How exactly do you answer "What is a DO?"

[MedPR]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I'd say buy the cheaper car. Honestly tuition at DO school, with the exception of lecom is just ridiculous. Md private schools are less than most DO schools.

So you would take less free money?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[MedPR]

KCOM...you know...your top choice.








the jimmies are strong with this one.

Also idk if I indicated that KCOM was my top choice, but going into the cycle CCOM was really my top choice.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[NeuroLAX]

Md private schools are less than most DO schools.

No. They are comparable. Some are more.

 

[MedPR]

PS. Read the very first reply to this thread.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[SLC]

Almost all instances? You've looked up that many academic calendars?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

This is more or less common knowledge among med-students, especially around step 1 time when everyone starts coveting the dedicated study time that other schools offer their students (because the MS2 coursework is finished).

 

[MedPR]

This is more or less common knowledge among med-students.

Truthfully I haven't looked through many academic calendars but I know for sure that three MD schools run MS1 from late july/early Aug to end of May and MS2 from early Aug to mid May. Perhaps these are the exceptions you were referring to but that would be an odd coincidence.

Edit: and as far as time in the classroom you and I both know that varies by curriculum and not by MD vs DO.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[SLC]

My understanding has always been that OMM is taught at the expense of some minutiae. If that's wrong, then it's wrong. I've just seen nothing that indicates otherwise.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

When do your classes start this fall? When do they end?

Compare notes with your average 1st year DO student and see what you learn.

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

OMM is the weapon of an osteopathic physician. Not as clumsy or random as a scalpel. A more elegant weapon for a more civilized age.

Haha, there can never be enough star wars grafted into SDN...never. Well put! 😎

I don't know why, but today seems like it's gonna be a great daaaaaaaayyyy...

 

[GypsyHummus]

So you would take less free money?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

Nah, I'd prolly take the more free money unless it was from like a family member. Then I would feel bad about taking their money lol

MedPR, go to MD school if u want. Who cares what some people on an anonymous forum say. Talk it over with ur fam and SO. You dont need to justify yourself to us.

As a hermit living on Tatoonie once said "you must do what you feel is right"

 

[NeuroLAX]

MD private schools are less than most DO schools.

No. They are comparable. Some are more.

In case you are interested: https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/report.cfm?select_control=PRI&year_of_study=2012

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

Forgive my ignorance, but is it the case that osteopathic students lose class time in basic sciences, or are we referring to OMM training as time that may otherwise have been spent studying independently?

I don't know why, but today seems like it's gonna be a great daaaaaaaayyyy...

 

[MedPR]

When do your classes start this fall? When do they end?

Compare notes with your average 1st year DO student and see what you learn.

One school begins classes end of July and ends first week of June.

The other begins mid august and ends last week of May.

Edit: DMU starts mid Aug, ends late May.
KCOM begins mid august ends late may
CCOM begins early Aug ends late may
AZCOM begins early Aug ends early/mid May.

Seems pretty standard to me. 200 hours is 25 8 hour days. I'm assuming that class time will vary by curriculum but all the same big picture material is covered over each academic year at every school. If DO schools don't sacrifice some (not alot) basic sciences to do OMM then shouldn't your school year be at least 25 days longer than MD?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[Ost3oclast]

Wow the hostility rose quickly while I was gone....so so quick.

 

[SLC]

One school begins classes end of July and ends first week of June.

The other begins mid august and ends last week of May.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

That's a full 2 months shorter than my OMS1 was.

I thought I went August to June last year but I just looked at my 1st year calendar and we went July11th 2011 till June 22nd 2012, a 336 day academic year.

 

[MedPR]

That's a full 2 months shorter than my OMS1 was.

I thought I went August to June last year but I just looked at my 1st year calendar and we went July11th 2011 till June 22nd 2012, a 336 day academic year.

That's atypical for DO unless the schools I listed are anomalies.

Edit: However, a July-July school year does make me believe that SOMA does not skimp on basic sciences in order to teach OMM. I'm just not so sure this is true across the board for DO.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[NeuroLAX]

That's atypical for DO unless the schools I listed are anomalies.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

I will have summer classes this summer as well. 4 weeks vacation between summer sessions and a weekend after summer II/before M2.

 

[racerwad]

My understanding has always been that OMM is taught at the expense of some minutiae. If that's wrong, then it's wrong. I've just seen nothing that indicates otherwise.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

As usual, you are wrong.

At DO schools, we "invest" 200 additional hours on OMM. Otherwise, our education would not meet the standards of ACGME residencies and we'd have an even tougher time getting into them.

