How long should the lock down last?

[GeneralVeers]

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Recently had a service loaner from the dealership in which the previous driver left Sirius set to the BBC. I don't watch or listen to news much, but I found it to be nicely level-headed without bull**** sensationalism.

I routinely watch BBC News when abroad, and it's certainly more level-headed and less hysterical than the U.S. Media. That being said, they still have editorial goals, which are generally anti-Trump, anti-Brexit and pro-globalism.

 

[WilcoWorld]

I think PBS works hard to give a broad perspective that is fact-based. When they do have opinion-based segments they are clearly identified as "analysis" rather than being presented as news.

In this survey they fared much better than cable news sources: These are the most and least biased news outlets in the US, according to Americans

 

[bravotwozero]

Where can you go these days on TV for news that isn’t biased or opinionated. CNN used to be like that, but they have entered the fray of opinionated news casting just like MSNBC and Fox.

TV? forget it. Why? just follow the money, and see who backs the media conglomerates. Almost all of TV news media is owned by 6 corporations, last time I checked. Whose interests/viewpoint do you think the media will serve in this type of scenario?

 

[GeneralVeers]

I think PBS works hard to give a broad perspective that is fact-based. When they do have opinion-based segments they are clearly identified as "analysis" rather than being presented as news.

In this survey they fared much better than cable news sources: These are the most and least biased news outlets in the US, according to Americans

You've definitely nailed one of the biggest concerns with modern print and television media. In the past, analysis/commentary sections were clearly labelled as such. Networks used to have "News Anchors" and "Analysts". The segments were clearly delineated, so you knew if you were getting a simple reporting of events, versus an opinion piece. Now, pretty much every segment on all networks is opinion disguised as news. The New York Times, once respected for some degree of objectivity is now just a giant opinion piece veiled as actual news.

 

[bravotwozero]

Anyways, back on topic.

In my county, the number of hospitalizations from COVID has been increasing. This suggests the increase in cases is NOT solely the result of more testing.

Source

 

[thegenius]

This thing will be like a roller coaster. We had the first big spike a few months ago. Will have smaller ones going forward. And they will occur in different areas of the country. And then it will peter out. Just like a roller coaster.

I do not think we will ever see a big spike like what we saw the first time.

 

[thegenius]

Cases are up where I work too, I see 1-3 Covid+ cases a shift, with a few others who probably have it but the rapid test is neg.

It increased 3-4 weeks ago but has since leveled off and has not risen exponentially or logistically or anything like that. We continue to have 5-10 hospitalized patients with Covid.

What we see are clusters coming in, like an entire family of 5 comes in to get tested over a span of two days. Plus lots of migrant, undocumented immigrants from Mexico. Some of them don’t even know there is a virus being spread in the community.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Cases are up where I work too, I see 1-3 Covid+ cases a shift, with a few others who probably have it but the rapid test is neg.

It increased 3-4 weeks ago but has since leveled off and has not risen exponentially or logistically or anything like that. We continue to have 5-10 hospitalized patients with Covid.

What we see are clusters coming in, like an entire family of 5 comes in to get tested over a span of two days. Plus lots of migrant, undocumented immigrants from Mexico. Some of them don’t even know there is a virus being spread in the community.

I suspect a second wave won't bring about a huge number of deaths. The first wave killed a ton of susceptible nursing home patients, so obviously the number of people at most serious risk of dying form this should be greatly decreased.

 

[thegenius]

I suspect a second wave won't bring about a huge number of deaths. The first wave killed a ton of susceptible nursing home patients, so obviously the number of people at most serious risk of dying form this should be greatly decreased.

The county I work in and the hospital I work at are extremely careful with the nursing homes, in so much that they would rather have us admit an asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic nursing home patient with COVID than send them back.

 

[Birdstrike]

I suspect a second wave won't bring about a huge number of deaths. The first wave killed a ton of susceptible nursing home patients, so obviously the number of people at most serious risk of dying form this should be greatly decreased.

That's a very interesting thought. Could second and subsequent waves have a lower case fatality rate?

