. I've yet to meet a medical student who has said college was hard. And who said middle school would be hard? Lol.

Why would they? They now have medical school. It would be college students who would be saying that, the same way medical students say it about their current situation.

Hindsight is a funny thing.

Anyway, arrogance and pretentiousness are qualities that some can pull off but I'd recommend you at least accomplish something before talking.

What is pretentious about sharing my experiences thus far? Knowing what I'm getting into makes me informed and calculated, not arrogant nor pretentious.

I respect the older generation of physicians. And if they say something was difficult, I listen. Maybe it will be easier for me, maybe not. But I'm not foolish enough to tell them they were simply ignorant to the challenges of their field. I would feel like an arrogant ***** if I did that.

I think you're taking ignorant to be offensive. Columbus was ignorant of the Americas. That's the form I'm using. Information flows more freely now than it ever has in the past. Lack of information would mean you are ignorant in comparison to current generations.

EDIT: So a common example is how computer illiterate current doctors are, and don't even know how their own iPhones work. I don't work in hardware whatsoever, but I at least understand the components that make something work. That's doesn't make the doctor incompetent or unable to comprehend, just ignorant of it.

 

[DermViser]

Want to know why the public demonizes doctors, just go to the images used. See here in the Huffington Post:

Why Americans Pay Way More For Health Care Than Everyone Else

 

[obiwan]

for me, loved being a medical student learning about internal medicine during my 3rd/4th years. now being a hospitalist, love the time off and hate going to work and taking care of patients

 

[Muffinho]

Want to know why the public demonizes doctors, just go the Huffington Post:

Why Americans Pay Way More For Health Care Than Everyone Else

Did stuff like this only start getting mention in the media after Obamacare was implemented?

 

[DermViser]

Did stuff like this only start getting mention in the media after Obamacare was implemented?

It revved up I think when Obamacare got passed.

The first step in Obamacare was to pass.
Next step is to try to get everyone "insured".
The step after that is to start demonizing those who charge, easily done by the media: NY Times, etc.

Just like clockwork.

 

[Muffinho]

It revved up I think when Obamacare got passed.

The first step in Obamacare was to pass.
Next step is to try to get everyone "insured".
The step after that is to start demonizing those who charge, easily done by the media: NY Times, etc.

Just like clockwork.

Of course, the people who are actually making a lot of money because of Obamacare - Big Pharma and Insurance Companies - will never be scrutinized/

 

[DermViser]

Of course, the people who are actually making a lot of money because of Obamacare - Big Pharma and Insurance Companies - will never be scrutinized/

Yup, was just going to edit my post to say that -

• Hospital CEO salaries? No
• Insurance CEO salaries? No
• Big Pharma expenditures? No
• Medical Equipment firms? No
• Biotech companies? No.

Hence opthalmalogists get blamed for the price of Lucentis, something they have no control over.

 

[Muffinho]

Yup, was just going to edit my post to say that -

• Hospital CEO salaries? No
• Insurance CEO salaries? No
• Big Pharma expenditures? No
• Medical Equipment firms? No
• Biotech companies? No.

Hence opthalmalogists get blamed for the price of Lucentis, something they have no control over.

A quick google search shows that 20m of Obama's 2008 campaign fund came from the 'Healthcare Industry'. It is great how Obama managed to pass a very pro-corporation health care policy under the guise of "helping the people".

In the case of medicine, Physicians are almost solely responsible for producing the capital generated by hospitals and clinics, yet they take home only a small fraction of the capital. I suspect it will only get worse for Physicians in the United States. I'm a pre-med, but luckily I'm a Canadian and it is a little different here.

In any case, this thread has shed some light on a few of the things that I was pondering as a pre-med. It is useful to get the opinions of those who are more experienced.

 

[NontradCA]

It revved up I think when Obamacare got passed.

The first step in Obamacare was to pass.
Next step is to try to get everyone "insured".
The step after that is to start demonizing those who charge, easily done by the media: NY Times, etc.

Just like clockwork.

 

[DermViser]

A quick google search shows that 20m of Obama's 2008 campaign fund came from the 'Healthcare Industry'. It is great how Obama managed to pass a very pro-corporation health care policy under the guise of "helping the people".

In the case of medicine, Physicians are almost solely responsible for producing the capital generated by hospitals and clinics, yet they take home only a small fraction of the capital. I suspect it will only get worse for Physicians in the United States. I'm a pre-med, but luckily I'm a Canadian and it is a little different here.

In any case, this thread has shed some light on a few of the things that I was pondering as a pre-med. It is useful to get the opinions of those who are more experienced.

Yes, meanwhile on the trail, he demonized doctors (you can see on Youtube) accusing Surgeons of doing leg amputations bc they get reimbursed more (they don't) and accusing ENT docs of pulling out the tonsils of unsuspecting children.

 

[487806]

Wow, so much lack of insight, it's not even funny.

The source of the problem is the first two words of the post you quoted 😉

 

[DermViser]

I don't get it. Have you not heard Ezekiel Emanuel, MD, one of the authors of Obamacare, and have him explain how it works? Great strawman argument.

 

[NontradCA]

I don't get it. Have you not heard Ezekiel Emanuel, MD, one of the authors of Obamacare, and have him explain how it works? Great strawman argument.

My pic is an argument? Ok. I don't recall Zek ever stating part of the ACA is to demonize doctors through mass media.

 

[NontradCA]

Yes, meanwhile on the trail, he demonized doctors (you can see on Youtube) accusing Surgeons of doing leg amputations bc they get reimbursed more (they don't) and accusing ENT docs of pulling out the tonsils of unsuspecting children.

Lol that's BS.

 

[DermViser]

My pic is an argument? Ok. I don't recall Zek ever stating part of the ACA is to demonize doctors through mass media.

I said the goal is to rachet down reimbursements made to hospitals and providers, which is achieved through demonizing providers (i.e. New York Times). Emanuel, himself, has a column in the New York Times.

 

[Muffinho]

Yes, meanwhile on the trail, he demonized doctors (you can see on Youtube) accusing Surgeons of doing leg amputations bc they get reimbursed more (they don't) and accusing ENT docs of pulling out the tonsils of unsuspecting children.

Unfortunately, stuff like this cannot be easily remedied in traditional, political systems. As long as Pharma/Insurance can stack elections, they will have their way. It will lead to a marginalization of Physicians, and will eventually weaken the healthcare system.

 

[DermViser]

Lol that's BS.

Try again, genius.

 

[NontradCA]

Try again, genius.

You already posted this dumb crap on some other thread. You're taking what he said out of context. He's staying facts, not trying to say this is what the providers prefer.