How likely is it to make $375-400k in Psych?

[comp1]

My psych residency was pretty much like the college experience i didn't really get due to a BS/MD accelerated program. I figure thats pretty much the life i missed out on in my early 20s but luckily i was still mid 20s at the start of it with a somewhat chill residency for the most part so i basically worked out, played tennis, and dated as my main full time hobby.

That is how psych residency should be everywhere.

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[Meyer-Overton]

My psych residency was pretty much like the college experience i didn't really get due to a BS/MD accelerated program. I figure thats pretty much the life i missed out on in my early 20s but luckily i was still mid 20s at the start of it with a somewhat chill residency for the most part so i basically worked out, played tennis, and dated as my main full time hobby.

Sounds nice. Wish that was my experience

 

[TexasPhysician]

I truly have never understood those that complained that med school and residency were so hard they didn’t have a good life. It wasn’t that hard or time consuming. Now where I will agree is the lost opportunity cost of going backwards in net worth while those in fintech were moving forward (as long as they are smart with their work and spending)

We aren’t all as smart as you.

 

[Meyer-Overton]

And you know, you're doing something actually useful with your life instead of making a big pile of money a bigger pile of money.

The point of a job is to make money.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

The point of a job is to make money.

If you're honestly that reductive then I'll just say it, you're probably a terrible psychiatrist. So yeah no wonder you're unhappy and comparing yourself to finance bros.

 

[Meyer-Overton]

If you're honestly that reductive then I'll just say it, you're probably a terrible psychiatrist. So yeah no wonder you're unhappy and comparing yourself to finance bros.

I'm not a terrible psychiatrist. I can guarantee you that

 

[Splenda88]

I truly have never understood those that complained that med school and residency were so hard they didn’t have a good life. It wasn’t that hard or time consuming. Now where I will agree is the lost opportunity cost of going backwards in net worth while those in fintech were moving forward (as long as they are smart with their work and spending)

I was a non traditional student in my 30s. My med school classmates partied more than most people that were in their 20s.

 

[clausewitz2]

Let's keep it civil, y'all.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Let's keep it civil, y'all.

I can certainly rephrase that as stating that someone who has the mindset that the "point of a job is to make money" is starting down a slope that can often end up in engaging in:
- Fraudulent behavior
- Unethical behavior
- Behavior that compromises patient safety/wellness for personal enrichment or profit seeking

Let's also keep in mind that these forums are easily searchable and open to patients to view as well. I would wonder what patients would think when they peruse the psychiatry forums online and come across such statements.

 

[psychmd03]

My psych residency was pretty much like the college experience i didn't really get due to a BS/MD accelerated program. I figure thats pretty much the life i missed out on in my early 20s but luckily i was still mid 20s at the start of it with a somewhat chill residency for the most part so i basically worked out, played tennis, and dated as my main full time hobby.

Our residency was known to be a middle ground of “hard and “easy” call was rough but it wasn’t all the time. Night float made it hard but you had a weekend always through the month. And if you prioritized workouts, and a social life there was plenty of life to be lived. I could agree more.

That is how psych residency should be everywhere.

Absolutely

I was a non traditional student in my 30s. My med school classmates partied more than most people that were in their 20s.

A few of the med students I know seem to continue this tread

 

[OMSWeebHours]

I echo the above--if you're looking to walk into a publicly posted, 40-hour, W2 employee position and make 375+ then there will be other (significant) caveats to the position.

All physicians convert their time to money, unless they have ownership stake in a larger enterprise and siphon profit off of employees (scale -> income.)

It would be relatively trivial, logistically, for a psychiatrist to convert their time into 400k per year in private practice. Billing Medicare (in my metro), you'd need to see about 35 hours of patients per week. Seems like many PP docs prefer to work less than that, though. I estimate that you'd be earning about $450k if you were willing to work 40 patient-care (billable) hours per week (which is not the same as 40 hours of work per week.) That's with the assumption that you don't have out of control expenses/high no-show rate/etc.

How many hours of actual work a week is required for 40 patient billable hours? I realize that there is other stuff like charting/insurance to deal with

 

[Stagg737]

I wonder about the percentage of people with business/finance/CS degree that make 100-150k bestrewn the age of 23-30. My impression is that it might be only the top 10%.