Almost 3 weeks in to our large spike in positive cases in my state, we are still not showing any statistically significant change in the daily death rate. If fact, deaths are down each of the past two weeks. It's possible there's still a delay. But we're still not seeing any numerical evidence of that six week into our reopening process. In fact, cell phone mobility data shows mobility started climbing rapidly April 11th and hasn't stopped. There should be an increase in deaths by now if either the stay at home order had any effect, or infections are increasing. Unless...

Did the first wave kill the most susceptible, with wave 2 spreading through people with hardier immune systems and stronger respiratory status who are less likely to die?

I don't know. But it certainly seems plausible based on the mechanism you describe and could be an explanation, other than simply increased testing, to explain higher infections without a change in deaths. Time will tell.

 

[thegenius]

That's a very interesting thought. Could second and subsequent waves have a lower case fatality rate?

Almost 3 weeks in to our spike in positive cases in my county, we are still not showing any change in the death rate. If fact, this week's death numbers notched down a bit from last week. It's possible there's still a delay in reopening progressing to infection, to death. But we're still not seeing any numerical evidence of that, at least yet, and we're six week into our reopening process.

Did the first wave take out the most susceptible, with wave 2 spreading through people with hardier immune systems and respiratory status?

I don't know. But it certainly seems plausible based on the mechanism you describe and could be an explanation, other than simply increased testing, to explain higher infections without a change in deaths.

Yes I think the death rate will go down, for several reasons. 1) we know more about how to fight the virus medically speaking, less intubating, more high flow O2, maybe using some drugs that have some marginal benefit, 2) being more careful preventing transmission around susceptible populations. This is in part dependent on how well people want to socially distance though and just practice common sense stuff.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

They will say that Biden took over and handled Corona Virus brilliantly! Also systemic racism is gone.

If Biden winning would calm everyone down, seems like a fair trade

 

[GeneralVeers]

If Biden winning would calm everyone down, seems like a fair trade

Not good for us really. The massive new taxes we will likely pay will hurt....a lot

 

[Torsion]

Not good for us really. The massive new taxes we will likely pay will hurt....a lot

Would a return to Obama era tax rates hurt more than the potential for Trump's ideas about mid-level pay parity coming to fruition? Or Trump's vocal support for insurance-backed out-of-network rate setting?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I’m coming to the point where I’m inclined to agree.... but.... isn’t that also kind of like a parent saying “fine kid, you can play video games and eat ice cream all day, just please be quiet and stop throwing your tantrum”

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Not good for us really. The massive new taxes we will likely pay will hurt....a lot

I assume it would just be a repeal of the Trump tax cuts

 

[Birdstrike]

If Biden winning would calm everyone down, seems like a fair trade

That never happens. You just trade angry left wing groups for angry right wing groups. The most active radicals at any given moment are those of the party out of power, while those aligned with the party in power lie dormant, as long as they perceive their side as in power.

 

[Birdstrike]

I’m coming to the point where I’m inclined to agree.... but.... isn’t that also kind of like a parent saying “fine kid, you can play video games and eat ice cream all day, just please be quiet and stop throwing your tantrum”

This never works. They always come back when their leaders are out of power. Ceding to radicals of the opposite political spectrum to "calm them down" only guarantees you're always either out of power or relinquishing power to "calm down" your opponents. That, by the way was the perpetual (losing) strategy of the pre-Trump Republican party, which was always to excel at being the opposing party, perpetually out of power.

 

[thegenius]

I assume it would just be a repeal of the Trump tax cuts

Looking at my records,
Before Trump, I paid about 22% of my gross income in federal income tax
After Trump, I paid about 14%.

Huge difference

Then I moved to an S-Corp for 2019, and I paid 17% of my gross income in federal tax
It was explained to me that I made more than the QBI limit and thus it was phased out.
That SUCKED
I always thought you could save money with an S-Corp, but alas was not the case for me.

So now I'm purposely working a little less, to make about 50K less, so I can get more of a tax break.


I suspect that our taxes are going to go up in the next 2-4 years no matter who we have for president, although it might come sooner and more swiftly if a democrat gets elected. In fact it probably should too. Unless we can grow our economy at a much higher percentage than what we had pre-COVID. The two ways we paid for all government spending post WW2 was the high tax rates and by growing the economy.

