How common is it to go Psych --> Pain?

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MrWonderful

Hey guys. I am stuck between Psychiatry and Anesthesiology. I think I can see myself being happy doing either, with the ultimate goal of getting into Pain Medicine. That said, if I had to do either Psych or Anesthesia without going into Pain, I see myself more as a private practice kind of guy who would lean towards Psych. I know it's easier to go Anesth --> Pain, but just how common is Psych --> Pain? If I ended up not getting into Pain, I'd prefer to fall back on Psych. Thanks
 
I also enjoyed anesthesiology and psych in med school. To answer your first question, it's extremely uncommon to go from psych to pain, so much so that admissions committees haven't really warmed up to the idea except in a few cases. Some years there's 0 psych applicants, other years 1 to 3 applicants.

Really though, as long as you do well in anesthesiology residency you have a much more decent chance of going into pain. If for some reason you can't get in, then practice for a couple years and apply again. I'm sure you'll make it either way through gas. I'm sure the Gas folks will tell you to only go into gas because you really want to and enjoy it, and I second that advice.
 
Its funny you mention this, I'm a psych resident interested in pain.

Check out the pain forum. There is a current thread that is discussing that psychiatry is having a great presence in the pain field, and fellowships are starting to recognize this:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/best-path-to-pain-med-fellowship.1202560/

Despite this, its pretty safe to say Anesthesia/PMR is still the preferred route to Pain. However, I don't think its impossible to match into pain either. The chairman of pain at UC Davis is a Psychiatrist, the editor in chief of Pain medicine is a psychiatrist. So it is difficult, but I guess doable?

But have a search on the pain forum for psych topics, there are a few that I have read.

and Leo Aquarius knows more than me about getting into pain, so I would value his advice over mine.
 
Consider a pain and addictions fellowship to really offer something new. Be sure to the addictions fellowship first and then to the pain 2nd. I believe you'll have a better understanding of the pain fellowship working this way and able to educate your colleagues in the program.
 
Wow I never really entertained the idea of Addictions. Interesting. I appreciate the responses. Tough career decisions ahead 😛
 
Wow I never really entertained the idea of Addictions. Interesting. I appreciate the responses. Tough career decisions ahead 😛

Tough but exciting. Feel free to PM me if you have more questions - I wish you the best!

(Imagine a Venn diagram with Addictions, Psych, and Physical Medicine & Rehab - in the very center would be Pain where they all overlap. Addictions would offer great value. It serves as one very critical component to the Pain macrocosm.)
 
Psych+Addictions+Pain. Highly marketable.

Overkill. Get a buprenorphine license and your cup will overfloweth.

Aside from that, I think a good framework for understanding of the mind would be great for pain specialty. Although, I'd be really cautious about selecting a residency program as I'm sure many will not be very supportive in more complex ideas about pain management.
 
Overkill. Get a buprenorphine license and your cup will overfloweth.

Aside from that, I think a good framework for understanding of the mind would be great for pain specialty. Although, I'd be really cautious about selecting a residency program as I'm sure many will not be very supportive in more complex ideas about pain management.

There's more to pain management than doling out Suboxone.
 
Anesthesia + Pain? Or Psych + Addiction + Pain?

If I were younger, I'd go Psych => Gas => Pain.

For med students, I'd go Gas => Pain because it's widely accepted as the standard at hospitals and clinics. It avoids untoward bias. Many hospitals have never heard of a Psych/Pain doctor, and will ask you to do Psych work due to the overwhelming shortage of psychiatrists in many states. I've already encountered this in my job hunt (yes, I've started a year early).
 
Agreed.

But I dunno if I could hack 3 years of intubating and sitting in the OR, so make sure you like some Gas, or it could be a long residency...

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If I were younger, I'd go Psych => Gas => Pain.

For med students, I'd go Gas => Pain because it's widely accepted as the standard at hospitals and clinics. It avoids untoward bias. Many hospitals have never heard of a Psych/Pain doctor, and will ask you to do Psych work due to the overwhelming shortage of psychiatrists in many states. I've already encountered this in my job hunt (yes, I've started a year early).