I always go back to this.

The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?

Explore the occupations and industries of the nation's wealthiest households.

archive.nytimes.com

I love that graphic, but it's not really relevant to the discussion. That shows households in the 1% which is quite different than single earners, otherwise there's no way teachers would be the 5th highest career in the top 1 percenters. It's also talking about the top 1%, which is $400k/yr, very different from 100k/yr.

$100k/yr is around the 82nd percentile for individuals in 2023. 33.5mil individuals in the US made over $100k in 2023. Making over $250k was harder and less than 5mil individuals did in 2023 (data in link, lots of fun numbers to crunch here). I agree that it's probably not a huge percentage of people in their 20's in finance making much more than $100k/yr (old data on that site says $100k is 99th percentile for 23 yo but only 86th percentile for 29 yo), but it's not as difficult as it was even 5 years ago ($100k for 29yo was 91st percentile). I'd be curious to see if it's more difficult to do that vs gaining acceptance to med school. Here's the link: Income Percentile Calculator for the United States

This site as $100k/yr as 68th percentile for "financial managers" with median income being $75k. They don't have data for job/degree AND age, but they say that for ages 23-30 yo the individual median income is only $26,500. So probably a lot of unaccounted for variables and a poor representation of what you're asking. This site also says median pay for physicians is only $205k with $395k/yr being the 75th percentile for what that's worth. Income Percentiles by Occupation and Education Level - Personal Finance Data

I can certainly rephrase that as stating that someone who has the mindset that the "point of a job is to make money" is starting down a slope that can often end up in engaging in:
- Fraudulent behavior
- Unethical behavior
- Behavior that compromises patient safety/wellness for personal enrichment or profit seeking

Let's also keep in mind that these forums are easily searchable and open to patients to view as well. I would wonder what patients would think when they peruse the psychiatry forums online and come across such statements.

They weren't really wrong at all though. The reason most people work, including physicians, is to make money. Hopefully people will do something they enjoy a little and find purpose from, but how many people do you honestly know would continue to do their specific job if they were only paid the minimum to get by (housing, food, transport, downtime)? If this were a communist society where everyone got equal pay for hours worked you really think most physicians would still choose to be physicians with everything our job entails? I almost certainly wouldn't given the level of responsibility and liability we have...

I also think there's a big difference between saying the point of a job is to make money and the point of a job is to make as much money as possible through any means necessary. Your statements are implying the latter is inevitable or at least likely, which certainly happens but imo is not to be expected.

 

[Meyer-Overton]

Let's keep it civil, y'all.

Thank you, hopefully we can all do so...

 

[Meyer-Overton]

Its funny, I would guess about 50% of people I knew as premeds truly considered going into medicine to be a calling or some higher purpose. Now just about everyone I know (residents, attendings especially non-academic ones) see it as what it truly is, a job. The point of a job is to provide yourself an income. Yes you should strive to do a good job, just as a pilot, an engineeer, an accountant, a lawyer, etc should. 1. Because its the right thing to do but 2. because if you don't you may not have a job for long. But none of those people view their jobs as callings to the extent that some imply that physicians should. Why is that?

 

[finalpsychyear]

Its funny, I would guess about 50% of people I knew as premeds truly considered going into medicine to be a calling or some higher purpose. Now just about everyone I know (residents, attendings especially non-academic ones) see it as what it truly is, a job. The point of a job is to provide yourself an income. Yes you should strive to do a good job, just as a pilot, an engineeer, an accountant, a lawyer, etc should. 1. Because its the right thing to do but 2. because if you don't you may not have a job for long. But none of those people view their jobs as callings to the extent that some imply that physicians should. Why is that?

There is some type of societal brainwashing at work that doctors care abt the patient first and nothing else really matters. That's played out great for whoever has pushed that narrative and less so for docs.

Also, being good at your job and one prioritizing money aren't related.

I can be a great cosmetic dermatologist doing 100% botox but if someone not established won't or can't pay it's OK to refuse service.

It's exactly this guilt tripping narrative that everyone has pushed that doctors as a whole are scrapping for scraps as a whole in the Healthcare industry when u compare their pay to the total industry.

