How important is Med School Tier when matching into PM&R

[p9142]

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Hello all. I am just a lowly MS0 who will be attending school next fall. I have done research in Rehab and I am very interested in this field. Obviously I can't be certain that this specialty is for me yet, but I would like to have that option available to me in the future. I have been accepted by schools from different tier ranges, and I was wondering what you all thought about how important your med school is when matching. When interviewing at the top schools the student guides all seemed to think it was the number one thing, and at the lower schools they thought it didn't matter. Go figure. Anyways, if you have any advice I would really appreciate it.

 

[p9142]

No one has any input on this? I would really appreciate some advice. I guess the main question I am asking is: how competitive is PM&R, and is it necessary to go to a school with a good PM&R program to match into the top residencies?

 

[Taus]

From everything that I have read and heard (keep in mind I'm only an MS2).....it really doesn't matter very much, if at all. The field is getting more competative in recent years, but its still supposed to be one where purely numbers and the prestige of your school aren't the most important criteria (ie your personality, fit w/ the program, letters of rec, etc matter a lot).

 

[axm397]

Hello all. I am just a lowly MS0 who will be attending school next fall. I have done research in Rehab and I am very interested in this field. Obviously I can't be certain that this specialty is for me yet, but I would like to have that option available to me in the future. I have been accepted by schools from different tier ranges, and I was wondering what you all thought about how important your med school is when matching. When interviewing at the top schools the student guides all seemed to think it was the number one thing, and at the lower schools they thought it didn't matter. Go figure. Anyways, if you have any advice I would really appreciate it.

would advice weighing the advantages of going to a top tier school vs possible cons - i.e. cost, location.

I dont' think you should base your medical school choice on your possible career in PM&R. You have plenty of time to change your mind and I wouldn't want you to choose to go to a certain school just because you think it would be good for PM&R and then change your mind and regret your decision later.

If you want to keep as many options open, then go to the higher tier school. if cost or location is a concern, then choose accordingly.

In my class we have DOs and MDs from all over the country ranging from Harvard med to state med schools.

 

[JEB4]

I'll offer my opinion based on my experiences so far (MS4 on the interview trail). I don't think the name of the school matters too much. So far at my interviews, candidates have been from all sorts of schools. I really think it is more important that you have shown interest in PM&R and have good letters (preferably one from a physiatrist). Like anything, doing better in school (grades, board scores etc.) will increase your chances at the more competitive programs, but I think relative to other fields, the straight numbers aren't as important as how well you work with others and whether or not you have demonstrated interest/shown an understanding and appreciation for what PM&R is. I have only been on 2 rehab interviews so far, so my opinion is based on those experiences and what I've been told from others. Hope that helps.

 

[p9142]

Thanks for the help Taus, axm397, and JEB4. My main concern is research opportunities at the lower tiered schools. I have heard that some specialties almost require you to have a decent amount of research in the field (derm, neurosurg, etc. . .) in order to match. My fear is that my research opportunities will be next to nothing at the lower tiered school (no PM&R department.) However, I prefer everything else about the lower tiered school (location, teaching, price, etc . . .)

 

[JEB4]

I forgot to mention in mys last post that I think it would be really benfeicial to go to a school that has a PM&R department. It would allow you to do research if you wanted to. I don't think that research is necessary to match into PM&R. I think some programs care more about it than others, but in general I wouldn't say it's necessary like it is in Derm or neurosurg etc. It would also allow you to do a rotation to see if you actually like it and get a good letter of recommendation.

 

[PMR TX MS]

Med School Tier does matter. However, your individual profile also matters just as much. Someone coming from a Tier 1 school w/ low board scores, no activities, and poor grades will have a difficult time. However, if you are an "average applicant" from a Tier 1, you will be treated differently than an "average applicant" from a Tier 3 school. School reputations matter because program directors have biases just like everyone else.

 

[axm397]

Thanks for the help Taus, axm397, and JEB4. My main concern is research opportunities at the lower tiered schools. I have heard that some specialties almost require you to have a decent amount of research in the field (derm, neurosurg, etc. . .) in order to match. My fear is that my research opportunities will be next to nothing at the lower tiered school (no PM&R department.) However, I prefer everything else about the lower tiered school (location, teaching, price, etc . . .)

research is a plus but not a necessity. You can always find a private practice physiatrist in the area and ask to shadow him/her. May even be able to find an interesting case to write up. Can probably do neuro, ortho, or rheum type research and submit to PM&R journals. Can also work with therapists on research. search on the aapmr website to see if there are "mentors" in your area. PM me the specific med school and I may be able to suggest specific people.