If we could endlessly give out money for free to corporations and watch rich people become filthy rich without imposing new taxes, then we have been going at this all wrong for the past 50 years. We should just give people money from the govt.

 

[Birdstrike]

If Biden winning would calm everyone down, seems like a fair trade

Biden winning wouldn't calm anyone down. Riots, civil unrest and police killings was much greater, not less during Biden's time in power. You already forgot St. Louis, Ferguson, too many police killings to name on his watch, not to mention Occupy Wall street?

List of riots, civil unrest and police killings during Biden's Vice Presidency:

• 2009 – Riots against BART Police shooting of Oscar Grant, January 7, 120 arrested, Oakland, California
• 2009 – Akron riots, March 14, 2009, 7 arrested; and July 2009, unknown number arrested, Akron, Ohio
• 2009 – 2009 G-20 Pittsburgh summit protests, September 24–25, 193 arrested
• 2010 – Springfest riot, April 10, 200 police disperse crowd of 8,000 using tear gas, pepper spray, rubber bullets, and bean bag rounds, near the campus of James Madison University; dozens injured. 30–35 arrested; Harrisonburg, Virginia.
• 2010 – Santa Cruz May Day riot, May 1, 250 rampage through downtown Santa Cruz attacking 18 businesses, causing an estimated $100,000 in damages. 1 arrested. Santa Cruz, California.
• 2010 – Oakland protest riot, November 5, Police made more than 150 arrests as a crowd broke windows and knocked down fences, protesting sentence of former BART officer in shooting of Oscar Grant on New Years Day 2009; see BART Police shooting of Oscar Grant. Oakland, California
• 2011 Madison Occupation. Portestors storm and occupy the Wisconson state capitol building for 18 days.
• 2011 – Occupy Wall Street (Brooklyn Bridge protests). Demonstrators blocked the bridge and more than 700 people were arrested. New York, New York
• 2011 – Occupy Oakland Oakland protests riots. October. Protesters shattered windows, set fires, and plastered buildings with graffiti. Riot police fired heavy amounts of tear gas on the protesters.
• 2012 – Kentucky Wildcats supporters in Lexington, Kentucky[5]
• 2012 – NATO 2012 Chicago Summit, May. Conflict between riot police and protesters. Dozens of demonstrators clubbed and arrested.
• 2012 – Anaheim police shooting and protests, July 28. Violence erupted after multiple shootings in the neighborhood by police that included unarmed Manuel Diaz. 24 people were arrested.
• 2013 – Flatbush Riots, March 11, Riots in Brooklyn, New York after the death of Kimani Gray who was shot and killed by NYPD.
• 2014 – Bundy Standoff, April 5–May, an armed confrontation between supporters of cattle rancher Cliven Bundy and law enforcement following a 21-year legal dispute in which the United States Bureau of Land Management (BLM) obtained court orders directing Bundy to pay over $1 million in withheld grazing fees for Bundy's use of federally-owned land adjacent to Bundy's ranch in southeastern Nevada.
• 2014 – Ferguson unrest, Ferguson and St. Louis, Missouri, August 10 and November 24. Following the shooting death of Michael Brown by a Ferguson police officer, protests erupt in the streets. Police respond with riot gear, tear gas, sound canons, police dogs, concussion grenades, rubber bullets, pepper balls, wooden bullets, beanbag rounds, tasers, pepper spray, and armored vehicles. Unrest occurred continuously for weeks in August, and sporadically through December, with nearly daily protests throughout the period and rioting following the non-indictment announcement on November 24. Unrest again occurred on the one year anniversary in August 2015, with dozens of arrests.
• 2014 – St. Louis, Missouri – October 8, police vehicle windows broken as rage at the killing of Vonderrit Myers Jr. Protests continued for days afterward, during the nearby and ongoing Ferguson Unrest.
• 2014 – New York, New York, and Berkeley, California – After prosecutors and a grand jury refused to indict a police officer in the death of Eric Garner, protests erupted in New York City and other cities.
• 2014 Oakland riots, November–December, A series of riots and civil disturbances that took place in Oakland and the surrounding area, in reaction to the events involving the Shooting of Michael Brown and later, the death of Eric Garner, Oakland, California
• 2014 – Berkeley, Missouri, December 23–24. Antonio Martin is shot to death by police in a St. Louis suburb nearby to Ferguson, leading to violent conflict with police, and looting.
• 2015 – 2015 Baltimore protests, April 25–28. Days of protests break out following the death of Freddie Gray while in police custody. 34 people are arrested and 15 Officers injured after rioting and looting break out. Gray's funeral was held on April 27 and followed by further protests and looting. Governor Hogan had preemptively activated the Maryland National Guard, while the Maryland State Police had activated at least 500 officers.
• 2015 – St. Louis, Missouri, August 19. Conflict with police following fatal shooting by St. Louis police officers of black teenager Mansur Ball-Bey leads to deployment of tear gas then burned car, buildings, and looting. Protests continue in subsequent days with tensions remaining high.
• 2016 – Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, January–February 2016. 1 killed and several dozen arrested at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, Oregon.
• 2016 – 2016 Donald Trump Chicago rally protest, March 11. Five people arrested and two police officers injured during a demonstration at the UIC Pavilion.
• 2016 – Democracy Spring rally in April. March to Washington D.C. and sit-ins lead to arrests.
• 2016 – 2016 Sacramento riot, June 26, A confrontation between white nationalists and left-wing counter protesters at the California State Capitol. Ten people were hospitalized for stabbing and laceration wounds.
• 2016 – Widespread protests erupt in response to two deaths at the hands of police, the Shooting of Alton Sterling and shooting of Philando Castile. At least 261 people were arrested in protests in New York City, Chicago, St. Paul, Baton Rouge, and other cities.
• 2016 – 2016 Milwaukee riots, Sherman Park, August 13–15. Milwaukee, Wisconsin, sparked by the fatal police shooting of 23-year-old Sylville Smith.
• 2016 – 2016 Charlotte riot, September 20–21, Protests and riots break out in response to the shooting of Keith Lamont Scott by a Charlotte police officer.
• 2016 – Dakota Access Pipeline protests, 411 protesters arrested. Multiple skirmishes with police, with vehicles, hay bales, and tires set on fire.