This is true. I had the same problem with sleep medicine until I found my niche. But while looking for jobs, I was idealizing far too much. However, the ideal sweet spot wouldn't be working with a hospital system, in fact, you'd be devastated by this racket. I would think the better way in which to position yourself is directly with a pain management group that interacts with both Neuro, NS and PM&R. A larger group will allow you that freedom, just be sure you'd have all the skills recorded as part of the contract.
 
There's more to pain management than doling out Suboxone.

I was being sarcastic.

However, if you just want to call yourself a pain management specialist and get rich doing it, there doesn't have to be any more to it than doling out Suboxone.
 
Do you guys think that Anesthesiology would best prepare me for the procedural nature of Pain Medicine? I know a Pain Doc with a background in Neuro who is one of the best, but even he says his colleagues who did a Gas residency came out with better skills and the learning curve was a bit steeper for him.
 
Do you guys think that Anesthesiology would best prepare me for the procedural nature of Pain Medicine? I know a Pain Doc with a background in Neuro who is one of the best, but even he says his colleagues who did a Gas residency came out with better skills and the learning curve was a bit steeper for him.

I'm sure it will. In anesthesia you'll be doing plenty of nerve blocks and epidurals and such. In psych, you won't even be using knowledge of that anatomy. I have no idea how big of a disadvantage that will be, as I'm sure you would be able to get just as competent in those things in the end.
 
Do you guys think that Anesthesiology would best prepare me for the procedural nature of Pain Medicine? I know a Pain Doc with a background in Neuro who is one of the best, but even he says his colleagues who did a Gas residency came out with better skills and the learning curve was a bit steeper for him.

Yes.
 
Anyone have thoughts re: Pain programs which might be more receptive to psychiatrists? E.g--know of fellowships that have current fellows with psychiatry background?

Am considering how I might advise a trainee entering the process.
Doing electives, attending journal club and letting them know you're interested is a good start. Where I did my training one guy was interested, but ultimately decided not to go that route but from what I understood, they would have taken him because of his desire to learn.
 
Anyone have thoughts re: Pain programs which might be more receptive to psychiatrists? E.g--know of fellowships that have current fellows with psychiatry background?
I don't know specific pain fellowships that accept psychiatrists (though I remember a thread about this... maybe it was on the Pain medicine forum?), but I have heard of folks heading this direction.

For Pain and Palliative Care/Hospice and the more physical specialties that psychiatrists can apply to but are in the very small minority, the advice I've heard is demonstrate an interest EARLY and do electives. After intern year, our physical medicine skills are dwindling, so electives that can keep those up and show dedication are helpful for Program Directors considering the risk involved with taking psychiatrists for more procedural or medical fellowships. I know this was the advice I was given for looking at Palliative Care and I can't help but think it would apply to Pain as well.
 
Found my notes, OPD. This is a few years back, but the programs I was told to look at as having accepted psychiatrists recently were:

Birmingham & Women’s Hospital
Mayo
UPMC
UC Davis
UCSD

Advice I noted was that since Pain takes only about 5-10 per year, most end up in larger fellowships. Also, psych applicants were encouraged to do research, previous research in Pain, and getting lots of procedural experience (ECT, TMS, DBS doesn't really cut it; think hands-on).

The kiss of death for psychiatrists going into pain are the ones doing so uninformed. The fellowship is NOT about getting folks off of their pain medications, it's mostly procedural. Reading up on the fellowship (and knowing the fact that much of your work will doing blocks and all kinds of needle work) will help prevent getting file 13'd right off the bat.
 
Tough but exciting. Feel free to PM me if you have more questions - I wish you the best!

(Imagine a Venn diagram with Addictions, Psych, and Physical Medicine & Rehab - in the very center would be Pain where they all overlap. Addictions would offer great value. It serves as one very critical component to the Pain macrocosm.)