The basic science curricula at MD and DO schools cover all of the same core material. Otherwise, we would never be licensed to the same level or (in theory) have access to the same residencies.

Even if you didn't know the specific details of accreditation, wouldn't taking a couple of moments to think about the implications of 200 hours of less basic science education bring you to a logical conclusion? That if that were true, DOs truly would be < MDs. By 200 hours, give or take 😉

 

[Ost3oclast]

That's atypical for DO unless the schools I listed are anomalies.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

I must point out that, it can be school dependent. From what current students have told me, OMM is not really emphasized at azcom. Sure they have a minimum they must meet but they really minimize OMM compared to many other schools. So maybe the start dates for different schools depend on the amount of OMM in the schedule? Who knows....

 

[racerwad]

That's atypical for DO unless the schools I listed are anomalies.

Edit: However, a July-July school year does make me believe that SOMA does not skimp on basic sciences in order to teach OMM. I'm just not so sure this is true across the board for DO.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

My MS-1 at Western was August 3rd to June 17th (I think?). Many of my MD friends got out around a month earlier...hmmm...

 

[MedPR]

As usual, you are wrong.

At DO schools, we "invest" 200 additional hours on OMM. Otherwise, our education would not meet the standards of ACGME residencies and we'd have an even tougher time getting into them.

The basic science curricula at MD and DO schools cover all of the same core material. Otherwise, we would never be licensed to the same level or (in theory) have access to the same residencies.

Even if you didn't know the specific details of accreditation, wouldn't taking a couple of moments to think about the implications of 200 hours of less basic science education bring you to a logical conclusion? That if that were true, DOs truly would be < MDs. By 200 hours, give or take 😉

As usual you have to make this into a more hostile thread. I was having an amicable discussion with SLC and here you come.

Anyway, I don't think it's logical to say DO<MD even if DOs did 200 less hours of minutiae. So no, a couple of moments to think about the implications of 200 less hours would not lead me to that conclusion.

 

[DrWily]

My MS-1 at Western was August 3rd to June 17th (I think?). Many of my MD friends got out around a month earlier...hmmm...

Many of your DO friends (can I be your DO friend) also get out a month earlier (me, May 17th this year).

 

[Ost3oclast]

Many of your DO friends (can I be your DO friend) also get out a month earlier (me, May 17th this year).

Were you an MS-1? I'm really starting to look at the summer research over there for my first year summer break.

 

[racerwad]

Forgive my ignorance, but is it the case that osteopathic students lose class time in basic sciences, or are we referring to OMM training as time that may otherwise have been spent studying independently?

I don't know why, but today seems like it's gonna be a great daaaaaaaayyyy...

I think this is a subtle point that many pre-meds don't consider.

When I started, I didn't mind the idea of taking an extra class in OMM. Even though it is a lot easier than other basic science classes, not making a fool of yourself in the labs and written exams does take a decent amount of time. That is time you're losing from studying, sleep, or doing whatever it is that makes you, you. It's worth thinking about.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Many of your DO friends (can I be your DO friend) also get out a month earlier (me, May 17th this year).

Do you have all of summer off? I guess that means Nova has a longer schedule than I thought compared to other schools. We have two summer sessions with 4 weeks break between the two. Plus a generous weekend before M2 year lol.

 

[DrWily]

Also, I was always under the impression that MD schools teach for the USMLE, and DO schools teach for the COMLEX, which are two different beasts. So one might assume that an emphasis is placed on certain subjects like micro and biochem and (one more, forgot) more heavily @ an MD school in lieu of OMM training since you know, COMLEX has OMM and USMLE does not.

 

[racerwad]

Many of your DO friends (can I be your DO friend) also get out a month earlier (me, May 17th this year).

🙁

Many of my DO friends who happen to go to AZCOM (which is where I assume you're going). I actually really like Western's block schedule during the academic year, but when it gets close to breaks, the way AZCOM packs it into their quarters really pays off.

Ugh.

DO friends for life 👍 Maybe one day I'll correct a somatic dysfunction in you that your allo doctors refused to acknowledge through lympathic technique.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

I think this is a subtle point that many pre-meds don't consider.

When I started, I didn't mind the idea of taking an extra class in OMM. Even though it is a lot easier than other basic science classes, not making a fool of yourself in the labs and written exams does take a decent amount of time. That is time you're losing from studying, sleep, or doing whatever it is that makes you, you. It's worth thinking about.

