How does Pharm school affect RESIDENCY?

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Drex

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I have a few acceptances, some fully accredited (LECOM, Midwestern, Nova, Creighton), some on the way but I keep them in the running because I like their location, curriculum, new innovative facilities, etc (Chicago State, Concordia, Belmont University). If I go to a school with candidate status when I enroll [or even when I graduate] will residency programs look down on me?

What can I do at a not-yet accredited school to make myself more competitive for residency? I am looking at Northwestern, University of Chicago, Loyola, or Rush for residencies, which I am sure are very competitive... hope to go into drug research and discovery in the looooong run.

Any advise would be GREATLY appreciated :xf:
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Drex said:
I have a few acceptances, some fully accredited (LECOM, Midwestern, Nova, Creighton), some on the way but I keep them in the running because I like their location, curriculum, new innovative facilities, etc (Chicago State, Concordia, Belmont University). If I go to a school with candidate status when I enroll [or even when I graduate] will residency programs look down on me?

What can I do at a not-yet accredited school to make myself more competitive for residency? I am looking at Northwestern, University of Chicago, Loyola, or Rush for residencies, which I am sure are very competitive... hope to go into drug research and discovery in the looooong run.

Any advise would be GREATLY appreciated :xf:
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If you want to do drug discovery, a PharmD won't help you with that and neither will a residency. By all means go to an accredited school....we didn't even look at candidates from non-accredited schools this year as we had well over a 100 applications. That might not be true for all programs.

Chicago is a very competitive area for residency training. I wasn't aware that Loyola even had a residency program.
 
I don't think it matters where you went to pharmacy school. I think it matters more about what you do during your studies (i.e. extracurricular activities) and your grades. I'd say more so on you being a well rounded candidate. I'd stay clear of unaccredited programs, but I've never heard of a program not getting accredited. I know there were hiccups with the Univ of HI program years ago, however, it gained accreditation. School selection should be based on what you find is your best fit. You have plenty of time to make yourself a strong candidate for a PGY1 in several years.


FYI: Loyola doesn't have a PGY1.
 
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If you want to work in drug discover then you need a PhD not a PharmD. Maybe consider programs that have dual PharmD/PhD opportunities. Pharmacists can help with clinical trials but are not involved in the synthesis of drugs.
 
KARM12 said:
If you want to do drug discovery, a PharmD won't help you with that and neither will a residency. By all means go to an accredited school....we didn't even look at candidates from non-accredited schools this year as we had well over a 100 applications. That might not be true for all programs.

Chicago is a very competitive area for residency training. I wasn't aware that Loyola even had a residency program.
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I have read from many reputable sources that pharmacists go to work in the pharmaceutical industry as researchers. This isn't true? Or just very uncommon? If not, I may consider getting a PhD somewhere down the road.

Who do you mean by "we"? Are you working for the admissions for a residency program? Or is that information available to you as a resident?

How competitive is it to get a residency? What do admissions really focus on most? What if the school is just accredited when I graduate?
 
Drex said:
I have read from many reputable sources that pharmacists go to work in the pharmaceutical industry as researchers. This isn't true? Or just very uncommon? If not, I may consider getting a PhD somewhere down the road.
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PharmD's involved with industry research are usually "Clinical Researcher" involved in running clinical trials-- NOT drug discovery.

Drex said:
Who do you mean by "we"? Are you working for the admissions for a residency program? Or is that information available to you as a resident?
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At my school, current students are part of the interview teams for p-school applicants, and current residents are part of the interview teams for residency applicants.[/quote]

Drex said:
How competitive is it to get a residency? What do admissions really focus on most? What if the school is just accredited when I graduate?
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Varies from program to program and year to year depending on applicant pool.
 
From those programs, I've heard the best things about Creighton. As to whether residencies will look down upon your school, the answer is possibly. This is just because these programs know what to expect from students from established programs, and they don't know what to expect from newer programs. Unless a new program is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper, go to a fully-accredited program. Even then, I'd still think about going to a program with a better reputation.

