How limited are DO graduates to certain specialties?

[Terp93]

Hey all, after doing some research on the MSAR resources I purchased, it's looking like I may not have a shot as a non-trad for getting into an MD program, or at least, not a very good shot. I've been doing a lot of reading up on DO programs, and the differences from MD, and it sounds very interesting, however, one thing I have heard rumors of is that it is much harder to match into certain specialties as a DO. How much truth is there to this? I definitely have not ruled out Family Med or Internal Med, which I'm assuming are very reasonable to match into from a DO program, but for lets say Anesthesiology or General Surgery, are those going to be very difficult to match into as a DO assuming that my STEP scores are competitive? Any statistics folks are able to provide would be awesome. If we're talking a 75% chance of matching into those from DO, I am comfortable with that risk, if it is 25% or something similar however...I may need to rethink my strategy. Thanks in advance!

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[Kardio]

Any statistics folks are able to provide would be awesome. If we're talking a 75% chance of matching into those from DO, I am comfortable with that risk, if it is 25% or something similar however...I may need to rethink my strategy.

These documents will tell you, in detail, about the characteristics of USMD and DO seniors who match into most specialties (barring some fields, like Ophthalmology, which have their own residency placement system).

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2020_MD-Senior_final.pdf

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2020_DO-Senior_final.pdf

Some surgical sub specialties, like plastics, are nearly impossible to match into directly. There are usually caveats - for example, I think it’s possible to do a plastics fellowship out of a general surgery residency.

 

[DreamingDoc]

There is no specialty that is impossible for a DO to match into, but you will have to really put in work for some of the more competitive sub specialities as mentioned above. Head over to the "Match 2021" thread in the DO medical student section and you’ll find senior DO students who matched into everything from integrated plastics to specialties at institutions that historically have not accepted DOs this year.

Focus on doing well on your boards/rotations, networking, research, etc as opposed to being a DO vs MD because where you end up will mostly depend on you.

FWIW, I'm a DO grad who just matched integrated plastics after previous unsuccessful attempts (just to add weight to the fact that nothing is impossible)

 

[builderstorch]

There is no specialty that is impossible for a DO to match into, but you will have to really put in work for some of the more competitive sub specialities as mentioned above. Head over to the "Match 2021" thread in the DO medical student section and you’ll find senior DO students who matched into everything from integrated plastics to specialties at institutions that historically have not accepted DOs this year.

Focus on doing well on your boards/rotations, networking, research, etc as opposed to being a DO vs MD because where you end up will mostly depend on you.

FWIW, I'm a DO grad who just matched integrated plastics after previous unsuccessful attempts (just to add weight to the fact that nothing is im

That's amazing congrats! How did you manage to successfully reapply into plastics if you don't mind me asking? I am a first-year DO student thinking about specialties.

 

[DreamingDoc]

That's amazing congrats! How did you manage to successfully reapply into plastics if you don't mind me asking? I am a first-year DO student thinking about specialties.

Thanks! I'll be honest and say I'm an anomaly, so I would suggest finding a way to get in touch with DO students (one has a reddit post if you google DO integrated plastics reddit or something along those lines) who matched into directly plastics this year to see what made them successful.

As for me, it took a ton of work, patience, and in my opinion, a bit of a miracle for me to match.

I've been fully transparent over the years, so my "surviving medical school" tab also has my previous posts on not matching.

As a first year, you should use this time to identify mentors in the field either at your institution or by way of professional memberships in addition to seeking research opportunities. Your clinical rotations will likely be where you truly find what specialty you enjoy, so don't become stuck on any particular specialty right now, but have a general plan.

 

[Goro]

Hey all, after doing some research on the MSAR resources I purchased, it's looking like I may not have a shot as a non-trad for getting into an MD program, or at least, not a very good shot. I've been doing a lot of reading up on DO programs, and the differences from MD, and it sounds very interesting, however, one thing I have heard rumors of is that it is much harder to match into certain specialties as a DO. How much truth is there to this? I definitely have not ruled out Family Med or Internal Med, which I'm assuming are very reasonable to match into from a DO program, but for lets say Anesthesiology or General Surgery, are those going to be very difficult to match into as a DO assuming that my STEP scores are competitive? Any statistics folks are able to provide would be awesome. If we're talking a 75% chance of matching into those from DO, I am comfortable with that risk, if it is 25% or something similar however...I may need to rethink my strategy. Thanks in advance!