Sorry, I don't mean to beat you up here because I sort of agree with you, especially from a sociological and medical structure perspective. But, I've been in awful amounts of chronic pain for 60% of my life at this point due to nerve and spine damage. I have forgotten what it's like not to hurt, and take it for granted so much that it often leads to worse injuries. Also have never touched a pain med other than COX inhibitors. Addiction is not part of MY pain world. But, this isn't about me getting offended. More, regret that the pain world smells so much like failure and loss of quality of life.

The reason Addiction has become part of the Pain microcosm (nice word choice by the way!) is because of the way we as a society view pain, and because of the way the medical establishment uses opioids and targets 'pain relief' in chronic pain.

To the OP, I think the future is bright for psych in chronic pain. I was well-received during my pain elective and personally know two psych docs who had relatively little trouble going into pain fellowship.
 
More to the OP, if you are thinking from a strict marketability perspective in terms of getting into pain, it's Gas>PMR>Neuro>>Psych. That said, competitiveness is way down and recent trends seem to support psychs that want to go into it, able to do so. Get as much needle time as you can as a med student, as an intern, and in electives. Go to a program with elective time and with a good relationship between psych and pain.

From what's going to benefit patients the most, I think Gas is inferior to the other three fields. Functional anatomy and deficits, looking at scans all day, understanding the nervous system peculiarities, and the ability to both understand psychiatric contributions and deliver effective psychosocial intervention seem pretty important.

To my mind, it's a tossup between PM&R and Psych in terms of which will help patients the most. PM&R docs have the functional anatomy knowledge, the familiarity with neuromusculoskeletal functioning as a whole, and an understanding of the physical process (including brain) that leads to pain. The ability to detect and refer or intervene for compromised movement patterns, identification of pathologic compensatory drives, or reversible (through PT or surgery) deficits is huge. Their training basically also revolves around 'making the best of a bad situation' which is I think inherently a good mindset to develop in this population.

As for psych. Well, we know that Trauma, Depression, Anxiety all lead to increased perception and sensation of pain through various psychogenic, forebrain, limbic, and hypothalamic processes. We also know that personality factors greatly change the experience of pain. And, psych will give you a broader range of training in various psychotherapeutic interventions that are quite helpful for pain. Things like mindfulness to decrease pain catastrophization and limit secondary panic/pain responses (Bodhidharma's Second Arrow...or the Hick's Second Fishhook) and to enable one to still have a pleasant time despite the pain. Acceptance and committment to work through feelings of loss and frustration associated with a permanent state of pain. Behavioral Activation to keep moving, stick to PT, and ensure counterbalancing positive stimuli remain present. Motivational Enhancement Therapy for reinforcement of all of the above. This is in addition to being an MD who can therefore discuss their diagnoses with them with some degree of facility. Not to mention psychiatric meds with pain benefits (gabapentin, cymbalta, effexor

I've had quite a few patients who ended up in psych clinic after pain clinic fired them. One of the most frustrating things about this population is wishing 'we' (meaning psych) could've gotten to them earlier. They've mostly tended to respond very well to psychiatric intervention.

A perfect pathway into pain would be a PM&R/psych combined residency followed by pain fellowship.
 
Sorry, I don't mean to beat you up here because I sort of agree with you, especially from a sociological and medical structure perspective. But, I've been in awful amounts of chronic pain for 60% of my life at this point due to nerve and spine damage. I have forgotten what it's like not to hurt, and take it for granted so much that it often leads to worse injuries. Also have never touched a pain med other than COX inhibitors. Addiction is not part of MY pain world. But, this isn't about me getting offended. More, regret that the pain world smells so much like failure and loss of quality of life.

The reason Addiction has become part of the Pain microcosm (nice word choice by the way!) is because of the way we as a society view pain, and because of the way the medical establishment uses opioids and targets 'pain relief' in chronic pain.

To the OP, I think the future is bright for psych in chronic pain. I was well-received during my pain elective and personally know two psych docs who had relatively little trouble going into pain fellowship.

I do agree with your points, except that I have the opposite impression about ease of acceptance coming from psych. I also know 2 psych residents who applied - they both did not match.

But for those thinking about pain fellowships, realize there are two kinds. Those that are interventional heavy, and those that are not almost to a fault. For a psych resident to step over their Gas and PM&R brethren into an interventional program in an already-competitive milieu, it's rather difficult. But what do I know, I'm an N of 1. But I just came off the interview trail.
 