 

[Meyer-Overton]

Thats why I applaud the psychiatrists who are seeing as many as 40,50, sometimes 80 patients per day. Thats called hustling

 

[FlowRate]

I wonder about the percentage of people with business/finance/CS degree that make 100-150k bestrewn the age of 23-30. My impression is that it might be only the top 10%.

I always go back to this.

The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?

Explore the occupations and industries of the nation's wealthiest households.

archive.nytimes.com

Isn't that wealth and not income? Tons of family money types in medicine. And also having lots of wealth enables being in other lower-paying careers (teachers.)

How many hours of actual work a week is required for 40 patient billable hours? I realize that there is other stuff like charting/insurance to deal with

Highly variable. I've never actually run my own private practice. But definitely stuff outside of patient appointments, even absent billing and what not, will take at least some time usually.

I love that graphic, but it's not really relevant to the discussion. That shows households in the 1% which is quite different than single earners, otherwise there's no way teachers would be the 5th highest career in the top 1 percenters. It's also talking about the top 1%, which is $400k/yr, very different from 100k/yr.

As above. Pretty sure it's referring to wealth and not income.

 

[Stagg737]

Thats why I applaud the psychiatrists who are seeing as many as 40,50, sometimes 80 patients per day. Thats called hustling

I'm all for hustling, but that kind of patient volume in psych is only reasonable if your patients are completely stable and just coming in for their med refill. Even then, 40/day is still something I'd never advocate for and higher than that is just a failed standard of care imo.

Isn't that wealth and not income? Tons of family money types in medicine. And also having lots of wealth enables being in other lower-paying careers (teachers.)

As above. Pretty sure it's referring to wealth and not income.

Maybe, would love to see the article again but I don't pay for news. I thought it was based on household income though. Idk how they could accurately determine actual net worth on a large scale like that...

 

[psychmd03]

Its funny, I would guess about 50% of people I knew as premeds truly considered going into medicine to be a calling or some higher purpose. Now just about everyone I know (residents, attendings especially non-academic ones) see it as what it truly is, a job. The point of a job is to provide yourself an income. Yes you should strive to do a good job, just as a pilot, an engineeer, an accountant, a lawyer, etc should. 1. Because its the right thing to do but 2. because if you don't you may not have a job for long. But none of those people view their jobs as callings to the extent that some imply that physicians should. Why is that?

I’d actually argue being good at your job can very easily create flywheel of more opportunities to make more money. So if you want to make more money focusing on doing a good job is a great way to do it. It’s how I’ve picked up all my work and turned down many more opportunities. I just slowly slide in be nice, work well with my team, treat my patients, don’t get complaints and slowly I have more offers for coverage. Then do a good job when I cover and all of a sudden someone else has some work etc etc. So for those that want to maximize their monetary opportunities they should for sure focus on doing a good job not just straight volume.

I'm all for hustling, but that kind of patient volume in psych is only reasonable if your patients are completely stable and just coming in for their med refill. Even then, 40/day is still something I'd never advocate for and higher than that is just a failed standard of care imo.

Or the very sick IP which make it very clear very quickly if you’re doing a good job or not.

 

[Splenda88]

I’d actually argue being good at your job can very easily create flywheel of more opportunities to make more money. So if you want to make more money focusing on doing a good job is a great way to do it. It’s how I’ve picked up all my work and turned down many more opportunities. I just slowly slide in be nice, work well with my team, treat my patients, don’t get complaints and slowly I have more offers for coverage. Then do a good job when I cover and all of a sudden someone else has some work etc etc. So for those that want to maximize their monetary opportunities they should for sure focus on doing a good job not just straight volume.

Or the very sick IP which make it very clear very quickly if you’re doing a good job or not.

The few hospitalists I know that are making > 500k are very good at their job.

I was a RN for ~8 years and based on my experience, there is a far higher % of nurses that go into nursing strictly for $$$ than physicians. The public love nurses and yet they dont like doctors.

 

[FlowRate]

Maybe, would love to see the article again but I don't pay for news. I thought it was based on household income though. Idk how they could accurately determine actual net worth on a large scale like that...

Good point. I did some digging. IPUMS is basically census data and does not have wealth information. There are sources for wealth information (Federal Reserve Survey of Consumer Finances), but I'm not sure if there's sufficient info in that survey to make the chart referenced and IPUMS is what they did reference in the chart. In other words, NYT was probably using the worth wealth semi-wrong in that infographic/article. Whereas they have used it more specifically in other pieces on distribution of income and distribution of wealth.