Residency won't help you with drug discovery, you usually need a PhD for that. Residency WILL help you with medical affairs/regulatory affairs/drug information. I went to a pharmaceutical company for 2 hrs last semester (scientific communications/medical affairs) and they said that they really like hiring clinical specialists.
 
It most likely would matter. Unlike medicine, there is no standardize test that students take during pharmacy school so it is difficult to compare students from different schools. However, most of these residency trained pharmacists graduated from established schools so they tend to trust candidates that are also attending similar schools.
 
Drex said:
I have a few acceptances, some fully accredited (LECOM, Midwestern, Nova, Creighton), some on the way but I keep them in the running because I like their location, curriculum, new innovative facilities, etc (Chicago State, Concordia, Belmont University). If I go to a school with candidate status when I enroll [or even when I graduate] will residency programs look down on me?

What can I do at a not-yet accredited school to make myself more competitive for residency? I am looking at Northwestern, University of Chicago, Loyola, or Rush for residencies, which I am sure are very competitive... hope to go into drug research and discovery in the looooong run.

Any advise would be GREATLY appreciated :xf:
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Have you asked each of the programs what their ties are to "drug research and discovery?" You will want mentors to help guide you, so consider asking each program what they can do to foster your learning. Maybe going to a school with a masters degree program in either pharmacology or clinical research would benefit you. You don't have to pursue another degree, but it would at least give you options for job shadowing or summer work.

Pharmacy school is a long process, and you are likely to change your mind several times about what you want to do with your degree when you get out. I think going to a program with history, i.e. an accredited program, can place you in the hands of well-connected alums when you're looking for rotation sites or job placement. In certain circles, going to the right school and knowing the right people makes a difference.
 
This is a long ways away from now for you, but if you know for sure want to go into industry then you want to do a fellowship rather than a residency after pharmacy school. Since the pharmaceutical companies have their own fellowships they can train how they want and expose you to all sorts of different areas within the company.

But like everyone else said, drug discovery needs a PhD. Designing/managing/coordinating clinical trials and applying PK/PD data does not though.
 
p-rog said:
This is a long ways away from now for you, but if you know for sure want to go into industry then you want to do a fellowship rather than a residency after pharmacy school. Since the pharmaceutical companies have their own fellowships they can train how they want and expose you to all sorts of different areas within the company.

But like everyone else said, drug discovery needs a PhD. Designing/managing/coordinating clinical trials and applying PK/PD data does not though.
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Ah I see, thank you p-rog!

Whats the big difference between residency and fellowship? Can you get fellowship without a residency?

More info:
I guess when it really comes down to it I just love to research; literature review, write research papers, coming up with theses and I would like to be involved with studies and contribute to them with my background in science, not just pharmacy practice. Specifically, I want to research neurodegenerative disease. I have a degree in physics and neuroscience, and I am doing research at northwestern this summer. So I have other interests besides just working with patients.

That said, does anyone know if I would sufficient opportunities as a PharmD? Even if just doing part time research, or in my free time. Its not even necessarily something I would demand to be paid much for, I just want to contribute to advancements at some point in my life...
 
http://www.accp.com/resandfel/index.aspx

ACCP has a directory of residencies and fellowships. If you follow the link above, read "about residency training programs" and "guidelines for clinical research fellowship training programs." Then, click "search directory" and play around a bit. There's nothing specifically for neurology on there (unless you count AD at OSU or geri at Pitt), but at least you can get a feel for what a PharmD fellowship can offer.

I would also encourage you to just Google stuff... I know it sounds silly, but that's probably where you'll find most of your information. You are likely to come across a lot of dead ends in terms of neurology fellowships since many are now PhD or MD oriented or have lost their funding. If memory serves though, there should still be a PharmD/PhD friendly program at Minnesota, and I think Colorado offers a combined residency/fellowship in neurology... Double check me on those though. There's also a relatively new unaccredited neurology residency/fellowship at the LA VA that I know exists and is supposedly fantastic.

