How important are audition rotations?

[FlyingShamu]

I'm a third year currently trying to plan my fourth year electives. At this point, I'm pretty sure I will either go into family or IM. I am torn between setting up my electives at residency sites of interest, and doing them in something that will either help make me a better IM/family doc (ex, peds, radiology) or something neat that I'll never see again (ex, forensic pathology).

I only have three electives that are before residency applications are due, but I also have two required IM rotations and one required family rotation. So those could be auditions of sorts.

What do you guys think? Are audition rotations necessary for these specialties? For what its worth, I'm a B student with COMLEX level I somewhere in the 515-530 range. Don't want to give out my exact stats.

Thanks for your input!

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[Conjuctiva]

edit

 

[Bacchus]

The majority of family medicine residencies are about fit. Programs, based on your stats, will interview you for the most part. However, you have to establish fit in just that interview. If you rotate through the site it's much easier to establish you're a normal, well adjusted and friendly person. If you commit to FM I would rotate through your top 3.

 

[EmergDoc2B]

At our site, EM residency, if you do an audition rotation its an automatic interview. I'm sure there are some minimums that must be met (good board scores ect) but the the majority that audition here in hopes of getting into our program are granted an interview

 

[mimelim]

At our site, EM residency, if you do an audition rotation its an automatic interview. I'm sure there are some minimums that must be met (good board scores ect) but the the majority that audition here in hopes of getting into our program are granted an interview

I'm pretty sure most programs, regardless of specialty give courtesy interviews to people who did aways at their program. That having been said, I was told by at least 2 PDs on the trail that those rotations hurt a lot of applicants. Courtesy interviews are a waste of your and the program's time. If you weren't good enough to make the cut for an interview normally, they aren't going to rank you very high if at all.

 

[RadOnc04]

I'm pretty sure most programs, regardless of specialty give courtesy interviews to people who did aways at their program. That having been said, I was told by at least 2 PDs on the trail that those rotations hurt a lot of applicants. Courtesy interviews are a waste of your and the program's time. If you weren't good enough to make the cut for an interview normally, they aren't going to rank you very high if at all.

I know this is true for some specialities but def not for all. In Rad Onc, I had friends who did multiple away rotations and did not get interviews at any/or only some. I had a friend who did Urology aways and got 0/2 interviews.

It varies a lot by speciality. (Btw, these were pretty normal people). I think that for competitive specialities, even if you blow them away on an away rotation, it does not necessarily make up for a sub-par Step 1 and/or lack of research publications. It can however, push you over the top (or bring you down) if you were borderline.

 

[kindasorta]

The only business you have doing an audition is at a program that's out of your league. Anything else is foolish. Absolutely foolish.

 

[Textbookversion]

The only business you have doing an audition is at a program that's out of your league. Anything else is foolish. Absolutely foolish.

True for MD. Not true for the DO folks who want to do an AOA residency in a competitive specialty. AOA programs in a variety of specialties largely only interview those that do audition rotations.

 

[kindasorta]

True for MD. Not true for the DO folks who want to do an AOA residency in a competitive specialty. AOA programs in a variety of specialties largely only interview those that do audition rotations.

Agreed.

 

[futurdoc12345]

True for MD. Not true for the DO folks who want to do an AOA residency in a competitive specialty. AOA programs in a variety of specialties largely only interview those that do audition rotations.

Yeah that happens now, but with the new changes about to occur in 2015, does anyone think this will change, or will DO PDs still care more about audition rotations, or become more like MD PDs?

 

[Textbookversion]

Yeah that happens now, but with the new changes about to occur in 2015, does anyone think this will change, or will DO PDs still care more about audition rotations, or become more like MD PDs?

LOL AOA program directors changing their ways? No. Absolutely not. And especially not because the ACGME ate them.

 

[link2swim06]

The only business you have doing an audition is at a program that's out of your league. Anything else is foolish. Absolutely foolish.

Because it would hurt your chances at that program? Or it's a waste of time?