Of course, things change and in 4 years when you will be applying it's hard to predict how competitive PM&R will be. At this time, it's really not too difficult to match into A PM&R program but difficult to match into a TOP PM&R program.

 

[p9142]

PM me the specific med school and I may be able to suggest specific people.

Thanks, I sent you a PM. Is there a way to find mentors on that website, or do I just contact Physiatrists in the area where I will be going to school?

 

[p9142]

I forgot to mention in mys last post that I think it would be really benfeicial to go to a school that has a PM&R department. It would allow you to do research if you wanted to. I don't think that research is necessary to match into PM&R. I think some programs care more about it than others, but in general I wouldn't say it's necessary like it is in Derm or neurosurg etc. It would also allow you to do a rotation to see if you actually like it and get a good letter of recommendation.

Do you think it is sufficient to go to a school with a Physical Therapy school? What I mean is, will I be able to do research with the Physical Therapy department which would help me in getting a top residency?

Also, could you do research with Anesthesiology which would help with matching into competitive residencies?

 

[p9142]

Do you think it is sufficient to go to a school with a Physical Therapy school? What I mean is, will I be able to do research with the Physical Therapy department which would help me in getting a top residency?

Also, could you do research with Anesthesiology which would help with matching into competitive residencies?

Bump.

Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not this is feasible?

 

[normalforce]

Why would you want to do research with anesthesiology when matching into PM&R. Why not neuro or rheum, that would make more sense.

Doing any research in general is going to be a plus. I did sex research (beat that) 😉

The point is that being involved with research within a PT program would probably help, just like with any other research. Don't go to a school just because of that though, there is always plenty of research to go around. Go to the school that you feel most comfortable with.

Best.

 

[axm397]

Bump.

Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not this is feasible?

Definitely feasible but better to have at least one physiatrist that you can work with - even if he/she just peripherally supervises your research - so you can ask that person for a letter of rec if you still choose to apply to PM&R your 4th yr.

Research by therapists are published heavily in PM&R literature - just look at Archives or the Journal. I think it will benefit you more than doing research with Anesthesiology. (unless you are undecided and think you may want to go into Anesthesiology. Otherwise, PDs are particularly sensitive about weeding out ppl who are using PM&R as a "back up" or applying to multiple specialilities because unsure.)


hope this helps

 

[p9142]

Why would you want to do research with anesthesiology when matching into PM&R. Why not neuro or rheum, that would make more sense.

I thought pain management was becoming a bigger part of PM&R, so I could do pain research with Anesthesiology.

 

[axm397]

I thought pain management was becoming a bigger part of PM&R, so I could do pain research with Anesthesiology.

you could - but be prepared to answer the why PM&R and why not anesthesiology question from both sides

 

[Disciple]

I thought pain management was becoming a bigger part of PM&R.

It is for private practice. In academics, "musculoskeletal" is about as far it's going to evolve.

Pain research (or any research for that matter) will always help, but don't expect it to do a whole lot unless it has something to do with "functional restoration".

 

[Hemisphere]

it may help to go to a school with a good pm&r dept that way easier to find a mentor who knows the ropes, get a good letter, etc.

that said, my med school had no pm&r residency and dept was one of the orthopedics and rehab departments.

still, i got all my LOR's doing "away rotations" and performed well.
i did research but not in pm&r... retrospectively research in PM&R probably would have been a little better.

you can do research over the summer, or do an away elective for research. Either way, pick the best school you get accepted at that still has a pm&r department, but you can do well coming from a variety of paths.

 

[axm397]

it may help to go to a school with a good pm&r dept that way easier to find a mentor who knows the ropes, get a good letter, etc.

that said, my med school had no pm&r residency and dept was one of the orthopedics and rehab departments.

still, i got all my LOR's doing "away rotations" and performed well.
i did research but not in pm&r... retrospectively research in PM&R probably would have been a little better.

you can do research over the summer, or do an away elective for research. Either way, pick the best school you get accepted at that still has a pm&r department, but you can do well coming from a variety of paths.

Oh yeah, that reminds me - there is an externship at RIC for med students during their 1st year summer - there are research opportunities then too. Could definitely look into doing that program to supplement your PM&R experience and help you get a "feel" for the field.

 

[psych psych]

Med school tier???

It has VERY VERY little bearing at all in PMR, i can prove this to you.