But remember....that extra time in OMM also earns you the right to say you are basically MD+.















I kid. Don't get sad MedPR.

 

[MedPR]

Also, I was always under the impression that MD schools teach for the USMLE, and DO schools teach for the COMLEX, which are two different beasts. So one might assume that an emphasis is placed on certain subjects like micro and biochem and (one more, forgot) more heavily @ an MD school in lieu of OMM training since you know, COMLEX has OMM and USMLE does not.

Idk, I have read complaints in the school specific threads (by current med students at those schools) that their MD school doesn't teach for USMLE as much as they teach minutiae. I'm sure some DO students have the same problem with COMLEX/minutiae.

 

[DrWily]

Were you an MS-1? I'm really starting to look at the summer research over there for my first year summer break.

I'm an MS-1 right now. I'm just starting to look at research opportunities at this moment.

Do you have all of summer off? I guess that means Nova has a longer schedule than I thought compared to other schools. We have two summer sessions with 4 weeks break between the two. Plus a generous weekend before M2 year lol.

yes, all of summer off. May 17th is last final, and we start MS-2 on Aug 27th. ~3.25 months baby

 

[MedPR]

But remember....that extra time in OMM also earns you the right to say you are basically MD+.
I kid. Don't get sad MedPR.

This sounds more like you. Those other posts had me thinking someone had hijacked your account.

 

[Ost3oclast]

I'm an MS-1 right now. I'm just starting to look at research opportunities at this moment.

What fields are you looking at? When I interviewed it seemed like they had a ton, a lot more than other schools.

 

[racerwad]

Also, I was always under the impression that MD schools teach for the USMLE, and DO schools teach for the COMLEX, which are two different beasts. So one might assume that an emphasis is placed on certain subjects like micro and biochem and (one more, forgot) more heavily @ an MD school in lieu of OMM training since you know, COMLEX has OMM and USMLE does not.

I believe that this is indeed true, with a heterogenous distribution among schools and what they think is "important."

I only am disputing that somehow DO schools cut out 200 hours from basic sciences and then convinced the AGCME that those 200 hours "were the silly ones."

 

[Mr Kenobi]

This sounds more like you. Those other posts had me thinking someone had hijacked your account.

Bumblebee is on probation so I lent him my account info

 

[NeuroLAX]

yes, all of summer off. May 17th is last final, and we start MS-2 on Aug 27th. ~3.25 months baby

Lucky you. 3.25 months is awesome time to do research and other stuff.

 

[racerwad]

But remember....that extra time in OMM also earns you the right to say you are basically MD+.

I kid. Don't get sad MedPR.

Maybe I'll try and become an MD200. Sounds like a rocket. Or a washing machine.

 

[DrWily]

🙁

Many of my DO friends who happen to go to AZCOM (which is where I assume you're going). I actually really like Western's block schedule during the academic year, but when it gets close to breaks, the way AZCOM packs it into their quarters really pays off.

Ugh.

DO friends for life 👍 Maybe one day I'll correct a somatic dysfunction in you that your allo doctors refused to acknowledge through lympathic technique.

Yes, AZCOM 🙂 I have a buddy at Western said he would kill to have our vacation schedule. It's nice to have a good break between quarters to rest and recharge.

What fields are you looking at? When I interviewed it seemed like they had a ton, a lot more than other schools.

I don't know. All of the faculty on campus usually have more basic science oriented research which tends to take forever to get something out of. I haven't seen much clinically oriented research which is where you want to be at. I'm just scratching at the surface though so I still need to dive deeper. Trying to look into something to do with anesthesia or derm (lol)

 

[MedPR]

I believe that this is indeed true, with a heterogenous distribution among schools and what they think is "important."

I only am disputing that somehow DO schools cut out 200 hours from basic sciences and then convinced the AGCME that those 200 hours "were the silly ones."

As usual I'm basing this off no real knowledge and only an attempt to be logical, but I don't think much convincing would be necessary.

How can you (the ACGME) quantify the amount of hours being taught or the material learned during pre-clin? PBL curriculum will have much less class time and much more "free" time for students to learn compared to a traditional curriculum. I think I said it in an earlier post, and if I didn't I should have, but I think the OMM hours at DO schools are spent as hours of minutiae at MD schools. Meaning, DO schools pick OMM over more or less worthless details that MD students will forget anyway. I never tried to argue that DO students don't learn all the important big picture stuff.

 

[Ravizzle]

To answer OP's question:

To average joes I explain DO as exact same as MD, but it also includes some chiropractic-esque stuff in the curriculum.