Now one thing we did not discuss here is, how do you get an addictions fellowship? Fortunately, other specialties have this and it is not the full purview of psychiatry. You can do PM&R or Gas and then do pain and then an addictions fellowship.
 
More to the OP, if you are thinking from a strict marketability perspective in terms of getting into pain, it's Gas>PMR>Neuro>>Psych. That said, competitiveness is way down and recent trends seem to support psychs that want to go into it, able to do so. Get as much needle time as you can as a med student, as an intern, and in electives. Go to a program with elective time and with a good relationship between psych and pain.

From what's going to benefit patients the most, I think Gas is inferior to the other three fields. Functional anatomy and deficits, looking at scans all day, understanding the nervous system peculiarities, and the ability to both understand psychiatric contributions and deliver effective psychosocial intervention seem pretty important.

To my mind, it's a tossup between PM&R and Psych in terms of which will help patients the most. PM&R docs have the functional anatomy knowledge, the familiarity with neuromusculoskeletal functioning as a whole, and an understanding of the physical process (including brain) that leads to pain. The ability to detect and refer or intervene for compromised movement patterns, identification of pathologic compensatory drives, or reversible (through PT or surgery) deficits is huge. Their training basically also revolves around 'making the best of a bad situation' which is I think inherently a good mindset to develop in this population.

As for psych. Well, we know that Trauma, Depression, Anxiety all lead to increased perception and sensation of pain through various psychogenic, forebrain, limbic, and hypothalamic processes. We also know that personality factors greatly change the experience of pain. And, psych will give you a broader range of training in various psychotherapeutic interventions that are quite helpful for pain. Things like mindfulness to decrease pain catastrophization and limit secondary panic/pain responses (Bodhidharma's Second Arrow...or the Hick's Second Fishhook) and to enable one to still have a pleasant time despite the pain. Acceptance and committment to work through feelings of loss and frustration associated with a permanent state of pain. Behavioral Activation to keep moving, stick to PT, and ensure counterbalancing positive stimuli remain present. Motivational Enhancement Therapy for reinforcement of all of the above. This is in addition to being an MD who can therefore discuss their diagnoses with them with some degree of facility. Not to mention psychiatric meds with pain benefits (gabapentin, cymbalta, effexor

I've had quite a few patients who ended up in psych clinic after pain clinic fired them. One of the most frustrating things about this population is wishing 'we' (meaning psych) could've gotten to them earlier. They've mostly tended to respond very well to psychiatric intervention.

A perfect pathway into pain would be a PM&R/psych combined residency followed by pain fellowship.

Again, you have to weigh this against industry bias. Gas founded Pain, Gas occupies the main channels in the Pain world, Gas/Pain is the expected service employers are looking for.

Sure, theoretically a PM&R/Psych/Addictions/Neuro trained doctor would be ideal prior to a pain fellowship.
 
I do agree with your points, except that I have the opposite impression about ease of acceptance coming from psych. I also know 2 psych residents who applied - they both did not match.

But for those thinking about pain fellowships, realize there are two kinds. Those that are interventional heavy, and those that are not almost to a fault. For a psych resident to step over their Gas and PM&R brethren into an interventional program in an already-competitive milieu, it's rather difficult. But what do I know, I'm an N of 1. But I just came off the interview trail.

I agree.

But I also think if you hustle and show people that you like doing procedures, you might be able to overcome this 'handicap'. How do you do this? Publish a paper on epidurals, present a poster on non-particulates vs. particulates for ESI, review SCS for CRPS, etc. And obviously when doing electives in pain, show eagerness to do procedures. Don't just sit in the office all day and push CBT/Mindfulness on patients, further deepening the psych stereotype. Pain docs know you're psych, they know you can do this. They want to see if you can expand your toolbox (RFAs, Intrathecal Pumps, Stem Cell Regeneration, etc.). And know your analgesia pharmacology inside out. I hate to say it, but I've come across a lot of psych docs/residents that are pretty clueless when it comes to prescribing analgesia. Even just memorizing morphine conversion table will go far in an elective.