Look at Columbia/Cornell as a prime example...they accept Carribbean School medical school graduates

 

[eddo]

Med school tier???

It has VERY VERY little bearing at all in PMR, i can prove this to you.

Look at Columbia/Cornell as a prime example...they accept Carribbean School medical school graduates

Psych Psych...Your statement lacks any real proof of anything....with all do respect. Sure, Columbia and Cornell are well-respected medical centers with numerous great residency programs. I think few would consider Columbia/Cornell as among the top programs in PM&R to use as a "prime example"

In addition, I think the earlier posts in this thread made it clear already that programs consider your credentials as an individual rather than bias their decisions initially based on where you went to medical school.

I, for example, went to an osteopathic medical (DMU) which I'm sure is unheard of outside the osteopathic realm. However, I managed to get interviews among some of the top programs in the country. I chose and got my first choice at Stanford's program.

I think your statement has some derogatory connotations that I personally think are inappropriate toward Carribean (and perhaps osteopathic) medical students. No skin off my back...but I would watch the way you say things in the future on this forum.

 

[dc2md]

Med school tier???

It has VERY VERY little bearing at all in PMR, i can prove this to you.

Look at Columbia/Cornell as a prime example...they accept Carribbean School medical school graduates

Psych Psych,
Big opinions from someone with a 90 on step 1 and no research experience. If you're gonna talk sh1t at least come to the table with some solid credentials backing you up. I'd rather work with a solid caribbean grad than a pompous US grad any day.
dc2md

 

[bluesunlily]

"I, for example, went to an osteopathic medical (DMU) which I'm sure is unheard of outside the osteopathic realm. However, I managed to get interviews among some of the top programs in the country. I chose and got my first choice at Stanford's program."

I'm a 3rd year at UNECOM and have completely fallen in love with
PM&R after a rotation. I'm in the information gathering stage now...

Did you take the USMLE? I've only got COMLEX scores because I
expected to do FP/OMM. Do you feel USMLE scores are necessary
when matching to PM&R?

Do you feel there's any different between the osteopathic and
allopathic programs in terms of practicing your OMM as a physiatrist?

Thanks!!

 

[Hemisphere]

I think psych psycho misintepreted the question asked and
needs to stop forgetting to take haldol.

the question did not ask how important was the affialted medschool tier of a PM&R program.

They asked how important was medschool reputation for MATCHING into one of the top PM&R programs "eg big 6" AFTER graduating from medschool. 95% of what you do in medical school is NOT PM&R, so it can't hurt to go to a school with good reputation otherwise.

Furthermore columbia-cornell is by no means a poor program.
granted it is not one of the "big 7" or whatever that everyone talks about.
It is still one of the top 3 programs out of the 12 or so that are in NY.
IVY league affiliated PM&R programs are latecomers to the field of PM&R.
Still with their institutions' slant on the importance of research, and
close communications with specialistis in related areas such as ortho
and neurosurg, oncology, etc.
they will have much to add in the upcoming years to our field.

If you rank PM&R progs by subspecialty I think the "big 7"
might not hold. They
rank differently. Granted my area of interst is mostly
NY/NJ/PA. If you are talking SCI, talk to Kessler and Mt Sinai
look where the fellowships are. If TBI, the model systems are at
JFK and Temple, with kessler building in progress.
When it comes to low vision rehab the east
coast expert I know is at albert einstein.The guy
who wrote the chapters on "neurogenic bladder"
and who gives residents weekly "bladder rounds"
didactics it as NYU. Cancer rehab
there are experts at upenn, and sloan kettering at columbia.
transplant rehab would also pick ivy's given the amount
of transplants they do. Also for performing arts
medicine you need to go where the performers are.

When people talk the big 6 they are not looking at the whole
picture. They are trying to create a mold out of a field
that should not have one given its breadth, and catering
to mentality of ego. I admit I have attacked kessler in past.
I must apologize for this, Perhaps we will see some recurrence
of personal program attacks when the new applicants get
their match results, lol, but I am over this now and am looking
at teh bigger picture for my own future. Which probably is not
the same ideas for the next colleagues future.

To each their own success. We need to come together to strengthen
our field among the fields of medicine.

 

[joseppi]

"I, for example, went to an osteopathic medical (DMU) which I'm sure is unheard of outside the osteopathic realm. However, I managed to get interviews among some of the top programs in the country. I chose and got my first choice at Stanford's program."

I'm a 3rd year at UNECOM and have completely fallen in love with
PM&R after a rotation. I'm in the information gathering stage now...