 

[MedMan80]

I'm a little frustrated at how little i am making, however i get solace in the lower hours i have to do at this PHP job. Once the kids are a little older I will venture my little feet into private practice..

 

[OMSWeebHours]

I'm a little frustrated at how little i am making, however i get solace in the lower hours i have to do at this PHP job. Once the kids are a little older I will venture my little feet into private practice..

what are the hours like? Tbh I wouldn't mind making on the relatively lower end if there's a lot more time

 

[MedMan80]

what are the hours like? Tbh I wouldn't mind making on the relatively lower end if there's a lot more time

30-40hr a week, more on the lower end

 

[OMSWeebHours]

30-40hr a week, more on the lower end

Sounds very good, my goal is to work a normal schedule eventually even if I have to put a bit more time in early on (probably not like the 80 hour weeks though, part of the reason I could never do surgery despite some procedures being interesting lol) and make less than other specialties (still being a physician pays pretty well regardless for the most part)

 

[finalpsychyear]

I'm a little frustrated at how little i am making, however i get solace in the lower hours i have to do at this PHP job. Once the kids are a little older I will venture my little feet into private practice..

Are you at least getting median pay for the field if you are full time hours?

 

[jbomba]

I’d actually argue being good at your job can very easily create flywheel of more opportunities to make more money. So if you want to make more money focusing on doing a good job is a great way to do it. It’s how I’ve picked up all my work and turned down many more opportunities. I just slowly slide in be nice, work well with my team, treat my patients, don’t get complaints and slowly I have more offers for coverage. Then do a good job when I cover and all of a sudden someone else has some work etc etc. So for those that want to maximize their monetary opportunities they should for sure focus on doing a good job not just straight volume.

Or the very sick IP which make it very clear very quickly if you’re doing a good job or not.

Fully agree with the top. I think what's even more, or the most important, is being likeable. I chat it up with everyone. I make everyone feel like I'm their friend. I've been told by medical directors, oh the nurses think you're great, which has led to more shifts being offered to me, better standing in their eyes, a referral to another job I am considering. I'm way less formal than all of my residency attendings were but it seems to resonate with staff and patients. This has been the best thing to get me in the door and patients continuing to come back.

Learning to network/schmooze is a great tool that will take you far. I did a bunch of this in my life before a change to medicine and it seems like it translates well. I think we (in medicine) hammer home professionalism and can get too worried about saying the wrong thing at times, which can come across as stiff to other people and patients. I'm sure I say stupid things or look like an idiot at times but overall this lower key approach has helped on the job/money front.

 

[MedMan80]

Are you at least getting median pay for the field if you are full time hours?

yup

 

[calvinhobbes]

Friend makes 450k inpatient child psych. Very possible just need to be willing to leave a bigger city

 

[EastSide]

If that is your goal look for an inpt role that has the ability to start early and end by 1-2pm and then scoot to your next afternoon gig be that locums, outpt or telehealth.

None of my attendings leave this early. Although I have read many anecdotal stories on attendings leaving after rounds (7a-1p), how common is this really? Specifically in the NE or the east coast.

Do you see this changing in the future as psych will become saturated and there would be fresh grads willing to work from 8-5pm?

 

[FlowRate]

None of my attendings leave this early. Although I have read many anecdotal stories on attendings leaving after rounds (7a-1p), how common is this really? Specifically in the NE or the east coast.

Do you see this changing in the future as psych will become saturated and there would be fresh grads willing to work from 8-5pm?

Most of my attendings were content with pretty cush inpatient gigs many of them got grandfathered into. They did low amounts of work and just hung around to be available if residents had any questions.

One of my attendings was, a little to his detriment, really interested in working hard. He did inpatient stuff in the morning and PHP/outpatient/substance use stuff in the afternoon. He was mostly not available except by brief call for inpatient related stuff after 1PM. Several other attendings at the other unit we worked at who also seemed to be much less available after around 2PM.

 

[Stagg737]

None of my attendings leave this early. Although I have read many anecdotal stories on attendings leaving after rounds (7a-1p), how common is this really? Specifically in the NE or the east coast.