Moving on, you can theoretically do a clinical research fellowship without a residency. It all depends on the program's requirements though. In my opinion, residency training won't hurt you and, especially if you're trying to focus your research, it can only help you. It sounds more like you're into clinical research than bench research, but maybe I'm misinterpreting your post. You're probably going to be looking in academia if you want part-time research as a non-tenure track faculty member. The VA has full-time pharmacist researchers at some sites, but opportunities for collaboration should be available at most hospital practice sites, especially those that are university-based or just have solid physician researchers on board. Ultimately, it's your call, but here's some food for thought if you're not sure PharmD is the way to go...

***an S, et al. The State of Science and Research in Clinical Pharmacy.
​
Pharmacotherapy 2006;26(7):1027–1040.​


Bauman J, et al. Pharm.D.-Only Investigators Are Critical to the Profession: Let's Preserve the Fellowship as an Equally Important Way to Prepare Future Clinical Pharmaceutical Scientists Or the Case Against the "All-Ph.D." Pharmacotherapy 2009;29(2):129–133.​

 
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Drex said:
Ah I see, thank you p-rog!

Whats the big difference between residency and fellowship? Can you get fellowship without a residency?

More info:
I guess when it really comes down to it I just love to research; literature review, write research papers, coming up with theses and I would like to be involved with studies and contribute to them with my background in science, not just pharmacy practice. Specifically, I want to research neurodegenerative disease. I have a degree in physics and neuroscience, and I am doing research at northwestern this summer. So I have other interests besides just working with patients.

That said, does anyone know if I would sufficient opportunities as a PharmD? Even if just doing part time research, or in my free time. Its not even necessarily something I would demand to be paid much for, I just want to contribute to advancements at some point in my life...
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If you are really interested in doing research get a PhD or an MD. There will be many more opportunities available to you. You can definitely still do research as a PharmD but many times it is more clinical trial stuff or social and administrative science. If you are interested in neurodegenerative disease research get an MD.
 
sleazye said:
If you are really interested in doing research get a PhD or an MD. There will be many more opportunities available to you. You can definitely still do research as a PharmD but many times it is more clinical trial stuff or social and administrative science. If you are interested in neurodegenerative disease research get an MD.
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I hate to admit it, but Sleazye may be right in the long run, at least depending on how much and what kind of research the OP is planning to do. I hope this summer research work helps the OP decide what's really going to be the best fit. I guess for me, the pharmacology stuff is most interesting, so I'm glad I got a PharmD and I will use it to the best of my ability to get NIH funding and do meaningful clinical research. We are somewhat limited in terms of getting our research to reach beyond the walls of pharmacy practice, but I think getting into an academic setting or hooking up with solid mentors can really make a difference in the type and depth of research the OP can do as a PharmD.

Drex, if you're into PD research, try to hook up with Tanya Simuni's group while you're at Northwestern. She's an MD, very well published and very open to pharmacy input. I definitely know where Sleazye is coming from, but it is still possible to do research in neurodegenerative diseases with a PharmD... The names that come to my mind are JJ Chen from Pacific and Melody Ryan out of Kentucky. Check out the publications these 3 medical professionals have under their belts and see where your interests and ego fit. Most importantly though, ask a lot of questions this summer. I cannot stress enough that good mentorship is key.

As for the non-PD stuff (I'm into geri, so pediatric epilepsy is beyond my scope of practice...) and lab-based research (I'm more into the clinical realm), I'm admittedly MUCH less familiar with those arenas.
 
I can't thank all of you enough.. I am definitely going to make some important decisions over the summer.

I am seriously considering the Creighton distance pathway because I will be free to move about the country if I want to get extra research experience in specific fields that I can't find near my school. Unfortunately it seems like too few PhamD students want to go into research so traditional schools have limited research opportunities and connections. I think Creighton is more open to IPPEs and APPEs in various settings of the students choice, ie research settings. Maybe this would increase my chances of getting a residency and/or fellowship.

Does anyone have any advice about the distance program? From what I learned, distance students have higher undergrad stats and NAPLEX pass rates than the campus students at Creighton... so the only hinderance would be a residency/fellowship's perception of a "distance program".