 

[Birdstrike]

I’m coming to the point where I’m inclined to agree.... but.... isn’t that also kind of like a parent saying “fine kid, you can play video games and eat ice cream all day, just please be quiet and stop throwing your tantrum”

You guys are already getting sucked in. The propaganda is working as intended. Your focus is on the now, the "narrative" that "Trump = riots" and "Biden = calm." See the list of the tremendous amount of riots, civil unrest and police killing DURING Biden's tenure, is my previous post.

You all have already forgotten Ferguson riots, St Louis riots, Michael Brown, Freddie Gray, Eric Garner, Baltimore riots, killing of Masur Ball-Bey, Philando Castile killing, Alton Sterling Milwaukee riots, Keith Lamont Scott killing, Occupy Wall Street? It's too many to list.

ALL DURING BIDEN

 

[Torsion]

You guys are already getting sucked in. The propaganda is working as intended. Your focus is on the now, the "narrative" that "Trump = riots" and "Biden = calm." See the list of the tremendous amount of riots, civil unrest and police killing DURING Biden's tenure, is my previous post.

I view Biden as the candidate who is not a bumbling, narcissistic fool who has made enemies out of a great number of widely respected statesmen with which he has worked closely. It is beyond obvious that Trump exhibits poor leadership, is disinterested in policy and only interested in self-aggrandizement. That for me, is more than enough to vote for the other guy, especially if the other guy is a known quantity moderate Democrat. I normally have voted red but will not do so this time around.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Looking at my records,
Before Trump, I paid about 22% of my gross income in federal income tax
After Trump, I paid about 14%.

Huge difference

Then I moved to an S-Corp for 2019, and I paid 17% of my gross income in federal tax
It was explained to me that I made more than the QBI limit and thus it was phased out.
That SUCKED
I always thought you could save money with an S-Corp, but alas was not the case for me.