This is based on my elective experience in pain. I realized as a medical student, that at the end of the day people (attendings/faculty) just appreciate hard work and genuine interest. This model of thinking continues even into residency/fellowship.
 
I agree.

But I also think if you hustle and show people that you like doing procedures, you might be able to overcome this 'handicap'. How do you do this? Publish a paper on epidurals, present a poster on non-particulates vs. particulates for ESI, review SCS for CRPS, etc. And obviously when doing electives in pain, show eagerness to do procedures. Don't just sit in the office all day and push CBT/Mindfulness on patients, further deepening the psych stereotype. Pain docs know you're psych, they know you can do this. They want to see if you can expand your toolbox (RFAs, Intrathecal Pumps, Stem Cell Regeneration, etc.). And know your analgesia pharmacology inside out. I hate to say it, but I've come across a lot of psych docs/residents that are pretty clueless when it comes to prescribing analgesia. Even just memorizing morphine conversion table will go far in an elective.

This is based on my elective experience in pain. I realized as a medical student, that at the end of the day people (attendings/faculty) just appreciate hard work and genuine interest. This model of thinking continues even into residency/fellowship.

Agreed. You're not going to get into pain based on your psych proficiency. You'll get into pain because you can prove you're interested in pain skills, show development in them, and a recognition of your position as 'behind the 8 ball'. Get your hands dirty if they'll let you. If not, ask all the questions you can about procedures, learn landmarks, etc.
 
Now one thing we did not discuss here is, how do you get an addictions fellowship? Fortunately, other specialties have this and it is not the full purview of psychiatry. You can do PM&R or Gas and then do pain and then an addictions fellowship.

How many years of combined fellowship does this become, then?
 
Hey guys. I am stuck between Psychiatry and Anesthesiology. I think I can see myself being happy doing either, with the ultimate goal of getting into Pain Medicine. That said, if I had to do either Psych or Anesthesia without going into Pain, I see myself more as a private practice kind of guy who would lean towards Psych. I know it's easier to go Anesth --> Pain, but just how common is Psych --> Pain? If I ended up not getting into Pain, I'd prefer to fall back on Psych. Thanks

I've spoken to pain PDs who have been actively interested in getting good psych residents, but they were very interested in starting CBT for pain, integrative care, etc. No one has taken them up on it, so if you look at the stats strictly it seems that they are averse to psych. In those cases, you're probably better off avoiding the addiction fellowship and focus on making a mark/getting recruited in your institutions pain department. Then on off-service rotations and electives, take every chance to do procedures like epidural sand central lines. I would make it clear that you're interested in behavioral health interventions, since they may be suspicious that you're looking for a back door way into performing well-reimbursed procedures (which may ultimately be less lucrative).

Generally, I would pursue what you love. If for whatever reason you love pain management, go for gas, since that will give you the best education. Your best chance of succeeding is to not plan on failure, taking every chance to get published, present and kiss ass. If it's not your life passion (and I don't think it has to be) and you're not interested in gas, then go for psych. It's a brutal 4 years that is only manageable if you at least START interested in it (with the expectation you're going to have some period of burnout).
 
I agree. If you love Pain, go for Gas. Anesthesiology residents receive a lot of pain training, both pharmacologically and procedurally actually. Rotating through pain clinic and managing in-patient pain issues are mandatory. It's on their in service exams as well. This was made clear to me by my friend in Gas.

I actually think Gas residents know the most about managing Pain coming out of residency.
 
I swear to god this board gets more delusional every week it seems. Psychiatry and procedural pain mgt go together about as well as hot chocolate in Ethiopia. Are there a few people out there somewhere in the entire country doing pain procedures who also trained in psych initially? Probably. Does this mean it is a reasonable path? Hell no. If you want to make a career out of sticking needles into people's spines and such, it's probably not the best idea to pick the only residency where you do NO PROCEDURES.
 