The Program Director's guide gives you snapshot into he minds of PDs as to who is DO friendly or not.

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-PD-Survey.pdf

And here's a summary. Basically, surgical subspecialties and a number of high level academic IM sites are very DO unfriendly, or those uber-specialties known as "DOPENs". And yet, every year, those doors crack open.

	Interview DO			Rank DO
	Often	Seldom	Never	Often	Seldom	Never
Radiation Oncology	7	67	27	7	67	27
Dermatology	8	58	33	18	55	27
Plastic Surgery	8	58	33	8	58	33
Neurological Surgery	15	23	62	8	31	62
Otolaryngology	20	40	40	20	36	44
Orthopaedic Surgery	21	49	31	21	46	33
Thoracic Surgery	25	58	17	18	55	27
Child Neurology	31	50	19	71	29	0
Interventional Rads	36	55	9	45	45	9
Vascular Surgery	43	43	14	43	43	14
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics	57	29	14	57	29	14
Surgery	57	31	12	56	32	12
Obstetrics and Gynecology	62	32	16	52	30	18
ALL Programs	64	26	10	66	25	11
Anesthesiology	72	24	4	75	21	4
Emergency Medicine	74	23	3	78	19	3
Radiology-Diagnostic	74	26	0	72	28	0
Internal Medicine	75	23	2	75	20	5
Neurology	76	24	0	76	24	0
Pathology	78	13	9	77	18	5
Pediatrics	78	33	0	78	33	0
Psychiatry	78	16	5	84	14	3
Transitional Year	86	14	0	77	23	0
Family Medicine	97	3	0	98	2	0
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation	100	0	0	100	0	0

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Hey all, after doing some research on the MSAR resources I purchased, it's looking like I may not have a shot as a non-trad for getting into an MD program, or at least, not a very good shot. I've been doing a lot of reading up on DO programs, and the differences from MD, and it sounds very interesting, however, one thing I have heard rumors of is that it is much harder to match into certain specialties as a DO. How much truth is there to this? I definitely have not ruled out Family Med or Internal Med, which I'm assuming are very reasonable to match into from a DO program, but for lets say Anesthesiology or General Surgery, are those going to be very difficult to match into as a DO assuming that my STEP scores are competitive? Any statistics folks are able to provide would be awesome. If we're talking a 75% chance of matching into those from DO, I am comfortable with that risk, if it is 25% or something similar however...I may need to rethink my strategy. Thanks in advance!

If you want something ultra competitive like ortho, derm, optho etc, you have to be willing to go to a former DO/AOA programs which are wide open for DO, you can still match acgme but it will be harder.

 

[builderstorch]

Thanks! I'll be honest and say I'm an anomaly, so I would suggest finding a way to get in touch with DO students (one has a reddit post if you google DO integrated plastics reddit or something along those lines) who matched into directly plastics this year to see what made them successful.

As for me, it took a ton of work, patience, and in my opinion, a bit of a miracle for me to match.

I've been fully transparent over the years, so my "surviving medical school" tab also has my previous posts on not matching.

As a first year, you should use this time to identify mentors in the field either at your institution or by way of professional memberships in addition to seeking research opportunities. Your clinical rotations will likely be where you truly find what specialty you enjoy, so don't become stuck on any particular specialty right now, but have a general plan.

Thank you for the advice!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

There are DO's in every field, but yes the competitive specialties are more difficult. It's just the nature of the DO beast. ENT and ortho are obviously extremely competitive with match rates at around 50-60% (even including DO programs). Neurosurgery, plastics, CT, and vascular even more so and have very low match rates down to 25% or lower. General surgery has a match rate of about 75% overall, but that goes up into the 80s if your app is at least average for a matched applicant.