So now I'm purposely working a little less, to make about 50K less, so I can get more of a tax break.


I suspect that our taxes are going to go up in the next 2-4 years no matter who we have for president, although it might come sooner and more swiftly if a democrat gets elected. In fact it probably should too. Unless we can grow our economy at a much higher percentage than what we had pre-COVID. The two ways we paid for all government spending post WW2 was the high tax rates and by growing the economy.

If we could endlessly give out money for free to corporations and watch rich people become filthy rich without imposing new taxes, then we have been going at this all wrong for the past 50 years. We should just give people money from the govt.

My taxes were less than 5k different

 

[thegenius]

My taxes were less than 5k different

Wow.
2017 vs 2018
My difference in gross income was 2K,
my difference in AGI was 1K

and the difference in Total Tax paid was almost 31K.

My analysis showed the difference was 2 things: 1) lower tax rates and brackets, and 2) QBI, which is available to S-Corps and LLC's, and sole-proprietors. I am a sole proprietor and get 1099s. QBI accounted for a big chunk of that 31K difference.

I suspect our tax profiles and designations are different.

 

[Lawpy]

NY is considering reimposing lockdowns and restrictions because some young dudes in NYC can't follow social distancing 🙁

 

[Birdstrike]

My taxes were less than 5k different

Mine were $10-$12K less, if I'm remembering correctly.

 

[RustedFox]

I saved so much money on taxes that I "skipped" my Q1 estimate, telling the IRS to "keep the change".

 

[GeneralVeers]

I saved about 20K in taxes. Those who think we will return to the Obama rates are delusional. We will likely see greater taxes on the evil 1% (many of us) in order to pay for social justice programs. The Democrats have stated goals of 70, 80 or even 90% top income tax rates.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Biden winning wouldn't calm anyone down. Riots, civil unrest and police killings was much greater, not less during Biden's time in power. You already forgot St. Louis, Ferguson, too many police killings to name on his watch, not to mention Occupy Wall street?

List of riots, civil unrest and police killings during Biden's Vice Presidency:

How about a list of the number of times that Trump has been racist or dog whistled to white supremacists?

If you honestly think that riots and civil unrest were "much greater" around the time of Ferguson compared to now than there is little point in continuing a conversation on here (not that facts have made a difference in a number of your terrible takes). There are millions of people around the globe protesting and it has continued for weeks. It isn't even close in volume or intensity.

I just can't believe some of the stuff that gets echoed around here by the same 3-4 people. Railing against CNN, but never once posting against some of Fox New's ludicrous "reporting". Nevermind that no one here seems the least bit attached or defensive of CNN; it is clearly just a straw man to call out "liberals". The fact that only a small percentage of people can handle the fact that it is OK to have conservative political beliefs and NOT support Trump is baffling. It has led to lots of smart people ignoring facts and truths and the opinions of dozens of republicans who were "respected" and "good men" up until they spoke out against a racist, misogynistic egomaniac.

As an aside, it is so exhausting to intubate 3 patients in one shift with COVID and then be told on here (by someone who doesn't work ED shifts) that what the numbers are saying and what I am seeing "isn't really that different than before" or from another person that it "isn't a big deal because it is just old people in nursing homes dying". What is the number of deaths we have to reach in the US in order for COVID-19 to be a big deal?

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

If Biden knew the answers and or secrets to fix this country and it’s economy... how come he never shared them with Obama lol‍♂️?!

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Wow.
2017 vs 2018
My difference in gross income was 2K,
my difference in AGI was 1K

and the difference in Total Tax paid was almost 31K.

My analysis showed the difference was 2 things: 1) lower tax rates and brackets, and 2) QBI, which is available to S-Corps and LLC's, and sole-proprietors. I am a sole proprietor and get 1099s. QBI accounted for a big chunk of that 31K difference.

I suspect our tax profiles and designations are different.

Yep, pure W2 here. And I'd wager that my IM wife and I together made less than a solid majority of y'all here.