Lastly, I found this article that others interested in research may find interesting. After reading it I feel like it may be a good idea to just go ahead with the PharmD and try to pave my way into biomedical research.

http://www.nigms.nih.gov/News/Reports/pharmd_12132006.htm

And if anyone reads it... I was confused about the suggestion that PharmD's get postdoctoral experience in a Phd format... is this even possible??
 
Drex said:
I can't thank all of you enough.. I am definitely going to make some important decisions over the summer.

I am seriously considering the Creighton distance pathway because I will be free to move about the country if I want to get extra research experience in specific fields that I can't find near my school. Unfortunately it seems like too few PhamD students want to go into research so traditional schools have limited research opportunities and connections. I think Creighton is more open to IPPEs and APPEs in various settings of the students choice, ie research settings. Maybe this would increase my chances of getting a residency and/or fellowship.

Does anyone have any advice about the distance program? From what I learned, distance students have higher undergrad stats and NAPLEX pass rates than the campus students at Creighton... so the only hinderance would be a residency/fellowship's perception of a "distance program".

Lastly, I found this article that others interested in research may find interesting. After reading it I feel like it may be a good idea to just go ahead with the PharmD and try to pave my way into biomedical research.

http://www.nigms.nih.gov/News/Reports/pharmd_12132006.htm

And if anyone reads it... I was confused about the suggestion that PharmD's get postdoctoral experience in a Phd format... is this even possible??
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In all honesty, I don't know much about Creighton...but do they specifically list "distance program" on your transcript? You are being provided all the same educational opportunities and would still be required to do rotations. One downside I can think of is not making as strong of relationships with faculty? Not sure if that is true though.
 
There is no distinction between the campus and distance transcripts, which is reassuring...

I agree with you about the relationship with faculty, but I am sure that if I want those relationships I can make them happen via e-mail, 2-week lab sessions and getting involved in their research...

Will consider your input! Thanks!
 
Wait, every school that graduates its first class will be fully accredited right? So unless you are the very FIRST class to graduate, every applicant to a residency will be from an accredited school. Even the very first class to graduate will have technically graduated from an accredited school. It's IMPOSSIBLE to graduate from an unaccredited school...

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
boltdude said:
Wait, every school that graduates its first class will be fully accredited right? So unless you are the very FIRST class to graduate, every applicant to a residency will be from an accredited school. Even the very first class to graduate will have technically graduated from an accredited school. It's IMPOSSIBLE to graduate from an unaccredited school...

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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actually, you can graduate from an unaccredited school you just can't practice pharmacy (i think there may be a way around this by getting some sort of certification).
 
boltdude said:
Wait, every school that graduates its first class will be fully accredited right? So unless you are the very FIRST class to graduate, every applicant to a residency will be from an accredited school. Even the very first class to graduate will have technically graduated from an accredited school. It's IMPOSSIBLE to graduate from an unaccredited school...

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Actually there is one exception I am aware of: Appalachian COP graduated 2 classes before they were awarded full accreditation. For what reason, I don't know.
 
I believe that everyone must graduate from a school with an accreditiation status of "Candidate" of full. So no accreditation (like the HI school) and "pre-candidate" status at the time of graduation wont allow you to sit for the NAPLEX (from what I assume) but I am sure there are ways around it, like waiting for the school to upgrade status then taking the exam.
 
weetzie00 said:
Actually there is one exception I am aware of: Appalachian COP graduated 2 classes before they were awarded full accreditation. For what reason, I don't know.
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LLU also didn't get full accreditation after its first class. I'd have to double-check, but UCSD may fit into that category as well. There is a difference between unaccredited and not fully accredited. Candidate status school aren't unaccredited, they're just not fully accredited. As for it's affect on your ability to sit for the boards, that I'm unsure of.
 
You can take the boards as long as the school has candidate status, if I recall.
 
lazydazy said:
If you want to work in drug discover then you need a PhD not a PharmD. Maybe consider programs that have dual PharmD/PhD opportunities. Pharmacists can help with clinical trials but are not involved in the synthesis of drugs.
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a PhD in what?
 
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