If someone asks for more details I explain the whole OMM thing and/or the history of how it got started etc...

The whole DOs are more holistic thing is a bunch of baloney in my opinion.

Sent from my Galaxy S2

 

[MedPR]

Bumblebee is on probation so I lent him my account info

Is he really? Is that worse than post hold?

 

[DrWily]

Bumblebee is on probation so I lent him my account info

Ahmg, I laff'd. Bumblebee hooo man.. I don't even

 

[racerwad]

Yes, AZCOM 🙂 I have a buddy at Western said he would kill to have our vacation schedule. It's nice to have a good break between quarters to rest and recharge.

Yeah, count me as another jealous one.

However, I like my two tests a month the rest of the year. Overall, I think I made the right choice for me, but I love AZCOM. It's a great program and the weather right now is perfect there. I miss it.

 

[Ravizzle]

yes, all of summer off. May 17th is last final, and we start MS-2 on Aug 27th. ~3.25 months baby

That is awesome! Have to admit I'm a bit jealous.

Sent from my Galaxy S2

 

[DrWily]

To answer OP's question:

To average joes I explain DO as exact same as MD, but it also includes some chiropractic-esque stuff in the curriculum.

If someone asks for more details I explain the whole OMM thing and/or the history of how it got started etc...

The whole DOs are more holistic thing is a bunch of baloney in my opinion.

Sent from my Galaxy S2

In general, I would try to stay away from saying "Chiropractic" anywhere near OMM. It's really not. HVLA is such a minor (but important) tool in the toolbox. I've learned so much more soft-tissue technique, muscle energy, counterstrain, etc etc than I have HVLA. Not many people like to tolerate HVLA when they can get a nice "massage" instead. Everyone has their different techniques they like, but my go-to is muscle energy. I always see near immediate results with that one. Mostly with HVLA it's like "did it pop? do you feel better?" "no" "oh.. okay.jpg"

I'm only MS-1 so maybe there's more HVLA ahead, who knows.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Is he really? Is that worse than post hold?

Ya man. I went into that derm thread to see what finally got it locked up and under his name was "probationary status" in red. I think it was the last picture he posted because it said it was erased his original post stating (deleted by mod for in appropriate content).

I have no idea of the severity of those holds and probation status things. Your hold was yellow or orange and his probation is in red font below the username...so I assume it is worse just by color association. Haha.

Should I start a save Dr Bumblebee thread

 

[MedPR]

Ya man. I went into that derm thread to see what finally got it locked up and under his name was "probationary status" in red. I think it was the last picture he posted because it said it was erased his original post stating (deleted by mod for in appropriate content).

I have no idea of the severity of those holds and probation status things. Your hold was yellow or orange and his probation is in red font below the username...so I assume it is worse just by color association. Haha.

Should I start a save Dr Bumblebee thread

Do it. I'd get banned if I started one.

 

[racerwad]

As usual I'm basing this off no real knowledge and only an attempt to be logical, but I don't think much convincing would be necessary.

How can you (the ACGME) quantify the amount of hours being taught or the material learned during pre-clin? PBL curriculum will have much less class time and much more "free" time for students to learn compared to a traditional curriculum. I think I said it in an earlier post, and if I didn't I should have, but I think the OMM hours at DO schools are spent as hours of minutiae at MD schools. Meaning, DO schools pick OMM over more or less worthless details that MD students will forget anyway. I never tried to argue that DO students don't learn all the important big picture stuff.

Well, I'm being unfair if I implied that DO schools cover all the big picture stuff. Sometimes I wonder if they know what board they're referring to when they say, "oh this here is board relevant."

Anyhow, for accreditation, the schools must show that they provide a minimum number of hours of "asses in lecture seat" time (credit hours) and how/what they plan on going over during those hours. It's covered in painstaking detail in each class's syllabus. In many of my system based classes, we have time blocked out for "independent study" for a specific class. I asked about this (because I thought it seemed silly) and was told that those independent study hours counted towards the credit hour criteria. Perhaps the PBL programs are similar?

Logic-wise, I understand where you started. But, how could the ACGME let in students to their programs if they spent less time on material? If that were the case, anyone could just take the USMLE and, assuming their board scores were sufficient, apply to ACGME residencies. I know the LCME would be pissed.

Anyhow, the AOA/COCA have to demonstrate through their accreditation process that their schools provide equivalent education (via credit hours) to LCME schools. Imagine the $hitstorm it would cause if osteopathic schools really did somehow spend 200 less hours teaching basic science material and replaced it with largely untested folk medicine? I'm not going to lie, that would be kinda awesome!