 

[deleted480308]

I view Biden as the candidate who is not a bumbling, narcissistic fool who has made enemies out of a great number of widely respected statesmen with which he has worked closely. It is beyond obvious that Trump exhibits poor leadership, is disinterested in policy and only interested in self-aggrandizement. That for me, is more than enough to vote for the other guy, especially if the other guy is a known quantity moderate Democrat. I normally have voted red but will not do so this time around.

Biden is also bumbling, to the point that I actually question his capacity to stay a “known quantity” as that requires full access to your faculties.

I’m all for disliking trump, just maybe be a little more objective about the options

 

[Birdstrike]

Biden is also bumbling, to the point that I actually question his capacity to stay a “known quantity” as that requires full access to your faculties.

I’m all for disliking trump, just maybe be a little more objective about the options

Anyone that thinks Biden is more lucid than Trump, hasn't watched video of him lately. There's a reason they're hiding him in a basement and it's not due to Coronavirus. Trump says what he means, knows exactly what he saying, and sometime offends the **** out of people. Biden doesn't know what the **** he's saying, at all.

Biden fans, start watching video of the guy. I know it won't changed your vote because you're ride-or-die for the #resistance and you think Trump's a Nazi and all that. Fine. Cool. But realize the wishy washy undecided people in the middle who decide who decide elections are going to notice Biden comes across as someone pulled off the injured reserve from a Long Term Care facility. Will they choose the Devil They Know, or the Devil The Don't Know (Anymore)? I don't know. But the debates will be interesting, to say the least.

 

[deleted480308]

Anyone that thinks Biden is more lucid than Trump, hasn't watched video of him lately. There's a reason they're hiding him in a basement and it's not due to Coronavirus. Trump says what he means, knows exactly what he saying, and sometime offends the **** out of people. Biden doesn't know what the **** he's saying, at all.

Biden fans, start watching video of the guy. I know it won't changed your vote because you're ride-or-die for the #resistance and you think Trump's a Nazi and all that. Fine. Cool. But realize the wishy washy undecided people in the middle who decide who decide elections are going to notice Biden comes across as someone pulled off the injured reserve from a Long Term Care facility. Will they choose the Devil They Know, or the Devil The Don't Know (Anymore)? I don't know. But the debates will be interesting, to say the least.

It’s gonna look like abuse

 

[Birdstrike]

It’s gonna look like abuse

Day after debates,

CNN: "Trump Commits Elder Abuse on Live TV, Worse Than Watergate."
MSNBC: "The walls are closing in."

 

[Torsion]

Anyone that thinks Biden is more lucid than Trump, hasn't watched video of him lately. There's a reason they're hiding him in a basement and it's not due to Coronavirus. Trump says what he means, knows exactly what he saying, and sometime offends the **** out of people. Biden doesn't know what the **** he's saying, at all.

Biden may not be the person he was 10-20 years ago but he's still got enough of his faculties to listen to experts and make sound policy choices, something I'm not sure Trump has ever been capable of. Biden's speech in Philadelphia wasn't the best or cleanest speech I've ever heard but it was better than a lot of Trump's attempts at public speaking.

I find it absurd that you think Trump knows exactly what he is saying. He states that he has a natural aptitude for medical science and then goes out and talks about bathing the lungs with disinfectant and "if we stop testing right now, we'd have very few cases". that demonstrates both poor education and magical thinking. The combination of those elements with his pathologic narcissism is dangerous.

 

[deleted480308]

Biden may not be the person he was 10-20 years ago but he's still got enough of his faculties to listen to experts and make sound policy choices, something I'm not sure Trump has ever been capable of. Biden's speech in Philadelphia wasn't the best or cleanest speech I've ever heard but it was better than a lot of Trump's attempts at public speaking.

I find it absurd that you think Trump knows exactly what he is saying. He states that he has a natural aptitude for medical science and then goes out and talks about bathing the lungs with disinfectant and "if we stop testing right now, we'd have very few cases". that demonstrates both poor education and magical thinking. The combination of those elements with his pathologic narcissism is dangerous.

I think there is a difference between thinking trump is right and thinking trump knows what he is saying.