I've had a few graduates go to pain fellowships. Anesthesia teaches almost nothing about somatoform pain disorders. I would like to think our psychiatrists have a lot to offer the pain field. They may have a steeper hill learning the procedures, but the anesthesiologists have some psychiatry things to learn about pain.
 
I've had a few graduates go to pain fellowships. Anesthesia teaches almost nothing about somatoform pain disorders. I would like to think our psychiatrists have a lot to offer the pain field. They may have a steeper hill learning the procedures, but the anesthesiologists have some psychiatry things to learn about pain.

The people in mental health I've seen working in 'pain medicine' typically do so from a non-procedural standpoint. There is one very large group here that has 8 or so providers......6 of them are various combinations of gas, per, neuro, etc and then there is 1 psychologist and 1 psychiatrist. The medical people do the procedures and the mental health providers deal with things like somatoform pain disorders, assess for addiction risk, etc.....I'm sure the compensation structure falls along those lines too to reflect the collection differences.
 
I swear to god this board gets more delusional every week it seems. Psychiatry and procedural pain mgt go together about as well as hot chocolate in Ethiopia. Are there a few people out there somewhere in the entire country doing pain procedures who also trained in psych initially? Probably. Does this mean it is a reasonable path? Hell no. If you want to make a career out of sticking needles into people's spines and such, it's probably not the best idea to pick the only residency where you do NO PROCEDURES.

? I agree the learning curve is steeper, but you're making it sound like pain medicine involve laparotomies and thoracotomies. If medical students in england can confidently be taught and excel in lumbar punctures over a few weeks, then psychiatry residents can be taught Epidurals/Nerve Blocks/RFAs/SCS in 12 months. Yes, it may mean a few more hours of practice/night time studying than our gas friends, but its not impossible.

I met with the program director of a pain program in person, and he said his psych fellow at the start was shaky, but by the end of the year was the best of the 4 (PMR/Gas) in doing procedures. I know its hard to believe, but psychiatrists do go to medical school and do have certain basic procedural skills.

We can't keep feeding into the stereotype that we are incompetent using our hands. Sure, our specialty doesn't involve examining patients/hand-eye co-ordination, but that doesn't mean we can't do it if we put our mind to it.
 
? I agree the learning curve is steeper, but you're making it sound like pain medicine involve laparotomies and thoracotomies. If medical students in england can confidently be taught and excel in lumbar punctures over a few weeks, then psychiatry residents can be taught Epidurals/Nerve Blocks/RFAs/SCS in 12 months. Yes, it may mean a few more hours of practice/night time studying than our gas friends, but its not impossible.

I met with the program director of a pain program in person, and he said his psych fellow at the start was shaky, but by the end of the year was the best of the 4 (PMR/Gas) in doing procedures. I know its hard to believe, but psychiatrists do go to medical school and do have certain basic procedural skills.

We can't keep feeding into the stereotype that we are incompetent using our hands. Sure, our specialty doesn't involve examining patients/hand-eye co-ordination, but that doesn't mean we can't do it if we put our mind to it.

more delusional nonsense. "that doesn't mean we can't do it if we put our mind to it" applies to a lot of things. You could apply that level of reasoning to make the case that a wide range of people trained in one thing could eventually learn how to do something very different for which other people are obviously much better qualified for.
 
? I agree the learning curve is steeper, but you're making it sound like pain medicine involve laparotomies and thoracotomies. If medical students in england can confidently be taught and excel in lumbar punctures over a few weeks, then psychiatry residents can be taught Epidurals/Nerve Blocks/RFAs/SCS in 12 months. Yes, it may mean a few more hours of practice/night time studying than our gas friends, but its not impossible.

I met with the program director of a pain program in person, and he said his psych fellow at the start was shaky, but by the end of the year was the best of the 4 (PMR/Gas) in doing procedures. I know its hard to believe, but psychiatrists do go to medical school and do have certain basic procedural skills.

We can't keep feeding into the stereotype that we are incompetent using our hands. Sure, our specialty doesn't involve examining patients/hand-eye co-ordination, but that doesn't mean we can't do it if we put our mind to it.

One skill I needed to demonstrate competency with during my sleep fellowship was doing LPs.
 
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