Did you take the USMLE? I've only got COMLEX scores because I
expected to do FP/OMM. Do you feel USMLE scores are necessary
when matching to PM&R?

Do you feel there's any different between the osteopathic and
allopathic programs in terms of practicing your OMM as a physiatrist?

Thanks!!

Blusunlilly:
Re: your comlex v usmle? there are alot of prior posts regarding this exact issue, i wondered this myself when applying. Honestly you probably don't need USMLE, but if you are doing well on comlex why not take it? Essentially you are studying for the same exam. It eliminates any question the program may have about comlex. Also if your in your second year as step one is out of sight, as a DO you can take steps out of order (ie step II with out step I) as its not a requirement for our liscensing, it merely extra credit!
It evens out the decision process of the PD and also if you are looking at PGY2-4 programs v PGY1-4 you may secure a trasitional year spot or prelim spot in the same city as PGY2-4 making the moving process a whole lot easier. I actually reccomend the PGY1-4 programs, make more sense, you are integrated right from the begining, PGY1 rotations mean something for PM&R vs spending months on the medicine service admitting all night long....... Just my personal preference.

 

[p9142]

Medical Schools usually post their match list on the net. Do residency programs do the same?

I would like to know how many people match at RIC from top tier programs as compared to lower tiered programs.

 

[backup]

courtesy of casaelgato, from last year's match (not complete):

1. MD/UMDNJ-NJMS
2. MD/Penn State
3. MD/Pitt
4. MD/Duke
5. MD/UChicago
6. MD/Northwestern
7. MD/Upstate
8. MD/Rush
9. DO/CCOM
10,11,12 ?

 

[axm397]

Medical Schools usually post their match list on the net. Do residency programs do the same?

I would like to know how many people match at RIC from top tier programs as compared to lower tiered programs.

I don't know what you would consider top tier vs lower tier but here's the info for last year's match class:

MD - U Pitt
MD - SUNY
DO - CCOM
MD - Duke
MD - U of Chicago
MD - Rush
DO - AZCOM
MD - Loma Linda
MD - Northwestern
MD - VCU
MD - UMDNJ-NJMS
MD - Penn State

Unfortunately, I can't find info on the PGY2 class.

My class (PGY3) - am not sure about a couple but I think this is mostly correct:
MD - Northwestern x 4
MD - Penn State
MD - Georgia
DO - western
DO - CCOM
MD - Michigan State
MD - Harvard
MD - SUNY downstate
MD - Tulane

About half of us did rotations at RIC (the northwestern students are required to do at least a 2wk rotation) I think 2 or 3 of the PGY2 class did the RIC externship. Some have brothers or sisters who graduated from RIC.

Any questions about RIC pm me.

 

[p9142]

I don't know what you would consider top tier vs lower tier but here's the info for last year's match class:

Thanks for the information. I know that I sound like a whiney little premed with all my top tier vs bottom tier stuff. I have been spending way too much time in the premed forums where that is all anyone seems to care about.

Its nice to see from your list that people from a broad spectrum of schools get into RIC. I still have the issue of not being able to match my schedule to that of the RIC summer externship, but hopefully I could offset that by doing research at my school and a 4th year externship at RIC.

I appreciate everyone's input.👍

 

[eddo]

"I, for example, went to an osteopathic medical (DMU) which I'm sure is unheard of outside the osteopathic realm. However, I managed to get interviews among some of the top programs in the country. I chose and got my first choice at Stanford's program."

I'm a 3rd year at UNECOM and have completely fallen in love with
PM&R after a rotation. I'm in the information gathering stage now...

Did you take the USMLE? I've only got COMLEX scores because I
expected to do FP/OMM. Do you feel USMLE scores are necessary
when matching to PM&R?

Do you feel there's any different between the osteopathic and
allopathic programs in terms of practicing your OMM as a physiatrist?

Thanks!!

Hey bluesunlily,

I would agree with some extent to earlier comments about USMLE being an extra. However, I think the old mentality for West Coast programs still holds with variation depending on the program. In general, it is to your advantage to take the USMLE for west coast programs.

I think it is inherently the case because the West Coast is so dominated by the allopathic medical schools. Touro and Western are making strides, however, the UC's, USC, Stanford, U of W, OHSU have so much influence and a vast network that it will take time for the osteopathic profession to establish itself in non-primary care fields. However, by no means should you spend sleepless nights agonizing over whether or not to take the USMLE.