Do you see this changing in the future as psych will become saturated and there would be fresh grads willing to work from 8-5pm?

Can't speak specifically to NE/east but in the midwest (and most places from those I've talked to) it's quite common. A typical FT inpatient load (<12 patients) should not take you significantly past noon unless you're doing a lot of therapy with them or are arriving late. Almost all the inpatient docs I talk with are either leaving well before 5pm (typically well before 3pm) or see higher patient volumes and get paid for it.

I don't see this changing unless the fresh grads are just unfocused or inefficient with their work or allow themselves to be abused. I actually speak directly with our PGY-3's and 4's about job expectations when I work with them.

 

[sloh]

Can't speak specifically to NE/east but in the midwest (and most places from those I've talked to) it's quite common. A typical FT inpatient load (
I don't see this changing unless the fresh grads are just unfocused or inefficient with their work or allow themselves to be abused. I actually speak directly with our PGY-3's and 4's about job expectations when I work with them.

What time do they get in and start rounding?

 

[Candidate2017]

None of my attendings leave this early. Although I have read many anecdotal stories on attendings leaving after rounds (7a-1p), how common is this really?

If your attending stays after rounds, here's a general rule of thumb: They're a lazy bum and/or dumb.

When you grow up, don't be a lazy or dumb attending. Go cover a 2nd unit or go to clinic. In medicine, we round on patients then leave (yes, contrary to popular belief, psych is part of medicine). Does IM or surgery hang around after rounding? No, they go to clinic or OR.

Please remember leaving the unit =/= done working. Notes, orders, admissions, answering calls and pages, catching up on sleep after being on call all night/all week (attendings do not have work hour restrictions), and sometimes floor/ED consults etc. are all part of post-round work. In a resident program, most of the work is handled by residents, hence if your attending is hanging around, they're a lazy bum.

Hanging around after rounding also encourages bad behavior from patients such as asking to talk with doctor yet again (e.g., argue) about why they don't need meds except for controlled substances, why they aren't manic, why they need to be discharged today. It also encourages bad behavior from nurses such as punting every patient request to the doctor instead of setting boundaries.

 

[comp1]

So as you're probably all aware, the VA has tours of duty. You stay (or are immediately available by telehealth) during your tour of duty. For outpatient, it's pretty clear as they schedule patients during your tour of duty. It can be a bit disorienting for people coming from inpatient in other systems because you also still...stay during your tour of duty. Good managers will spread meetings throughout the day so that you're productive the whole time. They'll have med floor or ED consults built in so that you aren't just seeing inpatients and the flow is a bit more variable. I do agree that nurses setting boundaries is really important and it's also really important to not always run to them whenever a patient asks to see you. However, the tour of duty setup allows you to really help educate both nurses and other medical specialties about how to handle things themselves throughout the day. My main point is that sometimes attendings are actually being paid to stay after rounds.

 

[sloh]

So as you're probably all aware, the VA has tours of duty. You stay (or are immediately available by telehealth) during your tour of duty. For outpatient, it's pretty clear as they schedule patients during your tour of duty. It can be a bit disorienting for people coming from inpatient in other systems because you also still...stay during your tour of duty. Good managers will spread meetings throughout the day so that you're productive the whole time. They'll have have consults built in so that you aren't just seeing inpatients and the flow is a bit more variable. I do agree that nurses setting boundaries is really important and it's also really important to not always run to them whenever a patient asks to see you. However, the tour of duty setup allows you to really help educate both nurses and other medical specialties about how to handle things themselves throughout the day. My main point is that sometimes attendings are actually being paid to stay after rounds.

Parkinson’s Law: work expands to fill the time available for its completion.

 

[comp1]

Parkinson’s Law: work expands to fill the time available for its completion.

Eh, plus/minus in government. It really has to deal with how well the manager manages things.

 

[brazilianpsych]

At my place attendings cannot leave after rounding. They have to stay till 4pm. It does not really matter because there is a no compete, so people cannot work at other places anyway.

 

[psychmd03]

At my place attendings cannot leave after rounding. They have to stay till 4pm. It does not really matter because there is a no compete, so people cannot work at other places anyway.