 

[Birdstrike]

Biden may not be the person he was 10-20 years ago but he's still got enough of his faculties to listen to experts and make sound policy choices, something I'm not sure Trump has ever been capable of. Biden's speech in Philadelphia wasn't the best or cleanest speech I've ever heard but it was better than a lot of Trump's attempts at public speaking.

I find it absurd that you think Trump knows exactly what he is saying. He states that he has a natural aptitude for medical science and then goes out and talks about bathing the lungs with disinfectant and "if we stop testing right now, we'd have very few cases". that demonstrates both poor education and magical thinking. The combination of those elements with his pathologic narcissism is dangerous.

You're trying to engage me in a fight about Biden and Trump. I have no interest. You and I won't change our minds or decide the election. My post was primarily about how undecided people in the middle, ie, the people who pick the President, might perceive the situation. I'm not going to engage in what I think or what you think about Trump or Biden. Both matter zero. What the undecided people in the middle think, matters. If you want to engage on that, and if you're able to look beyond what you think and how I might disagree, I'm game. But if you're not interested in trying to analyze what the undecided people in the middle think, ie, the only people who's views matter in Presidential elections, I'm not interested.

Oh, yeah. And the coronavirus lock-down.

 

[Torsion]

I think there is a difference between thinking trump is right and thinking trump knows what he is saying.

I don't know. A statement like " if we stop testing right now, we'd have very few cases" is laughably irrational. It is a tacit endorsement of burying your head in the sand. It really is quite extraordinary for arguably the most powerful person on earth to have said such a thing. I don't know whether it would be better if he were ignorant of how ridiculous he sounds or whether he knows it was absurd and irrational and said it anyway. Neither are good.

You're trying to engage me in a fight about Biden and Trump. I have no interest. You and I won't change our minds or decide the election. My post was primarily about how undecided people in the middle, ie, the people who pick the President, might perceive the situation. I'm not going to engage in what I think or what you think about Trump or Biden. Both matter zero. What the undecided people in the middle think, matters.

I consider myself someone in the middle. I've always been registered unaffiliated but have generally voted for Republicans. I have never been a fan of Trump as a political candidate ever since he launched his political career off of a racist conspiracy theory than our sitting president was African. Since then he has proven that he is taken with crackpot conspiracy theories, someone of poor moral character, and someone completely reliant on sycophants and yes-men. Despite all of that, I was actually prepared for the possibility of voting for him when Bernie Sanders was still a viable candidate for the Dems. But then the pandemic happened, and throughout the pandemic his deficiencies have been completely laid out for the world to see. His response to the protests did not help either. For me also, the fact that many of his most respected advisors have left the administration and are now speaking out against him says volumes about his ability to lead this country.

That is the opinion of this swing voter, here. I think this opinion fits your bill, unless what you really meant was "what do old blue collar whites think?"

 

[Birdstrike]

I consider myself someone in the middle.

You've decided, which means you're no longer in the middle.

 

[GeneralVeers]

I think for the "middle people" safety, jobs, and order are going to be very important. A suburban Mom who isn't political might see on the news burning businesses and violence a few blocks from her and vote based on that. Anyone who is a strong supporter of BLM is already not going to vote Trump, and likewise anyone who is against the protests will likely vote for him.

Unfortunately the "middle" only represents 3-5% of the US electorate these days as we are so closely split down partisan lines. I've always thought of the undecideds as low-information voters. There's a pretty clear contrast in political ideology and policy proposals, which should make deciding relatively easy.

 

[Torsion]

You've decided, which means you're no longer in the middle.

Everyone eventually decides or they don't vote at all. At this point both Trump and Biden are known quantities in terms of who they are and what they stand for. We have seen Trump's approach to multiple national crises of different flavors. There are few hypotheticals left. I don't believe the debate stage this Fall is going to be changing a lot of minds.

 

[Birdstrike]

Back on a coronavirus note, I decided to get tested for COVID-19 antibodies. I'm negative. Oh well. Has anyone tested positive for antibodies on here, during this "lock-down"?