For reference, I am also a recently matched DO and I matched general surgery at an academic program where I will be the only DO (has had DO's in the past), and I interviewed at quite a few large academic programs. I agree with everything @DreamingDoc said. It's possible but it's definitely a grind. I knew I wanted to be a surgeon from day 1 and basically spent every day in medical school doing things that would help me achieve that goal.

 

[YCAGA]

Really you can just read the chart Goro linked and get a great idea of what I am about to say. But if you want a wall of text…

To really make a reasonable decision about DO schools you need to expect to be a below average medical student, because that is literally half of medical school classes. At a Caribbean school below average medical students rarely match into anything, at DO schools below average medical students almost always match into SOMETHING, but normally it is limited to anti-DOPEN specialities like FM/IM/peds/neuro, and at any US MD school below average medical students match all the time into things like anesthesia, rads, EM, etc, and finally, at top US MD schools below average medical students match into DOPEN specialities quite often. So choose your risk tolerance and that decides if DO is right for you.

Anothet way to look at it is that “anything is possible for DO’s” is the same type of logic that tricks people into going to Caribbean and other international schools, it is just not nearly as dangerous or dumb as the Caribbean logic. “Anything is possible” for Caribbean graduates too…some of them match ortho every year and one person even matched I6 thoracic surgery this year, but the expected outcome is unmatched/FM/low tier IM. Don’t expect to be the (positive) outlier in medicine. That’s a recipe for disappointment.

Finally, to be fair to DO schools, most MD graduates end up in IM/FM/peds anyways, due to the size of those specialities among other reasons…so it’s not like DO schools are that different for the majority of people.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Really you can just read the chart Goro linked and get a great idea of what I am about to say. But if you want a wall of text…

To really make a reasonable decision about DO schools you need to expect to be a below average medical student, because that is literally half of medical school classes. At a Caribbean school below average medical students rarely match into anything, at DO schools below average medical students almost always match into SOMETHING, but normally it is limited to anti-DOPEN specialities like FM/IM/peds/neuro, and at any US MD school below average medical students match all the time into things like anesthesia, rads, EM, etc, and finally, at top US MD schools below average medical students match into DOPEN specialities quite often. So choose your risk tolerance and that decides if DO is right for you.

Anothet way to look at it is that “anything is possible for DO’s” is the same type of logic that tricks people into going to Caribbean and other international schools, it is just not nearly as dangerous or dumb as the Caribbean logic. “Anything is possible” for Caribbean graduates too…some of them match ortho every year and one person even matched I6 thoracic surgery this year, but the expected outcome is unmatched/FM/low tier IM. Don’t expect to be the (positive) outlier in medicine. That’s a recipe for disappointment.

Finally, to be fair to DO schools, most MD graduates end up in IM/FM/peds anyways, due to the size of those specialities among other reasons…so it’s not like DO schools are that different for the majority of people.

Below average DO(<230 step 1)students also can match Rads and EM ,PM&R and possibly even anesthesia somewhere!? Simply going by charting outcomes in the 2020 match and it shows many many DO’s with step scores in the 210-229 range matching the above specialties...

 

[YCAGA]

Below average DO(<230 step 1)students also can match Rads and EM ,PM&R and possibly even anesthesia somewhere!? Simply going by charting outcomes in the 2020 match and it shows many many DO’s with step scores in the 210-229 range matching the above specialties...

You’re proving my point. I never said DO’s can’t match those specialities, it is just objectively harder than if you go to an MD school. You replying with “but DO’s match these specialities!!! See!!!!” is exactly the poor logic I am talking about. It’s good that the match rate isn’t 50% for DO’s but it also isn’t as high as MD’s. Just like DO students have much better match rates than Caribbean students.

Also the Step 1 average for DO’s is like 225 which is 34th percentile for all US and Canadian medical students who take Step 1 (MD and DO combined). So a below average DO student is already starting behind a below average MD student.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

You’re proving my point. I never said DO’s can’t match those specialities, it is just objectively harder than if you go to an MD school. You replying with “but DO’s match these specialities!!! See!!!!” is exactly the poor logic I am talking about. It’s good that the match rate isn’t 50% for DO’s but it also isn’t as high as MD’s. Just like DO students have much better match rates than Caribbean students.