Why would anyone take a job like that? A non complete plus making you stay all day to twiddle your thumbs while losing out on a chance to make a good chunk more money or pick up a hobby.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Why would anyone take a job like that? A non complete plus making you stay all day to twiddle your thumbs while losing out on a chance to make a good chunk more money or pick up a hobby.

You’d be surprised. This is relatively common. People are willing to read or relax at work to keep an easier gig.

 

[Bartelby]

You’d be surprised. This is relatively common. People are willing to read or relax at work to keep an easier gig.

Agreed. Let's say you make $300k to work an 8-4 job where you do high-quality work, have time to spare, and virtually never stay late or find the work you need to do spilling outside of the bounds of work. You can also do CME, literature reviews, just relaxing, whatever you'd like aside from paid work during that time. Doesn't seem too terrible to me.

Some people are going to insist on working as hard as possible to make much more, but if you can be happy with a typical salary this kind of setup isn't bad.

 

[SmallBird]

Agreed. Let's say you make $300k to work an 8-4 job where you do high-quality work, have time to spare, and virtually never stay late or find the work you need to do spilling outside of the bounds of work. You can also do CME, literature reviews, just relaxing, whatever you'd like aside from paid work during that time. Doesn't seem too terrible to me.

Some people are going to insist on working as hard as possible to make much more, but if you can be happy with a typical salary this kind of setup isn't bad.

But I think the best option is to find a setup that is as you say but where they don’t really mind if you leave early to go relax. I get very antsy by 2pm and this is a great time to go and telework.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Agreed. Let's say you make $300k to work an 8-4 job where you do high-quality work, have time to spare, and virtually never stay late or find the work you need to do spilling outside of the bounds of work. You can also do CME, literature reviews, just relaxing, whatever you'd like aside from paid work during that time. Doesn't seem too terrible to me.

Some people are going to insist on working as hard as possible to make much more, but if you can be happy with a typical salary this kind of setup isn't bad.

I can't wait to work those hours 4 days a week in about 5 years as I gradually sunset into scaling back ideally most from home. Glad i started more intense it's tough to do it the other way imo.

 

[Merovinge]

Agreed. Let's say you make $300k to work an 8-4 job where you do high-quality work, have time to spare, and virtually never stay late or find the work you need to do spilling outside of the bounds of work. You can also do CME, literature reviews, just relaxing, whatever you'd like aside from paid work during that time. Doesn't seem too terrible to me.

Some people are going to insist on working as hard as possible to make much more, but if you can be happy with a typical salary this kind of setup isn't bad.

Absolutely, this is very common for hospitalists who cannot leave until swing shift takes over, but are often done with work and either waiting for an admission or just hanging out in case of emergency. One of my good friends has a job that is basically exactly what you just described and he's certainly happy with his career.

 

[Marasmus1]

Agreed. Let's say you make $300k to work an 8-4 job where you do high-quality work, have time to spare, and virtually never stay late or find the work you need to do spilling outside of the bounds of work. You can also do CME, literature reviews, just relaxing, whatever you'd like aside from paid work during that time. Doesn't seem too terrible to me.

Some people are going to insist on working as hard as possible to make much more, but if you can be happy with a typical salary this kind of setup isn't bad.

That`s me except that I make low 200s (however, moonlighting here and there brings it to 260k). Full time Outpatient Psych. On average, I see 1 to 2 patients a day. Rest of the time is divided by research, teaching at med school, teaching resident and fellow didactics and individual supervision with fellows. I opted myself out of the admin work other than once a month departmental faculty meeting. No admin oversight. Whether I teach or research completely depends on me on that particular week as long as I stay scholarly productive and residents like me. On top of that I use 9 weeks of PTO annually.

It is all about perspective I believe. Some may find this setup laziness and being dumb. I would not exchange it with any commercially posted jobs

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

That`s me except that I make low 200s (however, moonlighting here and there brings it to 260k). Full time Outpatient Psych. On average, I see 1 to 2 patients a day. Rest of the time is divided by research, teaching at med school, teaching resident and fellow didactics and individual supervision with fellows. I opted myself out of the admin work other than once a month departmental faculty meeting. No admin oversight. Whether I teach or research completely depends on me on that particular week as long as I stay scholarly productive and residents like me. On top of that I use 9 weeks of PTO annually.