 

[GoSpursGo]

Because it would hurt your chances at that program? Or it's a waste of time?

Keep in mind that this is specialty-dependent. I know for EM, an audition rotation (maybe 2) *somewhere* is expected and necessary to get the "standard letter of recommendation" (SLOR) that is expected with your application. I know that many of my ortho friends and others going into surgical subspecialties seem to have done a number of away rotations. Doesn't mean you're screwed at programs that you don't audition at, just means they want to see how people view you when you're not at your home institution where they are already invested in you succeeding and looking good. Your PD and mentors in your field of interest can let you know if an away is expected.

That said, if you're not in a field where an away is "expected," I think I would only do an away if you have a really good reason for wanting to go there (ie trying to move back closer to family, significant other with a job there, etc) or if you're trying to get your foot in the door at a very competitive program. Away rotations are very expensive; if on the whole you are a competitive applicant for the program you are thinking of auditioning at, there isn't a whole lot of reason to pay through the nose to audition there when you could just as easily try and impress them on your interview day like most applicants. Remember, an audition rotation can certainly hurt you; if you have a rough time learning that place's computer system overnight, or struggle with juggling your audition while you're filling out ERAS, or just wind up with a team that you don't click with, you can wind up screwed through little fault of your own. Of course, if you shine you can be golden, but again unless you have a really good reason for wanting to go to that specific program why are you paying so much for something that can be as much of a crapshoot as a regular interview?

 

[sivman17]

My recommendation would be to only do an audition rotation at a place that 1) you would really want to do residency, and 2) you think you would have a tough time receiving an interview from them otherwise. For example, I only did one away rotation and it was at a place that I would really like to end up for residency. I have good board scores and a decent application, but I was still a bit concerned about receiving an interview there. Like others have said, you have a pretty good shot of getting an interview if you do a rotation there, whether it's because they grant courtesy interviews to students who rotate there, or perhaps they realize you are very interested in their program and you are a good candidate, which sometimes doesn't come across well on an application. Oh, and I was granted an interview at the place I did an away.

 

[p30doc]

I did not get an interview at my away, they told us they don't grant them just because you rotated there. I'm still irked by it though. However more importantly I got a LOR from my specialty of choice and have been told on several interviews that it is very strong. This ended up being a better result than a courtesy interview at a place that wouldn't seriously consider me anyway.

 

[BlueElmo]

Should I do an away at a place I want to be at as early as possible when 4th year starts or do a sub-I at my home institution first before the away? Does it really matter which one I do first as long as they are done before interview season starts?

 

[Dissected]

Should I do an away at a place I want to be at as early as possible when 4th year starts or do a sub-I at my home institution first before the away? Does it really matter which one I do first as long as they are done before interview season starts?

If you are planning on getting a letter out of it, do it as early as you can.

 

[Stellar Clouds]

Should I do an away at a place I want to be at as early as possible when 4th year starts or do a sub-I at my home institution first before the away? Does it really matter which one I do first as long as they are done before interview season starts?

I've heard many people say that you should do the sub-I at home first, followed immediately by your away. This way you are really on top of your game for the away rotation.

 

[JJMrK]

This is specialty dependent. For the two that the OP mentioned, audition/away rotations are typically not required, though I feel like more and more people are doing 1 or 2. For some of the competitive surgical sub-specialties (though not all of them) aways are basically a requirement. You should talk to an adviser in your field of interest about 4th year electives.

Should I do an away at a place I want to be at as early as possible when 4th year starts or do a sub-I at my home institution first before the away? Does it really matter which one I do first as long as they are done before interview season starts?

I'd do the home first. If anybody is interested in helping you succeed it's going to be your home program. You can learn the ropes there and then go shine when you do your away.