 

[Birdstrike]

Everyone eventually decides or they don't vote at all. At this point both Trump and Biden are known quantities in terms of who they are and what they stand for. We have seen Trump's approach to multiple national crises of different flavors. There are few hypotheticals left. I don't believe the debate stage this Fall is going to be changing a lot of minds.

If neither the decided's nor the undecided's are changing their minds and no new information to be gained, then everyone's locked in, and there's no point in debating the issue. To do so, is then a total waste of time.

 

[GeneralVeers]

If neither the decided's nor the undecided's are changing their minds and no new information to be gained, then everyone's locked in, and there's no point in debating the issue. To do so, is then a total waste of time.

It's not about changing minds. It's about getting your base to turn out and vote, while suppressing the opposing candidate's. In 2016, Trump's base turned out in higher numbers in the supposedly safe Democrat states than was expected. On the other end, Black voters did not turn out for Hillary in the same numbers as Obama, so her numbers were worse than expected. It was enough of an effect to turn MI, WI, PA, and almost MN.

They cynical part of me thinks that some aspect of BLM is about turning out that demographic for the election. I suspect it may do the opposite of what's intended.....

 

[Birdstrike]

My state was last to "lock-down" and first to start reopening. We're in the news as a cautionary example because "Cases are going up!" Our reopening started 6 weeks ago and mobility data started rising 8 weeks ago; plenty enough time for transmission, incubation to progress to infection and death. Positive cases have quadrupled in the past 5 weeks but deaths have been cut in half. Why?


Graph 1-Cases

Graph 2-Deaths

cc: @VA Hopeful Dr

 

[WilcoWorld]

It's not about changing minds. It's about getting your base to turn out and vote, while suppressing the opposing candidate's.

I'm with you for the first part - the way to win is to get people who stayed home to show up, not to sway "undecideds".

But I do not at all agree with suppressing the opposition. Republican's recent attempts at this are pretty well known. While I'm not familiar with Democratic-led voter suppression efforts, I'm not so naive to presume it's impossible. Are you able to provide any evidence of specific examples?

 

[thegenius]

My state was last to "lock-down" and first to start reopening. We're in the news as a cautionary example because "Cases are going up!" Our reopening started 6 weeks ago and mobility data started rising 8 weeks ago; plenty enough time for transmission, incubation to progress to infection and death. Positive cases have quadrupled in the past 5 weeks but deaths have been cut in half. Why?


Graph 1-Cases
View attachment 310133


Graph 2-Deaths

View attachment 310134

cc: @VA Hopeful Dr

There can be a lag of months. Coronavirus was probably in the US in January, and we didn't see a peak until April in most places.

And who the **** cares anymore? The audience for this kind of stuff is dwindling. The only thing that is somewhat surprising is Atlanta, a very big US city, hasn't seen an onslaught of cases like other big cities have. But again, who the **** cares.

 

[Birdstrike]

And who the **** cares anymore? ... But again, who the **** cares.

Amen. **** it.


"Knock, knock, knockin' on ...heaven's door..."

 

[thegenius]

Amen. **** it


"Knock, knock, knockin' on ...heaven's door..."

Ah that’s a good way to type that swear word.

I was listening to CNN the other day and almost puked. I can tolerate Anderson cooper, i don’t particularly like cuomo for some reason, and I really don’t like lemon. lemon is so damn patronizing, he uses an indignant patronizing tone if that makes sense. I turned it off.

I don’t like Fox, I can’t watch CNN, I cant even come to certain threads on this board to learn about Covid or hear about people’s experiences. Everywhere I turn there are people saying “You are right. You are wrong.” It’s so tiresome to hear and read people editorialize on topics about anything that is being mentioned.

There is constant bashing on this particular thread. There is bashing in most news outlets. There is bashing in print. I’m so sick of the superiority complex that is seemingly so pervasive in all aspects of our lives.

It’s great that coronavirus hasn’t hit your state like it has hit other states and regions. Instead of us expressing happiness at this fact, it’s being used as a tool to bash others into making them feel bad and trying to show who is right and wrong.

Alright I’m done, once again, with this thread. Had to rant a little. I’ll probably see ya in a few weeks.