I think the USMLE is a better written exam. The passages are longer, but they provide you with better clues and information to determine the correct answer. I actually did much better on the USMLE Step 2 than on COMLEX Step 2 so it helped me.

In addition, I think irregardless of where the program is located in the country and where in the phantom tier it may be, the comfort of interpreting the COMLEX will rest on the residency program director and the committee that ranks you.

I think a lot of programs are embracing OMM and incorporating it into their didactics and clinical practice. When I interviewed at Baylor-UT Houston, the PD was completing an OMM module which they will add to their core curriculum. The attendings at Stanford embraced and appreciated OMM - I was encouraged to use them on patients, whom they noticed were benefiting and tolerating therapy better after treatments, and I was even asked to demonstrate techniques to residents/attendings.
Axm397 may provide you with better input, but I know the PD at RIC is an osteopathic physician. Therefore, I would assume there is a good bit of familiarity with the COMLEX there. What would you say Axm?

 

[axm397]

I think a lot of programs are embracing OMM and incorporating it into their didactics and clinical practice. When I interviewed at Baylor-UT Houston, the PD was completing an OMM module which they will add to their core curriculum. The attendings at Stanford embraced and appreciated OMM - I was encouraged to use them on patients, whom they noticed were benefiting and tolerating therapy better after treatments, and I was even asked to demonstrate techniques to residents/attendings.
Axm397 may provide you with better input, but I know the PD at RIC is an osteopathic physician. Therefore, I would assume there is a good bit of familiarity with the COMLEX there. What would you say Axm?

RIC also has an OMM curriculum. We have OMM fellows from a local Osteopathic med school come teach us residents the basics of OMM.

The PD is a DO so he probably would be more familiar with the COMLEX although I would think most PDs should be familiar with the COMLEX. When I spoke to my two DO classmates, one said she took the USMLE and the other said he didn't. The one who took the USMLE said that she felt some of the PDs at other programs(not RIC) felt that having a USMLE score helped them be able to compare her to other allopathic candidates. The one who didn't take it said he wouldn't want to go to a place that would only take a DO candidate who took the USMLE. Both matched at RIC. So I suppose if you want to play it safe and if you feel you need every advantage possible to strengthen your application, then take it - especially if you will be applying to a lot of programs. If you are focusing on matching at historically "DO friendly" programs and feel you are a strong enough candidate without the USMLE, then don't bother. It kind of depends on the situation I guess... sorry, no clear cut answer.

 

[drvlad2004]

The key thing for DOs is to score well on the COMLEX so that you do not have worry about the USMLE. Personally, the USMLE will not be necessary for PM&R unless you feel uncomfortable with your COMLEX score. Most of my classmates at NYCOM matched very well into PM&R without taking the COMLEX. That includes programs like Kessler.

 

[drusso]

I can not emphasize this point enough: Individual programs will be very straight forward with applicants about their board score preferences for DO applicants. Most programs are familiar with the COMLEX and will gladly accept them. They understand that DO students have to go "out of their way" to take both. Some might not be. Call/email and ask...

The exams are *WAY* more similar than they are different. Also, in terms of length, construction, and test endurance, the USMLE is "easier." Just pony up the $$ and take both. You will never be worse off for taking the USMLE; even if you completely screw it up!

I don't know why DO students stress about this issue. Maybe MCAT PTSD??

 

[Brooklyndo2.1]

I can not emphasize this point enough: Individual programs will be very straight forward with applicants about their board score preferences for DO applicants. Most programs are familiar with the COMLEX and will gladly accept them. They understand that DO students have to go "out of their way" to take both. Some might not be. Call/email and ask...

The exams are *WAY* more similar than they are different. Also, in terms of length, construction, and test endurance, the USMLE is "easier." Just pony up the $$ and take both. You will never be worse off for taking the USMLE; even if you completely screw it up!

I don't know why DO students stress about this issue. Maybe MCAT PTSD??

An interesting study may be on whether mcats/boards etc may cause ptsd

i tried once to do a study comparing first semester of med school to a ptsd event through questionaires, and lets just say it didnt pass the ::cough cough: irb (thought police)

 

[rehabilitator]

I personally think school tier is very important for PMR residency application. I came from a very good school, my board scores are so so, and I still got interviews from ALL of the top programs i applied too, even those in very desireable locations. the PD's often mention how good my school is. PD's like students from good schools, because it makes their program look strong.