Also the Step 1 average for DO’s is like 225 which is 34th percentile for all US and Canadian medical students who take Step 1 (MD and DO combined). So a below average DO student is already starting behind a below average MD student.

I got what your saying but it isn’t comparable to the snowflake phenomenon like your claiming. The specialties you mentioned are very DO friendly and people not matching are those who didn’t apply broadly enough with below average scores, that’s different from the DOPEN specialties where you have to be a rockstar as a DO to match, you don’t have to be a rockstar or even have very high scores as a DO to match rads, EM or PM&R, OB and even anesthesia(although this cycle was a rough go) generally speaking. And you won’t match at a top program by any means being below average, I mean just matching somewhere..

 

[Terp93]

Thank you all for the information, especially the statistics (I'm a numbers person after all as an engineer) This really helped to put things into perspective for me and gave me some great things to consider. You guys are the best!

 

[YCAGA]

Thank you all for the information, especially the statistics (I'm a numbers person after all as an engineer) This really helped to put things into perspective for me and gave me some great things to consider. You guys are the best!

I think the best advice I can give about the MD/DO debate (if you can even call it a debate) is to be wary of people who talk in extremes, in either direction. Like "DO's and MD's are exactly the same and there is zero bias ever" or "DO's can only do family medicine or internal medicine." The truth is somewhere in the middle so people giving a nuanced view probably know what they are talking about.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

It was a funny year. Had some students match in university programs. One didn't match IR or backup preliminary surgery, had double digits interviews in IR. Match's were down across the board for MDs and DOs, like 1 1/2 and 2%. It's clear matching is getting harder and this year might be the tip of the iceberg. Next year will be interesting.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

It was a funny year. Had some students match in university programs. One didn't match IR or backup preliminary surgery, had double digits interviews in IR. Match's were down across the board for MDs and DOs, like 1 1/2 and 2%. It's clear matching is getting harder and this year might be the tip of the iceberg. Next year will be interesting.

You think it had anything to do with COVID?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

You think it had anything to do with COVID?

I do. I believe covid had some impact. Zoom visits allowed candidates who would never travel the distance to visit at many programs. Because of this, many PDs played their usual games of leading candidates to believe they would be highly ranked by the program, only to find out later they didn't match. I think this may be responsible for the many stories we have been hearing about solid candidates not matching anywhere. My son got that from his 3 top choices in the fellowship match, and matched his 4th. We were both a little surprised, he more than I, as I have been hearing about this behavior for quite awhile.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I do. I believe covid had some impact. Zoom Easter egg hunts allowed candidates who would never travel the distance to Easter egg hunt at many programs. Because of this, many PDs played their usual games of leading candidates to believe they would be highly ranked by the program, only to find out later they didn't match. I think this may be responsible for the many stories we have been hearing about solid candidates not matching anywhere. My son got that from his 3 top choices in the fellowship match, and matched his 4th. We were both a little surprised, he more than I, as I have been hearing about this behavior for quite awhile.

That’s really unfortunate. Hoping the cycle is more normal this year and we have in person interviews...

 

[Chads2]

be wary of people who talk in extremes, in either direction.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

That’s really unfortunate. Hoping the cycle is more normal this year and we have in person Easter egg hunts...

Wtf? When I try to edit that post, it says 1nterviews, not Easter egg hunt. I don't get it. When I type 1nterview, spelled correctly, Easter egg hunt comes up. Weird.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Wtf? When I try to edit that post, it says 1nterviews, not Easter egg hunt. I don't get it. When I type 1nterview, spelled correctly, Easter egg hunt comes up. Weird.

The mods are messing with it, you I know I meant 1interview lol

 

[Angus Avagadro]

The mods are messing with it, you I know I meant 1interview lol

I'm a little slow today. I'm sure it's APRIL FOOLS!!!

 

[caterwaiter]

for lets say Anesthesiology or General Surgery, are those going to be very difficult to match into as a DO assuming that my STEP scores are competitive?