It is all about perspective I believe. Some may find this setup laziness and being dumb. I would not exchange it with any commercially posted jobs

Ha I mean I'd take 200K to see 1-2 patients a day and give lectures, I don't think any of the academic jobs I've known of are anywhere near that though.

 

[Stagg737]

Why would anyone take a job like that? A non complete plus making you stay all day to twiddle your thumbs while losing out on a chance to make a good chunk more money or pick up a hobby.

Keep in mind the person you're responding to is still a resident. Their academic attendings may have other responsibilities outside of patient care (research, teaching, committees, etc) that they fill that time with (I do). I agree that for a private job that policy sucks, but academia is different.

That`s me except that I make low 200s (however, moonlighting here and there brings it to 260k). Full time Outpatient Psych. On average, I see 1 to 2 patients a day. Rest of the time is divided by research, teaching at med school, teaching resident and fellow didactics and individual supervision with fellows. I opted myself out of the admin work other than once a month departmental faculty meeting. No admin oversight. Whether I teach or research completely depends on me on that particular week as long as I stay scholarly productive and residents like me. On top of that I use 9 weeks of PTO annually.

It is all about perspective I believe. Some may find this setup laziness and being dumb. I would not exchange it with any commercially posted jobs

I remember when you were posting looking for advice about this position. Glad it worked out for you and that you're enjoying it so much.

 

[brazilianpsych]

Keep in mind the person you're responding to is still a resident. Their academic attendings may have other responsibilities outside of patient care (research, teaching, committees, etc) that they fill that time with (I do). I agree that for a private job that policy sucks, but academia is different.


I remember when you were posting looking for advice about this position. Glad it worked out for you and that you're enjoying it so much.

That is correct, although most of the people in my hospital don't do research. Teaching may be like 1h a month or something. Random meetings and committees yes. People mostly get the job because they are fresh-grad or they are from a different state and have zero networking around here. Almost everyone falls into one of these two categories.

 

[Merovinge]

That`s me except that I make low 200s (however, moonlighting here and there brings it to 260k). Full time Outpatient Psych. On average, I see 1 to 2 patients a day. Rest of the time is divided by research, teaching at med school, teaching resident and fellow didactics and individual supervision with fellows. I opted myself out of the admin work other than once a month departmental faculty meeting. No admin oversight. Whether I teach or research completely depends on me on that particular week as long as I stay scholarly productive and residents like me. On top of that I use 9 weeks of PTO annually.

It is all about perspective I believe. Some may find this setup laziness and being dumb. I would not exchange it with any commercially posted jobs

Assuming you are doing real research that is pushing forward clinical medicine and take seriously the job of training the next generation of psychiatrists, anyone calling you lazy is a f***ing idiot.

Lazy is working for an insurance company denying claims to give people the care they need to live and recover from mental illness. Clinical research is the bedrock that I rely upon to take care of patients all day and I appreciate every MD, PhD, research assistant, nurse, grant writer, journal editor, and everyone else involved in the process.

 

[Candidate2017]

It is all about perspective I believe. Some may find this setup laziness and being dumb. I would not exchange it with any commercially posted jobs

Looks like my "lazy and dumb" comment has taken a life of its own. To clarify, I'm responding regarding the resident's attendings:

Residents are doing most/all of the work, and if their attendings are just sitting around post-rounds instead of actually doing something (clinic, research, golf), that is kind of lazy.

OTOH if a community doc can get a chill gig, then that's pretty smart because it frees you up to purse other activities you may enjoy, which may or may not involve psychiatry, additional jobs, or other monetary pursuits.

At my place attendings cannot leave after rounding. They have to stay till 4pm. It does not really matter because there is a no compete, so people cannot work at other places anyway.

Physicians traditionally round at hospitals then leave, but remain available by pager. Unfortunately, a number of psychiatrists believe taking up the yoke of employed status is nice. But as an employee, you may need to punch the clock. However, I guarantee your CMO and CEO enjoy long lunches outside the hospital as well as afternoons golfing. Heck, go ahead and invite them out on your dime. While they're out lunching and golfing with you, none of them will ask why you aren't still at the hospital.

Also, non-competes are dumb. They wouldn't exist if enough physicians said no.