Also, i hope that all the D.O.'s will take the usmle, especially if you want to go to a good program. infact i don't know why they don't, since you can take them close together. I'm a MD student, and I have seen how many MD residents/attendings do not respect DO schools. thus you need to take the usmle to be taken seriously. you have nothing to loose, because most programs expects you to do worse on the usmle, so it's no big deal even when you infact do worse. The fact is that most MD's view DO students as MD school rejects, although no DO's i've ever met admit to that. MD students actually frawn about a program when there's too many DO's, most think it's a sign of a weak program. bottom line, if you want to get my respect, then take my test to prove it. I know many DO's are smart people, but don't expect to receive the benefit of the doubt from MD's automatically.

 

[drusso]

Also, i hope that all the D.O.'s will take the usmle, especially if you want to go to a good program. infact i don't know why they don't, since you can take them close together. I'm a MD student, and I have seen how many MD residents/attendings do not respect DO schools. thus you need to take the usmle to be taken seriously. you have nothing to loose, because most programs expects you to do worse on the usmle, so it's no big deal even when you infact do worse. The fact is that most MD's view DO students as MD school rejects, although no DO's i've ever met admit to that. MD students actually frawn about a program when there's too many DO's, most think it's a sign of a weak program. bottom line, if you want to get my respect, then take my test to prove it. I know many DO's are smart people, but don't expect to receive the benefit of the doubt from MD's automatically.

This is such unbelievable crap I don't even know where to begin...

1) Ask James Sliwa, DO (the PD at RIC) if thinks DO schools are weak and produce weak residents. After you're finish talking to him...

http://www.ric.org/search/sliwa.php

2) Call Ross Zofonte, DO (the chairman of PM&R at Univ of Pittsburgh) and ask him if his faculty respects him (BTW, he's also on the Board of the American College of Osteopathic PM&R so be careful!). Then, just for kicks

http://www.rehabmedicine.pitt.edu/content.asp?id=711

3) Call Heidi Prather, DO who runs one of the most highly regarded MSK Medicine Fellowships in the country and ask her if she feels "taken seriously" or not. Follow-up with...

http://wuphysicians.wustl.edu/physician2.asp?PhysNum=2727

4) a little little research on Scott Nadler, DO (who recently passed away, but leaves a legacy in physiatric research that inspired a whole generation of PM&R researchers)

http://www.aapmr.org/passor/research/researchaward.htm

You get the drift??

 

[paz5559]

Yes, I get the drift - the exceptions prove the rule. While inartfully stated, what Rehabilitator said is not far off the make as far as perception goes amongst the average MD. PM&R is far more welcoming than the general MD community to DOs.

Is drusso correct that there are lots of tremendously talented DOs in our field? Absolutely. Does that mean there still isn't an extra hurdle DOs need to clear to command respect amongst their allopathic peers? Not so much.

This is such unbelievable crap I don't even know where to begin...

1) Ask James Sliwa, DO (the PD at RIC) if thinks DO schools are weak and produce weak residents. After you're finish talking to him...

http://www.ric.org/search/sliwa.php

2) Call Ross Zofonte, DO (the chairman of PM&R at Univ of Pittsburgh) and ask him if his faculty respects him (BTW, he's also on the Board of the American College of Osteopathic PM&R so be careful!). Then, just for kicks

http://www.rehabmedicine.pitt.edu/content.asp?id=711

3) Call Heidi Prather, DO who runs one of the most highly regarded MSK Medicine Fellowships in the country and ask her if she feels "taken seriously" or not. Follow-up with...

http://wuphysicians.wustl.edu/physician2.asp?PhysNum=2727

4) a little little research on Scott Nadler, DO (who recently passed away, but leaves a legacy in physiatric research that inspired a whole generation of PM&R researchers)

http://www.aapmr.org/passor/research/researchaward.htm

You get the drift??

 

[p9142]

I personally think school tier is very important for PMR residency application. I came from a very good school, my board scores are so so, and I still got interviews from ALL of the top programs i applied too, even those in very desireable locations. the PD's often mention how good my school is. PD's like students from good schools, because it makes their program look strong.

That is probably because an average board score is extremely competitive for PM&R. I doubt is has anything to do with your "very good school."

 

[drvlad2004]

I personally think school tier is very important for PMR residency application. I came from a very good school, my board scores are so so, and I still got interviews from ALL of the top programs i applied too, even those in very desireable locations. the PD's often mention how good my school is. PD's like students from good schools, because it makes their program look strong.