Just want to chime in and say that, assuming you're still pre-med, Step 1 will be pass/fail by the time you're looking at applying to residencies and matching.

 

[YCAGA]

Just want to chime in and say that, assuming you're still pre-med, Step 1 will be pass/fail by the time you're looking at applying to residencies and matching.

Step 2 CK (but maybe we just have to call it Step 2 now?) is still scored though. It is almost guaranteed that it will replace Step 1

 

[MusicDOc124]

Just in case is wasn't mentioned. Not only can you go into virtually any field as a DO (albeit you'll have to work a little harder), but those same fields that are difficult to get into as a DO - are still difficult even for MDs. They may have less of a barrier, but they still have to do well on boards, make connections, get good letters, do research, etc. If any of these are missing from the MD, they're going to have a hard time too. I feel like a lot of posts seem to forget that and auto-assume things are not only impossible for DOs, but a walk-in-the-park for MDs.

 

[zNoodlez]

Just in case is wasn't mentioned. Not only can you go into virtually any field as a DO (albeit you'll have to work a little harder), but those same fields that are difficult to get into as a DO - are still difficult even for MDs. They may have less of a barrier, but they still have to do well on boards, make connections, get good letters, do research, etc. If any of these are missing from the MD, they're going to have a hard time too. I feel like a lot of posts seem to forget that and auto-assume things are not only impossible for DOs, but a walk-in-the-park for MDs.

Yeah a walk in the park for MDs for sure.....Jurassic park.

 

[somedoc1595]

Hey all, after doing some research on the MSAR resources I purchased, it's looking like I may not have a shot as a non-trad for getting into an MD program, or at least, not a very good shot. I've been doing a lot of reading up on DO programs, and the differences from MD, and it sounds very interesting, however, one thing I have heard rumors of is that it is much harder to match into certain specialties as a DO. How much truth is there to this? I definitely have not ruled out Family Med or Internal Med, which I'm assuming are very reasonable to match into from a DO program, but for lets say Anesthesiology or General Surgery, are those going to be very difficult to match into as a DO assuming that my STEP scores are competitive? Any statistics folks are able to provide would be awesome. If we're talking a 75% chance of matching into those from DO, I am comfortable with that risk, if it is 25% or something similar however...I may need to rethink my strategy. Thanks in advance!

I don't think anyone can give you concrete numbers on your chances of matching into one of the more competitive specialties because there are far too many variables. Frankly, the vast majority of DO's go into IM, FM, or Peds. Probably the next most common specialty would be Emergency Medicine. We had a few in our class go into Ortho, Anesthesia, Gen Surg, OB/GYN, and Radiology. 1 went into Derm. 1 went into ENT.

 

[deleted1066189]

Anesthesia is easier to match into than Gen Surg for a DO, but I can't imagine it's "easy" to do so

 

[GAMING4FUNN]

There is no specialty that is impossible for a DO to match into, but you will have to really put in work for some of the more competitive sub specialities as mentioned above. Head over to the "Match 2021" thread in the DO medical student section and you’ll find senior DO students who matched into everything from integrated plastics to specialties at institutions that historically have not accepted DOs this year.

Focus on doing well on your boards/rotations, networking, research, etc as opposed to being a DO vs MD because where you end up will mostly depend on you.

FWIW, I'm a DO grad who just matched integrated plastics after previous unsuccessful attempts (just to add weight to the fact that nothing is impossible)

I work in a level 1 Trauma center and we have a healthy mix of MD and DO general surgery residents. Even 1 of our attending Trauma Surgeons is a DO. You can definitely do DO and get General Surgery.

 

[Chads2]

I may not have a shot as a non-trad for getting into an MD program,

one thing I have heard rumors of is that it is much harder to match into certain specialties as a DO.

One piece of advice I always give people is that it’s much harder to match if you don’t go through Med school at all.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

One piece of advice I always give people is that it’s much harder to match if you don’t go through Med school at all.

Or if you dont pass courses/boards in med school even if you make it to MD/DO school. Premeds should stop thinking about all this nonsense.