 

[NeuroLAX]

In general, I would try to stay away from saying "Chiropractic" anywhere near OMM. It's really not. HVLA is such a minor (but important) tool in the toolbox. I've learned so much more soft-tissue technique, muscle energy, counterstrain, etc etc than I have HVLA. Not many people like to tolerate HVLA when they can get a nice "massage" instead. Everyone has their different techniques they like, but my go-to is muscle energy. I always see near immediate results with that one. Mostly with HVLA it's like "did it pop? do you feel better?" "no" "oh.. okay.jpg"

I'm only MS-1 so maybe there's more HVLA ahead, who knows.

What HVLA have they taught you? We're covering lumbar HVLA now, the first HVLA we've had.

 

[DrWily]

Let me whip out my practical study guide (OMM practical next weds and I have tons of techniques I need to study):

AA HVLA
OA HVLA (flexed and extended)
Kirksville Krunch (thoracic)
Pisiform thrust (thoracic)
Chin Pivot HVLA
Modified Knee in Back HVLA (lol)
Lumbar on side HVLA
Lumbar walk around HVLA
Pubic dysfunction HVLA "shotgun pubes"

I will be tested on only ONE of these on my practical but obviously need to know them all. That's just for the HVLA station. Also need to memorize about 32 other techniques (ME, CS, MFR, soft tissue, Still Techniques) for the 2nd station.

FML

 

[Mr Kenobi]

As usual I'm basing this off no real knowledge and only an attempt to be logical, but I don't think much convincing would be necessary.

How can you (the ACGME) quantify the amount of hours being taught or the material learned during pre-clin? PBL curriculum will have much less class time and much more "free" time for students to learn compared to a traditional curriculum. I think I said it in an earlier post, and if I didn't I should have, but I think the OMM hours at DO schools are spent as hours of minutiae at MD schools. Meaning, DO schools pick OMM over more or less worthless details that MD students will forget anyway. I never tried to argue that DO students don't learn all the important big picture stuff.

To be fair, you did say DO student miss out on "relevant" medical sciences in place of OMM in this thread in response to CopToEM's post.

Do it. I'd get banned if I started one.

We can just post bad memes the entire time to honor his memory. Just talking about it is tearing me up...from laughing.

 

[MedPR]

Well, I'm being unfair if I implied that DO schools cover all the big picture stuff. Sometimes I wonder if they know what board they're referring to when they say, "oh this here is board relevant."

Anyhow, for accreditation, the schools must show that they provide a minimum number of hours of "asses in lecture seat" time (credit hours) and how/what they plan on going over during those hours. It's covered in painstaking detail in each class's syllabus. In many of my system based classes, we have time blocked out for "independent study" for a specific class. I asked about this (because I thought it seemed silly) and was told that those independent study hours counted towards the credit hour criteria. Perhaps the PBL programs are similar?

Logic-wise, I understand where you started. But, how could the ACGME let in students to their programs if they spent less time on material? If that were the case, anyone could just take the USMLE and, assuming their board scores were sufficient, apply to ACGME residencies. I know the LCME would be pissed.

Anyhow, the AOA/COCA have to demonstrate through their accreditation process that their schools provide equivalent education (via credit hours) to LCME schools. Imagine the $hitstorm it would cause if osteopathic schools really did somehow spend 200 less hours teaching basic science material and replaced it with largely untested folk medicine? I'm not going to lie, that would be kinda awesome!

This all makes sense, thanks. While on this topic, I'm very curious why board scores vary so much from school to school (not talking about MD vs DO when it comes to USMLE).

Let me whip out my practical study guide (OMM practical next weds and I have tons of techniques I need to study):

AA HVLA
OA HVLA (flexed and extended)
Kirksville Krunch (thoracic)
Pisiform thrust (thoracic)
Chin Pivot HVLA
Modified Knee in Back HVLA (lol)
Lumbar on side HVLA
Lumbar walk around HVLA
Pubic dysfunction HVLA "shotgun pubes"

I will be tested on only ONE of these on my practical but obviously need to know them all. That's just for the HVLA station. Also need to memorize about 32 other techniques (ME, CS, MFR, soft tissue, Still Techniques) for the 2nd station.

FML

I didn't know there were so many OMM techniques. I like working with my hands as much as the next guy, but if you have 41 techniques to memorize by this point in MS1 I don't think I would do very well in OMM class.