Also, i hope that all the D.O.'s will take the usmle, especially if you want to go to a good program. infact i don't know why they don't, since you can take them close together. I'm a MD student, and I have seen how many MD residents/attendings do not respect DO schools. thus you need to take the usmle to be taken seriously. you have nothing to loose, because most programs expects you to do worse on the usmle, so it's no big deal even when you infact do worse. The fact is that most MD's view DO students as MD school rejects, although no DO's i've ever met admit to that. MD students actually frawn about a program when there's too many DO's, most think it's a sign of a weak program. bottom line, if you want to get my respect, then take my test to prove it. I know many DO's are smart people, but don't expect to receive the benefit of the doubt from MD's automatically.

Some of your points are understandable but after those comments, you might want to reconsider PM&R as a your specialty of choice. Especially since there are just as many DOs as MDs in this field. There are plenty of DOs in the top programs as well. Be careful of what you say since you are still going through the match process. If you go to a top tier medical, of course that will help you matching better. However, if your personality sucks, despite going to a top tier school, that it might not matter.

 

[Brooklyndo2.1]

Respectfully, still being an applicant and all... the whole md vs do thing doesnt belong here, especially given the field.

rehabiliator... I do so hope you give the benefit of the doubt to the DO attendings you will encounter, whether they took the obviously highly covetted and meaningful USMLE's or not.

I also wonder if youd say all you had to say here in a mixed room of md and do residents and attendings.

 

[RuNnR]

I'm an MD and really in PMR MD = DO. okay? Obviously you are talking to old school MDs who are not up to date. What do MD's lack that DO's are arguably better at? the physical exam. lots of programs stress this.

The PD at RIC is a DO. you might want to tell him what you think. I bet he'll change your mind.

 

[axm397]

That is probably because an average board score is extremely competitive for PM&R. I doubt is has anything to do with your "very good school."

I think these numbers mean that it is still not too difficult to land A spot in PM&R. However, at the top programs, the numbers are higher. My class alone has 3 AOAs(that's an allopathic medical honors society for all you pre-meds who may not know what this means). One declined a spot in Derm.(i've actually met at least 5 physiatrists who switched from orthopedic surgery) We have residents from Harvard Med School, Duke, U of C, etc. Many of my attendings went to some of the best med schools in the country. This year, I have seen more applicants from "top tier" med schools which I have not seen as much in years past. (Yale, Duke, Columbia, Mayo, etc.) So although these numbers are disappointing, I don't think it is reflective of the more competitive programs in the country. (of course, the same can be said for other fields in this report.) Just like you wouldn't look at these numbers and decide you only need a 220 on the boards to match at Hopkins Internal Medicine, I wouldn't take this chart to assess your competitiveness at the top PM&R programs. My sister is at an Ivy League residency in Psychiatry and I can tell you she got higher than the average plastic surgery applicant on that chart and is not the only AOA in her class.

Fortunately, I think PM&R PDs still value personality and "fit" over name and numbers. Of course, going to a top med school helps but it does not obliterate the need to do well on interviews. Physiatrists need to know how to work with a team and spend a lot of time talking to patients and family members. Arrogance and poor inter-personal skills really don't do well in this field. 🙄

 

[paindefender]

I'm an MD and really in PMR MD = DO. okay? Obviously you are talking to old school MDs who are not up to date. What do MD's lack that DO's are arguably better at? the physical exam. lots of programs stress this.

The PD at RIC is a DO. you might want to tell him what you think. I bet he'll change your mind.

MD=DO.???!!. I really don't think so.

 

[Taus]

MD=DO.???!!. I really don't think so.

for all practical purposes that are un-related to prestige....they are

geez...for a second I thought I had mistakingly stumbled into the Ortho forum....

 

[p9142]

Fortunately, I think PM&R PDs still value personality and "fit" over name and numbers. Of course, going to a top med school helps but it does not obliterate the need to do well on interviews. Physiatrists need to know how to work with a team and spend a lot of time talking to patients and family members. Arrogance and poor inter-personal skills really don't do well in this field. 🙄

What would you say the USMLE score would need to be to get in to RIC? I understand that there is no way you could know this answer, but I am just asking for a gut feeling.

I also have another premed type question for your. If you want to practice as a clinical physiatrist, what are the advantages to going to the super 6? Do you get paid more, have more opportunities, or are the main advantages for academic medicine?

 

[normalforce]

I collected the USMLE scores from my PGY-2 class at RIC, the average is 231

There is no "needed" score to match, but you should hopefully have a score of greater than 215-220.