 

[Siverhideo1985]

I would argue that the decision whether to do an away is less based on what specialty you want to go into or how competitive the residency is at the place your are considering going for a month. IMO, it should mostly be based on your current track record of clinical performance...if you have been struggling in your basic clerkships, for whatever reasons, you should ask yourself if you will be likely to leave a good impression. In my experience, some people get the "game" of third year and those do well overall...at home and on aways. Some people just aren't that professional/social/easily-liked personality that makes it so easy to excel in clinical rotations. You have to know yourself well, be able to assess your strengths and weaknesses and discern the risks/benefits of doing an away. Problem is that a lot of people who struggle in clinical rotations don't have the social self-awareness to realize why they are not getting all honors.

 

[Euthymia]

I recently contacted a non-vsas program to see if they could pencil me in for a sub-I and was told their spots were already reserved for their home students. How common is this?

 

[laconfidential]

I recently contacted a non-vsas program to see if they could pencil me in for a sub-I and was told their spots were already reserved for their home students. How common is this?

For a sub-I? Very common. Very few places open their spots to visiting students.

 

[Raryn]

I recently contacted a non-vsas program to see if they could pencil me in for a sub-I and was told their spots were already reserved for their home students. How common is this?

Depends on the specialty. Some are quite used to away subis (surgical subspecialties especially). Some (IM in particular) rarely have applicants do away subis AND it's a requirement for many of their own students to do the rotation, so they simply don't allow visiting students to do subis. If you're applying IM and want to do an away (and I have absolutely no idea why you would want to), you might be better served with some kind of subspecialty service.

 

[Trogghunter]

I do not understand this issue of doing a rotation to show that you 'fit in'. What about for away spots at MD programs? I scored 650+ on step one, 6' white male, all conference NCAA athlete, and I can make a good first impression on an interview.

My school has made errors on two of my away rotation application to programs that take comlex vs usmle, which resulted in me missing the deadlines for Acting Internship rotations by ~2 weeks. I am beyond infuriated. It just seems like more stress than it is worth.

advice would be nice- the clerkship coordinator got aggressive with me even though she looked at my away application and said 'wow i never make that mistake'..right in front of me.
about shat my pants.
thanks a lot

 

[mimelim]

I do not understand this issue of doing a rotation to show that you 'fit in'. What about for away spots at MD programs? I scored 650+ on step one, 6' white male, all conference NCAA athlete, and I can make a good first impression on an interview.

My school has made errors on two of my away rotation application to programs that take comlex vs usmle, which resulted in me missing the deadlines for Acting Internship rotations by ~2 weeks. I am beyond infuriated. It just seems like more stress than it is worth.

advice would be nice- the clerkship coordinator got aggressive with me even though she looked at my away application and said 'wow i never make that mistake'..right in front of me.
about shat my pants.
thanks a lot

I understand that English may not be your first language, but you will get a better response if your post makes a little more sense.

 

[Trogghunter]

I understand that English may not be your first language, but you will get a better response if your post makes a little more sense.

english is my third language...did not realize that my question was so vague, and i realize that there are intangibles to every application.
basically...

DO with good stats + personable/friendly + no red flags = gets an interview/likely to match WITHOUT AWAY ROTATION at MD IM/EM/FM program?

I have not seen many match stats.

 

[evilbooyaa]

english is my third language...did not realize that my question was so vague, and i realize that there are intangibles to every application.
basically...

DO with good stats + personable/friendly + no red flags = gets an interview/likely to match WITHOUT AWAY ROTATION at MD IM/EM/FM program?

I have not seen many match stats.

Depends on the competitiveness of the program is all I can tell you.

 

[GoSpursGo]

english is my third language...did not realize that my question was so vague, and i realize that there are intangibles to every application.
basically...

DO with good stats + personable/friendly + no red flags = gets an interview/likely to match WITHOUT AWAY ROTATION at MD IM/EM/FM program?

I have not seen many match stats.

Also probably depends on your interview day. You can be personable/friendly and still have an interviewer that you just don't click with. Definitely had a few of those on the interview trail, despite the fact that the vast majority of my interviews were fine.

For EM specifically, I think you would be in a lot of trouble without an away. As explained above, EM is definitely one of the specialties where doing an away/getting a SLOR is essentially expected; not having a SLOR essentially *IS* a red flag.