Best luck.

 

[axm397]

What would you say the USMLE score would need to be to get in to RIC? I understand that there is no way you could know this answer, but I am just asking for a gut feeling.

I also have another premed type question for your. If you want to practice as a clinical physiatrist, what are the advantages to going to the super 6? Do you get paid more, have more opportunities, or are the main advantages for academic medicine?

1st question - answered by my colleague🙂

2nd question - am not sure what you mean by a "clinical physiatrist" - (what is a nonclinical physiatrist??) but of course it helps to go to a solid program w a large and diverse alumni network. Most PM&R jobs are word of mouth. The jobs are easier to come by when you know or can find alums in whatever area of the country you want to go to.

I can only speak for RIC but having spoken to residents and fellows at other "top" programs (Kessler, UMich, UWash, Baylor, Mayo, etc. etc.) I think the situation is similar across the country. I think out of the 9 RIC grads last year who took private practice and academic jobs, all of them either went into practice with an RIC alum or got referrals from RIC alums. PM&R is a small world. A phone call from a "name" Physiatrist can open a lot of doors. It also sometimes negates the need for a fellowship - one RIC grad from last year did 1 month rotations with many of the EMG "gurus", got trained at RIC to do injections, and is now a Sports and Spine attending. Another went into private practice with a bunch of RIC grads who will teach him basic spinal injections so he can be an interventionalist without fellowship.(granted I dont' know if he will be doing higher risk procedures.) Another is working as an attending at a fellowship program without having done a fellowship herself - she got trained by the fellowship director to do interventions.

If you want to do a fellowship - if someone from your program trained at and was well liked at a fellowship, you have a better chance of getting in. For example, UMich has a pain fellow who is from RIC. Guess who is going there next year for fellowship? yep, another RIC grad. (Kind of the reason why some fellowships like to take inhouse residents - it's good to know what kind of quality you can expect from certain programs)

So there's your answer.

 

[Taus]

1st question - answered by my colleague🙂

2nd question - am not sure what you mean by a "clinical physiatrist" - (what is a nonclinical physiatrist??) but of course it helps to go to a solid program w a large and diverse alumni network. Most PM&R jobs are word of mouth. The jobs are easier to come by when you know or can find alums in whatever area of the country you want to go to.

I can only speak for RIC but having spoken to residents and fellows at other "top" programs (Kessler, UMich, UWash, Baylor, Mayo, etc. etc.) I think the situation is similar across the country. I think out of the 9 RIC grads last year who took private practice and academic jobs, all of them either went into practice with an RIC alum or got referrals from RIC alums. PM&R is a small world. A phone call from a "name" Physiatrist can open a lot of doors. It also sometimes negates the need for a fellowship - one RIC grad from last year did 1 month rotations with many of the EMG "gurus", got trained at RIC to do injections, and is now a Sports and Spine attending. Another went into private practice with a bunch of RIC grads who will teach him basic spinal injections so he can be an interventionalist without fellowship.(granted I dont' know if he will be doing higher risk procedures.) Another is working as an attending at a fellowship program without having done a fellowship herself - she got trained by the fellowship director to do interventions.

If you want to do a fellowship - if someone from your program trained at and was well liked at a fellowship, you have a better chance of getting in. For example, UMich has a pain fellow who is from RIC. Guess who is going there next year for fellowship? yep, another RIC grad. (Kind of the reason why some fellowships like to take inhouse residents - it's good to know what kind of quality you can expect from certain programs)

So there's your answer.

damnit Axm.... some days I feel like I'd be perfectly happy limiting myself to the northeast programs.....after reading your post and thinking more about my extern experience at RIC...today is not one of them😉 ....now I just need you to convince my signif other that it'll be worth leaving her fantastic job if I match out there

 

[p9142]

The general consensus of this thread seems to be that school tier has very little to do with matching for PM&R. Did this trend hold up this year, or is the competitiveness of the specialty starting to weed out the students who didn't go to ivies or decided to go the DO route?

 

[Jumpu]

A fellow future co-resident and I met up recently for lunch and had a very similar discussion. We both felt, at least with RIC, that there is competition for positions in PM&R but not in the traditional manner. That is to say, as long as one scores average to slightly above average on step I, you have an opportunity to match irrespective of the school you come from. A competitive applicant appears to have a well rounded application (ECs, excellent LORs, good clinical evals from PM&R rotations) and a true understanding of the field. Personality is a huge factor as well.